Focus 580; Issues in Lighting Design

And this morning we're going to do something that is again something that effects your energy usage in your home may also affect how comfortable a place that it it seems to be. And yet something that does not get a lot of attention and that is lighting. And we'll talk this morning with Nancy clam She's been with us before on this program to talk about this very topic. She has been for a number of years now the president of Clanton engineering. She's a graduate of University of Colorado with a degree in architectural engineering. She is a registered as a professional engineer in the state of Colorado and has been a project principal on hundreds literally hundreds of lighting electrical projects. She's also taught courses and seminars about lighting at University of Colorado. She's a member of a number of different sorts of organizations that applied to her field including international association. Lighting designers She's also served as on the board of directors of the illuminating Engineering Society of North America so she knows a lot about lights and lighting and would be very happy I'm sure to answer

whatever questions that folks would have here this morning on the show. So all you have to do if you like call in is pick up the telephone dial the number here in Champaign Urbana. It's 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. And we do also have a toll free line. That one's good to anywhere that you can hear us. So it would be a long distance call for you to use that number and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 so locally here three three three WRAL and the toll free 800 to 2 to WY 11. Well Ms Clinton Hello how are you. I'm fine thanks and thank you once again for talking with us to properly appreciate it. One thing I just thought we could chat a little bit about here as we get going and I think we have one at least one caller here getting lined up is. And something that we've talked about before on the program and that is the compact fluorescents. They have gotten. A lot of attention in the in the press because they use

less energy and I know they're available. I've seen them in catalogs and so forth. And yeah I wonder have they really caught on. And I kind of think the answer is well not really. And I'm sort of wondering why it does I just have to do with people kind of staying with what they're used to. I think it's a combination of things and they are catching on in California and I'm sure that many of you are aware of the energy crisis in California but California has extremely strict energy codes that they want to take killer that deals with lighting is called Title 24 and in title 24 It basically says that most of your residential lighting needs to be efficient. And they give a certain fish and sea level which the standard fluorescent or compact fluorescent follows them to. So I'm hoping that with the kind of the demand of California that more lighting manufactures will make

many of the decorative walls God says or pendants or even that the decorative ceiling mount luminaires in compact fluorescents. But we are receiving a lot more especially in the the tour Cher. Remember a few years ago that the big swing and a lot of the department stores was to buy tours share for thirty nine ninety nine. And they were extremely hazardous because they had a 500 watt CTS and I once saw an egg being fried on top of one of those. And there were so many house fires and curtains being caught on fire that many dormitories and universities banned them from dorms. And so the manufacturers quickly went to a fluorescent alternative where you could get three levels of light you know the low medium and high that we're all used to in many of our table lamps and that's catching on. So that may be not the way that that we all become familiar with the compact

florescent built kind of. The safety concern with those tore shares and how much energy they really use and getting us safe alternative with a compact florescent. Now remember I think it was the last time that we called. I think in the news there was some concern about people who had these lights and who decided they wanted the light to be a little bit more dim they were taking pieces of fabric and draping them over the light. Yeah which was just it just a recipe for disaster because as you say they they put out a lot of heat and a lot of fire started way back. And I you know I would caution your listeners to if they do see these tungsten halogen or CTs Taurus shares you know they may be lured in by their low initial price but if you do have an archery calculation on it you're paying almost that much per month for the energy cost on them because there's so many fish and so be careful even though that compact

fluorescent alternative may look like it's double the price it's definitely worth it. And safety wise too. OK. Well we do have a caller here we'll get right to our line number one. You know we were working our family farm house which is owned by the current generation of the words multiple people and we were trying to do a kitchen remodel by committee. I was amazed at the. Strongly held beliefs by people about the kind of lighting a thing did or didn't like some people don't like. Overhead lights. Period. I don't understand understand what's going on there other people hate fluorescent and wouldn't even consider a fluorescent light and so no we haven't we just tend to have the same picture that's been there in this range environment as for probably since shortly have hundreds of a house.

What's going on here do you have any thoughts. Yeah let a lease address a fluorescent issue. I there is a phobia out there about fluorescent lighting that I don't know if it's going to go away sound or whatever but I feel really sorry for the fluorescent light and all the abuse it's gotten. It's not that the fluorescent lamp or light bulb that's causing the problem it's the the igniter are what we call the ballast behind it. And if you've got an old make magic ballast which a lot of people associate with shop light. They they make the lights turn on and off one hundred twenty times a second you know which is 60 cycles. And some people are really sensitive to that flickering in their peripheral vision. You know five to 10 percent of the population can see their preview of it flickering. And in addition

because he's old ballasts are made magic and they have blinding set up that they buzz in they have and then the color of the old fluorescents are up noxious and all their make everyone look blue and green. Well fortunately all of those things have been solved with today's technology. And having electronic ballasts that do not consume energy they run into you know 50000 hertz or 35000 to 50000 hertz so the flickering is the buzzing the humming is gone we can now dim the lights easily and the colors of the lights. Can equal the same color as an incandescent cell. That's number one issue is this phobia about fluorescent lighting am and that today's technology does provide solutions that we've done experiments and doing whole homes with fluorescent lighting and people haven't even recognized it at all. But back to the issue of the kitchen

lighting. Yes I've heard all that too. And what I like to do in kitchen lighting is to actually have the ambient light be hidden so that you can't see where the light's coming from. And one trick that will do is we'll put again the good electronic fluorescent strips above the cabinets if you can and lay them on top. And put a little face at the front of the cabinet. So that you get a nice soft indirect light. And then put an under counter light that can be task oriented and it kind of fills the whole kitchen with light. With that task oriented and you can still keep the historic and great color historic kitchen lighting there and put it on a dam or dam it down and then the whole be achieved not only added so much more light to the kitchen but you've kept that obvious that people have associated that farmhouse kitchen with this with that overhead light.

So that's a suggestion. Make everybody win and a happy thought about putting them over to be an interesting idea. But make sure when you go to the hardware store or wherever that you and sit down an electronic ballasts and a key a lamp which is a fluorescent lamp and also asked for 3000 degree Kelvin color temperature. And what that is that's a color temperature that is similar to an incandescent. So you got to get all those three combinations. I've been having an argument with with one of our planners who wants to put in track lighting. And we have track lighting in our own home but my feeling is that that mainly is for task lighting. It doesn't really light up the room. You're right in shadows right track lighting is an accent lighting system. It is to highlight something on the wall. It is not an

ambient lighting system. It is not general lighting. You are absolutely correct. Plus in an old kitchen and a farmhouse kitchen It just seems inappropriate. It doesn't fit the obvious of what a farmhouse kitchen would be. So I agree with you I think that would not work. I wanted to say two different lighting subject we have an old torch here. That was my grandparents and it had a mobile base which took a very fat three way based lightbulb and years ago when. Fluorescents first came out for an adaptation to sockets. I got a Circle Line lamp with a socket adapted. I mean with a. Standard sized you know what you call the end of a light bulb that goes into the socket for the station to sit there if you call that thing and adapted the. There are adapters for mobile bases and you know I have never ever replace

that fluorescent bulb I replaced all kinds of other fluorescents in our house every couple of years but I have never ever replace that one and that one's been in there for I don't know how long this is for us and complex have been going on 15 years. It basically will last five to six times longer than your incandescent I use this lamp every day is that grade and this keeps going and going and going on a roof. Same thing I have compact fluorescents is up lighting. I've got a two story area in my home and I use it for up lighting and we bought the house 6 years ago and I've only replaced one lamp and we use them all you know every night. So that's the advantage of the compact florescent not only is it using minimal and energy the life of the lamp is so much longer. Some of the newer contacts I have. Not had as good experience with it as with this other one.

But yes I won one little trick of buying compact fluorescents. Make sure that you go to one of the top three lamp manufactures U.S. light manufacturers. Be very careful about off shore brands because they are not made to the same standards as the U.S. brands and that that could be a different kind of lured in going boy this is half the price of this other one. But there's a reason why it's half the price. And so be very careful when you buy your compact florescent that it is a U.S. made you know it recognizable lamp manufacture. I also wanted to say that there's a lamp manufacturers Lampy that is sold a lot around here and I had put some of those in rental property bathrooms and they were a pain in the butt because they have a little starter that you have to replace every time you replace libel and it makes a tremendous noise when it starts to die. Oh boy. Yeah I hadn't realized how bothersome this would be especially in that

kind of a circumstance. Because people don't realize that the starters there needs to be replaced in that they can't make the lamps work that replace my old. So it's not always been as if things were just standard. Anyway thanks very much for your help. You're welcome. Thank you should be the act. Thanks Richard. I was really you know one of the things that I was looking at it and it looked at some information about about the compact fluorescents and one of the things that's really striking here I have for example some here's some information this comes from the U.S. Department of Energy from a site they have with consumer information on an energy use and lighting and so forth and here they they have some data comparing a 100 watt incandescent bulb with a 27 watt compact fluorescent. And what it is this is this information they say this assumes the light's going to be on for six hours a day. And the cost of course is if there's a big difference the incandescent bulb cost 50 cents and the

compact fluorescent in this particular case cost 14 bucks. However the life of the lamp the incandescent one hundred sixty seven days. The compact florescent four and a half years. So in the end when you take a look at the the total cost including the energy to burn the lamp and to and to purchase at the total cost of the incandescent is over $100. The sole cost of the compact florescent is a little over 40. Yes and if you're absolutely right it is that once you get over the initial sticker shock of buying the more expensive lamp it lasts forever and I can't think of anything more frustrating than half light bulbs burnt out at the wrong time and you have to find a way out or in all of this and that's the other wonderful thing about compact fluorescents is how long they last. Well our guest this morning in a spot of focus is lighting engineer Nancy clay. She's president of Clanton engineering and she lives in Colorado in Boulder

and has been with us before here on the program to talk about these very sorts of issues issues in lighting design. If you have questions about lighting either about the sort of the idea that is how do you think about what kind of lighting is best how to place it and so forth or the sort of hardware kind of questions I know she'll do her best to give me an answer here in Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We have another caller here also local on our line number two. Hello. Yes I want to if you could sort of compare and contrast the the really compact fluorescents that are about the size of a regular light versus the ones that have a larger circular you know lamp or more almost the size of a regular fluorescent light. But have the small electronic ballasts in the middle like a compact fluorescent and things like those you get more lumens per watt. But are there disadvantages on the size.

Well I mean the reason why you use the two different sizes and shapes is the type of lighting fixture you have. The smaller ones were designed specifically to replace a standard incandescent light ball. And but there is far is the efficiency of getting light out of them. They are not as well designed as something like the previous caller was talking about. The Circle Line lamp used in them in a tor share. Or if you have an overhead ceiling fixture that is you know a glass fixture that's mounted in the middle of the ceiling. Again the larger compact florescent is going to be a much better choice for that. See they're all designed I mean there are probably thousands of different shapes wide edges. Some have two small tubes and some of you know we call the turn. Both tubes are quad true to the Circle Line squares you name it they have it.

And so yes the larger the wattage of the lamp the more we say efficacious which means it puts out more light for energy Watt and that you've got the it's all an application what are you using compact florescent for and you know if it's a one for one replacement then you probably need to select something that's a similar shape as to the lamp you're taking out because of the size of the fixture. If either you are starting with a clean ceiling and you want an overall area lighting for utility work area where there ever be a reason to choose a fixture using one of their clients most are like that over a larger say a four foot floor. No I would pick the 4 foot fluorescent fixture and a lot has to do with it. It is the Ball State Fish and lamp. We can't get one with electronic ballasts but a very expensive device.

Well yes it's probably it. Sense of you're probably going to pay a hand to $15 more for the electronic ballast. And but the color the energy usage is much better and the lamp replacement cost is a fraction compared to compact florescent in the example described from the Department of Energy. The $14 cost for the compact florescent you could probably buy a 4 foot 8 lamp you know of excellent color rendition for two to three dollars and sell. And in the life of the forefoot lamp is a lot greater than the compact fluorescent. We are not talking about 20000 hours which could last 10 years for the type of work so you would essentially never burn out with. With the occasional residential use and the type of lighting fixtures are less expensive.

Because it's the most prevalent type of lighting in in the commercial sector you're going to get your best pricing from it. OK so basically you're going to come back for us and you'd really only use them in situations where the you have a lamp that needs that are cracked or in decorative luminaires or lighting fixtures which would be Scott says attendance portières. But if you're using just general lighting and a garage or utilitarian space I would definitely put in a four foot linear fluorescent lamp. Would you pick four foot over over a foot. Yes I would pick four foot over eight foot mostly because when you get to the G-8 lay up the eight foot remember the slam is only 1 inch diameter. And it's extremely fragile. Pulling it out of the box even getting it home an eight foot lamp is tough to fit in your car. Are the four foot lamp is going to be the least expensive.

And again have the most Friday with ballast and lighting fixture type of it and is there rule of thumb of how many lumens per square foot or so. Not really. You could I mean the simple formula is you take the lumens on the package of the lamp and you divide by the area and then you maybe multiply that answer by 50 percent efficiency. You know because light's absorbed and not all the lights getting all the lighting fixture. I mean for a residential. Project that's what I would do if the lumens of the lamp divided by the area take that answer. Multiply by point 5. And you look at the candle. And I would pay for a workspace you would need about 50 foot candles. That's a lot of that. How much do I need. Yeah right.

OK thanks a lot and I think you have a go. We're already at the midpoint here. And I guess I just issued interesting and real quick we're talking with Nancy Clanton of Clanton engineering incorporated in Boulder Colorado she's a lighting engineer and every once in a while we take on this special topic. We expect people would have some questions about lighting how to use it efficiently how to get the most out of it so that the spaces are lit the way you like them. And also that you're using that small amount of energy possible you have questions about lighting give us a call 3 3 3 or 9 4 5 5 and toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Next up is again someone locally here I think line number one. How do you do. Yes I have a question about. Fluorescent light versus high pressure sodium for a garden. Like I start my plants down in the basement for the spring. Aha. And I've used in the past and I use about say four feet of light like four or four to

the big tubes per four feet of area. OK. And I was wondering which would be more efficient in terms of the total number of lumens vs. cost. Talk about the initial startup costs. Yes you can get a couple of those. What I was singing about doing was getting like one hundred fifty watt high pressure sodium is and getting those. I guess they're security fixtures. Right. Right. I would not do the high pressure sodium really has nothing to do with energy or anything like that. It has to do. And for those if you don't know what a high pressure sodium is it's that orange light that is used in the street light. And the reason why the high pressure sodium does not produce green and blue light. It only produces mostly Orange some yellow and some red. And we have done quite a bit of work in experiments in greenhouses. The only time that

I've heard high pressure sodium is turned on in greenhouses is to promote the blooming upper OSes. It's a special time when the Rose needs more orange light a red light. What I'm worried about is with plants if you're trying to start seeds or whatever I mean they're green and they absorb. They really need the fall light spectrum and the fluorescent lamp is going to give that to you vs. a high pressure sodium. Would you add the high pressure sodium in addition to it. It doesn't really help. It's basically the fluorescent is going to give you all of the light that you need. And efficiency wise the fluorescent is almost as efficient as a high pressure sodium and the other advantage of it. It's more of a linear source so you're going to evenly light the plant instead of concentrating all the light in one area. You know all the plants may look at it

and instead of I mean it's not really like the sun because plants use sky glow also for growing. And the blue content from the sky glow which is blue and green light and the sun produces most of the red light male the longer wavelength light. So it's that combination and I'm afraid to use a light source that is missing. Colors of light like red and blue and what that would do to your plants weather would stress them out. So I think you're absolutely correct in what you're doing already and it is the least expensive. You know alternative is the florescent. Like have you noticed how cheap they've gotten. The high pressure sodium the high pressure so it is expensive. Yes homes are expensive and they're hot or acid about starting a fire. But like when you go to the store now you can get it for like seven dollars and fifty cents. One of those shop lights and you know why they're trying to get rid of the shop

lights because they probably have those old ballasts and I had to yell to make panic Dowsett nobody wants anymore. Well it's in the basement so I can hear it. Yeah exactly but what I'm saying is that it's it that. I think that's one reason why they're inexpensive. Because the banya faction years really have no use for the magnetic ballasts and plus with the 1992 Energy Act they can't manufacture make magic Dallas anymore and so they can only manufacture electronics and they're basically trying to get rid of the inventory of the magnetic ballasts for so did the Ex-White are cheap and for your purpose it absolutely ideal. I have to give a kudos. Like I listen to every day and I would have to say that they're the smartest listeners. Like if you listen to other talk radio and it is out there it is like a forum for all the ignorant people in the world to spread their stupidity. Public radio and just like a wave.

Well that's very kind. I appreciate it. That's what that's what we're hoping for. All right well let's go on to another call here someone locally line number three. Well I guess my question has been partly answered I'm shopping for compact fluorescents with the base at all a little bit into existing overhead glass you know. Is there such a thing or they all have that big ceramic space. Oh the ceramic base is the ballast. And what that does is it. It's designed so that you can unscrew the incandescent lightbulbs and screw in the compact fluorescent. But that makes it to sit in. Now there are some that are very small. I mean you can get like a 9 WATT I mean they they come in seven

watts nine Watts 11 watts you can get like a quad 2 which is four small tubes very squaddie. Or. You may want to look at the Circle Line which has that that base in the mid all of a fluorescent tube that's in the circle. And those come in different diameters that may be another solution or the low wattage ones the ones that you do. You think our moon not as efficient as the right the lower the wattage the less efficient it's going to be. The existing overheads are on a dimmer at work with no not not with the standard take up the lamp and put another lamp pan type of situation it will not work with the DMR. What you

have to do if you've got a dimmer situation is replace the lighting fixture with a ballast that is intercall with the lighting fixture and then is just a lamp that pops in and out and the way you could always tell if your lighting fixture can be damned. And they have to be with a fluorescent dam or it can just be with your standard incandescent dimmer the lamp 4:30 p.m. and that space saying half staff or pants if it only has two pans. You cannot dim the lit the fluorescent compact florescent have to have for pants. Thank you. Well I think I best get what I want to make sure that I under I understand this know what you're talking about is all of this has to do with the the light the. Not the fixture but the light that you put in it that that. Or are you saying that it has that also the fixture itself matters in terms of whether you condemn it or not.

Know that the fixture doesn't. Ok what it is. It's the ballast and the lamp. Ok or the light. Very technically we call light bulbs lamps. Yeah keep calling it that I oppose. But the light bulb it self is so you need two things to happen in order to to damn or actually three things. The lightbulb has to have four pins in it. You need a damning electronic ballast and then the dam or on the wall have to be for fluorescent lighting. So those are the three combinations and it sounds complicated but most decorative luminaires are lighting fixtures that are furnished with compact fluorescents. Do come as an option with the dimmable ballast and then the lamp of course. The socket the only lamp you could put in it is a light ball with four pins in it.

OK got that straight. Let's go to line number four. In Lake Zurich. Hello hello yes I have a question this is very appropriate timing with this walk through a house that were building yesterday with an electrician. Talking about leaving the house and there are a number of issues about recessed can lights and where to use them and where appropriate were not appropriate and how much light they give off. OK. For instance in the kitchen there are eight can live where I had a lighting consultant because the center one needs to be there for the amount of because of the shadows that the surrounding cams will create. All the electricians That's nonsense can go on a nine foot ceiling. Give you great overall light. And they're more cost efficient and all you have just hit on my favorite subject. I must've told you to call us now.

I cannot stand cam life. I'll just tell her that. If I look at what we have done to lighting over the last few years. Down lighting in the ceiling is the most unnatural way to light a space especially a home. If you look back on Priya like true city everything was done from candles which is either on the wall or on the table where the light hit our face in a natural way. If you stand underneath that candle light and look at somebody you'll notice that there's shadows. It's very harsh on the eyes. All the lights directional. What you need them in a home is to light surfaces which is the ceiling the walls the everything but the floor. And why people are in the system in the home and taking this a natural light and aiming at straight down to the floor and if any of you have can lights in your hall try and talk to

someone with that light overhead and the glare from it. I am a proponent of doing everything but camera lights. The challenge is to put lights in like I described to the lady with the farmhouse. Right. Put lights. Aimed up at the ceiling put in Wafa conses your life designers. Absolutely right you need a surface light. Not necessarily because there isn't enough light from the can lights it's a quality of light and to get rid of these points of glare that are up in the ceiling that are very very unnatural. So I'm one for using a lot of wall mounted light lights aimed up at the ceiling and some lights that glow from the ceiling mounted lights are decorative. That push light in all directions but you can damage to get the right OB beyond then to put in maybe some track lighting which would aim at artwork on the walls and again any way of getting more light on the walls in the

ceiling and less light on the floor because your home just feels cold and unnatural. So I really challenge your lighting plan and think of how can I do this without cam lights and all this like going straight down to making everyone look ghastly. And then I have to look at the example in the Male Survey out. You know they were talking about Cam vs. wall mounted fixtures and. And I was in favor of the wall mounted Sixers and in a bathroom situation you're talking about whether which direction the lights go in that situation you would know because I know there's the ones where the. Fixture is up vs. down for a bathroom fixture right. Would you in that case though want the lights directed more down over the sink and mirror area. Well no not really what you want of the light to hit your face. OK and the wall mounted lights to make them go out always. You know whether it's glass or

something but you want light on either side to hit evenly like your face. If it comes from all over had it. Again it's very unnatural and I would definitely go with the wall mount for it was my feeling there and on either side that me or any a lot of it. OK. Well thank you very much. Well thanks for the call. Have about 10 minutes left here in this part of focus 580 we're talking. Lighting engineer Nancy Clanton She's president of Clanton engineering in Boulder Colorado and has been with us here before the program to answer these kinds of questions well it takes many folks as we can in the time that's left 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 here in Champaign Urbana toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Another local color here. This would be Lie number two. Hello I have a question you raise for us and it's over time.

Thanks a lot. You know loyalty like power candles candle power to you experience over here. The first year with the fluorescent lights in the break we call this special name is called lumen depreciation. And the fluorescent lamp compared to almost any other lamp or light light bulb is has the bass that's light I'll put the best over any other type of lighting system. And usually drop to maybe down to 70 percent of its initial light output but that's over the entire life of the lamp and that the curve kind of starts off pretty you know it's not a steep curve at all. It's near the end of the life that the light output drops and then they burn out when they're about 70 percent. For if you look at an incandescent light bulb. If they start blackening because the tungsten burns off and blackened the bald

itself that's why the incandescent lamp has a lot of drop or a great lumen depreciation because of that blackening a tungsten halogen or quartz light has a lot less because it's designed to prevent ball blackening. So it keeps its lumen output but with the standard lights a fluorescent is actually one of the best out of all of all weapons. Virgin or for the for. Global conventional wisdom was that you a 50 percent of your loading during the first year and apparently what you're saying is that that's not so. No it's not so it's going to happen and again when you look at the light bulb on the package you will give the life of the lamp and that's actually defined when half of your light bulbs have burned out and but you could basically use that and again it's near that the

last half of the life of the lamp that it starts depreciating greater but it still never really gets below 70 percent of its initial light output. Still if you were to switch your bones every two or three years five or six. You probably can't be uniformly. Absolutely. I had one other question moved Shoprite noticed a number of them and going to replace the ballast from the room. Yes you can and that's what I do all the time. I buy the cheap shop lights and then putting on a better lamp because you may that the layout of the white ball that comes with that. If it has a key 12 designation on it. It's the older type lamp than what you want is it to be 8 pm so you have to do it with and yes with the new ballasts exactly Now fortunately it fits in the same socket.

I mean you just you just replace the lamp and replace the ballast so you could buy the inexpensive shop light housing. Replace lamp a ballast and got a whole new system and as I understand it the instant much more of it. Absolutely the bulbs more efficient and lower and lower and what. Yes and the Balts are more efficient. And yeah it's but it's mostly the combination. The BB and ballast combination you will go from about I think a standard 4 foot P 12 make magic ballast. Operates at about forty six watts. And if you go to the TV 8 electronic you're at 30 watts with equal or more light output and much better color to the room would be helpful. Well thank you or Thank you. We'll go next to Downes and a caller here on line number one. Hello hello. I've got can lights.

And actually I like them because they are task lights there over the kitchen but your block encounter area is the thing that I don't like about them is that they're very hot in the summer. Yes. Now is there a fluorescent that you can use in those you can look casually and I never see them and I've given up. Well what I would do instead of using a fluorescent and those do you choose to have like a standard light bulb with no scam lights no it's a it's a flood. OK but if the flood does it have kind of a rounded adage or does it look more like a car headlight. You know with with the the the silver eyes reflector. Yeah comes all the way down to the edge right. The circle which type 2 1/2. Well it's a silver on the back and it's kind of rounded you know at the edge. But it's it's bright writerly flat surface and it rounds off

OK. What you have there called are lamps for who knows. I can remember the designation. I would suggest going with the lower wattage and going with a parlay up p a r. OK there are parts 30. Or apart 20 I mean depending on the size of your can. OK you can go with the more wattage what this does. Bill's arm lamps are extremely inefficient. OK. How weird where does something say that it's an Arlen. It's it's it's it's probably on the lettering on the lamp itself but the wave described the shape to me. I'm pretty sure it's an R lamp. OK I'm looking I'm looking at a replacement lamp right now my thing is train me to call these lamps and I don't see anything it's as longer life. There's an A was

some kind of symbol beside it. Mrs. S. P. 64 I watch her in 20 volts. There's an O with a line under it. OK that's it. OK but it doesn't see a p a r anywhere no. OK OK here it is. Our 30 are 30. OK so it is in our lamp. Right right. Replace your lamps with Par lamps. OK which are they available just sort of. If I go down to it you can get hotter 30s anywhere. OK have to go on 40 and that what it what those designations are after the par in the R.. It's the diameter in eighth of an ant ch. OK so a par 30 is a little smaller and it will fit. Or you could go higher. There are thirty eight. And again you could go it's going to be more directional. You're going to get born light out of it. It's going to be more

efficient. And therefore you can go with a lower wattage. But I would experiment with either a flood or a medium flood or maybe a spot. I made a comment all different beam spreads which is nice with the car she has a variety. OK now is that going to say on the box I have to say yes it will like I did just like it said our 40. It will say par 30 or par 38. You know this is our 30. OK our 30 ok they do you need a par 30. OK. And but I had to really search for this right. It should say it on the box. OK thank you very much. Not a damn or two which is easy to do. OK. And that will help with the heat also. Oh you know extend the life a lot. I really like the light. Yeah but you don't you'll actually like the part about her because it will be more directional. And when you're using as a task flight you know you're trying to

get a lot of flight on a surface you do not want to floodlight. OK OK I'll try it out. OK. Oh I will try and get one more here real quick. In the Belgium line three. Hello hello. Yes since I'm the last caller maybe my comments might be very nice. I think we should save light as much as we can because our atmosphere is being polluted a very great deal. Now I know your topic here has been indoor lighting but we can carry it all over. There's much too much light that goes into the atmosphere destroys or night on balance is very important to many and some species. Well I'm sure I'm sure that as as the guest I was at one time maybe still is on the board of directors of the International Dark Sky Association I expect you would agree. Thank you. Really great. Yeah in fact our company is absolutely devoted to the dark skies and we are helping communities and this a pal to use right lighting ordinances and try.

Control of the Opera transmittance of light. And also over lighting things I mean if you've ever driven into one of these new service stations I can hardly call them baby gas dispenser stations. It's a real problem I'm also chairman of the outdoor environmental committee for the lighting technical society. We just wrote a new recommended practice of like trespassing light pollution. So I completely agree with you that our outdoor lighting needs a lot of help. Well given the only interest we had this morning I think we should say we should not wait so long between visits so maybe another four five six months or so we could do this again we could talk some more. Sounds great. Well we appreciate you giving us your time we think or make you a very good call. Our guest Nancy Clanton She is president of Clinton engineering in Boulder Colorado she is a lighting engineer occasionally is with us to talk about this this very

topic.