#108 Benito Cordova; Sc108; Interview with Benito Cordova, Part 1

You You You You You

You You You Know what this has been a long time and coming it really is very

important I think so I think so you know it's not a job for me You You You You You You You You You You You word, totally. Okay, let's start off with the general question. What is an Isaro? An Isaro is a very interesting person.

Historically, An Isaro has referred to de -tribalized Indians, Indians that were captured and ransomed by the mission communities, select mission communities throughout the state just to name a few of them, Ave Q, Santo Tomaso Postal de Ave Q, Ojo Caliente, Tomé, Nira Albuquerque, Lahara. They came in into a mission and the missionary worked with the Indians to teach them how to become Hispanic. There were other types of Hinesaros, also Indians that came from Pueblos who internalized Catholicism and once they accepted Catholicism as opposed to compartmentalizing their religion,

they could no longer function in a traditional Pueblo and they came in to move to Hinesaro community. Hinesaros are living bridges between two cultures. Hinesaros are Indians that settled into permanent communities but they bridged two worlds, the Hispanic world and the Indian world. Hinesaros are bicultural people. Some Hinesaros after they left the mission moved to Pueblos such as Cochiti, Santo Domingo, and chose to focus on your Indian background. Bahinesaros are those rare individuals that are able to cross bridges, to cross a cultural bridge if they choose to be Indian one day, they can be Native American if they choose to be Hispanic, they can be that. So the real sense Hinesaros or cosmopolitan individuals

during the Spanish colonial period up to the present that have been able to be in the sense the world citizens of Native Americans. When you talk about Ransom, how did this work? Sorry, I'm a little bit. Let me make a point and then you ask me a question. In addition to the Hinesaros being a cultural bridge between the Hispanic and the Indian world, Hinesaros are also a cultural bridge between the Pueblo Indians and the Non -Pueblo Indians. I'm talking about Hinesaros were brought into Pueblos such as Taos where they were ransomed by the Spanish people during the Spanish colonial period and brought and settled in Indian communities in some cases. So it's important to remember

the Hinesaros are cultural bridges between two cultures, the Hispanic culture and the Native American culture, but they also bridge the Pueblo and the Non -Pueblo world. Okay, let's go to the Ransom thing. How did that work? Did the other tribes capture and then bring them to Taos for the trade fair? How did that system work? Sometimes we tend to romanticize the idea that before during the Spanish colonial period, the 17, 1800s, that the people that lived here lived in a very peaceful condition and they were living in the happily ever after a fantasy world. There was a lot of tension frequently. The nomadic tribes were in constant combat

with the settlements in the area, the Pueblo people, and Camanchis frequently came and raided. For example, Abikyu here, they would pick up people, take them off into the plains. Later on, people from New Mexico, mainly Hinesaros. Hinesaros are also, Hinesaros are Comancheros. Comancheros are Hinesaros that went out into the plains and dealt and traded with the Comanchis. When they came in contact with some of these people, they would barter and trade. Sometimes the barter and trade was in terms of human commodities. It was both ways. The Pueblos also would go out into the plains and capture people and bring them in here. It's not that there's good guys and bad guys. It was both ways. It was happening. People were raiding each other. That's the way of life at that time. And you can't say these are the good guys. These are the bad guys because that's the way it was at that

time. What would happen to these captives? Captives, the Hinesaros that had been ransomed were brought into select communities. Hinesaros communities, the Spanish referred to these communities as reductionists. Reduction was a community where an individual was placed in that community. And it went through a process of transculturalization. Big word, transculturalization means that Indians from diverse tribes were placed in a community and thought to be basically settled vecinos, vecinos meaning neighbors, citizens. And these individuals had to learn Spanish. They were Christianized. They learned the culture of Hispanic culture. And when they went through this process of transculturalization, something magical happened to these individuals.

We'll get to that as 1693. Okay. To pick up where we left off, you're talking about transculturation. The mission was a school where transculturalization took place. And Indians learned a different life way. They learned the Hispanic way of life. And when an individual is born in one culture and placed in another culture, something happens to that individual. It's like I've learned never to argue with a convert because a convert is always stronger in that religion than the person that is born in that religion. Not always, but usually. And that happens to Hinesa. Hinesa was ended up being defenders of the Hispanic way of life, the sedentary way of life. And they had no problems

going out into the plains to fight against, for example, the Camanchis, Cuerno Verde, Greenhorn, that they defeated in Pueblo, Colorado. In fact, one of the only two Native American plays that were ever produced in Yametzko, one was called those Camanchis. And the heroes of a play are the Hinesa Rose who went out and fought against Cuerno Verde. During the Comanche and the nomadic attacks, what role do the Hinesa Rose have in defending New Mexico? Hinesa Rose because of their fanaticism and dedication to the Hispanic way of life were placed in strategic communities. They were placed in buffer zones so that when the nomadic Indians came in to raid the places that they usually hid were places like Abicú, Ojo

Caliente. And the read a lot about the Pueblo auxiliary troops, was there an alliance between Hinesa Rose and Pueblo at this point? Another point that needs to be made is that frequently Hinesa Rose and Pueblo Indians were used as acceleries to go out and fight and defend against the Camanchi and the Plain Indians. The Hinesa Rose by being in settled communities in a sense, although they originally may have been Plain Indians, when they adopted a Hinesa Rue alive, they became Pueblo Indians and they very easily would get together under the direction of Nalcalde, or Teniente Alcalde and would go out to raid

the Camanchis with no problem at all because in their mind they were defending a way of life, a Hispanic way of life. Do the Pueblos recognize Hinesa Rose? The Pueblos, indeed to a degree Santa Clara and San Juan talk about Hinesa Rose, their concept of the Hinesa Rose is an Indian that a Pueblo Indian who had accepted Christianity to the point where he no longer could compartmentalize. I mean by compartmentalization, I mean that the Pueblo Indians through history were never really truly Catholics, Christians. They were Catholics for fees, they were Catholics when the missionary was around,

but the minute that the missionary was not there, they would revert back to the traditional religion. When a Pueblo Indian had problems with the Native American religion, then it was time for him to leave the Pueblo and merge in a Hinesa Rue community. That happened at Santa Clara, I believe that happened at San Juan, and to a large degree there's evidence that that happened at Pecos Pueblo also. When was, give me the site about the first Hinesa Rose recognized. The origin of Hinesa Rose in New Mexico, the earliest Hinesa Rose that appears in historical documents is around 1693 with the arrival of Diego de Vargas, and it's not until Diego de Vargas is in the zoning area that the very first mention of Hinesa Rose appears. So the first Hinesa Rose that we have in the history of New Mexico, 1693,

at the Pueblo at Zuni. Okay, did this practice of ransoming stop when the Americans took over? Another very interesting thing about the Hinesa Rose, the concept of ransoming or capturing Native Americans continued into the American period. During the days of Kit Carson, there were thousands of Navajos that were brought here into the Abicue, New Mexico area. In fact, Governor Wallace, the governor who wrote the famous novel Ben Hur had two Navajo captives that had been brought in and placed in his care. That brings up another component that needs to be mentioned also about the Hinesa Rose. Hinesa Rose were not always in community specifically for themselves. Sometimes when the missionary had problems with them, they were shipped

off to Santa Fe and placed in what the document is called de Posito, and I think that probably would be the counterpart of Penitentiary Prison. They would stay there for a period of six months to a year. After they were released, they were placed in families, quote, prominent Hispanic families. These families were responsible for teaching them and keeping the Hinesa Rose under their supervision so that the Hinesa Rose would learn to act like quote prominent Hispanics. And that tradition continued up into the American period. You find evidence of this in the documents where the Hinesa Rose appear in the census as domestic servants. And Indian captives that had been brought in were in Hispanic families and American families, Anglo families. Tell me about your grant, your great -grandmother. My linkage to the

Hinesa Rose goes back to... Right now? I trace my history of the Hinesa Rose to about 1860, 1870. My grandmother was a young girl when she was brought in. You're a great -grandmother, right? So I started again. You're not that old. Excuse me, grandma. I trace my Hinesa Rose roots to the 1860s, 1870s. When my great -grandmother, Maria Rita Córdoba, was purchased by a family near Abbeque of a little town called San Miguel de la Puente. A family Vicente Córdoba in Hironi,

Momantoia had just gotten married and Vicente Córdoba brought my grandmother, was about six or seven years old, to help his wife Hironi, Momantoia. She came in and was baptized, taught Spanish and the Spanish language and a little bit about the culture. And from those three ingredients, my grandmother emerged as a doña Rita. She became his fantasized by mastering those three elements. Great -grandmother. Did I say it again? Yeah. Excuse me, grandma. From the beginning, I trace my Hinesa Rose to the 1860s, 1870s, when a family near Abbeque, a Vicente Córdoba and Hironi Momantoia were

married shortly after the marriage. Vicente Córdoba purchased a young girl, was about six to eight years old. We don't really know her age. She came in and her job was to help his new bride around the household. These individuals at that time were called in Spanish Criallas. And in a sense, they were domestic servants. She learned the interesting thing about my grandmother is that she... Great -grandmother, started again, right through there. Okay. The interesting thing about my great -grandmother, Mariarita was that she was taught Spanish. She was baptized and she learned a little about the culture. And from mastering those three ingredients, my grandmother was referred to

by the local people of Abbeque as doña Rita. That meant that she was now a Hispanic citizen of Abbeque in New Mexico. He did it again. I did it again one one time. Well, that should work okay because you preface it all by saying you're great -grandmother. And then he says my grandmother. So as long as we're... Yeah, let's see. I guess we're rolling. Okay. Where did your great -grandmother come from? My grandmother... She's a great person. My great -grandmother was one of thousands of Navajo captives that were brought in and placed in Hineso communities and among the other citizens of New Mexico from 1860 to about 1870. Okay. Did you, your community,

lose your Indian traditions? Were that all wiped out in the process? A very interesting point about being Hineso is that Americans, when they came into New Mexico, they saw the Hineso. And at first appearance, they saw them as Mexicans. Hinesos have this ability to be two people. This is really apparent at Abbeque. During the feast day, Santo Tomás aposto, the feast day usually takes place the last weekend of November. It's a two -day feast. And on these two days, the visitor that comes to Abbeque is shocked because it's like going into a fantasy land. Individuals that the week before appeared to be Hispanic, Mexican Americans, suddenly done

all types of Indian regalia. They paint themselves all -I Indian. They bring out their tombees, their drums. They have a repertoire of Indian music that they bring out. They bring out Indian dancers which a week, two weeks in advance, they start to drill to prepare. I think we're getting a little bit more wet. I don't know, but my experience has been fantastic.

The interesting thing about the feast day of Abbeque was that the drums came out, the feathers came out, the Indian regalia came out, the pride in being Indian came out. For these two days, believe me, I was extremely proud of being a Native American. People came out and they did dances such as Ilnaniye. A few years ago, I was at Hemis Pueblo and I met the father of Josando. When I was introduced to him as a being from Abbeque, the famous anthropologist, Lofons Ortiz, was there with me. The father of Josando started to beat on the table, E -E -Naniye. That's probably the most important song at Abbeque. He referred to it as the Eagle

Dance. During the feast day, people from San Juan came to Abbeque and participated in the dances here. People from Santa Clara came and participated in the dances here. People from as far away as Taos, the Hikariya Apache Reservation came and participated here. Indeed, it was a two -way street. The people from Abbeque went to San Juan. My uncle, the person that taught me about the Indian dances, would go to San Juan and participated in some of the Kiwa Duins at San Juan Pueblo. Again, it was a bridge, the Hinesanos or bridges between the Hispanic community and the Indian Pueblos. Here you had individuals that in some days of the year were Hispanics and then in other days of the year, they chose to be Native Americans and we're proud of it and are proud of it to this day. Can you tell me about the mountain you see in the background?

I'm extremely honored to be filmed at this special place because the mountain behind me is known in Spanish as El Serro Perdonal and in English to the archaeologist as Flint Mountain. Archaeologists talk about this place because this mountain was a query for the Indians of this area. This is where they came to mind their obsidian. But the Hinesanos from Abbeque, this was a sacred mountain. In the 1760s, this mountain was a sacred shrine to the Turkey. And about 1764, when the missionary Fri Juan Jose Tolero from Abbeque discovered that the Hinesanos were from Abbeque were journeying to this mountain where they had sacred shrines. He brought the Alcalde from Santa Cruz de la Canela near Espanola and some soldiers.

And he came here with them and they exercised the entire mountain destroying all the shrines that the Hinesanos had to the Turkey. So in the sense that this mountain is a holy site for the Hinesanos nation. Okay, you talked about acceptance from the Pueblo peoples of Hinesanos. Do you have that same acceptance from hispanos? The thing about being a Hinesanos today is that there are many Hispanos and many Indians, many Pueblo Indians, that for some reason in history have chosen to forget their heritage. Some would deny that they are Indians,

that they are Hinesanos. And when Hispanos choose to deny their Indian heritage, very terrible things are happening to them psychologically. To deny your Hinesanos heritage is dangerous to your mental health and at this stage in the history of the Hinesanos, the Hinesanos people have to come forth and acknowledge their history. There are some historians that are upset about Hinesanos, such as myself, coming forth at this time and proclaiming their Hinesanos, their Hinesanos consciousness. It's been 200 years since you have been abandoning your Hinesanos heritage. And I think about the nation of Israel, the Jews that were thrown or picked up from Israel and removed for 2000 years came back and reinstated their country and their culture and their tradition and their religion. And I've come back

stronger than ever. The Hinesanos, at the most, we have been ignoring our heritage, our history for 200 years. But in the sense, the fact that we do not have much of a written history, much of a publicly acknowledged culture is a real advantage to being in Hinesanos, because that means that we can recreate our own history, our own culture. So in that sense, we are blessed above probably other Native Americans that have a lot of cultural baggage to contend with. Thank you very much.

Thank you.