Focus 580; Nuclear Weapons Freeze

Sane freeze which is now the country's largest peace organization with a membership of over one hundred eighty thousand people. This group is based in Washington D.C. and was formed a couple of years ago when two other groups merged. That was the Committee for a sane nuclear policy and the nuclear weapons freeze campaign. Let me tell you a little bit more about our guest this morning. He was born in New York City. He studied at Yale when he started out there he was studying music and his studies were interrupted by the Second World War. He served for a time in the U.S. Army as a liaison officer to the French and the Russian armies. He returned to Yale in 1907 and graduated with a degree in government. He worked from 1050 until 53 for the CIA. He returned to United States in 1953 and entered Yale Divinity School. He graduated from there in 1957 he was named chaplain of Yale University and held that post for 18 years. During those years he also served as an advisor to the Peace Corps and as a co-founder of clergy and laity concerned for

Vietnam. He has for the past 25 years been a strong presence in the civil rights and peace movements and he became senior minister of Riverside Church in New York City in 1977 and found its disarmament program shortly thereafter. Last July he announced that he'd be stepping down from that post and gave his last sermon there in December and with the new year became president of saying freeze and is now out on a national speaking tour. Now we're very pleased to have him with us this morning. And as we talk you are you folks who are listening are also invited to talk with us to call in if you have comments or questions. Our telephone number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. And we also have a toll free line that's good anywhere in the state of Illinois and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. I appreciate your being here very much. Thank you for inviting me. As specially since you're struggling with a cold life probably about half of the population of the country so I apologize to you here is that the flea on musical phone. At this point now that we have concluded

the IMF agreement with the Soviet Union and hope that that will be ratified and we have both sides talking about the possibility of a significant limitation in longer range weapons at this point now that we have news that is encouraging on the Arms Limitation front where do you see the the freeze movement going and what sort of role do you think it has to play in continuing to move things along. Well first of all we haven't got those 67000 it is automatically there for ratification. But I hope they will be there and I hope everybody will do everything they can to see the ratification takes place and rejoice in the fact that a right wing president concluded a treaty with the Soviet Union which for the first time in 40 years lowered or retired a class of nuclear weapons. And this right wing president is now looking to the Democratically controlled Congress Senate for ratification. It shows that we might possibly

have a new bipartisan foreign policy which reflects a lot of wisdom. It's a foreign policy fit for children. What the peace movement has to do. Do is to make sure the first step doesn't become a sidestep. And that it leads quickly to the second step which as you just mentioned is far more significant namely a 50 percent reduction in the big strategic nuclear weapons go to show off what President Reagan says he wants to. I don't think he's going to get it without sacrificing SDI because the Soviets see SDI very differently than the average American. But if they had been the first to come up with it we would see it exactly the way they do they say to us you are undermining deterrence by a refusal to be deterred. They say to us Come on you Americans. We know that you're developing first strike capabilities that's the whole point of the nuclear

arms race in the 1980s. And they may be well doing the saying that Glee but we know that your Pentagon estimates that by 1995 between the Trident submarine with this D5 missile and the land based missiles you can eliminate 98 percent of our silos and our bombers on the ground. If that's the case you can't blame us for thinking of your nuclear shield as the means to protect yourselves against the retaliatory strike after you hit us with your first strike. So I don't think you can ask the Soviets to shorten a nuclear sword as you lengthen your nuclear shield as a fundamental incompatibilities between a 50 percent reduction and SDI. What do you think the mood in the Congress is at the moment about SDI and the future of SDI. Well I don't think most congresspeople are all that happy about it. But none of the Democratic I mean none of the Republican candidates are ready to scrap it.

I'm glad to note that all the Democratic candidates say this genie has to be stuffed back into the bottle. The irony is that in the last decade. When the Premier League and the Soviet Union wanted to put up an anti ballistic missile system around Moscow and said this is only defiance. Lyndon Johnson and his administration came down on him hard. So what do you mean this is only defiance you're trying to protect yourselves against any retaliatory strike on our part. It was the same argument only we took the Russian side. And that produced the Anti Ballistic Missile Treaty of 1972 which limited what you could do quote defensively very sharply. Isn't it just a kind of ironic history here. Do you feel that the peace movement in this country was in some part responsible for what making it possible to get the IMF agreement and to go beyond that.

I think first of all let me say that I don't want to take any credit away from President Reagan if you want to claim credit for that's fine you know let's not get into a futile argument as to who deserves the credit and who to blame. I think the fact that he's finally embraced it is a little like Nixon finally going to China. You know Nixon said we were traitors to suggest we ought to recognize China in the 1950s when when he went Reagan said this is an evil empire will not conclude any arms agreement with them and then he did. But I get your point. I think the European peace movements also played a very important role. The British peace movement came up with the IMF proposal basically in 1980 and representatives of the freeze in England in Europe talked to a German general who said this is a splendid idea we'll talk to Schmidt and remember Schmidt was the one who said to Reagan if you bring in these Pershing to us if you bring in these cruise missiles into Western Europe and

specifically into Germany you're also going to have to start talking about seduction in Geneva you've got to have the two track system otherwise politically it's impossible for me. So it was the pressure of the American and the European peace moves together which I think helped the process along considerably. I think I neglected at the beginning of the program to give our telephone numbers let me do that and say once again our guest this morning is the Reverend William Sloane Coffin. He is the newly elected president of St. furries a national group that's opposed to the proliferation of nuclear weapons it's based in Washington D.C. He is currently on a nationwide speaking tour. And if you'd like to be a part of our program maybe you have questions or comments of your own to offer. The telephone number here in Champaign Urbana where we are is 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free Illinois 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. So any point here if you'd like to call in do give us a call. Do you

think that that a world without nuclear weapons is possible. Well you know I think that people are going to recognize more and more that in the nuclear age the more weapons you have the less security they buy. I think people are going to recognize that Einstein was correct in saying the release of the power of the atom has changed everything except our way of thinking. I think our way of thinking is going to push us now it's going to change. We do the right unwise thing but only after exhausting all alternatives even once. I think that there will be a lot of pressure to reduce nuclear weapons and once we begin the superpowers begin to reduce their nuclear arsenals then they will be in a position to insist that other nations Libya Iraq Israel South Africa were now then nuclear weapons or access to nuclear weapons and insist on strict international inspection.

So that will have a stringent international inspection system against nuclear weapons all over the world and if one country doesn't want to sign on that country I think we ought to anticipate strict international sanctions because this is serious business and this is something we have to all do together. So I don't think it's that much of a problem. I think the tougher problem is going to be to reduce significantly conventional weapons which I would like very much to see done on both sides. And if we can get the conventional weapons down then we can spare the world a lot of grief and save the nations of the world. Awful lot of money money which is desperately needed to revitalize the economies of an awful lot of countries and particularly I would say the bottom 30 percent of the economic ladder. Do you think that there is anything to that line of reasoning that says that the reason that we have not had a significant war since World War 2 is the presence of nuclear weapons that says that

the kind of destruction that they would bring about is so terrible that that has prevented people from going to war and that if we remove those weapons that it will seem much the idea of having a war would seem much more acceptable and that would make it much more likely. Well the trouble with that argument there's several difficulties I have with it. First of all if you have a war with conventional weapons and one side begins to lose it is altogether natural to expect them to crank up the nuclear weapons again. I think one of the most frightening characteristics of the world is that the knowledge the know how. How to make nuclear weapons as part of a storehouse of human knowledge for ever and ever and ever and that's why you can't talk glibly about conventional warfare. If people have the capacity to crank up a nuclear weapons the other thing I'd say is I was three years as you mentioned in the CIA I was in the Russian field. And it never occurred to me it was

just circle. Or system. I fished persists a little as I predicted but I thought that it's just a little to be difficult with OK to just begin to bitch about the whole system. But I think. Just if at that point we're going to get it that attitude. What's going to fit with of bits of the plan I think you're pushing the logic it made no sense whatsoever and it was never in their ideological cards that communism would spread through military means that's not the essence of communism at all so I've never been that impressed by that argument.

We do have to well we did have two callers and we have one call here I'm told they're calling long distance will go right to them. Other folks are invited into the program 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free in Illinois 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We have our first caller right here. Hello. Hi Robin Company. I'm studying the mike and I work for. And I know that you figured in those protests you were if you were advising advising. How to avoid the draft. At one time you know I was always indicted and convicted of aiding and abetting draft resistance not how to avoid the draft but how to resist the draft which is quite a difference. OK well I found an old Time magazine about the body of a Yale Protestant chaplain William Sloane Coffin reports that a girl said to me the other day I don't know whether I'll ever believe in God but Jesus is my kind of guy. You were number like yeah. Well I remember the woman is pretty good.

Could you tell me in your own words what the god is dead movement mean to you. What was that all about. Well I never thought it was very good theology see basically what it was saying was how can you possibly talk about an all powerful all loving God when practically every inch of the earth is soaked with the tears and the blood of the innocent. That's a perfectly good position. But on the other hand if it is a loving God. Love is so first directive when it comes to power. Just like a parent will not exert power over a child if that is to destroy the independence the maturing of the child right. And if God has given us freedom then the fact that every inch of the earth is soaked with the tears and blood of the innocents is because of our mis use of the freedom God gave us. If you believe that love is the name of the game. Freedom has to be the presupposition and the fact the 6

million Jews died was not an indictment of God in my mind as it was an indictment of us so that every time people say oh lord how long how long we should say to ourselves look that's exactly the question God is putting the way every one of us. Well how do you think that shift. Would you acknowledge that there was a kind of a shift away from Christian moral values you know. No I thought it was a good deal of ethical unrest and that's quite Christian. I mean there are an awful lot of people might say we were responding to God but I think I mean we don't believe in God but in my book they were responding if you will to God. I see his yeah I think it's a great mistake to keep talking about student unrest in the 60s. That gets everybody else off the hook if we call it a decade of ethical unrest and everybody would have to ask themselves why are we less ethical. What do you think that the 960 on the rest of us influence that the moral shift the value of life there was a shift. Well what we want to inspire.

Yeah I mean the ethics of Thich humanists are not that different from the ethics of Jews and Christians. It's only a question of where they see this world to love coming from. Yeah I have one more question. The values that we have now are probably more humanist inspired than such it seems to me that the current Christian values that we had during the 50s have been softened quite a bit would you say. Well it depends you see when you say Stern Christian values we in the 50s were more concerned with free love than free hate. Yeah. Well one of the things that were rebelling against in the 60s was there. There's a certain moral Make love not war you're right. They're big they're big men I think. Yeah I see would you say. I think I agree with you that there was a great resistance against us against the strict moral conduct in

personal relationships when it came to drinking when it came to sex. And when it came to drugs what I liked about the 60s was that a lot of students said the issues the poverty the issues of war and peace all together as important as interpersonal relationships between middle class parents and children. And that was to the good. And that's quite biblical whether they knew it or not in them go. It's just a little bit of a. Book that's just sort of going to. Stop anything. Well I'll probably give them a lot of good stuff right I'm going to. Warn of the picketing exchanged. I'm going to just talk about the stuff. But it's just a

little I'll probably want a little bit we're going to talk about I think a character. Going about doing the little bit. For bit we're going to. Keep it With what about a little bit immune to it at I'm going to keep it and what it will or going to put it away to when we're it's up will be what we're going to be a little early because.

Of that. Going to the debate for it's little. Or little it's just it's just a little premature. OK. A bit about if I want it I thought it was going to look at it. Not a bit. Of I'm going to prefer going with a little bit in the winter of it all. But I'll take that in the letter. Going to learn them.

Paul I want to bring it up. I don't know the show that I just I don't I just want to. Get it out of the. Hole or wants to get it. To get it. We were told we were going to it was the most. Richard Aedy And you know it was going to abolish poverty and we had all the value that came out of it and we couldn't do it. But we gave up. I agree that I think one of the worst things you can say about President Reagan is that he's made us comfortable in our prejudices. Well so racism is come indifference to the poor is returned hunger which is a problem with virtually licked ten years ago is now new

again a major problem in American society. And we say this about the value of life. No no no no no no no. Think what were those moral values for the sick. Both seem to have worked better than the values we have now. When it gets a little complicated seems to me people who are more repressed to OK and people who are oppressed tend to be repressive. Then they get very concerned about personal things personal piety personal conduct and then they forget about these kind of giant issues of the day. Like the fact that you know almost a third of the world is living in near misery and poverty and we're all about to blow ourselves to kingdom come unless we pay some attention to these major issues so it's

complicated I think you know it. If the Reagan Reagan the pressure that President Reagan put the military military buildup do you get that pressure any credit at all for the advances we've made. I'm going to tell you the final. Well I think was to go to Wichita for his own internal reasons wants to revitalize his own economy. Absolutely horrified by the amount of money that's going down the drain in the arms race and he saw that long before we did. And finally when we begin to see that we have two towering debts and that the arms race is dreadful for our economy too I think there were a lot of reasons that brought the two together to conclude this treaty. I wanted to jump in here just to say to the caller that I have some other people waiting and I want to go on to them. Was there maybe one last. Point you wanted to. I am most I'm most pleased to talk to Robin. I think it's a mixed bag you know we get better in one area more so than the other I wouldn't want to make

comparative judgments between the 50s let's say in the 80s. OK. Well I thank you very much Will. We'll go on to some other callers here our guests by the way this morning is the Reverend William Sloane Coffin. He has just been elected president of seen free use which is a national Arms Limitation group. He was I think was it for 10 years you were at the Riverside to last for the last 10 years he was the senior minister at Riverside Church in New York City he just stepped down at the end of last year to take on the presidency of Saint freeze. Why did you why did you do that. Well I just step down I think is the perfect moment and one of these rare moments in history when because. The show is over in this country I think we've been to the movies. I thought of the last seven or eight years and the show is now over and American people are blinking on the sidewalk wondering what are we going do next I think we're ready to for something better something wiser something more decent in this country and I think we're exceedingly lucky to have somebody like go to put stuff over there to deal with. And this is one of those

moments that we have to capitalize on because it's not going to come around that often to go to each other fails I hate to think who's coming after him after every reformer comes reaction. And so I just felt they full time peace and justice ministry if you will. But the kind of mystery I wanted. Well let's go on talk with some other people let's go to our toll free line here. Hello. Yes reverend. Yes the world is spending one hundred half million dollars. A MINUTE. Right. The United States has been telling our people that the Russians are coming for the last 40 years. The Russians have been telling their people that the Yankees are coming 40 years. Consequently both countries are bankrupt. The world is bankrupt that's why we have all this poverty. And we're going to have to have you know we're just having fun with me with the elites now in

those countries. The day is going to where the have nots are going to have war in the streets all over the world. I'm afraid. I gree with you. Really. Yeah I agree with you I think that. Japan is now beginning to show this country that geopolitics is out and geo economics and economical economics is where it's at their business on Main Street. We beat them in the war but they're now the chief creditor nation. And I you and I are sitting in the chief debtor nation of the world for the very reasons that you just gave. What happens one day with Goddard. Farms that they have invested in bombs over here in Germany also in some of the other foreign countries. We could be in deep economic trouble. Yeah. Unfortunately I think running 9 looks like a Sunday picnic. All right I think you ought to be sitting in my place.

You know I've seen this happen I predicted this 40 years ago with my wife and she says Oh yeah the collapse is coming the collapse is coming the collapse is coming. Well I told you just look around and see how many farmers have been tossed and how many people lost their properties in the last seven years and you know it just hit home to the average person in the street. But don't you happen to know what you feel is beginning to hit home that Reagan is being a bit discredited that the farm foreclosures are really getting to people the number of homeless rising in the cities is beginning to get to people. My feeling is the American people are ready now to do something different. Now what are they going to do. Damage has already been done. Well if we can continue to go on this reduction of the arms for instance and with that money revitalize our economies if we can refuse to intervene militarily in the internal affairs of third world countries as

you were saying that we support the haves against the have nots. If we can stop intervention if we can stop the arms race if we can take the money saved and use it to help the bottom 30 percent of our economic ladder will be doing already something a lot but I dont think you have the people who are not willing to pay their taxes. Anyone run for president want to raise taxes. He gets defeated people dont want to hear the truth. Well good thing there is also good. It's hard to bear right or wrong is good. Well my feeling is that as I said I think early that what Israel nations and people do the right unwise thing but only after exhausting all alternatives. True and I think we've just about exhausted the whole start of this at least that's what I'm banking on. We're forced to negotiate when we want to thank you very much.

Thank you very much. This is focused 580 My name is David Ensor talking with us this morning is Reverend William Sloane Coffin. Recently he became president of a national peace organization saying freeze is the name of the group he was previously for 10 years the senior minister of Riverside Church in New York City. Before that for a number of years he was chaplain of Yale University and they were pleased to have him here we have a couple of callers here on line so we want to go on to them. Something else I just want to ask you about briefly and then we'll go on to callers. Do you really think that it is it is fair to pin. All of the bad things that are going on now on Ronald Reagan. It seems to me for example the beginning of the week we had the observation of Martin Luther King holiday from a king and a lot of people took it as an opportunity to to say that because then America is becoming more racist than it was Ronald Reagan small Is that really fair you know I think that what I often see is when we got started as a nation of 80s we had a population of three million which is less than

Los Angeles County today and yet we turn out a generation of states people name Washington Adams Hamilton Franklin Jefferson you could name a list as long as your arm. Now with a population 70 80 times as great. How many. States people can we name the caliber of our first generation six people. The reason for it is as Plato said what's on it in a country will be cultivated there and we have terrific football players like the Redskins and the Broncos and we deserve them because we are on a football and we cultivate football players and I'm afraid Ronald Reagan doesn't represent us wisely but represents us all too well. I think in a democracy we get what we deserve to a much greater degree than that to which we would gladly admit. So I certainly would not blame Ronald Reagan without taking a lot of the blame upon myself as a citizen of this country because we voted him in. Let's go on to another caller someone here Lie number two. Hello.

Yes good morning David. Good morning mother to governing. God bless you both. Concerns about the recent IMF treaty. But first I do have some disagreements when you said that I made a statement that people back down in the 50s where I'm less concerned about the poor and things like that than they were today. Well not going to you know I think that the 50s in the 80s in that respect pretty much the same 50s was a pretty blamed the time I don't think it's too bland now. But I guess it depends on where you are what your position. Well I don't think it's so bland but I think our indifference to the poor is quite high. I mean we've allowed millions and millions of fellow Americans to fall below the federally established poverty line and the troubles that weighed on the ball you know. Well I am I think there's less concern about the poorer in the sense that we want to say let the government take care. Right and taking care of ourselves right I mean one right time you meet

me when I actually took a homeless person into our own homes. Well you better bet is much more of a stronger statement than saying Ronald Reagan is he will because he's not spending 200 billion dollars on you know whatever program. Well I think I agree with you that charity is very important. Taking a person in the home but I don't think charity is a substitute for justice. Justice is a more equitable distribution of resources. I'm impressed that when I was coming out of college in the 40s Mr. Conservative of those days was Robert Taft son of the Taft and some of the Taft Mr. Conservative said that the one thing the private sector cannot provide is low income housing. And that is a public responsibility. And so he sponsored the Taft housing bill whose goal was a decent home for every American family.

Forty years later what does happen to the vision of Mr. Conservative. Yeah some sort of you know I think yeah I do agree we need something like housing but then again once we start spending more and more money on all these government. Rahm's it seems I think it more and more corrupt. You know we start getting people skimming money off or selling food stamps in the streets for a few extra hours you know and then spending it on. And it seems to me that if a charitable nation you have much more control. And of course the poor dignity there would be you know you'd be able to help them out on an individual basis rather than having a national government just handing out money as if a cold impersonal government can build you a warm and cozy house. That's not a bad thing. And the graft and the corruption that you talk about is in high places and what I've been living on Manhattan and

I can tell you the greed of the rich slow makes the greed of the poor look like nothing. I mean the expenditures of the rich things that a strictly luk jury is when the poorer without things that are strictly necessary is to me a terrible reflection on the nation and that we need to be much more concerned with the bottom 30 percent of the economic ladder. I'm not saying that the government is the only one. The federal government is the only one that can build low income housing I'm saying we've got to have low income housing is a high priority we need fuel homeless and more homes not if we can put together some combination of private money public money state money federal money experts that I amnot know more about this. But you don't have to be a cobbler to know if the shoe fits. And this shoe does not fit and we need to tell a cobbler's we need new shoes. That's all I'm saying. If we can build low income housing one

way or another that's adequate. I'm all for it but I'm absolutely appalled at the indifference of the government. And unfortunately the American people so that now we have a rising number of homeless and an ever diminishing number of homes. Yes but you know yes there are a lot of instruments. Centralized and federal government and I'm sorry I don't. I kind of distrust that much power in the hands of the federal government. Well I do truly think that tell you what I think that now that the right wing has gone national the progress is gone local and you find them in a lot of city councils these days you find them in state legislatures these days and I'm in hopes they will come up with new forms of taking care of human needs that may not centralize all the power in Washington as I was suggesting earlier they can be a

combination of federal and state money state and private money that can do a lot of things. So I'm against too much federalization but I am for keeping an eye compassionate eye on the needs of the American people and not to be put off by saying Well it's difficult or they could be some corruption that does not solve the problem. Well back to the corruption thing no. I'm forcing to our campaign speech by Mr. Roberson nomination and he started an interesting statistic that if you gathered up the welfare of the money needed for the poor programs and you were actually able to distribute it among families poverty already. Something like $50000 per family. And I thought about tennis and my goodness when I money Kono it certainly is not ending up in the pockets of the people who deserve it. Print you know what you have to do what your solution is. Well I'm not sure that I quite follow if she said all the money that was

being used for state and local subsidies food stamp programs on an overstuffed started by Johnson's failed War on Poverty. You add in America and you come up with something like 50000 hours per day per family for a family and that's what he'd like to do. Give everybody enough for $50000 before I was so I did. I don't remember exactly what he didn't get in the Pacific's of what he wanted to get clean. First of all I would doubt his use of statistics if you take something like housing the vast majority of federal money going into housing if you count indirect support which is tax deductions on mortgages. The vast majority of money used in housing goes to support the middle class than the rich not the poor. Because mortgages tax deduction on mortgages is the greatest buying on housing if I mistake not these days. So his use of the money on housing

I think would need to be looked at a little more carefully. I'm have to jump in here. The Caller Well I again will indulge me in my lines are full here and I want to include some other folks and I'm heading into my last 15 minutes I hope you won't mind if I go on and take somebody else just to remind you if you just tuned in our guest this morning on the program is the Reverend William Sloane Coffin his newly become president of Sainsbury's which is a national Arms Limitation group for the last the previous 10 years he was the senior minister of Riverside Church in New York City and just stepped down at the end of last year to take over St. Friess he's on a national speaking tour and if you'd like to speak with him the telephone number here 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free in Illinois it's 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Let me go onto someone our toll free line here and I'll tell is there color there. Yes go ahead. I just. Yeah. It is the fact that I can remember like 15 20 years ago when our

local paper here and live in the city 40 miles southwest of Chicago. This newspaper listed the amounts of money being sent as foreign aid to the various countries around the world. And I talked to different people I knew were fairly well informed and educated and they really weren't aware of all this. Well now we're living in a highly industrialized society here in itself. We you might say yes. Grown to be sort of an egotistical. In the mid about in the number of people who are coming in each year and so I feel that maybe we are giving it too much. Through all the foreign countries. Why why do we have to do that. You know I support not support them but consider them in everything

we do. Why can't they don't they have natural resources we have to be limited resources but they have resource why can't they. They're really supporting you. Well the matter of fact the primary American foreign aid started his military. And we give it to states that we feel are important in our defense in the defense of our interest so Israel receives an enormous amount of aid because we saw that she is really the kind of policeman of the Middle East. Egypt gets an enormous amount of money Turkey gets an enormous amount of money and enormous amounts of money for aid. If you look at American foreign aid what it tends to do this is my criticism of it is it tends to make the rich richer. And the poor poorer and the military more powerful. So what we do with foreign aid troubles me more. But don't think that we're the most generous

nation in the world we're the richest nation in the world but we're about number 13 or 14 when it comes to proportionate amount of foreign aid. Almost every great almost every European nation I think I haven't looked at the statistics recently but almost every industrialized nation of Europe gives proportionately more in foreign aid than we do. Let me go on here to another caller go to line number one. Hello. You know I had the privilege of attending your meeting last night I found it very kerching in a moment. There's one item which I think I know you may not have time to discuss. It would be very interesting to listen as that is the amount of money. Oh what could be done with the money that is spent on one Trident submarine. You said you found in a magazine on the airplane and before I kind of know could you tell us where we can get a copy of that.

I know you can get that at the same Free's office which is in the YMCA. I see. Could you say something about it in the short time that you have. I wish I had a copy of it I could read it but I'm afraid that's true and bad because I could be believably. Yeah I know I left it at the newspaper at the last. But the idea was that for one trillion dollars you could build the 10 million dollar hospitals and you could build ten million dollar libraries in six subtle states of the United the United States you're going to have $25000 for 10000 teachers another 20 25 dollars a ton thousand. Forget all the other folks were and you could have cars in the garage in every single family was just unbelievable the basic point being you have to choose you want Star Wars if you want Star schools and we've been spending so much on the military that we've really been starving our schools no one. Low income housing to speak

of and so forth our priorities have gotten rather badly skewed by our emphasis on national security and military strength which ironically has changed in the nuclear age so that the more weapons you have in fact the less security you have we are more insecure and we have been at any time since the end of World War 2 and we spent trillions of dollars on national security. Well thank you very much. Well thank you. Let us go on here again to another caller we have someone here in our line number three. Hello. Yeah. Yes I'm going to go off. You mentioned earlier this morning you were blocked. About the needs of the poor or the disenfranchised and the need for justice peace without justice is no peace at all. But it seems to me one change I've noted in the last 20 years or more is when we don't value human life being a pastor you know what the Scripture says regarding the sanctity and the value of every human life. And yet

since Roe vs Wade 20 million unborn and sons have been killed. You might say destroyed. I would just hang up I'd like to hear your comments. But it seems to me we've seen this happen in other societies. I'm thinking of Germany before. Second world war. And I'm thinking in the Soviet Union and all over the world we have this which is really a threat to everybody's security when one kind of human life is not valued. It seems to me we will not obtain just the stuff we need until that wrong is righted. Thank you all hang up and listen. I certainly sympathize with what you're saying. I think what we have to bear in mind however is that not every person who believes that human life begins at the moment a sperm and an egg get

together. Jews do not believe that. And to say Jews are unethical for not believing them I think is wrong. And as a matter of fact Catholics have not always believed that in the Middle Ages there was a theory that until the fetus is sold was the expression which took place in the estimate of medieval theologians because there were too many doctors who would be able to talk about that. That took place in about the 12th week. So the first thing we have to say is that everybody is not in agreement that we're talking about full human life at the moment a sperm and an egg get together. And as a matter of fact even those who are very much against abortion as I'm sure you us are need to recognize that if a fetus aborts accidentally let's say the Roman Catholic Church doesn't give it a full Christian burial because there is a sort of common sense recognition that an acorn isn't

quite the same thing as a full grown oak tree although potentially there's no question about it it is that's the first thing I think we have to say. The second thing is that in countries that have the most liberal abortion legislation. And I think the country now is Japan. It would be hard to say that the Japanese value human life less today than let's say Pinochet in Chile who certainly does not believe in abortion he's a very strict orthodox Catholic and so I think it's a little hard to make the argument that people who do not stand against abortion are less sensitive to human life. I would I would question that verse civilly. The last thing I guess I want to say is that while I don't think there's any happy position on abortion. I do think that we have to say that a woman living in the slums of Caracas who could

hardly support the seven children she has already decides on abortion. That woman is not morally culpable as somebody who just doesn't want to take care of children. So I think you can exclude motive from this whole matter. And the last thing I'd say is whereas I think we should be concerned with abortion. We should be primarily concerned with the threat in the Borscht of the entire human race through a nuclear exchange. All right. We have about five minutes left I have one person on hold we'll talk with him. Hello. Yeah they would same question. You mentioned Reverend human mind you know back about starving education for our moment. And I will agree 33 years in military that we squander an awful lot of money. But I would like your opinion on one thing at the present rate of funding

a 12 your education in band and school systems will cost 30 should the average cost will be thirty six thousand dollars. Do you feel much of starvation. The level of education. Well I don't know about urban but I can tell you that half of the high school kids in New York are dropping out. And that's going to cost society far more in the long run because these people who have a high school education are not going to have access to the new jobs. Seven out of eight of which demand high school education. Well I don't I'm not saying that throwing money at it is going to solve the whole thing. But I do think we need to have some money and always we have to recognize that the more educated people are the more money they tend to make and therefore the more taxes they become eligible to pay. So it pays society as a whole to put money into every kid's education

because that kid with more education is going to pay back more in the way of taxes to society. It always saves money to educate society. A lot of appreciate it if you give us some of the alternatives you said a moment ago that you can see the thrown money at the problem is the solution to it. What are some of your alternatives please. There are no hang up thank you very much. Well I think there's a lot to be said for vocational training a lot more to it could be done. I mean the kids really have to see the fight to go into this vocational training there's a job waiting for me at the other end. I think there's a lot of interned ships that could be done private industry could be very very helpful at this point. The main problem with so many kids is the problem of motivation they don't see that they don't seem to be motivated. I'm not an expert on this and I don't think I want to go on much further. But I do think it has to be a concern that all of us who are parents or even taxpayers have to have. And if we

squander our youth we are wasting our most valuable national asset that I feel very very strongly. Something else I'd like to ask about you know you have been speaking out on social issues for some time now and I think mostly mostly with the support of your parishioners but I know there have been some times that some of them have felt that you were you were going too far in that and perhaps I don't know if they felt that it was just inappropriate for a minister you were neglecting your other duties or you know whatever I read that in fact last spring there were some people at Riverside that said that they thought she should resign. How do you how do you. Size up to those those things that is you know the the your desire or perhaps you'd feel duty to be involved socially with a more conventional traditional ideas about what clergy is supposed to be about.

That's a very good question. I'd say to give you some very quick answers. Anybody who is a good pastor can get away with almost anything. That you've got to be a good pastor where there's grief. You've got to be Johnny on the spot where there's sickness you've got to be the first call where there is any kind of trouble people have to know they can turn to you and they will find a sympathetic ear and a helping hand. People who are good pastors tend to be loved. And then what they have to say from the pulpit will probably be shut out of love. I've often said that if you love the good you have to hate evil. But if you hate evil more than you love the good you become a damn good hater. Now whatever he preaches got to learn to do is to say what he has to say out of concern for his congregation or her congregation. Out of out of pastoral love for the folk and not because you want to head him again hard already you know or something like that. So if one is pastoral in one's approach if in the middle of a sermon you say I know what

I want to say now. It's going to be hard to hear because it's hard for me to say. But we know that in church our unity is not based on agreement. It's based on mutual concern. So let me tell you what I think the Bible has to say to us on this point. And then after church we all get together and you can all tell me where you think I went wrong. Now that is being very personal about dealing with controversial issues but not to deal with controversial issues not to deal with war and peace to say that religion has nothing to say beyond the garden gate that un-Biblical. And that too many pastors avoid simply because they're afraid and they're afraid of controversy. I see David. Time is running out. Could I make a slight correction. You're view of saying pretty seriously if I had misread it. Listeners have a slightly clearer pleased idea saying as you probably know as that was 30 years old this year it's the oldest peace organization and we can say the freeze which is very

affective here in Illinois a few years ago the freeze was the sexiest peace movement you might say. Now the two have decided to get together and they have merged feeling that we're modeling the proper behavior in the peace and justice movement started duplicating we should cooperate and we're trying very hard to establish in every congressional district a group of people who are dedicated who have done their homework. Who want to help educate their fellow Americans and keep the fires burning. The best pants you might say. Some of the congressional representatives so that Congress people will feel for the freedoms that we say to vote their better instincts. And that is the hope and we feel that peace is as Martin Luther King said not the absence of conflict but the presence of justice. So in one of the earlier caller said. So it has to be termed a peace and justice movement we want to see the money saved

by arms reduction use for development of our country development of the Third World. And we want to see this intervention policy such as we saw such a Soviet Union as not going to stand we by funding the conses which is a terrible idea. We want to see that stop that very brief is the sort of program of saying freeze and anybody who wants to join it is more than welcome. I wish that we had more time. I just one thing I've been thinking about I was much much struck by a short piece I read that you wrote that appeared in a magazine U.S. Catholic. I just came across it yesterday and you were talking about your feelings about it. Dealing with the death of your son I just have a couple of years back and I was I was much impressed by that final thought and it strikes me it's worth mentioning just because so many of the kind of problems that that we talk about are big ones and it's easy to feel overwhelmed by

them. And how how one. It's a difficult question how one maintains hope in the face of despair. How do you do that. Well for me as a Christian and then if my beloved Lord and Savior didn't allow his soul to get cornered into despair. I think any time we're disillusioned we have to take ourselves to task because nobody gave us the right to have illusions in the first place. And I think ultimately in this world we have to do what's right not what's a fact. Ultimately I mean when they handed Socrates the hemlocks the posies. Well wait a minute folks this is Plato going to write me up. I would have been the end of the game or of Nathan Hale. No wait a minute before you shoot me. Or are we going to win this little war and then is every child in this new nation going to memorize my famous famous last words. The people

who have done great things in this world have done them because they were the right thing to do. And ultimately that's what we all have to do and then they became very effective later on. I think we have to be faithful but we can't be successful. I think we have to be persistent. Well we can't be optimistic. I think we have to keep believing despite the evidence knowing that only in so doing has the evidence any chance of changing. So that being hopeful is being is refusing to give in to despair. But the opposite of hope is not pessimism hope and optimism are not the same the opposite of hope is despair and hope recognizes that the spare is like all the water in the ocean it cannot sink a ship until it gets inside and so our job is to keep that this bare outside and to keep cheerfully plodding on. It's going to be a long stony and often I'm only road to peace and justice but I can't think of anything more fun. Finally and certainly nothing more worthwhile.

Well there we'll leave it. I thank you very much for being here. The preachers have regulated the river and I mean as long as often.