Illustrated Daily; 137; The Woman Who Kept a Secret: Dorothy Mckibben (Part 2)

And then the press came out with these TV pictures of Edward shaking hands with Robert. He had to be in there. He's pregnant. He's crazy. Is he without shame? Sure. He had shame. He drinks him. Hydrogen peroxide or something. In 1954, the U.S. prepared to set up a nuclear explosion that would dwarf the atomic blasts the Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the category of small firecrackers.

The hydrogen bomb unleashing the terrible powers of the Sun lay in waiting for the final seconds of the countdown. Two, one, fire! The atomic explosion had registered to force exceeding ten million tons of TNT, five hundred times the magnitude of the Hiroshima bomb. Its ominous cloud rose to a record height of better than twenty miles above the grid surface. Millions of particles of people depth and suffering sweared about within that horrible mushroom. There's an expression these scientists have about something that they've created scientifically and they call it sweet. One could hold up the theory of the hydrogen bomb and say, isn't that sweet? They meant it was a scientific achievement. Well, you disassociate that from the necessity of having a hydrogen bomb and Robert didn't want it. Neither did the twelve men on the board in the east want it and they said so.

But Edward was just a hammering and hammering and hammering and he got people on his side and we have a hydrogen bomb. One of my friends then scientific advisor of Air Force, Dave Griggs, an excellent man. New of my hopes and he came to me. Unfortunately, he died a few years ago of a atomic. He took me to Jimmy Dulito. You may have heard of him. He took me to the Secretary of Air. He took me to the Secretary of Defense. Only two weeks before that last interview. The Secretary of Defense wrote a memo.

We don't need the second laboratory. After I was allowed to talk to him, he wrote another memo. We need the second laboratory. He did not give any reasons. He just said, I changed my mind. Good evening. Last night we suspended mid-conversation as it were a fascinating visit with the woman who kept a secret. Dorothy McKibbin. Dorothy McKibbin was a confidant of all of those who congregated at Los Alamos in those early years, which led to the production, the research and the production of America's first nuclear device. Oppenheimer, Fermi, I.I. Robbie, the whole bunch of them. It was such a delightful conversation last evening that we were unwilling to suspend it. Whether we want to continue it right now. Dorothy, if you don't mind, let's pick up where we were when we left off last night, namely Edward Teller. What was Edward Teller like during those early years at Los Alamos?

Well, he was a very busy man and he was very bright and got into a project. I wanted to say it right through to the end. And he was very active and he had his own division and a lot of the young people worked with him. His wife, Mitsy, is absolutely charming. And as a person, I don't know, as a scientist, because I'm not a scientist, but... The talk of Teller's about him as a person. For instance, I have read, as many people have, that he was very difficult to work with and that many of the other scientists at Los Alamos didn't care for him all that much. Well, there's some truth in that, I think, as it would be with anyone that has a strong personality. And his was sort of a loner.

He liked to achieve things and be recognized as an achiever. He sponsored the hydrogen bomb, which nobody on the hill wanted to develop. As a matter of fact, Los Alamos had since the beginning been working on the atomic bomb and at the same time on the hydrogen bomb. So this was no new idea to them. And to have Teller come out with this great enthusiasm for it. And I thought we didn't need it. We had enough in the bomb affair to destroy the world as it was. They were not simpatical with it. Compare the ego of a Robert Oppenheimer to the ego of an Edward Teller. Well, that's a charming question, absolutely fascinating. There's no link whatever between them in their point of view. And as I was going to say, I'll get back to this later.

That's one reason Edward Teller went to Livermore, because he was so strong on what he wanted. And you can't compare their character and fourth, and you can compare an arcade to a dandelion. I would assume Oppenheimer would be the arcade in her opinion. Well, contrast of the two egos and the two characters, if you can't compare them. What's the difference between an arcade and a dandelion? I'm saying that an arcade is more finely designed and built and delicate and subtle and aromatic. And a dandelion is the thing you kick up with the heel if it's going to take over your grass. After the hearing, I understand which I,

Robbie, told me about in detail when Oppenheimer was sitting in a chair outside of this unattractive, not very attractive building in Washington, and the trial was over after, I think, forty days, something like that. And Edward came out and said to Robert, good luck. And Robert said, I don't know what you mean after what you have said. Do you think Oppenheimer understood the magnitude or the problem that was developing here, that there were those who had decided for whatever reason that there was reason to be suspicious, whether it's clouds, fukes, or whatever of the American scientific community. Oh, I don't think he thought of things like that. When he wrote at the beginning, when that general attacked him in writing, and he wrote that he had been naive in politics,

and he had done a lot for people in Germany who were hard up. And he had friends there, and he sent the money to get them back, and to help them. And he was naive in politics. He wasn't a sharp politician. His career would have been quite different. And that Chevalier, I don't know whether we talked about this before, was in Robert's house, which I had been in at one Eagle Hill in Berkeley, and Robert was at the sink, pouring out drinks, or doing something about refreshments, and Chevalier approached Robert and said, I have an inquiry from someone who said the Russians would be very interested in what's developing in the United States, and Robert said that would be treason. And so that does it.

Robert, I understand, was followed by the FBI to Washington. He even fainted when they were grilling him, and he got so tired of it that this arrogance came out, and he told the same story three times. A cock and bull story, and they said he'd lied three times. But he just shook it off. His life wasn't built. Things like that. It was built of work, and science, and family, and home, and travel. Music, he knew perfectly beautiful music. And his house was filled of it. So Kitty had a greenhouse. He spoke five languages, including Sanskrit, and read the Bhagatav Gita. He was a scholar, and he wasn't the quality. They weren't in any way equal, except they were people that had two feet and hands, and arms, he and Edward. That's fascinating.

Of course, Edward Teller has been described as an arrogant man as well. It's not uncommon for even Oppenheimer's closest friends like yourself to describe him as arrogant. What was the difference in the arrogance of these two men? How were they both arrogant, obviously, but how was their arrogance different? Oppenheimer was always gentle. Always gentle, and he was arrogant. When stupidity was nicked, nicked, nicked, nicked picking at him. He was charming when he taught class. I think I told you that he sat on his desk like a tailor on top of the desk when he's teaching a class. Let's go back if we can to the AEC hearings. There was first the House on American Activities attack on Dr. Condon. Yes. And then that was in the late 40s. Which you think was unnecessary. Yes. And then subsequently in the early 50s,

there was the full scale hearing into the loyalty and the security of Dr. Robert Oppenheimer, who, after all, had drawn together the most impressive group of scientists on American soil to perform a national service by producing the atomic bomb. When you heard that the loyalty of Dr. Oppenheimer was going to be called into question, what went through your mind? It was ridiculous. Cruel and instigated by his enemies. Of course, one of the prime of whatever you want to call it, architects, perhaps we should call it, of the AEC hearings, the atomic energy hearings, which you call trial, was Admiral Lewis Strauss. Now, he did much like Robert Oppenheimer to begin with. What was the origin of his dislike for Robert Oppenheimer?

Well, I think that Robert heard his feelings once when he testified, as I've said earlier, hearing in the Senate Chambers and Strauss was suggesting that we not send isotopes to Scandinavia because they were atomic devices and Robert just stood up and said, they know more dangerous than if you sent him a shovel. And this, in a way, made a mockery of Strauss and never gotten over it. And then he had teller to Aegimon and the army, which was insulted because Robert wanted to divide into three divisions instead of everything in the army. It's just when those cases of human misaliance couldn't get along together.

So, in effect, as you see the attack on Robert Oppenheimer, it's symbolized by what you call the trial. There's a kind of combination of personal envy and political jealousy that came together to put Robert Oppenheimer before that committee in that famous hearing. Yes. All right. Perhaps the most controversial part of that hearing, all things considered, was the conduct of Oppenheimer's former associate Edward Teller and his testimony. What do you, how do you regard Teller's testimony at the Oppenheimer hearings? Well, I.I. Robbie came through, lay me and asked me to meet him there. He's on his way to California, just been at the trial.

And he didn't have time to come to Santa Fe and we sat in the bar of the pink garter which was empty then. And we talked. And the manner of his testimony, I was told by Robbie, was so ingratiating. A security risk, a security risk. I feel that the country would not be safe in his hands. Why would Edward Teller say that about Robert Oppenheimer? Because for years he has not looked at him favorably. He was a rival to Edward Teller. And he was doing better than Edward was. Let's put it that way. I want to put in a word about the hydrogen bomb which everyone on earth didn't want to have created. And one reason was they'd been working on the hydrogen bomb

same time they worked on the atomic bomb at Los Alamos. And there's an expression these scientists have about something that they've created scientifically and they call it sweet. Well, one could hold up the theory of the hydrogen bomb and say isn't that sweet. They meant it was a scientific achievement. Well, you disassociate that from the necessity of having a hydrogen bomb and Robert didn't want it. Neither did the 12 men on the board in the east want it. And they said so. But Edward was just a hammering and hammering and hammering. And he got people on his side and we have a hydrogen bomb. Was Edward Teller a better politician than Robert Oppenheimer? Well, I would say Robert Oppenheimer was not a politician at all. And I would say Edward was more like as a politician

and a dolphin going up and down in the ocean. The imagery of a dolphin and Edward Teller going up and down the ocean is a little much for me to handle at this moment. But I understand precisely what you're saying. The outcome of those hearings, of course, was a personal disaster for Robert Oppenheimer. Yes, they took away his clearance. We needed him so much. And he wrote books run entirely open mind and things like that. He said, if the AEC asked me to work for them, I would. I can tell by the expression on your face that you think he was far too generous. Yes. What his associates, Oppenheimer's associates, in the aftermath of the hearing trial,

were almost to a man, his close associates, supportive of him, appalled. What did they think of Edward Teller on the basis of his testimony of that? Well, I haven't questioned. Marker has written a beautiful small book about the trial and everything. It's very dispassionate and absolutely correct. I knew where it was and you could read it. But to answer your question, what they think of Teller after that, they didn't care for his behavior at all. One of them refused to shake hands with him when he was up at the lodge. Then come back to Los Elements after this very much. You know, they come a lot as consultants and so forth. And I was standing there when this guy from Caltech, whom you would know very well, as standing there in Edward came by and held out his hand

and this man just stood like this. He was one of the younger and very fine scientists. That's what they think of Teller. How many hell Robert Oppenheimer felt? Was he, as he is sometimes portrayed, destroyed, personally destroyed? Nobody's health was. Everybody would say that his spirit was never the same. He died at 67. His spirit had been hurt, absolutely hurt, wounded, crushed. And everyone speaks of that. Robert Bakker speaks of that in his book, too. So his last years, although he came out at Spocket at Los Elements and I told you about that and he had tremendous ovation. When you talked to Oppenheimer after the hearing, what was your personal impression of his physical and emotional condition?

Well, he spent the night at my house on his way to California and we had our martinis which he made and our steak and asparagus. And we were sitting here by the fire and about eight o'clock. I said, Robert, would you mind talking about this? And he said, no, I would like to. So he talked to me until three o'clock. And I'll never forget that. And I told you before I said why didn't you have some women defender and he said, Kitty had done wonderfully. He said, I knew it was rigged and I decided to answer his politely as I could. That's why he answered the way he did and that's what he wanted to do. And they could take him and put him in a hot cauldron of boiling water and he would answer as politely as he could. I don't mean to say he's a martyr.

He's just a little above some of these people in the world. Are you saying he had class? Yes. Did Edward Teller have class? No. All right. It was, it fell to Preston John Kennedy as it were personally in a very subtle way to apologize to Robert Oppenheimer for what the American government did. And he ordered him to have the Fermi Prize. Well, the interesting thing about that was that Edward got in there before and he got the Fermi Prize before Robert got it. And this, of course, didn't affect Robert. The way it affects me, Robert had asked me to come on and stay with him and see him get the Fermi Prize. And then when Kennedy was shot, I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't get in the plane and go there. I was so sick about his being shot.

And they thought they'd call it off. And then the Oppenheimer's comments said, no, they're going to have it. And Johnson will give it to us. And Edward was present when Robert got the Fermi Prize. He couldn't be out of the picture for anything at all. I would call him paranoid. And I said to Kitty later, if I'd been there, I would have dropped a brick on his head. She said I would like to, but I didn't have one. And then the press came out with these TV pictures of Edward shaking hands with Robert. He had to be in there. He's paranoid. He's crazy. Is he without shame? Sure. He had shame.

He drinks him. Hydrogen peroxide or something. Dorothy, I'm having too good a time. All of a sudden here. But you must have published all of this. It's a tenor of my thoughts. I had detected that. What would Robert and Oppenheimer say today about the state do you believe of our nuclear arsenal? I have no idea. I think he'd be against it. He thinks we've got enough to just wipe the world out of the way we are. He was very interested in international control. Yes. Very. It was called the Baruch Plan. Yes. But it was really the Oppenheimer Plan. Yes. Well, I was having lunch with Robert and Kitty at LaFonda when all this was being discussed. And we had a curts of chicken sandwich and hallelujah made. He was called to the telephone and our negotiator's name I know well was calling from New York and said

we have failed. Russia wants world domination. And that meant the Baruch Plan had been voted down. And the Robert came back the table and sat down. And he had this look in his eye that wasn't with us at all and he didn't eat another bite of food. I think when Robert Oppenheimer said I am become death the shatter of worlds that he meant that. Well, he was the leader of the manufacturer of this bomb. And he was doing it because they had inside information that Germany was working on it like crazy. But Germany got diverted when they started shooting those rockets to the coast of England. You see Hitler didn't like Jews and that's why many of the Jews were over here and had been over here.

And he won a slaughter and all. And anyhow, he got diverted on his crusade of charm and loveliness. And sent those rocket bombs the coast of England. You know they had watchers in the roofs of building to throw them off where they blew everybody up. And so how do I finish his sentence? He just felt that we were in for it. Do you think he thought there wasn't? Do you believe that when Robert Oppenheimer said I am become death the shatter of worlds? He meant in fact that the scientific device would be on a collision course with our own extermination as a consequence of what he did. He might have had that gently in his thought or in the back of his mind, sure. We're also crazy and so nuts.

And if some maniac gets control of the country the way Hitler did and wins. England was in a pretty precarious position there you know from Hitler. I don't know. Or people get so money mad they're so interested in money that they don't think of the good of their country they're in. It might be possible. I think we've been given this has been two of the most pleasant evenings I've spent in a very long period of time. Thank you for gracing the illustrated daily and telling us your story. Well I regard it as a great honor and pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you. That's it for tonight. Thanks for joining us. I'm Hal Rhodes. Good night. I have been asked whether in the years to come it will be possible to kill 40 million American people in the 20 largest American towns. By the use of atomic bombs in a single night. I am afraid that the answer to that question is yes, but it is certainly not possible to take the definition of atomic energy.

And the prohibition against him is helping other nations industrially literally. It is certainly not possible to do that Mr. Senator because everything we do is contrary to it. Everything we do is contrary to it. Back to our dynamic, could you tell us what your thoughts are about what our atomic policy should be? No, I can't do that. I'm not close enough to the facts and I'm not close enough to the thoughts of those who are worrying about it. What your thoughts are about the proposal of Senator Robert Kennedy that President Johnson initiates talks with the view to help the spread of nuclear weapons. It's about 20 years too late.

Thank you very much.