The Border Project; 34; Manuel Molles - Interview

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that the first people they got it, they got it, they weren't different. One other thing, yeah, right. I think that recognizing the value of other biological components of this ecosystem is very important, and that the sooner humans begin to view themselves as an integral part of the whole ecosystem that includes not only the water in the river and the surrounding landscape and the other organisms, sometimes stop. Take two? Take two. The thing is, I think it's very important. What's the answer to this human competition between you? I mean, is there a touchstone or a key to helping us maintain balance within the river ecosystem? I think the most important thing is to strive for sustainability. I'm sorry, before you go, can you preface that with the Rio Grande?

Yeah, okay, all right, right, right, okay. One of the, I think one of the most important considerations with regard to the Rio Grande ecosystem, like other ecosystems, is to keep in mind sustainability. To think over long time scales and over large spatial scales, to begin to think of the river as one integrated system, and to think of ourselves as a part, an integral part, certainly a dominant part, yes, but a part of the whole ecosystem. And that for our own long -term well -being, the long -term well -being and quality of life for people living in the Rio Grande ecosystem, it's very important that we sustain the other components of the ecosystem, the other organisms that form critical parts of the ecosystem, and that provide these valuable ecological services for us. Now, one thing you had in your studies

found that there's a great folkloric tradition and a great literary tradition about rivers. It's just mystical kind of things. They just speak to something in humans. What are some of the stories or the examples you've heard in your research as you're writing that indicate kind of the importance of rivers to people specifically on the Rio Grande? Well, people all over the world who live next to great bodies of water and great rivers, feel a direct connection to the river, and this is true in the Rio Grande basin as well. The people who live along the river, they have a tradition of seeing themselves in their society as a part of the river, as a product of the river, and as connected directly to the river, and they feel themselves as a part of,

I'm going to stop there. I'm just going to stretch the traditional view. I went to a conference once and had the opportunity to hear a Native American leader talk about the relationship of his community to the river, both present day and historical, and he expressed the feeling of a direct connection with the river, and the idea, the belief that the river is not just water and sand, but something living. The interesting thing about that to me is that it converges well with what we know about the river scientifically, and that the river, throughout and the river ecosystem, throughout its various components, from the water column itself, to the sediments, to the groundwater, to the surrounding forest, is all living,

living things inhabit every part of this system, and that there are exchanges from the river to the floodplain, from the river to the groundwater, from groundwater to the river, and that at every step in this process of exchange and flow of water organisms are involved. This man was correct, in his traditional view, is verified by our scientific discoveries that everywhere we look, the river and the ecosystem is inhabited by living things. What are some of the things you just remember in looking at how humans relate to the river? There's this kind of mythic quality, this relationship that human communities, whether it's on the border or elsewhere, they all have a special relationship, especially in folklore, traditional

communities. Well, people all over the world seem to have an attachment to these large bodies of water, and they have an emotional of, let me just kind of stop there, I know we're okay with sound and everything right now, but there are a bunch of really cool stories, it's just a matter of which. I remember when you quoted Leonardo da Vinci, I mean this is really what's kind of artistic. Okay, rivers seem to capture the human imagination, and people from the earliest times seem to have recognized the dynamism of rivers. Ancient philosophers said that you never step into the same river twice, the river is always changing, that's something we've forgotten in our management of rivers, when we try to make rivers static, you can't do that, they change. The other thing is that people feel this connection,

and this sort of emotional attachment to the river, and people everywhere seem to have an emotional attachment to large bodies of water, such as large rivers, this is particularly true where these large rivers flow through desert regions. And I once asked a man from Central Asia, you know, how he has cultured described the good life, and there were various elements that he cited from the sort of folkloric tradition of that part of the world, but one of them was sound flowing water. And that's it, and that's it, that's it. I forgot to ask you about one thing, which is about a dam, a town. I mean I've got two of these home runs, which is like a bloody dog, but the one thing that I forgot is that this is all our whole story is based on a dam built begin in 1906 and then in 1906. Yeah, yeah,

in general, can you just give me a sense of that I know that there's natural beavers dam, right? I love people don't know of Native Americans dam, right? Glaciers dam, dams are natural, but what can you give me some of what an impact, and in this case what impact has something like elephant dam creating two million acre feet behind it? What kind of impact has elephant dam or dams in general have on rivers? Dams have been built on rivers all over the world, and there are very, very few rivers anywhere in the world that are not manipulated in some way. These have had a major impact on the flow dynamics, on the behavior of the ecosystem, and we only are now beginning to see or recognize some of the environmental damage that's been done. In many places around the world now,

people are beginning to try to restore the natural flow regimes of rivers and restore the connection of the river to the surrounding flood plains. In the case of elephant butreservoir, one of the most immediate impacts of that reservoir was to cause the local extinction of several species of fish in the upper Rio Grande. The main impact of a dam is that you sever the connection between the lower river and the upper river, and that was critical for certain species of migratory fish. There were last recorded here in the upper Rio Grande in the 1890s. But it also made it possible first for the agricultural development of the river. But dams also benefit human societies. They have clear benefits to us. They offer flood control. They offer the possibility of storing water supplies that are critical to human communities. They

store water supplies for irrigation, urban uses, and so on. I think that the real question, again, is sustainability and management for many components of the ecosystem and not focusing entirely on human uses. Because we recognize more and more that as we try to do that, we reduce the quality of our own existence, that we really have and live in a partnership with the other biological components of this ecosystem. And if we overallocate for ourselves, we can inadvertently harm ourselves and reduce our own quality of life. Now, until you said that I didn't even done on that, I should ask you, given what we have down there, and there's a big battle over human use. But it doesn't mean, just because we have elephant in the dam doesn't mean that part of the river, other than El Paso, is decimated. It is possible with the technology

we have now to help restore both the river and get water to El Paso. I mean, it's often the case that people will look at a dam or other sort of flow control structure in a system like this as somehow entirely in conflict with the ecological values of the system. We can also use those structures to preserve ecological function and structure in these systems. And more and more in the United States, in this region, and in places all around the world, people have turned to those engineering devices set along river courses to foster certain ecological functions, as well as serve the needs of people directly. So these human uses and needs of the other portions of the ecosystem are not by definition or necessarily in conflict that you can achieve a balance between these competing

demands. So it is possible, despite the explosive growth of El Paso and significant growth in Guadalupe, and significant growth in El Paso, that there's a way to still make this thing work, or is there a way to do it? Yeah, there's a little more in this. And I know it's speculation, but I just meant that trying to get a sense of that, is there a way that we can make this work, or is it really more realistic that at some point we used to have to go over? Yeah, well, I don't know. It's just, yeah, it can be done, whether it will be done as a political deal. Yeah, right. And that I'm not going to, because like I said, that's governments and people who've got to decide that. Yeah. In terms of the structure behind you. Okay, yeah. Are we good? Yeah. A little dark. Here we go. Okay. Yes, it is possible to restore ecological functioning in the rivers. In places where rivers have been polluted for, let's say, five centuries. Just, they have been quick to come back

once people, local populations, have made the decision to allow the river to recover itself. And so it's possible to balance human needs and needs of other components of these ecosystems. It's just a question of political will. It's a question of value. It's a question of people making those decisions. I want to say that differently. Because you say that differently, and you just say, it just includes that people of the fossil, water, and the mace of value, valley. And that's all just to give me that time. Sure, sure. But actually that was sounded to me. Yeah. It's possible to balance human needs and the needs of other components of the ecosystem. And yet the environmentalists don't, they're all bucked up. Anyway. Sure, sure. The geographical. Yeah. Yeah.

It's not bad, bad, but yeah, but let's, it's on the way out. Even though it's difficult, it's still as possible to balance human needs and the needs of other components of the ecosystem. For example, in the mace of valley and in waters and in El Paso, we have this tremendous conflict over alternative uses of water. And all of those human uses are in opposition or in conflict with uses by. Yes. Okay. Sure. Sure. Okay. But on the other hand, maybe, you know, does seem like there's a possibility that. Can I say it seems to me or I think. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to express that, but. Okay. I mean, though it's difficult, I think a sort of resolution of these kinds of conflicts is possible. And I think the key to that kind of resolution is keeping sustainability in mind.

What sort of water allocation and what sorts of human uses of water and allocation to those uses versus allocations of river itself are sustainable over the long term. And one of the things that we know is that the supply of water is limited. And if you all over allocate to any one of these uses and eliminate those other uses, you're going to do harm to the ecosystem. And so, in my opinion, the solution lies with balance. If I could, this I hate to do. I'll do it. I'll do it. Well, it was, that was great. It was just if we could say, what, what the communities of waters in El Paso and the Maseo Valley are going to have to grapple with. That's all we left out. Okay. What the communities of waters in El Paso and the Maseo

Valley have to grapple with is these competing demands and the. Okay. Let me. Yeah. Give me words. I would use any word. On one hand, if they just continue as they're going with just staying competitive, the consequence could be. On the other hand, if were they to cooperate? What do you think the consequences make me to share it? That's my take. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's what I feel too. It's just a matter of kind of hot to express it. So I was trying to give it that geographical hook of right. Right. So you don't need to clothe it. Okay. Right. Yeah. Conflict over water has been historically part of air lands all over the world. And the conflict over water between waters in El Paso and the Maseo Valley is a regional example of these kinds of conflicts. Over the long term, it seems as though the solution

and sustainable solution to this sort of conflict is a cooperative understanding or agreement between these parties that can build a sustainable future for everyone and for the river. And if they don't, but let's just stick to it. I mean, and if they continue to be competitive. Okay. I think we should wait just a sec. Okay. And if these sorts of decisions continue to be driven entirely by competition over this limited resource, I think the ultimate result is going to be a reduction in the quality of life for all of the people in the region. That's nothing. That's great. The last question I just want to ask was that we've kind of metaphorically speaking. Rivers are, you know, our rivers borders or are they magnets? Okay. You know, between. All right. Right. And can you give me a sense of that? It's odd to me that such a delicate little, you know, people from east come out here to go, this is a river

stream for us. How such a delicate river would end up being one of the most important international boundaries in the world? Well, okay. Rivers wherever they occur simultaneously connect and divide. This is true for the natural biota that lives in this region. It's true for the people that live in this region. We are divided from Mexico by the river, but we're also connected sort of irreversibly to Mexico by the river. And there's some people coming. Hello. Okay. Rivers everywhere and the Rio Grande is no exception, both connect and divide. The river connects us with Mexico and also divides us from Mexico. It connects the farmers in the Macio Valley, the waters in El Paso,

and the conflict over limited water supplies divides those communities. We see a parallel in the natural flora and fauna. Hundreds of species reach sort of the edges of their distribution right at the Rio Grande. The easternmost distribution, the westernmost distribution. There are some species then also that will traverse whose distribution will traverse the Rio Grande. But human communities are no exception to this pattern. Whatever it is. Okay. In the Rio Grande, human communities are no different. Okay. North and South. So species find the... One of the most important aspects of any natural population is its distribution. It's really interesting to observe that many

species find the southernmost part of their distribution right at the Rio Grande. Or the northernmost extent of their distribution at the Rio Grande. And our human populations are recognizing that same boundary. And yet there is this... Okay.