Focus 580; Misconceptions: Truth, Lies, and the Unexpected on the Journey to Motherhood

In this part of focus 580 will be talking with Naomi Wolf. She's a feminist writer. She's probably best known for her first book published in 1900 titled The Beauty Myth how images of beauty are used against women in which she makes the basic argument that the expectations we have of women in regards to their appearance actually is a way of controlling them. She has written a number of other books and she's also written for The New Republic Wall Street Journal Esquire Washington Post New York Times just to mention a few of her other books include fire with fire. The new female power and how it will change the 21st century that was published in 1903 and promiscuity is the secret struggle for womanhood published in one thousand ninety seven. New book is about at least in part about her experiences with pregnancy and motherhood. It's been out now just a couple of months the title is misconceptions. Truth Lies and the unexpected. The journey to motherhood. It's published by Doubleday. In addition to her writing and speaking she is co-founder of the Woodhall Institute for

Ethical Leadership This is an organization that's interested in training young women and ethical leadership for the 21st century it teaches professional development in a number of areas arts media politics law business and so on. Naomi Wolf talking with us this morning by telephone as we do questions comments from people who are listening are certainly walking one thing we ask the only thing we ask really of people who call in is that they just try to keep their comments brief. We ask that so we can get in as many different people as possible and keep the program moving along. If you're here in Champaign-Urbana where we are you'd like to call in 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. That's the number. We do also have a toll free line. And that one is good. Anywhere that you can hear us it would be long distance call for you use the toll free line 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 3 3 3 W I L L and toll free 800 1:58 WLM. MS. Wolfe Hello.

Hi hello how are you. I'm fine thanks and thanks very much for talking with us. Glad to be with you. It seems that that your intent with this book is to do it. You really do two things or at least do two things in parts. There are number of comments from different women that you talk to that are in the book that talking about their aspects of pregnancy and birthing and and the early phases of motherhood that all seem to be saying essentially one one sort of thing and that is nobody told me it was going to be like this. So that it seems that in part it's it's that it's and attempt to say based on your experience and some other women's experience this is how it is. But also that it's it is it's a shot at the way as a society we also approach ideas like and realities like pregnancy and. Motherhood and so forth. Do you see the book as sort of primarily in being one of the other as either a policy piece or a memoir or

was it really your intention to try to do both. Well I wish each of my books as my readers know I do try to do both. I really believe that there are truths about women's life experiences that you only get at five really listening respectfully to women and also by exploring your own experience. And so I do have the voices of a number of pregnant women women who have gone through fertility treatments women who've gone through miscarriage women who had experiences of pregnancy that were deeper than the anticipated in various ways as well as experiences of women going through the birth process which you're right to say very very critical of because there are things very wrong with how American hospitals encourage women to give birth. But behind all of that I do try to peel back the forces the bigger picture forces that are influencing how these personal experiences

unfold. And I certainly do take my own experience at one point it's a Karcher. I had a wonderful baby girl six years ago now a big girl and well Motherhood is the thing that ever happened to me. I definitely. Had the experience that many women did on the journey of pregnancy that it was a much more psychologically challenging experience than the books I read prepared me for. And I also definitely had a very common experience. Many of the women I interviewed with through it of having a traumatic but very ordinary birth an ordinary bad birth and could part of depression. And so I do take each of these touch points as an entry for looking at why so many women in America experience similar challenges on the journey to new motherhood. And you you know have two children. Yes we have a little guy named Joey he is an adorable 21 month old and just that kind of squeezable questionable.

Well I just I raise a question and you have touched on it but I just want to make sure that people who are who are listening understand that. That if you had to do it over again you would still have your children all friends. You wouldn't happen to it OK. But see I mean there are abuses against speaking honestly about new motherhood. And one of the ways a taboo works is that you're really encouraged to not express any sadness or ambivalence or reaction to trauma. Need a motherhood because it is such a gift and it is such a gift to have a baby. But unfortunately when we drive those experiences underground and say you're not allowed to or give you new moms pregnant women the message that you're really not allowed to express anything but just unmitigated joy in anticipation fulfillment. I think that we appeared sickly create the conditions for the extremely high rates of postpartum depression and that tough adjustment that you know many millions of women and new debts have to two new

parenthood. Let me just give you one example. Affair with pregnancy. Wang you are reading pregnancy books. You do get the picture that it's a time of nothing but you know blissful anticipation. And that's certainly true. It's also a time when you are saying goodbye to. An old self you know a self that was free that was autonomous and able to make decisions really for yourself and your. You need to mourn that lost young woman self as you get ready to take on the huge sponsibility of becoming a mother. The experience of pregnancy also brings women face to face with some very challenging moments about what they believe. For instance I am pro-choice at three months. I saw a sonogram of our baby as a pro-choice woman. That experience forced me to delve more deeply into my understanding of what a profound moral decision it is to terminate a pregnancy and it forces

you to recognize how serious that decision is. I still believe women should have that decision. But that was a much bigger life and death kind of moment of thinking got you know this shakes up my easy expectations than I'd been prepared for. Another example is David seven months. I was startled to find that my personality was really changing and many women I interviewed expressed the same thing and that you really do become kind of more kind and more emotional and you know less interested in public. Debate and more wanting to sue hug small children and sit in a corner and eat and you know cuddle cats and I think you very traditionally come in behavior and as a feminist it startled me to find out how much of my personality was altered by what were in fact hormonal changes taking place in my body so these are you know deep things to grapple with and

that is just a foretaste of the profession and challenges that women face once they go to the labor room in the United States and once they enter into the hospital experience. I think one of the things that you touch on and it is certainly the case in spite of the fact that we it seems that we talk more and more about the need for something that we might call parent education. You know that is the idea that there are things that we need to teach people about what it means to be a parent. At the same time we still seem not to be able to shake this idea that being a mother is something that is almost that supposed to be in a woman at a genetic level that it just comes with being a woman and that that means that you're automatically going to know everything to do and and that's just it's just sort of silly but yet we can't seem to shake it. Well it goes very deep we really want to believe that you know as I put it in a book that mothering is effortless like you know apples falling from a tree or you know calves you know cows calving. Thank you.

We really want to believe that it's you know it's so deeply a part of what we come equipped with as women. It's natural but in fact this is one of the reasons so many women feel overwhelmed when they actually become new mothers because well the biological drive and the bonding is you know evolutionarily hardwired into us. It also takes support and it takes emotional support and it takes teaching and it takes many ways of respecting that. The daily challenge and effort and will that goes into being a good mother or a good father that we really aren't ready to acknowledge. And that's why so many women do feel when they are overwhelmed that they are failures rather than understanding I mean I found it personally liberating in this book to find that the ways in which we expect new mothers to cope are actually very unnatural. They're culturally unnatural they're historically unnatural very few societies apart from ours for the last 200 years.

Expect new moms to take a baby home and be prime primarily responsible for it for most of the day. And we have a 1 in 2 rate of postpartum depression in America. The isolation that that that lack of other hands to kind of comfort the new mother look after the new mother make sure the new mother is not having to do additional work additional housework looking after other kids other cultures. Mother the new mother intensively for the first 40 days and make sure that all she has to do is lie in bed and bond with her baby nurse or baby fall in love with her baby. We don't do that with new mothers. And really we expect two pairs of hands to be able to manage. And that is so overwhelming and so in a sense recent an expectation that I found it a huge relief and other women who read misconceptions also find it a relief to know that if they can't cope with that easily it's not because they are bad moms it's not because they're dysfunctional it's because it really is overwhelming to expect new

mothers especially after the traumatic birth that many millions of women have to be able to go home and do it all themselves. So a little emotional support and I'm in other hands because when they be around I talked David about ordinary birth and I really would love to spell out for listeners what I'm describing because many many people might be mystified as to why I would feel so strongly about this. Except new moms probably want that. I gnash many people who work in that health professions. I want to have a say about this. What I mean is that 90 percent of women in America give birth in hospitals and in hospitals unfortunately in spite of 25 years of criticism about how increasingly medicalized and almost industrialized the birth experience has become. Things are worse than ever. Hospital birth has

become more and more like agribusiness in which your labor cycle and your management of labor is speeded up artificially in ways that dangerous to you and the baby not because best practices medical care calls for it but really David because of this kind of speeding up is most convenient and most profitable for hospitals and institutions. And there are also legal pressures on obstetricians to encourage them to intervene and speed up labor in ways that are dangerous for women. And I'd love to give you a few examples of that if you'd like to go there. Well I tell you what let me just real quick here for anybody who might have tuned in I'd like to reintroduce you so people know who it is that they're listening to. And then we can continue our guest this morning is Naomi Wolf. She's the author of a number of books and as I mentioned at the beginning probably best known for her first book The Beauty Myth. Her newest book is about in in part about her experiences with

pregnancy and motherhood and the experiences of other women as well. The title of the book is misconceptions truth lies and the unexpected on the journey to motherhood and it's published by Doubleday and questions welcome 333 W. Weil toll free 800 1:58 deadly while you certainly you do in beginning after you find out that you're pregnant and then go out there looking for care if you did seem to have a tough time finding a doctor that you would be happy with and it seemed a lot of it did seem to be at least to you a very important issues about who was in charge. Is it you or is it the doctor. And also there seem to be a you seem to be really concerned about trying to do everything that you could to avoid a C-section which And I know there are a lot of doctors and you know there's no Biggio on who's on this program every month and we've been talking about this for a lot. Time I know there are some doctors who are concerned that there are way too many of them and there still continue to be a lot of them. And so that was

something that you were and ultimately you ended up having one but it was something that you really seem to feel really strongly about wanting to try to avoid. Well you know most women want to do what they can to have a non-surgical birth. I actually feel like severe infections are really a godsend for those you know 6 to 17 percent of births that require you know surgical resolution because there's a real problem. What I discovered after having had a very traumatic perfectly ordinary severe infection is that there are forces in place in an ordinary hospital birth that make it much more likely that you will have an on necessary Syrian section and that is one of the things I am distressed about. Yet in America one woman in four is going to have a Syrian section. And the numbers go up if you're having second baby because it's considered unsafe to try to have a second baby without a Savior. It's action

by many practices but the World Health Organization is appalled at how high America's rates of severe and surgery are and optimally get it would be in the single digits or you know to 12 17 percent. So that's just one of the things that are happening to women that don't have to do with actually what's best for them their babies. Let me give you an example of how there's like a cascade of interventions that goes into place that leads to traumatic experiences in hospitals for new moms. When you go to an American hospital you are encouraged to lie down. It's very common. This is so ordinary It's almost unremarkable in America. Other countries that have much better outcomes for mothers and babies are horrified that we do this barbaric thing. Women because they know that in fact the most excruciating position in which to Labor is lying down in a bed. Not only is it excruciating thus leading you to call for an epidural thus making forceps delivery more likely thus making more likely chatter but it actually

forces a baby to try to try to move up the birth canal against gravity in order to be born. What's actually true what's actually best for women and babies is if mothers are encouraged to move around and do very unladylike things labor to lunge to squat pull on the furniture to pull on their husbands or partners to pull on the staff to make guttural Tiger sounds. But I discovered belatedly that the eye of the birthing class you're likely to go to is not going to teach you this because it's likely that you can't know that the person teaching it is actually paid by the hospital and they're teaching you ladylike having found lying on your back because this is actually more convenient for hospitals and more convenient for hospital staff to have you be in excruciating pain. And you know in a position it's bad for the baby. But that's more effortless for them than having you making Tiger sounds in the hallways and pulling on the staff. So this was something that was very disturbing to me to discover.

It should. Due to the birthing industry David has evolved in such a way that it's produced like new fake cosmetic overlays to appeal to women like me and my readers. That is women who want to be self educated self empowered and take responsibility for their birth. There are midwives who are kind of the entry point for Midwest obstetrical practices who really have no powers as what happened to me. But you know women and men flock to them thinking Oh the best of both worlds but they can't they're not told that in fact the middle lives are helpless to intervene. If the doctors do things that they think are unnecessary or destructive they are birthing centers across America like the one that I tried to give birth and which are really fake birthing centers you know equipped with a recliner in a jacuzzi and beautiful beds and you know no technology visibly there in a hospital so there's backup to logically if there's a problem. What you're not told is that this is a marketing lure and that a tiny minority of women actually manage to give birth there.

That in fact it gets you to sign on to the hospital but at the first sign of anything that would allow them to shut you downstairs to the high tech birthing rooms. But they do. So without giving your child labor so these are very cynical practices epidurals if you read what you expect when you're expecting which is the pregnancy Bible an epidural seems like an obvious choice. You know if you want to have agonizing labor or labor without pain but what you're not told is that for every hour you're on an epidural your chance of maternal fever goes up in the double digits and that the drugs make it much more likely you'll have trouble bonding in nursing. Severe infection you mentioned and it's true that our rates are astronomical. But why is that. See the average obstetrician wants to put a laboring woman on a fetal monitor because it gives him or her a defense legally in case there is a lawsuit. But the truth is that after decades of study electronic fuel monitors are shown to have no benefit in predicting

the well-being of the baby the one effect they do have it's raising rates of severe infection. But doctors in hospitals like them for legal reasons. So even though it keeps you on your back and interferes with your labor and really makes it more likely you'll be cut unnecessarily surgically. You're going to have to feel modern in many places. And finally severe infections peak before we can see the holidays. Doctors make a thousand dollars more for surgical births and they do for that actual birth and see that the numbers are so high because. Again because doctors and hospitals have a profit motive to not give women a real trial of labor on there's constant pressure on hospitals to clear the board clear the board why is your patient still there and surgical births easier to process through than healthy normal that children in the last you know example of this really quite horrifying business model of birth that

really makes American birth so damaging to many women in dangerous to babies who are 18 at 21. Worst on the scale of outcomes from babies acknowledging to me. For those of you who don't know what a piece yada means an incision in the Premium about 6 percent of women need to Pisgah Timmy's in in Europe where they know how to support the premium with massage. But in some practice in America about 60 percent of women are going to have a PC enemy. If you read what to expect a book I'm really hard on. They really treat it like a minor routine cut In fact it's a major incision into muscle that can read women with sexual response problems at 2 years after birth. But doctors like it because it's faster not because it's safer to care that you're often steered away from ever risking. Is most often a superficial appearance issue. So these are all practices that are really quite traumatic for women and that many many obstetricians

told me after having read the book. Really they would love to not have to do the you know they say we need to reform the system we don't want to practice medicine so it is not the best way to get healthy births to mothers and babies. And I do believe that these traumatic interventions are one of the reasons that new moms really often go home feeling like they were hit by a truck rather than like they just had one of the most blissful experiences as well but I guess this begs the question if women want things to be different and if at least some doctors want to be thought things to be different then how do things change. Indeed a very good question. One way is better information hospitals as we saw from the shift will certainly the shift away from even more barbaric practices like strapping women down hospitals respond to consumer pressure. Because our system is. Profit driven system when more mothers to be in dads to be seek out the hospitals and doctors and alternative birthing centers which in many ways the best of both worlds.

That really actively respect the right of moms and dads to not be processed down this road. Interventions that help. And that's why I'm proud to say that nanny women and men who are expecting babies have been using my book to change practices even quite far along in their pregnancies to realize that if their caregivers are not respecting their questions not respecting their right to know. It's a more profound problem then they initially thought it was one of the things I discovered was that you or the way you're treated psychologically can have a physical effect on your labor. If it's a caregiver it's rude to you Doctor pressures you. If someone is unkind to you your labor should stand. What I experienced. Even if you're told if you increase that baby in 17 hours with the section your labor is likely to shut down and the more and more women and men are reading my book and thinking well

you know what I don't feel so comfortable with my obstetrician. And that I see now has a medical outcome for me and my baby I'm going to change obstetricians So that's one way to put pressure another way to put pressure is tort reform. Really we need to reform the system so that doctors are not obliged to hook them up to monitors even though they know it's dangerous for them simply because it's the standard of care in their community. In other words a doctor risks losing everything by not hooking a woman up to a monitor even though he or she knows that it's risky for her to do so because of the way the laws are now set up says tort reform will really free doctors substantially to give women decent medical care. You know but you touched on that issue before and I guess that was something that was in my mind we talk about doctors in the way that they. Practice that. That's something that law lawsuits malpractise suits is something they have to be very concerned about because there it does seem to be in the society that we have now that if there's a bad outcome and you know that there are going to be some

that there will be some forks folks at their first inclination is going to be we're going to sue the doctor. Well yeah but let's put it in context. I mean we also live in a society in which as one obstetrician told me a few days ago she understands what parents do because that's the only way they can get the wherewithal to look after the baby. But let's let's put it in a bigger context. Amazingly to me midwives who respect their patient's rights know who explain everything and who don't make promises of what is not physically possible which is I mean is not physically possible to promise parents perfect baby every time you're safer. I discovered on doing research degrees how many organ prison hospitals you're more likely to have a perfect baby if you are not subjected to these interventions. So it's not true that the interventions are safer. But what is amazing to me is that midwives who established contacts of trust with patients get sued far more rarely than obstetricians do. And I

think that really also goes to how. Again Jill chalked a traumatic experience giving birth under ordinary circumstances can be that there isn't that on trust but I agree with you that it's it's it's a deeper problem. Our guest in this part of focus 580 Naomi Wolf. Her book The one that we're talking about here is in part about her experiences with pregnancy and motherhood and those of other women. The title of the book is misconceptions truth lies and the unexpected on the journey to motherhood it's published by Doubleday and questions comments are certainly welcome he'd like to call in here. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5. Another thing that I was really struck by in reading the book and in your efforts to try to get information about as you were talking with doctors and physicians doctors and people who work in the hospitals to try to find out. What's likely to happen. It's difficult to get information on such a

basic question as what your c section rate. You asked that of doctors you ask that of hospitals and it seemed they seemed not inclined to tell you. Well more of the not inclined I mean in many ways it really is. I hate to say that it really is a conspiracy and it is a conspiracy to keep information from you know from women. Again for you no for profit motives. In only two states and I don't think that's too strong a word when I explain exactly what I mean. It's literally impossible here in the Midwest to get information accurate information about how many severe infections are done in a hospital where you are trying to. If you're trying to figure out which hospitals get present or which obstetrical practice to go with they won't tell you they won't tell you the answer. I've had obstetricians calling me you know I rate but not yet one contradicting what I'm saying. And when I ask them what is the Syrian section rate your practice your hospital. They do not tell me they tell me things like well we don't have that data or you know well I can get you that create numbers which could.

Yes I mean they keep data on every billing you know address of every patient passing through so that they can get their fees of course it's easy enough to click the date on with the c section rate if they don't tell you because there really is a conspiracy to keep information from women so that women will not be choosing the hospital with the lowest Sirian rate because that you know for the reasons I described earlier it's in doctors interest in hospital interest to feel that they have a free hand to do unnecessary Syrians. But it's really quite serious because in only two states or are hospitalized disclosed and it's even more serious to me is that women are told things that are not true and not accurate in order to manipulate them. For example I know from having done the research that if you have any and he says you got a 1 in 200 chance of killing the baby basically and went to a presentation at a major New York hospital about in the U.S. And he says and I asked you know the spokeswoman and there were 50 couple

sitting there all of whom were advised to phonies. And he says What is the risk. And she said Oh minuscule risk. You know your baby might come out with a little scratch in its cheeks just from the needle. Now that's just a lie. But the truth is the forces behind that pressure and that sort of false disclosure were it's in hospital's interest to encourage everyone possible to have an amniocentesis because it's in hospitals best interest to never. Have a child brought to term that has a problem but you're not given full information about the what the risks are to your perfectly normal healthy baby of having unnecessary tests like that and I think that that's really immoral. That it may be rationed information again ripping tearing women are often told Oh you want you're bleeding you're going to want an appeal to me read it rather than it's not first oxygen put it a jagged bloody edged appeared to be anus. She said and that is believe me that can care for me.

Yeah you're right. But the truth is that that's not statistically accurate statistically accurate is if we do pretty on the size you'll have a six Chris can't see us of having a PC out in the end and appears likely to be much less serious than a major cut. So I do resent it and I that's why I so much resent because like What to Expect When You're Expecting that you. I now know condescend to women by not giving them complete information. It really treats women like children and suggest that they can't handle honest information. We have a couple callers here I want to bring them into the conversation. Let's do that starting with. I believe a color indicator on our toll free line this will be a line for. Hello hello. Yes I have a question. I had a premature 9 week old premature baby 2 years ago and which I had to have a sister in because he was already on a lie and now when they did the procedure my dad my physician told me that they were forced to do a small vertical incision as well as horizontal in the uterus. So therefore if I have

another baby and I am pregnant now my wrist would be a lot higher for rupture and he would suggest that I indeed do another C-section. I just wanted your thoughts about that. I mean I'm not a specialist. I know there is strong controversy about the risks of repeats as the Ariens I know there was one study that suggested that in fact there is a risk but many midwives I've interviewed challenged their representative sample of that study I don't. Here's what I would have. You do have NSA probably that if you have a horizontal than you you could conceivably go in and do single delivery afterwards you know in a few days or whatever right. Do you have like the old they sort of vertically long time ago which was a higher risk of rupture. KNIGHT Yeah I mean it does sound intuitively like with those two incisions you do have a higher risk of rupture. But I would strongly recommend for you to do is to not only consult

your obstetrician who again has a real vested interest in not not having you go to a trial of labor and it is more of a vested interest in just to point out is the obvious question of liver in my baby now is a different one because I have moved. He is Why didn't you move. It might have been a job. Oh you physically moves I see. I would strongly recommend you also consult an alternative birthing center because I know that many of the 400 alternate birthing centers and you can find out more about them by contacting a midwife. I am that's on a Gascon midwife and the aol dot com. They often do give what are called feedbacks and someone wants additional burns after a severe inspection a trial of labor and as long as you are backed up by a really good hospital. I would think that you should get those opinions to make up your mind about what the risks and benefits. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. I do think it's interesting though you know the reasons that obstetricians now

automatically cut are reasons that our new breech babies both my babies who are breech babies you know midwives regularly deliver breech babies. There's a very easy position to get you want to be what's called a gas can mean you're going to get you on your hands and knees basically and have a very high success rate in delivering breech babies. But obstetricians are no longer taught the manual skills of manipulating babies in you know very common routine quote unquote unusual positions. And so because most obstetricians have never been trained to see an ordinary birth let alone an ordinary birth anything. You know not absolute garden variety in presentation. They literally don't know how to deliver babies the way that an old fashioned family doctors used to know how to deliver babies. You know 50 years ago. You're right. Cry. Good luck sir. Look at the wonderful cry or THANK YOU THANK YOU.

Let's go to another caller. It will be champagne wine Well hello. Hi. My situation is somewhat similar to the first caller I just recently found out that I'm pregnant and this is going to be my second child. My question though is I did have some complications with my first child when he was being born he was born seven weeks premature bed rest for a couple weeks before that. First of all what is your what is your opinion as far as being put on bedrest if you are at risk for premature labor. And also do you think it is still a safe idea to go to an alternative birthing center if you know that you are at a higher risk but your second time. What was the reason for the complications was the reason for the difference. That year I was having premature contractions and also I was already dilating at 35 weeks. Yeah I wouldn't miss with that. Honestly I mean I know that those are seriously don't you know we don't want to have premature. We don't have premature babies and so I guess what I get the message I want to give a human a color

for is that you know all evidence suggests that an alternate prison center can safely deliver women who do not have high risk conditions like claims like like the IDF you know older mothers and you know the backs of the kind that are sick and I'm sorry women who are trying to have national disaster for sections Syrian section. Not as a kind of scholar desire of my birth my first birth was a badge and a birth I didn't have to have a fair infection I guess what I'm trying to say I'm not a doctor so I can't advise you on the specifics of this except to say I would definitely consult an alternative birthing center and an independent childbirth educator because all the studies now show that their outcomes are better than hospital at times for many many conditions of labor and birth and that the answers you're going to get are more objective in many ways. So I'm sorry that I can't be

more helpful. But I really recommend you get a second opinion from an independent birthing center an independent childbirth educator. Ok Great well thank you very much. All right let's go we have another caller here one might guess which feeling that the lack of a medical degree with you that's life and very important question. Well it's you know it's funny as I said. We have every every month year we've been doing a show on women's health with a local o b g y and we've been doing it for 20 years something like that 15 17 years in fact she was just here Monday so she could have fielded these questions that perhaps that maybe there would be a reason the callers would want to ask her out and it in it's oh wow wow Doctor I'm sorry. That's right a radical suggestion. Sure. It's great that you have an obstetrician but it would be incredibly helpful for these listeners for you to have a midwife because the obstetrical view of labor is a minority view I mean basically from a bit with three prospective obstetricians are great for the 17 percent of births which is a problem. But the the the problem is that they treat

all low risk births as if they're high risk. So yes they have the pressures on their answers that you've you've heard described earlier so I would really encourage you to think about that as another voice we can we can definitely do that. I think I have another caller here on line number two probably. Yes I'm here. Yes I were worked as a labor and delivery nurse in Alaska and I do not agree with a lot of what you have said I wish I was taking note but I found that the doctors and the nurses both often had patients walking in the hallways. We tried to do pelvic rock. We did fetal monitoring. But as long as the lady wanted to be out of bed and wanted to be moving around we sometimes use telemetry so that we could monitor the baby. Sometimes we did monitoring five minute per hour just to have an idea of how things were going. I just really really disagree with a lot of the things that you said I do not take the

attitude that obstetricians treat all deliveries as high risk. I yeah I just. So you're saying your experience is different. From what the guest just oh yeah very much so. And one thing that I haven't heard you say is that with the rate of knowing until the child is 21 years of age the parents can sue a nurse or a doctor for anything that happens during the birth and until that child is 25 years of age that child can sue. Yes. Well it really makes a nurse want to be responsible and make good decisions and take good care of that woman. And that doesn't determine whether or not they get out of the bed or not but that does mean proper monitoring proper charging that if any. But he comes back from that nurse or the doctor. They have their records and the idea that there's

too much monitoring and that they have everybody flat on their back and that is completely incorrect. OK let me speak to each of your points. Thank you so much for that. You know the passion that you obviously bring to this and I'm sure I'm sure your wonderful nurse and I'm sure that your patients were lucky to have you. And I know that your patients were lucky to give birth in a hospital which is in the minority that does encourage women to move around. Most women who give birth in America do give birth in bed. If you look at the videos the standard videos are shown in Britain classes the women are in bed. So I'm delighted that the hospital in Alaska is so progressive and I applaud you completely. I'm glad you used to Emma treat that the way of monitoring the baby that lets women move around. But I also think you did confirm two things that are not so great and you've added you know additional insight from your point of view. Obviously if the pressure were not there on nurses and doctors who I say with complete empathy could lose

everything by a lawsuit for the quarter century that you just described that they're at risk after babies born. Obviously they would practice medicine differently. You talked about proper monitoring. All the studies are in that show that there is no such thing as proper electronic fetal monitoring that is not telemetry. That means people monitoring where women are lying down strap to monitor. Because the monitors have no proven benefit except as a legal defense and they do as I am going to repeat they do have the consequence of being much more likely to rush a woman into an un necessary Syrian surgery. And with all respect I really encourage you to look at misconceptions because all the data is in mothers and babies are worse off with these interventions that are dictated by the pressures you just described they are worse off we are 18 out of 21 for bad outcomes for mothers and babies because of the risks attached to monitoring attached to high severe infection rates attached

unnecessary epidural forceps delivery and interpretation of like say late the south consistent rate on a fetal heart monitor strip. Does that not indicate the stress of a incident of a fetus. All the all the data that is in it indicates that the monitors are no better than chance at indicating a problem. And please understand I totally support severe infections that are necessary. I just think that if we had a situation in America in which three times the number of heart surgeries were being done on men then were necessary. That would be a serious problem. Not to mention how much more difficult it is for new moms to take care of a little tiny baby under the circumstances that I described earlier. Well still recovering from major organ surgery I mean one thing women are not told when they read what to expect is that a severe infection is not minor surgery. You know they take in so many cracks. The cake the uterus right out of your body. It is a major

organ surgery it's not a you know a lifestyle choice the way it's presented and what to expect. And yeah I do think that you and your colleagues would be better supported if you didn't have those legal swords hanging over your head. Let me ask you one question What is the Syrians actually in your hospital. I don't remember it was a high risk hospital it was really the main hospital it was in Anchorage. So cover the whole state of Alaska and also northern British Columbia and Canada so we had a lot of high risk stuff. And even though we had a lot of high risk stuff we still did not treat our low risk pregnancies like they were high risk. I mean we saw the high risk all the time and we were able to be again. Have about it all. I appreciate that and let me tell you how much I appreciate your work and the hospital decision making in that regard. At the same time as a woman as a mom and as a feminist I find it really distressing that you can't tell me

as a spokeswoman saying hospital what the severe infection rate is. It's a simple number to reach. I also want to tell you for your information that every time I've asked the spokesperson to Stanning hospital practices what their severe infection rate is every single time routinely I've been told oh it's a high risk hospital high risk population. In fact there isn't a hospital yet that of the didn't say Well our numbers the implication for listeners who are not sure what. Let's take yours. The numbers are artificially high because we deal with a high risk population. It can't be that every hospital has put this question to deal with the high risk population that skews the numbers. And I do think I do think your hospital as fabulous as it sounds in many ways. So is it your community to be able to tell people something as basic as what the chances are that they're likely to be sectioned. I'm going to have to jump in here and I hope that the caller will forgive me because we're simply at the point where we're going to have to stop and we have some other people we can take. There's one question if you'll forgive me for for asking. It's just something that I've wondered for a long time that I just want to ask real quick and you know when when beauty myth came out we talked about it here on the show

and I'm sure which I'm sure you would not remember in all the interviews that you've done but something like I actually do really well you know that's awful and appreciate that there's some. I've always wondered the there was no picture of you on the book. Was that intentional. But your picture was left with options. The Beauty Myth of your your pictures are misconceptions and most books the picture of the authors there I was just wondering about whether in fact it was it was intentional on somebody's part that on Beauty Myth there was no picture of you. You know if it was 10 years ago I honestly don't remember. I think it's possible that when the book came out in Britain so much of pointless attention was paid to the picture that we made the decision to focus on on the text. But subsequent You know people back as teacher like OFFICER Can I just say one thing we haven't gotten to Durrance is that a you know a sort of of misconceptions does have to do with what happens after you bring the baby home. And something we want to change get into but it's a rich

subject that readers are really responding to is the shock of discovering especially if you have a pretty balanced relationship pretty equitable relationship. The shock of this. Everyone wants to be becomes home these equitable relationships quickly revert to traditional relationships and I do trace in details the way the baby kind of acts as them. It creates a kind of upheaval in many marriages. I mean you mean in many relationships that leaves New moms being startled and filled with frankly a lot of resentment at how what they thought was fair balanced partnership turns into a traditional arrangement and I track where that resentment goes and how it plays out. And I have a mother's manifest at the end which is really for mothers and fathers about how we can create a movement really a political lobby to give moms and dads the kind of social change they need so that family life will not be strained by the arrival of a new baby that will actually be better supported.

Well I want to thank you very much for talking with us today. We appreciate you and our guest Naomi Wolf and again the title of the book if you'd like to read it it's misconceptions truth lies and the unexpected on the journey to motherhood it is out now it's published by Doubleday.