New Mexico in Focus; #204; The Last Conquistador; Part 1

You Spanish conquisted our dawn one day and yacht day is one of the most controversial figures in the history of the Southwest. In addition to that on yacht there's also the subject of a controversial and colossal statue

that now calls El Paso home. That statue and the emotions it evokes is in turn the subject of a new national PBS documentary. Coming up on the Mexico and focus insights and opinions on the impact of the film and the man they call the last conquistador. That documentary is called the last conquistador. It's part of the national PBS documentary series Point of View. While the film focuses on a piece of art in El Paso and yacht day's impact reverberates today throughout the land of enchantment. Because of our state's complicated history we thought it was important to further the discussion on many of the questions raised in this documentary and on the statue itself. So we hosted a screening of the last conquistador right here in our studio. We followed that up with a discussion with the audience and a panel which included the filmmaker and we actually had a

visit from the artist himself. This week on the Mexico Focus we bring you some of that discussion along with the debate over the role of public art and our society. But first a taste of the movie the last conquistador and the emotions it evokes. If they're represented evil in full knowledge if they understand it and that's the dark side and something is wrong here something is dreadfully wrong. He is my hero. I can understand the Indians being upset but we need to look at

what he truly truly accomplished in the this way ahead of his time. I was really torn in what to do this was truly one of the hardest decisions one of the most controversial decisions that I certainly made on my four years as as a city counsellor everybody's been screwed let's face it when you go back far enough what people hasn't been by some other people it would seem to be the nature of of our species wouldn't it. He opened a floodgate he was a visionary and he was very tenacious what is wrong with being a visionary what

is wrong with wanting to improve the world. We always see ourselves as bears of good fruit and that fruit is poised into other people. Why did you make the movie and what was your goal in making it? I guess you know when I heard that well I should say we because I made the film with Christine Ibadah who's not here tonight but she's your producing partner. Yeah exactly and when we heard about the statue I think we had very complicated feelings about the whole thing. Being Mexican American we see ourselves as having a part Native American ancestry in part European ancestry and so when we looked at the statue we could clearly see that while Onyate may have done some pretty amazing things in terms of exploration there is really in some ways he also

represents some of the darkest aspects of the human spirit and while he did bring Hispanic culture to North America he also brought genocide and we felt that it was important to recognize everything in its totality and when we looked at El Paso in particular and the Southwest in general what we saw was a kind of a geography that was fractured by misunderstanding. What we saw was a land divided the end of the day I would hope that somebody somebody who watches this film people out in the audience would arise and say you know what you know you know you know enough of this divisiveness let's recognize that that the folks at Akama are our brothers and sisters and that we are all

children of God if you will and that we all have to share this land and what can we do to have a little compassion for one another and try to span those divides of difference and build new connections for positive change and understanding. Myrice I would imagine you you share that sentiment that somehow this film could be a part of the healing that might take place. That was my hope sure I mean when I started working on this project I had the highest hopes that it would bring people of different cultures and races together and it was very disheartening to see that sometimes it worked but most times it didn't and as I saw the the film being made I could see that it was at times it was it was a documentary about John Hauser and his trials and tribulations about making a statue that is very offensive to many people. It

just seemed as if Hauser John Hauser was getting off the hook. I believe that John Hauser has a responsibility to accept this statue for what it is and his decision to make it it falls on his shoulders. Where do you think we need to go to get to a place of healing from what you just heard from Myrice and what you saw in the film? What's the next step that has to happen in your mind? I do want to say first and thank Myrice for and in all the individuals who actually involved in trying to address this issue not just place a counterpoint but actually trying to stop this from happening because that is a part of a larger movement and it's not just the individuals who are part of that movement now in a contemporary sense but it is because of a connection to survival that they came even from the Pueblo Revolt understanding that the

reason why Indigenous peoples live in this landscape is because of the ability to fight back and to address that and to stand up for these issues and so I commend you and everyone else that participated in that movement. In terms of history I do want to take up one point that John brought up the statue actually for me represents an extension not just of colonial violence across the landscape but really a reflection it seems that that happened in the early 20th century where this mythology was developed around who New Mexicans were not just based on a Spanish heritage fantasy which created a static image of individuals really that divided Spanish Indian as if they were museum pieces right static unchanging and that mythology is

been detrimental to understanding who we are. The other thing that happened in the early 20th century not just a focus on a static identity but sort of a concerted effort to focus on an image of a conquistador representing that identity so this statue represents that extension from the early 20th century that developed that and really to understand who onyate was is to look at some of the documents that are actually colonial documents themselves written by the Spaniards themselves which reveal the testimonies of individuals following his expulsion from New Mexico you actually trace that it's not just it's not just at that moment in time indigenous people who were certainly affected deeply affected Acoma Pueblo in particular or the two Hopi people who left without hands from that particular moment the

Acoma massacre at that moment so not just the indigenous people were who were affected by the colonial violence but the colonists themselves actually began to complain about Juan de Onyate as did the the clerics and the military and and if we are truly in the document the history let's pull out that let's pull out not just the documents that just point to who onyate was but the oral histories that continue to sustain people across this landscape they really reveal who they are a monument can't do that Professor Montoya what do you have to add to that there's been a lot here so far anything you wanted to pick up on well first of all let me thank John for for this narrative because I think that it gives us a way of talking about some hard subjects but let me

thank mr. Chino for the struggle that he led because I completely agree that is a struggle that vindicates rights and principles for all of us it may be expressed through the histories and the pain of a particular people of the Acoma people but it's really about all of us it's about humanity and let me say something that might be misunderstood but I hope it isn't I don't want to be here without saying sorry that as I am part of that ancestry that colonial ancestry I participate in relations of power and privilege and to the extent that

I or my family or particularly my children and children's children will benefit from that colonial history I am sorry now I don't believe in apologies that are merely expressed I think that the only way that we make up is by committing ourselves to change and I think we commit ourselves to change by the stories that we tell and I think that that monument is a story about race and it is a story about race because about what it doesn't say and what we need to do is we need to grasp it and claim it so that we can retell the story so that we can say this is what it says and it says nothing about what I want to

say about my presence in this land it is the antithesis of the story that I want to claim Professor Cruz would like to add to that the statute is really about subordination and the need to reject subordination I mean just in terms of its size it's larger than life it's of a figure who came into this land and destroyed a way of life trampled on a way of knowledge and brought a lot of destruction and yet here we have a statute that is as I said it's larger than life it's a bronze statute that dwarfs people and so to me that speaks of subordination it speaks about the subordination of indigenous people and it's

like that that story that's not told but there's a story that is told and then there's the history that's not told there's a history that is the history of events and this is the way that things transpired these are important the important things that happen these are the important people involved and then there is the philosophy of history why these things happened why the why things happen that the way the way that they did why things are as a way they are today that's not told and so I think that both the film and the statute really evoke a lot of there's a lot of I guess potential there in terms of where where we go from there because of what they symbolize what they bring forward what they evoke for me I guess the point of the film in a lot of ways is something completely different from what everybody here has been speaking

about which is how all of us and I mean all of us engage from time to time in a kind of willful blindness that is to say in the film John Hauser begins to lose his sight well actually from the beginning of the film he didn't have any sight because he could not see the social implications of his work that would be down the road right so he was in a sense kind of you know blind to the social implications of the work but as his eyesight begins to fail it is in his blindness that he is beginning to have clarity and beginning to have vision and he remarks in the film that in on Yacht base time they were unaware of the you know that they that they had an inability to recognize the crimes that they were committing on some level and I would argue that all of us engage in that willful blindness from time to time and that it's all too human my reflection on

this film here is that it's very appalling Hauser immortalizes himself in this film forget the ending and the general side and the atrocities of 1540 1598 I feel very hurt very painful to witness this film the film itself what I see the impact that he has is a memory and recall as I said here listen to you and looking at the film first it is first the work can cause us daughters it's a wrong connotation period he reminds me of a German Hitler he reminds of a Japan he reminds me of the past world history who encroaches in other countries but remember on Yacht they never colonized my people I want that to

be the record historians of this state and nation have missed a boat this film it's really to me I want to be honest with you it really didn't attract me too well I'm been honest with you he bothers me to accept that film I trust you you made it you may we may well intentions as far as the guy who designed the horse and everything else he made a good profit I'm sure he made a lot of money I view this this this bronze the statue of Don Juan de Onyate as an as a reaffirmation of European colonialism presented in a proposed positive manner and and the reason that I think that it takes on a larger than life concept so to speak is simply because of the sheer enormity of it because and I'll just say this art is power art is history art is glory art is immortality

and so all those people when we are all dead and gone that statue is still going to be there and who's going to interpret that to my children and grandchildren and and many of yours will it be again a reaffirmation of colonialism or will it be an interpretation of someone who brought new themes the the metal implements that are used different foods different manners of doing things Catholicism and so this interpretation in the future is going to be what I'm concerned about and I'll just leave all of you with these last words I jotted them down quite quickly we the Pueblo people have always been here and we will be here forever the Pueblo resistance continues thank you I noticed in the film that there is a lot of non-native people historians recounting the

native perspective of what happened between Onyate's encounters I was wondering if it was your decision to make the film portray people in that perspective or did you just not have enough time to find native people to recount history that's a good question I kind of two answers the first one is is that I knew that that the film would probably be attacked by people who are very conservative and have a pro Spanish view of history and so the way to counteract that was to use historians who would speak against that history but who have conservative credentials okay so that's part of a strategic move that I use the other thing is this one of the one of the historians I thought she was native American I mean I'd never met her a Roxanne Dunbar Ortiz I was

under the impression that she actually that she lived up here and was from one of the Pueblos but then it turned out that she came in from California and then when I met her I was like oh because you know Ortiz and I thought you know and so I was actually I thought she was gonna be that boy and then you know it didn't really turn out that way so I you know we made an effort and we consulted with folks actually from Okama and but we got Roxanne and it wasn't quite so I think it was kind of a mix-up situation but how did this film hit you as a as a as a document of obviously the artist that made the piece but of history that what happened on the purple how did it hit you it's it's really a shock because it's especially with my generation we don't really hear too much of our history and it's kind of lost and we actually don't hear about until we actually get into the university which is where I first learned and

started researching my own interest in the 1680 Pueblos revolt I didn't even hear of that era until I was in high school so I don't think necessarily that this film was bad in a way that I think that most people will probably older than me probably think of it I think it's actually pretty good because it starts bringing to light things that were never talked before or maybe we're suppressed for some some reason that my generation has no cool about I think that the people on this panel if it's about reconciliation and healing that that these things need to be talked about and more things need to be made like this but and and I asked that's why I asked the question about the director you know I think that yes you choose conservative historians but in order to validate our side of the story you have to put us in there too you have to put our conservative historians to we also have our own oral

historians that do just as much validation as any non-native person so that's just what I like to say one of the things that's been a big part of our generation I'll be 50 in a couple of months and we go we've gone through this a lot of different races here and I or even in my history of my life here is an apology would that mean something to you? No because well from my perspective and just speaking for my own thoughts is I don't really don't think apologies from people today would it ever really have an effect I think just like this film showing you know our side of the story having our own voice and and having some ways of empowering our people I don't think really apologies because the people today didn't didn't do anything to us their ancestors may have but they didn't do anything and for them to say my apology from them would say that they did something to me which is not what you know we're here for but I do think

that instead of an apology is to have you know the same voice the same I guess perspective our side being told in that for me that'd be enough I do want to commend John as well for trying to focus on on this story the narrative that is told very powerfully and large and in El Paso in a different way because children from whatever community they're coming from Mexico El Paso itself looking up at that monument we'll see one story Margaret is absolutely right in terms of what that narrative tells and to begin to say that there are counter stories opposite stories that begins to complicate that narrative a lot more and and that is completely necessary we have someone who was just arrived and we're very grateful John Hauser the artist up right up here if you would right on that mark and you can spin around okay there you go thank

you for coming well I appreciate being here and I'm sorry I apologize for coming so late and I apologize to everybody for the stir that the monument is created but I would like to I preach and I have appreciated being able to hear their comments so anyway I will be glad to talk to people about it I've got a couple questions and I'd like to hear from you just again to react to some of the things that you heard now that you've had a chance to hear a little bit of it there has been before you got here it's a little bit of talk about the size and we know you've heard this before that it's problematic for some people in symbolic of power male dominance oppression when you approach this from a size standpoint what what was in your mind to make it the size that it was it was quite by accident actually I had always always been intrigued with that of making a big horse and that's an opportunity that really comes along to an artist but it's a real challenge and this was a project that I conceived myself and it's it's much greater than just one monument it it consists of 12 different monuments and it consists of 400 years of history and for

each one of these periods there are different individuals that have been selected that I propose there are four Native Americans there are two anglers there are two blacks there are four Mexicans and three Spaniards which we and we also try to make it representative in terms of gender so anyway I want to get that straight because this is one context within a context that we're looking at today as far as the size goes you know I what gentleman recently spoke and he said art has power I always doubted that I always thought that was a conceit that that people like to believe but I kind of doubted it but when this horse is done I begin to see that art does have a power it has a power of subjectivity because each person it comes to it was impressed by the size of it and they will bring to it what their own memories what their own upbringing and traditions are within them you know that's what that's how they reflected so there are many different ways to view the this monument just

is there are many different ways to view history and I'd like also also to say that maybe surprised to some of you but I have spent most of my life living among Native American people I spent seven years back on the Cherokee innovation in North Carolina and I've lived with the Papagos and the Apaches and I've spent time with the Lachandones and the Tautomata and the City and also down with the Ashwar in Ecuador and I've and I have never just gone into the camera and and and taken pictures because my goal was always to be with the people to to live with them and get to know them so I could interpret them not as Indians not as Native Americans or whatever but as as fellow members of the human race that makes a question if spending a lot of time with indigenous folks do you feel you missed the mark by the Sanyate statue and and some of the feelings it would invoke shouldn't you have internalized or understood early on how problematic that would have been if

you've been around Native folks so much let me say that when I when I began this project I had a new vision for my new mental art and I and I because I they talk about you know put a putting somebody up on a pedestal you know and and make and glorifying them as a hero and so on I thought well who can be glorified as heroes these days most of the generals east down there killed thousands you know most of the presidents you see pointing out there have also ordered millions of young people to the death you know and we live in a world that's in a real mess today you know every seven seconds as a child that dies of starvation all these things have gone through my mind so what but what I wanted to wanted to use that I wanted to show with these monuments I wanted I wanted to call people's attention to history and I wanted to put these up and say look at this and find out about it read it and study it and realize what happened and and unfortunately because of the controversy and the reaction of city council and so on they decided to take the name off and also to remove the history and I think that's one of the biggest mistakes they could have

made because I can see even tonight and other places I've been other interviews that have had recently that is that monument that is already stimulated so much discussion and so much and so much greater comprehension of that period than what than ever existed before when when the when the controversy began to develop I was concerned about it and I was surprised that it was it was it was it was steamrolled the way it did but I wrote a letter to Manipino and he always seemed very friendly to me and I was who is Manipino Manipino he's a he's a representative acting member of Akamo Pedro and I think he's a friend of Maris Chino and I said dear Mani attached as the 12 travelers historical text we're proposing for one side of the base this was in May 19th about a year before the monument was installed it reflects the original 12 travelers concept with its focus on the history of the era we began this text a number of years ago in consultation with professional historians and abandoned it only after the city centered its name I would greatly appreciate it if you would look over it

look it over from your perspective and freely make any suggestions or comments we would like to propose that Akamo Pedro consider composing a text of similar length relating the Oniate incident according to their oral history which could also be placed on one side of the base and at beneath this text the 3x5 foot bronze plaque model and sculptural low relief be installed depicting that event or another scene selected by Akamo which would be developed in consultation with them to maintain the artistic unity of the relief with the monument the execution composition would be by myself and with my son and then I hope that we together can find a way to reorient the perception of this monument so that it might become a sounding board for a sensitive and objective presentation of conflicting historic viewpoints if we propose if we arrive a proposal how do you think we should proceed I look forward to hearing from you soon I never received an answer I did speak to many a Pino about it and I told him that we should not accept that plaque it was like throwing a bone to

a dog I mean there was nothing and this is what John Houser has said over and over I mean this monument is here we might as well accept it we might as well work with it we did he even says we might grow to love it I say that I wait a minute I say that I say that he's been wrong from the start he's been untruthful from the start and over and over you've said that you didn't really know the history until you started listening to the protests that were going on and now this morning you you say that you did know you've been untruthful right from the start we want to tell you that it's your responsibility it rests on your shoulders you did it this is yours this this has to be yours you accept it Iris what would you like to see given that we're at this point in our common history here going forward what would you like to see your envision to try to improve the situation number number one what I would like to see is these statues

come down they come down that's it they come down and we stop commemorating those people that perpetrated genocide and misery in this world then we can get together and we can embrace each other and say let's move forward but people like John Houser whose ego puts him in this kind of situation they're the ones who perpetrate this this controversy and he says it's off for the good it's not off for the good it's for his good John what about that idea of taking it down whatever how does it make you feel everybody is gonna have a different viewpoint that's what that's what the film is about it's a point of view there are many different points of view and I don't I don't have any control over it you know it's it's not for me to say but if somebody decides that then I guess that's what'll happen what is in contention here is how that event gets framed and immortalized and memorialized in the film or in the

statue well what I heard you saying was that in fact there was a moral equivalence among all of us that that we all participate in a kind of willful blindness is that willful blindness but what I'm saying is that I don't think that there is a moral equivalence we're talking here about certain historical events and the people who were vanquished the Akima people have a story to tell that is silenced by this monument and there is no plaque there is no you know other fixing that can be done because the point of view is off that's that's so there's so there's no there's no possible solution given the innovative abilities and I and this the only way of rectifying it in my

opinion is to turn it over to the Akima people and the other Pueblo people to decide well what about the people of El Paso well are they not part of the equation well part of the problem with democratic with democratic processes as we all know I'm not talking democracy I'm saying they're part of the equation as well that it is their town they have an ancestry that is both Native American and Spanish and it is part of their struggle to figure out what that means and that's also important and so what I'm saying by this is that it's not black and white it's not this or that it's very complicated well but but the thing is we can make it so complicated that we can never talk about the statue no what I'm talking about is the statue and the statue has a parallel story that isn't being told and cannot be told with a plaque I guess my question is in part what were the people of El Paso thinking who was

speaking for the people of El Paso in the film it says that 80% of the population of El Paso what is Miss Diesel 20% is Anglo then you find out the cost of this statute which is like one million dollars you know I mean it's probably yes exactly it's probably more than that and then you see in the film the need in the community and so you know I think it's problematic in terms of suggesting that perhaps there is some counter narrative that you can do around the statute and that you know the the the thing that comes to my mind is what President Reagan said to President Gorbachev which was President Gorbachev tear this wall down and it's almost the same you know

what we would say to the city of El Paso city of El Paso tear this statute down and then we can talk then there's an opening provided please I think that is precisely the point because you know you John you suggested that there are other models out there in terms of statues that are up in museums that can go around it some counter education some stories some plaques but the paradigm the defining paradigm stands right there tallas can be larger than life and that will always be the defining paradigm against any smaller counter narratives that can be there you know I agree with Christine that absolutely the only way to address the only way to create common ground literally Margaret was addressing this all things being common this was a point the but all things

aren't aren't it's not a level playing ground right now it hasn't been for a long time so I just want to say that that you would have the defining paradigm but I do want to add sort of focus on this this propensity to focus on individuals it continues to bother me there's so many layers that we can peel off here one day on yet that does not represent Spanish society does not represent you know what what is actually brought here you know he does not bring laws and you know he leaves and chains here's an individual that that really does not build the colony after different periods and yes the soldiers the farmers the ranchers are also extensions of empire to be clear but but those individuals are actually the ones that stay and continue to mix over several generations why do we continue to honor individuals and in

this case I think a mythology of an individual because that here's someone who actually is not a hero even by a trial of his own peers but why do we honor individuals at all when we cannot recognize whole groups of individuals that rise up in the next century to to to create a sense of survival for those generations that follow it's that group that we have to honor individuals are not the way to do it are you sorry for having entered into this project or any regrets or do you stand by what you want to do accomplished stand by the original concept of the of the project and I do believe that if we if they have said Monyante haven't been the second figure if he were the seventh of the eighth of the ninth of the twelfth that I think this thing would have been placed in a greater context and people would begin to realize that not as a moralize more as a moral issue but as as a

recognition of history and let's look at it let's not be afraid of it let's let's tear it to pieces and examine it our panel discussion and the audience feedback was edited for time but the content was kept in its chronological order you can see the complete version in its entirety by logging on to our website at canami.org forward slash to mexico and focus why you there you can also view my one-on-one interview with the filmmaker John Valadez the last conquistador airs on canami on july 31st at seven p.m. you can find out much more about the film by logging on to our website again that's canami.org forward slash to mexico and focus we'd love to hear what you think about the film the statue or on yata himself just drop us a line at that website or you can email us at in focus at canami.org right now it's time to debate another issue brought up in the show the role of public art here's david with that discussion and now we are joined by three guests to discuss the obligations of art specifically public art and the issue of cultural sensitivity first to my

right we have sherry burr she's a professor of law to u.n.m. law school also a specialist in art law next to her is bob houses a Santa Fe based artist and on the other side of the table we have sherry brugamon she is the city of albuquerque's public art program manager thank you all three for joining us today we've seen earlier in the show the emotions that that can come up with with a project like this one the onyata in el Paso and I wanted to begin sherry with a question for all three do you think you know now knowing everything we know that this use of public funds in el Paso for this particular stature was a reasonable use of public money i think it depends on what part of the public you're asking whenever you're dealing with onyata your bound to get controversy and the bigger the project and this one is huge then the more controversy is going to follow for example in albuquerque I was on a public art sport when we voted to fund a ten thousand dollar bust of onyata and I went away to teach at the University of Hawaii for three

semesters and when I returned the project had mushroomed into five million dollar project just because certain people had thought the ten thousand dollar bust wasn't big enough did you vote to support that project I voted to support the ten thousand dollar bust but coming back you were unsure well shot that it had grown to five million dollars fortunately finally in the final analysis the city only ended up spending 486 thousand dollars but that's still a long way from ten thousand but part of the problem was that the bigger the onyata project began became the bigger the controversy granted your point that it depends on which public you're talking about but for you as someone who's very familiar with these issues has studied them as a scholar what what do you come down well I think onyata is he's he's like this coin where depending on your viewpoint you know some people look at him and they see a discovery a discoverer along the lines of Columbus other people look at him and they see Hitler you know someone who committed genocide against the Indians so on the

one hand you know there is there was a lot of things that he did that you can celebrate and that people should know about but then there are other things that he did that people should know about and that they should be vilified Bob same question do you do you have the same a nuanced view as professor burn well I think that uh... yes of course it should be should exist but from an native perspective it should be uh... pointed out as an example of mass ignorance of human uh... disregard of other cultures other people from native particulars always a balance here's a man who uh... who if they hadn't one in a matter of a linear sense he would have been an Aztec but instead he was Spanish but he's in reality he was a Mexican man he's he that's where his family comes from uh... he came yes yes his his mother was a great great grandmother I think was a uh...

Aztec queen or something a royal lineage and but to put this thing up and to ignore the facts of this issue and not across the plaza put up the truth that says look at this man look what we're doing but the the winners write the books where we're honoring a man who who should very easily represent cultural genocide of a western man against the indigenous man it was his purpose was to take to take to take it wasn't to share it wasn't to do anything except to take and dominate and to build a sculpture like this yes let's put it up let's leave it up but let's uh... do another on the other side of the plaza somewhere else it says look how ignorant we are we're american people the whole world sees our ignorance that's let's let's be honest in a minute definitely a lot of things to revisit there but but first sherry uh... i was hoping to get your take on this initial question was it a reasonable use of

public funds well i'm gonna come at it from a slightly different perspective something that we talk about in my world often about the use of public art dollars for public art and and sort of economic impact of doing um... large-scale sculptures sculptures that have potential of being iconographic destination artworks for cities and you can tell by reading the history of this project in el Paso that they were really looking to build something huge and monumental that would put them on the map that people would want to come to so they certainly picked a appropriate topic but uh... absolutely but that just the sheer scale of the sculpture itself costing a million dollars i'm actually surprised it in cost more than what the cost of materials that have gone up over the past uh... you know several years on with with steel and bronze and the the price of uh... copper it's not surprising at all cost that much money and are they gonna get what they wanted out of it the notoriety people coming to to their city to visit the peace and and learn about it it'll be you know we'll see what happens you said you were surprised i'm

curious were you also surprised that some of the city officials early in this process seem to be quite ignorant of uh... who only out there was of how controversial a figure he remains there was a city councilor uh... who says you know pretty straight forwardly the beginning of this process he had no idea later he learned and later he became much more critical is is that something you were surprised about it i was surprised especially given what albuquerque went through you know four five seven years earlier for a long period of time and it's not like this didn't make news across the world i mean there's a there's a woman who's writing a book right now called memorial mania and she came to the southwest uh... just to visit uh... our own yacht base sculpture the law her not a project at the albuquerque museum as well as several others in the southwest because she's writing one chapter just about this figure in the sense of memorials so to think that some folks from alpasso were aware of the potential controversy that's a little surprising

sherry well i'm curious if one of the take-home lessons from this piece of history and and and i'm sure it's not quite over yet is that public art uh... can't be so controversial that that we need to have called public art that that as you were mentioning is sensitive to these various publics and maybe the ultimate result is say those big pots that are on i forty uh... that are that are that are are beautiful but uh... certainly not controversial is that one of the take-home lessons well i don't know if you can say that because look at cruising salmateo or what's popularly the popular name is sheviana stick because you would look at that and say all that's interesting piece of art but it is controversial so i don't know if you can ever say that x piece of art will not be controversial different standards apply when it's public art well because the public money is involved so i don't know if different standards apply but you're likely to get the public to feel more invested because it's tax dollars at stake and bob you you have done quite a number of pieces uh... publicly funded uh... you certainly i know by your own admission are are political socially

aware artist how do you come at this from the artist point of view is this uh... do you sympathize at all with uh... with mr. houser well before going further i want to say that this mr. houser is not related to alan houser and that the name houser is uh... is a victim uh... the name itself is a victim of uh... of assimilation our name is houser and it has nothing to do with this man so i denounce that relationship i heard on the radio and it irritates me my dad is a wonderful man he made beautiful art for all people this artwork is uh... offensive to me it shouldn't be there or it should be there with the with the balance but to me as a public uh... commentator i see it as a our mass ignorance as american people to allow this to happen and not have this dialogue before it before was commissioned if we do commission artwork that has a political content and inspires uh... a response all the more because we need to talk

one thing i wanted to ask you bob about as many people uh... who may not be art experts but probably familiar with your piece of work there on central avenue cultural crossroads uh... very provocative peace controversial at the time there was a debate uh... where i think there there was a some barbed wire that was part of your vision ultimately uh... this is way shorthand history of course did not uh... meet the approval there was some contract contrast i believe you were uh... a bit upset about that but my thought was how how why not sympathize with uh... this gentleman in el Paso when you yourself almost went through kind of something similar in that part of your design you know met some stiff opposition ultimately uh... it wasn't allowed to be part of the artwork very very simply because my statement was about the truth it was about the assimilation of people the loss of culture the cultural crossroads to america's the wire separation the huge wall it's going up now it's as contemporary as it ever was and it was about the truth maybe from my perception but i got tremendous

support from the city from the state from uh... the university but the only specific people in university said no because they didn't like the fact that i was not being a decorative artist i was making a statement sherry so but bob you'll acknowledge part of the controversy in your situation was the addition of the constant in a wire which was not part of the mock that you gave the university when they approved the contract for you yeah and the contract also said you have the right to make artistic choices the city has the right to visit the university has the right to visit studio not one person came to my studio or talk to me uh... i think it was really inspired by one or two board members and one community uh... museum director and that's the kind of power uh... public art has against indigenous people if you don't like it you stop it and i remember the time i was a student you know uh... at that time and i remember i was thinking it's just a small piece i mean the overall uh... for many i remember going back later and saying

you know why couldn't quite understand why all the controversy but uh... be that as it may you know one issue is made mention earlier share and i was hoping to get your thoughts on this uh... i'm curious if our standards are changing in a different way in that you know if if Christopher Columbus was the subject today you know and arawak indians were around of course they're not maybe that's uh... a whole other issue uh... that we wouldn't be commemorating statues or or erecting statutes let's let's just say uh... figure like him our our standards shifting as the years go on you know i don't think it's so much that the standards of uh... of what should there shouldn't be commemorated a memorializer shifting i think it's our standards of our process that we go through the public process you know the thirty years of the public art programs history in the city of albacarkey we've gone through our fair share of controversies and uh... you know really as as as lots of um... public art sort of writers uh... mention it's it's the context not necessarily the content it's a context of how the art gets um...

set up where it's placed and in the process that it goes through the content itself is usually not what what pushes the button especially if we go through a a process where we do educate ourselves in the community and the artist acts as a facilitator to bring that about so i think that we're definitely as as arts administrators and the network i'm connected through to to um... throughout the country we're very aware of making sure that we are doing the most open process that we can because regardless of the content it'll usually come through and be accepted one way or the other um... as part of history or as a great art piece if we if we adjust our process share a quick follow up to what what she was said you know in the documentary the word glorification honoring is used in terms of this one not the statue and how is that different from simply recognizing our history without the value judgment size size recognition is a ten thousand dollar bust you know glorification is

that monumental size that's that's the big difference here bigger is better well not necessarily not necessarily yeah well and bob i'm curious uh... you know when you hear about these types of projects i know you have said that you like uh... art to to be honest to be uh... both beautiful and ugly kind of to to represent the the full picture picture is your problem with uh... an example of our public art like this on the statue is that it does seem to glorify it's this beautiful horse it's you know this uh... handsome spanish uh... you know uh... soldier uh... and not uh... you know there's no warts as far as i can see is that part of the problem with this particular piece i don't think it's really an honor in a vanyati at all i really think it's a portrait of our insensitivity to history to races to to cultural differences so i don't really look at as a piece of art we're just a piece of decoration no different than a fire hydrant to me

sure do you see it same way well it's certainly polished you know i mean i have to say that the one thing that is different about the the resulting piece here in albuquerque was that it included um... other other figures in the memorial animals and it kind of has this gritty uh... natural look about it in a way that that it wasn't necessarily glorifying an individual it was more about um... trying to sort of represent uh... uh... uh... uh... maneuvering across of you know barren desert land it was not it was not glorified um... but again it go back to the sense of scale and rather polished look about it it's um... yeah bob one additional question i i i i was thinking that this earlier i'm thinking on you uh... you have an interesting perspective on this i'm curious if you think there's any irony in the fact that here in the southwest uh... this you know this history of spanish colonialism you still have over twenty sovereign nations in this state alone on the east coast i mentioned Christopher Columbus a second ago there certainly is nothing close to that

um... isn't it kind of ironic that here you have a vocal opposition descendants of these original uh... inhabitants uh... but in other parts of the country don't oh i talked to a man who used to hold with him and mr. rio and he told me we've been here together for four hundred years we're all brothers so i think that uh... i can't understand i can't understand it we it we're making art now that the whole world thinks of a bronze sculpture as being antiquated we've done that hundreds of years ago now the whole world art world somewhere else except on public projects where we we do people on horses out of bronze it's it's such a oh i i can't even get involved in that it's just where what is it about except the entertainment we're entertain ourselves with that with television and movies and and art and we're not talking about real issues and we should maybe add for those who aren't familiar with you're a patchy

artist yes um... sherry i think our time is is running low but i wanted to ask you as someone who can studies these issues and in others related to art any advice that you'd give to you know governments that that might be grappling that the sherrys of of the world here across the table uh... and how to deal with these issues as best they can one know your history you know because ignorance as bob has said many many times is going to be the source of your um... the bane of your existence when these issues really take off so i think that would be one thing and and like sherry said with alpasso i mean there was so much history i mean it was i think that this uh... um... the on yachtate sculpture in just north of san if they didn't someone hawk hack the feet off foot off or both feet or just one of the yeah very clever political statement yes yes yes so all these on yachtate statutes have been the subject of controversy so it's ironic to me that these people in alpasso

would support such a huge one and not know what they were getting themselves into well that note we're going to have to end this conversation but thank you all for uh... for real fascinating discussion sherry burr with uh... u-n-m law school bob houses say a san if they based artist artist and sherry brew them with the city of south albuquerie's public art program uh... thanks again just to clarify bob houses is the son of well-known artist alan house or but neither of them are any relation to john house or who designed the sculpture in alpasso and again if you want to know more about the film the last conquistador just log on to our website at canami dot org slash new mexico and focus and don't forget send us your thoughts on the issue on the website or by emailing us at in focus at canami dot org until next time thanks for watching