¡Colores!; 802; Spanning the High Desert: New Mexico’s Historic Highway Bridges; Interview with Rina Swentzell, Voiceover 1

Yeah, maybe, let's talk about it, you know, we got to think about it, you know, it's a good conversation, like, you know, not probably, you know, take off what you're saying and ask about questions and stuff, but we know kind of what we're interested in is what the table perception of the river, you know what I mean? And then, and then what is it? Yeah, you know, what it means for, what does it mean? You know, is it, is it really kind of, you know, it's, you know, it's, you know, it's, you know, it's our, uh, life force, it's a perceived, but what was perceived as living? It doesn't, it doesn't seem like, you know, can you hear voices? Does it have, does it have, does that have a personification process? You know, I guess, people go down to the river, you know, you have to get drinking water, get something out there and play, you know, travel, you know, what, you know, what they're passing, you know, and river force, how do people be crossing the river? And then, of course, with, you know, with these kind of interviews, it's my, my voice, more sure, what that is, it, and it's the other.

And so, you know, when you're starting things, if you can say something that makes it, you know, it doesn't assume what I've asked, but it cooperates with me. And so, if I, you know, I said, if I would ask something about, you know, what's, you know, what's the table? Is there any table over there? Yeah. Yeah. Or your table, you know, the rivers, you know, spoken of as, we've got about which means, and where's translate to as, you know. And, and actually, you know, you know, do that. You know, if you think a bit, but I don't know, I don't understand. I kind of keep track of what we've got, if I think we've, you know, you said something good, but it's, you know, it doesn't have the first part of it. You know, this is a good idea.

Okay. Well, I guess my, my first question is if you could talk about the table, perception of, of either rivers in general or the Rio Grande. There, since that's the one that's right there, how it's regarded, how people think about it, how they, you know, how they describe it, how they talk about it. The perception of the river at Santa Clara where I grew up is really quite amazing because they, the people really do feel that the river is so, it's such a strong force, such a strong power that one has to be very careful about how one approaches it as well as how one deals with it. The name for the, for the river is Olsonge, which means the big river, or the big water, not the river, the big water.

It's always water sometimes, but the, the water, the force of the water is really, is really amazing just because there's, there's power to really drown people. But also because it represents the, the life force of the universe, the, the flowing water is acknowledged as something very, very sacred because that's, that's where, that's where we can see the life force of the universe. The same way we can see it in the wind, we can also see it in the water, in the, in the movement of the water itself.

There's incredible reverence and, and, and the acknowledgement of power in the flowing water. And, of course, I won't give the normal verbal responses that I'm following you and appreciating what you're saying, I'll just be nodding, you know, so, just, you know, so that you realize that, you know, I'm saying, instead of saying, uh-huh, I'm just, you know, I'm going like that. Can I want to say a heart? Well, because we don't want that on the tape, see, because it would be strange to have this nice, articulate voice speaking and then, oh, why so? Yeah, he would sleep over a little bit if it says anything. Yeah, where is that? What's that? Who's that? Somebody, the bush is by the river. Then, what about going down to the river? Any, any personal memories, any, costumes that mothers give their children, you know, any, anything that comes to mind about, you know, kind of image of being at the river? We lived right there at the, at the place where the Santa Clara Creek came into the, into the Royal Grandi, to the Bosongi.

And so, we have the experience of one small flowing body of water and the, and the large one. And it was okay for us to go by the, the small one, because the path, you know, proportionately, the power was smaller with, with that one, and the dangers weren't as great. The old, people like my great grandmother, I lived with, always, this don't, don't go down there because it can, it can take you with it. The small river, or the small stream, we were always in and washing clothes and washing ourselves and walking in. That sort of interaction was there with the small, but with the big one, one had to, one had to have some, some distance, distance from it. Any memories of it flooding, in spring? There, there were, it did flood, the river would flood through there, but there were also areas around the river, through the conwood trees, where there was standing water, and there still is, the pools, it mixed pools were over, overflows.

And it was also, we also always knew that there was, there were places where one could sink into the, into the wet, earth, you know, like quicksand, and now places where the water was so soaked up, you could get. There were people who, and my childhood memory, who actually, it get pulled in into those areas and died there, so there were some real dangers that we knew. Besides that, there were, the image of the water, the river, and snakes were always part of our awareness. Because there were actually snakes down, down in there, along the river, but, but the two also symbolically go together, and the snake being such a strong symbol of water, and the, and the water serpent that likes the wet places, so those were all, those were all part of feelings about the water.

And, hang on for a second. Sure. Okay, good. Okay, on, on, on serpents in the river, I mean, our, our serpents then associated with the life force, is it that serpents make a winding serpentine movement? Could you, you know, just talk, talk again about that and the associations and, I mean, are there even any, sayings, say that equate the two, or put the, river and the serpent together? The, the, the winding of the, of the water, and the water serpent are always, I don't, I don't think I've ever heard it put, blatantly, that the two go together, but somehow we always grew up,

knowing that the two were, two were very much the same sort of thing. The winding of the river is very much like the, the, the shape of the water serpent, and, and, and for this, for this area, one of the big things that happens, of course, is that water is so important, and the significance of, of, of, of such a big, flowing water, and the water serpent become, really, one and the same thing, then, both of them, really, one literally is about, so the abundance of water there, but the force that water comes with also the power that it comes with, the water serpent, symbolically, being, being that reminder of, of, of, the need for water in our, in, in our lives, in this part of the world.

Oh, you know, the, even the, even the old, all prehistoric places, where they settled along water, streams, or springs, and then again, just under a cottonwood tree, where there might be a small spring, people that the myths would start to build up about, the water serpent haven't found a place to be, so the water serpent was connected not just with the river, but also with all sorts of flowing water, even small springs. There are a couple of things that you said that, you know, I think I'm sure we'll probably use in, in some way, and I'm wondering if you could give a sentence that kind of put them together, and that is, you know, you're saying on the one hand that the life is, that the river is the, it's one of the most tangible, visible, presence, this is at the life force, and it's life giving, you know, including the crops and so forth, but on the other hand, it has this power, and it can take you away, and I'm just wondering if you could give us one sentence to have, you know, perhaps, you know, introduce or tie together these, these thoughts that will pull out that kind of, you know, says, you know, on the one hand it's this, and on the other hand it's not.

The idea that the water is so significant for life, and that it actually represents the life force, we just, just straightforwardly represents a life force as the wind does, and that we, and that we need it for our survival, physical survival. But also that, that it comes along with, with any force in life, life the wind, the water also comes with, with a strength that is, that can be devastating to people, or to any life, anywhere. So that, it's very typical poor little thinking that you can't have one without the other, that you can't, that power comes with, with both beneficial parts of it, and also, the can be very damaging and hurtful.

That, that, that it always happens both ways. Could you elaborate for people that may not have read your writing, the, the concept of the Pooha, or the water wind breath? There's a very strong, important concept, and, and table of thinking, and it's captured in the word Pooha, which is water, wind, breath, and we talk about that as being the, the breath, or the life force of the universe. And that, that it, that the Pooha expresses itself in, in the flowing water, and in the, and the blowing in the wind that we see blowing through the trees. But that, that is, that is what gives life an expression to, to every, every part of the world we live in.

Wonderful. How about crossing rivers? Was, was it so large, and where, you know, when you were younger, where there already bridges available, so, there, was there any fording, where there times of the year, when it was low enough that you could cross over? Well, I don't, when I was growing up as Santa Clara, I don't remember that there were ever times that, that we crossed over, because by then there were bridges, but there are stories of, there were many, many stories about how people would have to, what they would have to do to cross over. And when were the best times of the year to do it? And then we go back further into myths and stories, and we get, we get wonderful stories of how the people trying to cross the river had difficulty. And some of the people couldn't make it, and they turned into fish. And so we taught, in table we have a word for, for those people who couldn't make, make it across the river, and they're called botola fish people.

And, and it becomes a significant ceremonial word that's used today to acknowledge those people who are, who are both fish and humans at once. And that's the similetonative of living gets caught in that word also. What time, you know, you mentioned in general, you know, what time of year? The men, men generally had, you see, the water, that large flowing water, the osonga, is also very, a very masculine kind of power, because of its connection with the snake as well, but it also has very strong,

male, strong, maleness about it. And men could deal with it better than, than women could, because they could understand it better than, than women or children could. And so men, men, in their, in their way, could, could deal with the water. And then, your stories about people's swimming, of course, was, was a big one, but, but I know that people also, when it was low, could walk across it. Although, right around Santa Clara, it doesn't get as low as it does, say, around lower down south, around south of all, culturalty, San Felipe area, where the water really flattens, you know, the, it's much flatter there, not so channeled, and doesn't run as fast as it does. People can walk across it. I'm just, I was feeling, I, I needed to clear my throat and holding it. Now, I looked at that, um, herring town, ethnogiography of the table world, and the place name, closest to where the outer-weigh bridge is, is actually just a little below the bridge, where the, the river kind of narrows into a canyon, and gets noiseier.

And, uh, and the word that he records there, the place name is Posacongue, does that make sense? Posac, posac, which he translates as the place where the river makes a noise. I can't go, I get it right now. Posacongue. Posacongue. I, I don't know. I don't know. And he probably would have gone that from the San Lufanso people, because that's closer to what they would have been. Right. An interesting story though about my father when he was at the Albuquerque Indian School, what he would do is practically follow the river up when he would walk from Albuquerque to Santa Clara on, on school vacations, following the river up.

And stories about where he would, where he would cross over, and that was one of the places around Santa Lufanso where he would cross over to get over to the Santa Clara side. But, you know, the river being used as a, as a way to mark the trail of the people before cars were, cars were in. Your father? Well, from the Albuquerque Indian School. From the Albuquerque Indian School. Did you have any idea how long it took him to? A couple of days. He stopped at San Felipe and, and sleep and eat, and then come the rest of the way. Any, any names or associations that you have with that auto-we area in particular?

Oh, no. You know, we didn't, we didn't go, it's very, it's very interesting that as a, as a community, as close as Santa Clara as to Santa Lufanso, it was acknowledged that that was part of the San El Defonso. I think I said Santa Wingo earlier, Santa Lufanso area, and that, and that, that, that was part of the place where they lived, and that was the area that they were intimate with. People acknowledge their different intimacies with different parts of the river, and that certainly was, was connected to, to Santa Lufanso area. So then people kind of had their, their home zones, and tended to stay in those, and leave other areas to another village. There was, you know, there was nothing that said that people couldn't go there, and that there were even common places that people would visit.