Illustrated Daily; 4005; An Earlier Generation of Women in Politics

You The Illustrated daylight managing editor how roads and We shall attempt to correct a Deficiency in our understanding of some important aspects of our political life both locally and right here in New

Mexico. It has to do with women and politics. But our purpose for the next couple of evenings is to go beyond the impact of the women's vote on elections today. What we seek are insights into the often difficult world of the movers and the shakers. Women whose careers have taken them to the very center of the electoral process as candidates and as holders of public office. There are some 17 ,000 women who hold public office in the United States today and estimated 120 in New Mexico. And the obstacles they encounter in their quest for public office differ significantly from their male counterparts. To take stock we begin with an earlier generation of New Mexico women in electoral politics and two New Mexicans who know that story firsthand. Francis Shipman now 74 Republican, former Republican National Committee woman from New Mexico for 25

years a member of the Republican State Executive Committee. Six times a candidate for electoral offices ranging from the state legislature to the office of New Mexico Secretary of State. Dorothy Klein now 79 Democrat by her own account a teenage suffrage at former chairman of the Bernalillo County Commission, vice president at the state's 1969 Constitutional Convention, former member of the President's Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental Relations, Canada in the 1950s for a seat on the Albuquerque City Council. Dorothy, when in the early 1950s you first ran for a seat on the Albuquerque City Commission as it was called then in Uranus and independent. The local political leaders advised you that in their opinion you would be a liability on the ticket because you were a woman or are a woman. That's correct.

Other than yourself obviously was there any significant body of opinion at that time that being a woman in electoral politics was a political asset? I don't know that anybody really thought about it too much at that point. The name had never come up. A suggestion had not been made as far as I know but then I had only been in Albuquerque or New Mexico since 46 so it could have happened before that. But I don't think so. A name never came up until I decided I would run and I don't think that I can recall of any group that I ever went to. That said being a woman in politics is going to help you. That's right. Nobody ever said that. Nobody. Francis, you ran for public office in Northern New Mexico on a number of occasions, an Anglo, a Republican, a woman. Is there any way to determine

whether being a woman in electoral politics under these circumstances was the greater of these three potential liabilities in your case? I don't think so. I ran a darn good race and I ran against a Mando Larragoti who has just come back from the consular service from the down below somewhere. Down Latin America. And he beat me by 300 votes. I just don't think that was all the county. I mean I had to run on the county not in a district like it is now. So I guess my question is here you have three potential political liabilities in Northern New Mexico, your Anglo, your Republican. Yes, and a woman. And a woman. Is there any way to determine whether electoral difficulties in your case can be associated with the fact that you are a woman? No, I don't think so because I've been in politics ever since and I've gotten a lot of offices here in the county on the

land news planning committee, on the sole conservation committee and everything like that. So you don't see it as an issue? I don't see it as that at all because they keep coming at me and want me to do this, that and the other. And they want me to take an office but as long as I don't get paid for it, it's okay. Oh well that's always the way it is now. Dorothy, as a teenager in Michigan, you had an English teacher who influenced some of your political instincts and impulses. It's just some degree she did. She was a Republican. I see, and my family was and I drew the line on that. Otherwise, yes, she was a great influence. Following the ratification of the 19th Amendment in 1920, she became the first woman to become a mayor in the state of all, in the entire state of Michigan as I understand it. Yes, a city mayor, right? Did that success in any way emboldened you to think in terms of a career in electoral politics? I had already made up my mind

that I was going to be involved in it. All I had to do was to wait for the time to come since I was in the federal government for a long time. I had to be completely non -partisan. That was too tough for me to take after 11 years. And so it was only a question of when I would do it. I was always interested in it ever since the first campaign which was getting the vote for women. So that decided, in my own mind, that that was a career for me at some time. So I majored in political science or government, which everyone would call it. And I started out active with the League of Women voters, the non -partisan bet, went through all that for a number of years. And then when I got to New Mexico, I realized that I could do something in politics. All right, on this subject, on the subject of women in electoral politics, because I'm going to tomorrow continue this inquiry with two members of the state legislature, both women, and I'm going to probe their

debt to your generation of women in politics. What I'd like to know from you, your generation of women in politics, from whom did you gain inspiration or confidence sufficient to say, as you have, Dorothy? This is what I want to do, Francis. I got it from my father. He was always interested in politics, and he used to call us in as children, and make a sit -down so that he could read us the Webster Hain debate. And that was the most driest piece of literature I have ever heard in my whole life. And then I voted strongly, had a fight with my father, practically, almost got run out of the post office, who were voting in North Carolina, as I voted for Mandel Rivers, and he says, you're not going to vote for that

young Yahweh, and I said, I certainly am. And he was in the Congress for years and years and years until he died. So you voted Democrat in those days? Certainly did. And I vote, start voting when I was 18, because that's what a woman can do in South Carolina. Is that a fact? Absolutely, and my brothers were just furious with me because they couldn't vote until they were 29. Fascinating Angola on the story of women in politics that women could vote before men could vote. Absolutely. Have you ever heard of that Dorothy? No, I haven't. There's two. Didn't know that. Well, I guess they were plowing the vineyard long before your generation. Before I could say that. I guess my question is, were there any women, what's the word they use role models, to whom you said, to look and say, if they can do it, I can do it. I have a hard time answering questions like that, Helen. My mother gave me a sense of independence as much as to say. If I decide I could do something, I want to do something, I could do it. But of course, the

teacher that I'm talking about was a role model for me. I figured if she could be mayor, that was no problem for women, really. I was very naive at that stage. I thought all you needed to have was courage and initiative and the right spirit. And you could do anything you wanted to do. I didn't realize for a while that being a woman was a handicap in public affairs. Well, when did it occur to you? I think it occurred to me when I was doing graduate work at the University of Chicago. The professor with whom I was working in the field of public administration, Leonard White, was asked one day what a woman could do in Washington. He said, well, if you want to get ahead, what you have to do is to become a secretary. And then probably you can work your way up. After class, you can imagine what I might have said to him, although he was a very, very... Perhaps it shouldn't be said on this program. Absolutely not here. But we were very good friends after that, anyhow. Well, that gave me a clue. Now, if I go to Washington, am I going to have to be a

secretary because I'm a woman? Here I'm going to get a degree in public administration. Well, that's what you found out when you were in Washington that maybe you couldn't, maybe you couldn't because you're a woman. I managed to survive somehow. That's a long story. That's another story. But I survived, but at the same time realized that promotions were very limited and the pay particularly limited because I was a woman. Even though I had more background in public administration and some men coming in to a particular office at the time. So I realized then that there was a difference. Francis, has anything that Dorothy has said surprised you? No, not at all. And the only reason I ever stopped putting my foot in the political ring was because we were over at a rally in Santa Cruz and this old gentleman. My name was Mr. Garcia. Looked at me and he got up and he said, we want candidates, nominate candidates for the legislature. And he got

up and he put his hand in his bibble rolls. Took his gloves off. They always wear gloves, you know. And he said, I want to propose that Mrs. Shimon be our candidate for the legislature. And my husband turned to me and he says, you can't refuse an invitation like that. So I said, okay, and that's when I started to run. Let me ask you something. I believe it was Helen Cajagan Douglas who said of her entry into the wild and wonderful world of electoral politics, that of her parents' reaction, her mother and her father's reaction. Her father was generally the more sympathetic and supportive of the two. Is there anything we should plunder here? I don't, as far as I'm concerned, my mother never accepted the fact that I was interested in politics. She couldn't understand that I get involved in something that she considered dirty. That it was not something that one did.

And she never said particularly a woman. She never said that. But she never understood. She always kept saying, Dorothy, I can't understand why you're so interested in politics. That awful field. And I didn't know my father very well. And so I can't answer that question either. Ask me when I can answer. All right. I gather, basically, on what you've told us so far, that your father generally would have... He would have been all surprised that you entered upon the plunder. He would have approved 100%. Both of my parents were dead when I came out here. But your mother, did she value politics? No, no, she didn't. My father was... he had to go to all of the meetings. There were all of the rallies and everything. And in those days, in South Carolina, both candidates got on... All the candidates got to feel on stops, sort of stops. Mm -hmm. Out on the stump. And, uh, literally, blasted each other. Right, right. We had this... We had the satokas in Michigan where a lot of this happened in the satokas. And there

was one man, I remember, who got a fan. He said, if I had one drop of blue blood in my veins, and I knew it, I would cut my arm so it would run out. Well, that's some kind of a political platform, I guess. I've never heard one like that. Back, back, back to your parents' generation, the... An earlier generation than yours. Did that generation of women who were involved in electoral politics? Let's say you're your English teacher. Did they have a tougher road to hoe than you folks did when it came your turn? I just don't know about that. You guys? My arm. I just didn't know. No, they went and voted, but otherwise taking part in politics, see? My mother didn't at all. And I didn't know any of the women that did. If you look at the... You're asking a question, Hal, it really requires a long answer because you have to go back to history of women and what some of them did in the 1880s and 1890s and even back to Seneca Falls in 1948 and all else that it's a long history. It's a way to telescope. Your

instincts. All you can say is that every generation has building blocks in it. And the building blocks depend upon the time, the events, the political environment, everything. And so you build... You're on other people's shoulders all the time. I'm conscious of this that I was on show... I benefited from those who came for me. And I hope that some benefited as a result of the fact that I was on Earth for a while. But I think that happens that you do build. Now, there's a long space at times. I'm fascinated with the fact that after we got to... Well, after the Second World War, for example, there was a long period of time there, when women had to go back to the home or force back into the home after the Second World War. And nothing happened for a long stretch of time until we came up to, well, 20 years ago. Yes. Half of that

span. Into the 60s, well into the 60s. That was a fascinating period. Well, I want to ask you about that period from, say, World War II to the end of World War II on into the twilight years of the 50s, early years of the 60s. The two major political parties. How receptive were they as each of you see them? You've worked both of you closely in different parties. To the entrance of women into the political process at that time was one party more receptive, less receptive, were they equally unreceptive? Is there any way to make any kind of generalizations about that? Well, as far as I can see, there was a prestige of about this, about women in politics. The Republicans felt that it was not a ladylike thing to do. And I don't know how the Democrats felt, because you can speak for them. Well, I'm

not sure I can speak for the Democrats. I can give you my reactions, or I'm not sure I can speak for them. But, well, it's a completely different kind of a party. You had the big city machines, for example. And as I was growing up, I was active, of course, as I say in the 20s, in the early 30s and so forth. Women had a pretty tough time breaking into those machines. Very tough time. And that was the heart of the Republican Party for a long time. The coalition was built on city organizations. You mean the Democratic Party? It was built on city organizations. I always said that if it was efficient, you'd call it a machine. If it wasn't, you'd call it an organization. But anyhow. But so that was tough for women to break into Democratic politics, party politics. And if you read a lot of the materials that come out of that era, you can see that it was pretty tough for women to get anywhere in precinct meetings, ward

meetings to get on city committees, et cetera. Well, I asked the question, actually, for relevance today. Republican Party strategists are right now saying they worry about their success in the 1984 presidential election, precisely because they do not think they have the lion's share of the women's vote among other things. The vice president, or the would -be presidential nominees of your party, the Democratic Party, are we hear them saying that they would consider a woman as a running mate? Is there any way to assess any kind of partisan advantage, disadvantage in the growing influence of women in politics today? Francis, you got any sense of that? Well, I just think that I know that we have elected quite a few in the past few years to the Senate. Paul Hawkins, from Florida, she's the other... She used to be on the National Committee, along with me, and she has been elected, and I think that this year that we'll be able to have a few more

that will be bold enough to try to go into these elections. I really do. Well, what's your question again now? Well, my question is, as women influence women... Are you talking about New Mexico now? Nicely, or locally. Well, cut it up as you would have cut it up. If you talk about where are we going in New Mexico, I'm sorry to say that I don't see too much progress. If you're talking about electoral politics, we got two in the Senate and four in the House, six in the House. Yes, six in the House and two. My goodness, that's one more since I arrived in 46. Just one more in the House since that time. Now, that's real progress, isn't it? I was going to ask you what kind of progress is. That's real progress. Of course, at that time, there was no woman in the Senate, but one that just left, and that was Louise Coe, who had been there, I believe, what, 11 years? Something of that effect, but she just left the Senate. No woman got in the Senate for some

time after that. For some time. And then it was because the husbands died, and then later on some women ran on their own. Let me try this question here. So if that's the kind of progress you're talking about, it is true that more women are elected to local offices. That's true. County commissions, et cetera. No woman has gotten anywhere as an elective state office, because we have that token position for the woman in Santa Fe. If you get rid of the Secretary of State's office as an elective office, women might stand a chance for another top position. Would you buy that, Francis? Yes, I've advocated that when I ran for Secretary of State, that they abolished the office. That's in the blue blood story. Make two wonderful platforms. And Ernestine Evans recommended that to the Constitutional Convention as well. Of 69. Absolutely. Sure. Well, the question I was trying to get at, North, I think you once said that when you initially entered upon your entry into electoral

politics, that some of those most skeptical of your prospects were not necessarily men but women. Oh, absolutely. Oh, yes. No question about it. I think it's still true, too, that some women have a problem that way, voting for a woman, thinking about a woman as being qualified, to some it is a man's, still a man's world, and they have a lot of problem that way. So there's no reason to assume that a woman who runs for public office should necessarily expect to pick up a larger share of the vote in any given race if she's in contention against a man. No, I don't think so, except that it has been done in places, I mean, down south, on that Florida, Polahawkens. She picked up against her opponent. And what? What do you think about that? Oh, I think times are changing in that respect. In fact, I think the gender gap indicates this. Women have gotten more interested in a number of things as a result of moving into the workforce, single

parent families, a number of factors have indicated to us that they do care about certain issues and have a stronger feeling about them than men do. We'll just say war and peace and so forth, that's one. And so therefore, I do think you're going to find a larger percentage of women voting for candidates who will go along with some of their ideas and some of those are going to be women. The fascinating impression that I have had from time to time is that women who are active in politics tend to have, and I think I heard you saying something to that effect just the moment to go at least between the lines, Dorothy, tend to have greater expectations and impose greater demands on women who hold public office than they do of men. Does that make any sense whatsoever? I don't think so, I think. You don't. As far as I'm concerned, I don't see that it has to be that way at all, because

I feel that a woman who will run for a certain office will do that job just as well as a man will. And I'm sorry to say that, but I really think so. I think if you've got the, in other words, employing women to do a job if they can cut the mustard, hire them. And if they can't, and pay them the same as they want a man. Oh, I agree with that. And so this is my philosophy. I don't know what, I think you're probably right. I do hold women up for higher expectations. I expect women, for example, to be more decent in politics. I don't, I don't relish the idea that a woman engages in gut politics like some men do. I don't like the idea that they pull dirty tricks and campaigns and some men do that. So maybe you're right that I do hold them up to a higher standard. I suppose that's

true. The Francis is what Dorothy's saying anyway, change your own understanding of your attitudes toward women and public officer, you can stick to it. No, I think that they can, they can hold an office and do it beautifully. And if they run for it, they may let them have added. All right, in one word, what does the present generation of women in politics owe to your generation? They don't owe anything except that I just have the courage of my convictions. And I've got the, the, the, the, to merit it, to go ahead and jump into it. And regardless of whether I win or lose, it doesn't make any difference. All right. Dorothy, same question. I suppose, uh, follow your convictions if that's what you want to do, get involved in politics by all means do it because if you're good at it, if you want it

badly enough, you'll figure out how to make it into something that you can handle. And go ahead on the basis of your own best inclinations. Dorothy Klein, Francis Shipman, thank you both very much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Now, tomorrow evening, we continue this inquiry with a visit with two members of the New Mexico State House of Representatives, Democrat Judith Pratt and Republican Lynn Tightler. And we'll find out what their views are on the previous generation of women in New Mexico politics, and in the meantime, thanks for joining us. I think all of the women who have spent so much of their, their time and dedication to both major political parties and, and to issues and causes outside a straight political realm have opened doors for duty in myself and for the other women in the legislature and those who will follow us. Oh, there's no question about it. I mean, they are the grand dames for New Mexico and we have so much

admiration for them and owe them so much. But the thing that probably is a little bit discouraging is that the progress has been so slow. They ploughed ground that seemed, for instance, I'm a chairman of a committee and there hasn't been another female chairman of a committee since something like the late 40s. I think we all owe them a major debt of thanks because they have given both of them their lives to New Mexico politics. And I know Francis within the Republican Party is the one of the two that I know know much better. She has created an atmosphere for women in politics in New Mexico that couldn't have been achieved without dedication like hers. I'm Hal Rhodes. Good night. You know, Francis, I haven't done a story with you since 1974. I did a story with Dorothy two years ago and I'm so glad the two of you were able to sit down and get to know one another in this fight. Yeah, I didn't know what that... Well, I want to tell you something. Give yourself... All the cameras off. Yeah. Oh,

they're still running. So, our conversation continues. Okay, I can't tell you the story then. I was going to save you to ask that last question. You told me you were going to ask me that last question. I would have given it very studied consideration and had a marvelous one sentence for you at the close and I didn't have the time to do it. You did very well, both. Thanks a lot. Well, appreciate it. You're going to run for office again? I don't think so. I've run six times and that's enough. And you know, I came out this year not owing a cent. I got so many contributions. Good. Good, that's great. Excellent. That's great. Thank you.