Focus 580; Alive and Kicking: When Soccer Moms Take the Field and Change Their Lives Forever

Good morning and welcome to focus 580 This is our telephone talk program my name is David Inge. Glad to have you with us this morning. In first part of the program today we'll be looking at a trend involving women and sport. We all know that now in very large numbers of young women and girls are participating in sport. But what we're talking about here this morning is a trend that we're starting to see more and more and that involves older women some of them who have children who are involved in sports. Some of these women who when they were girls were not involved in organized sports but coming to sport relatively late in life and the sport here we're talking about in particular is soccer. Our guest is Harvey Erickson he's a sports columnist for The New York Times. He has 20 years experience covering sports and he has authored a book that's titled alive and kicking. The subtitle is when soccer moms take the field and change their lives forever and it is the history or at least a couple of years of history in the life of a woman's soccer league that was organized in Munt Claire New Jersey and his involvement with this

incense game because his wife was one of the players on the team. The book is out now it's published by Simon and Schuster. So if you're interested in. Look at it you can seek it out in the bookstore. Of course this morning as we talk questions and comments are welcome anybody who's like to be a part of the conversation can do that by calling us here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have a toll free line that is good. Anywhere you can hear us that he's eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5 so at any point here if you want to join in you can certainly call 3 3 3 WRAL and toll free 800 to 2 to you while Mr. ARRINGTON Hello how are you David. I'm good thanks thanks for talking with Am I pronouncing your name correctly by the way. If there are contests are in town I'll get you with it early on in the book mention and I'm sure that probably people are familiar with the fact that within the past oh 20 years or or so I guess largely because of federal

legislation there are now many many more girls involved in school sports than there were in the past. Think of the figure that you cite is that in 1970 one in 27 girls were involved in high school sports and today the figure is one in three. So there there has been. Change. Well you certainly and you know I think in and from what I could gather from the research that I've done not only from speaking to the women but also kind of studying this trend of adult women playing sports and particularly soccer around the country. You know it seems that Title 9 which went into effect in in the early 70s for the most part really didn't begin to take root in many many areas of the country probably until the mid to late 80s to get it with any legislation it takes time to really establish itself in the various communities. So a lot of the women.

I would say most of the women I've been dealt with for this book around the country and particularly here in Montclair in the north Jersey area are going anywhere between the ages of their late 20s to into their 50s and for the most part had very little access to team sports or organized sports if not for the fact that. Primarily because they their their community didn't offer it on a youth grassroots level or in the schools but also because their families really wanted to to you know nudging their daughters toward competitive team sports activities. And this was in fact for a goodly number at least of these women those who had children. Was it the experience of watching their kids play that got them thinking about the fact that maybe they would like to do it too.

Well it's interesting most of them that I see most of the women that I've interviewed all in any kind of sheepish way would admit to the feelings at that point in their lives. Usually when they were children and maybe young teenagers to feeling the urge and the desire to want to compete as they watched others whether they were cheerleaders whether they were with their families watching their brothers at games whether they just happened to be in the park they all had fleeting wistful moments where they would say gee that looks like fun. You know I wish I had that opportunity. But of course they didn't. But I think that in terms of getting involved at this point whether they were 35 or 45 or even 55 it seemed like certainly the exposure to soccer because that's the sport that. That children applying an extraordinary number from the very from the age of five to six and seven years old. So for that reason their exposure to it their proximity to being on the sidelines and being involved whether they were team managers or just you know Team parents but I think the other reason is that for the same the same reason that children

will play soccer tend to play soccer in this country now have their first organized team sport. It's a game that doesn't require tremendous you know body development whereas you know kids at five and six are too young to shoot a basketball too young to play you know American football you know baseball is in a just kind of standing around at that age. So they play soccer the very natural thing for a child to just kick a ball forward and run for the same reason. I think women who had no experience playing team sports had no real developed skills to speak of. All they had to do to try was put on a pair of cleats aspera shin guard sit up a few code to kick the ball around for the same reason that the children play soccer first. I think the mothers and the women the adult women gravitated to this game. And of course at the time the women here in northern New Jersey started playing was also the time that the sport was receiving tremendous simplicity with the Women's World Cup. I think it's it's interesting I guess now I maybe I have a little bit more insight than than

just based on what you just said. Interesting though that that soccer while certainly we know that for the rest of the world this is a very important game it's a very big professional sport elsewhere. It's interesting that here though in the United States even though some people have been really trying to organize soccer on a professional level here and there are examples here. Basically what it is it's a youth sport and it's a huge youth sport in this country and tremendously so and the interesting thing is that you don't we haven't yet seen a dramatic effect in terms of the carryover. I know from my own experiences with my I also have two sons playing the sport that I one of them is 12 years old and what we started to see is that as they get into middle school and maybe toward high school to the sport that demand a lot of attention in the media and certainly that that draw a bigger crowd to the game is football and basketball begin to dominate the dialogue a little more in the case a lot of the kids start moving to different sports whether it be basketball hockey football

and away from soccer which explains why you know the trim and if you use movement in the sport doesn't translate into you know a dynamic professional league. By the same token that has opened up the lack of a real dominant men. Mainstream soccer league and we do have the major league soccer which is been marginal for the last several years by the same token that they had that void has allowed women to develop the sport with a professional sport and also create its own set of superstars like Mia Hamm and Brandi chest pain because in some respects they don't have a male model hanging over it comparing all the women they don't play as well as the men oh they don't dunk the ball as they do in basketball. All the others when all the other sports have the male establishment in their weight so to speak or to to to stunt their their growth. But soccer seems like an open book for many for women in this country as a matter of fact. American women's

soccer is far more advanced in the rest of the world including places like England which is a soccer crazed country. I think that's it. That's interesting that some of the women who eventually became involved in that here in this country did come from outside the United States. And ironic it was that they were perhaps coming from places where soccer was very big but that where they as women wouldn't have had the chance to play. Right I know that there will be the people who run the youth soccer programs here in our our community are the the the guy who is soccer guru who I write about in the book a guy named Ashley Hammond is from England and he came here about 10 years ago and he imports youth coaches from England and Scotland. Each year they come out and want to two year visas and they coach the kids and when the mom started playing three years ago he assigned a couple of his trainers to teach him the rudiments of the sport and some of them have been women they coach the girls teams and some of the boys teams and they've all commented they've been marveling at you know a the

level of interest. In the women's national team and the status that someone like Mia Hamm had in our Sports Lead on a sports landscape and B the opportunities for women whether they be you know teenage girls all the way on up to what we're seeing now with the adult women playing the sport on a level that I had no idea existed when I began this project and I since discovered leagues being a far older than the one here in Montclair in Seattle in particular they have roughly 3000 women playing across the Puget Sound area divided into broken down into leagues for open league over 30 over 40 over 50. And within those age structures skill divisions for the different level of people someone who's played 20 years is not necessarily going to compete against someone who's played for two years. So the Bay Area of California Maryland I just did a made a visit down to a group in Rockville Maryland the starting out. They had a couple of hundred virtual beginners running around with name

tags on you know all with the same sheepish look on their faces that I thought here three years ago when the women first started. But it seems to be there's no quantifiable research that's been done maybe anything beyond my book that's been done to talk about how many numbers there are but I found that you know a tremendous number of groups in areas all around the country doing this. Yeah I think it's also the case. That I think you mention in the book that once you started writing about this group of women I think maybe was after the you wrote the first story for the paper that then other people who knew you and knew you when the story came to you and said well they started telling you about other women maybe not necessarily playing soccer but other women grown women who were pursuing sport very very seriously. And maybe you you became aware other people people became aware more than they were in the past that there are significant numbers of women who have real drive and who are very serious about being involved

in sport and sometimes rough boards like hockey for example. Well hockey I've chronicled a league in Fairfax Virginia where they play basketball although they have their own style of doing it they play scoreless basketball where they compete very hard but they just don't keep score and extended a whole chapter in the book on on on that group of women and the mindset of playing the kind of game that they they really love. But in a way that makes them feel Cup more comfortable. There are rowers there I mean I think. The book you know what one wants to it is about women soccer for the most part but I think it tries to be a metaphor for being not being complacent and not settling. You know for certain way of life the ability to make changes when you get past

40. Not only for yourself and for your for your body but for the dynamic in your family. I know in my particular family I mean I was always the sports columnist for The Times and before that The Daily News here in town I've always been with my kids the sports role model and I'm the one out having a catch with them when they were young and very young and and running around and even coached their first couple of U.S. soccer games until they realize they know nothing about the sport. But three years later after my wife's involvement she is now their soccer role model and when they learn something Tommy do move or they want to you know fool around in the backyard. She's the one that they want because she's she's more skilled at sports she have an involvement and I think that's just wonderful I mean the fact they go with her on a weekday night in fact they went last night to the indoor facility here to watch your game in the you know between you know playing with their Game Boys they look up and they cheer for their mothers and they're there with their friends and it's just I think it's been great for our community and in a variety of ways and it's

just been we continue to find new ways to make it work. Our guest Harvey R. Thomas columnist for The New York Times. Bent quite a few years writing about sports. In fact he has twice been named one of the nation's top sports columnist by the Associated Press sports editors. And if you'd like to read the book here we're talking about. It's been out here for a few months. The title is alive and kicking when soccer moms take the field and change their lives forever. It's published by Simon and Schuster and as I mentioned the beginning of the program it is basically about the first couple of years in the life of a women's soccer league in suburban Montclair New Jersey. And one of the players in the league his wife questions are welcome three three three toll free 800 two to two wy a lot. Well maybe we get back talking a little bit more specifically about how this came to be it seemed that that perhaps one person who was more responsible than than anybody else any other individual for getting this going was a woman named Lisa charity whose whose kids played soccer and was spotted

by. Coach at this at the soccer camp where her kids went she was kicking the ball around and he said you know look at her and she said hey you know he said that's that's that's pretty good. Have you ever played and she said no and then what she said was something like Gee it's too bad that there's no opportune there would be no opportunity for her to play and that was how the door opened on all this. And Lisa's a very interesting character in the book obviously is that it goes on to become the lead character of the founder. She hears someone who had raised three children all close in age and had essentially just sent the fifth getting close to the age World point where all three of them were going to be in school full time she was a graduate of New York University and holding a master's degree and she had she had been a physical therapist before she left that profession to raise her children and you know she was coming to the point in her life she was getting to about 37 at the time where

she even mentioned that her mother at that age had gone back to school and and began teaching close to 40 and she had a discussion with her mother about it think you know I feel this urge to do something and and I feel disconnected from the workforce and but I know I can just you know send my kids off to school and sit around and. How often have coffee with my friends and she's there with her with the surge of creativity that was about to burst out of her and she just didn't know how she would you know what mean she would use it to to to achieve. And it came out in a tremendous force with the creation of this group and she put it to an incredible amount of energy into the organization of it I mean she created lists and hung flyers and called women who had signed it and offered to get them babysitters. There was something it was almost like a proprietor in creating her own business. And in a couple years later it would lead to dramatic changes in her own personal life and she would

wind up leaving her marriage because as she explained it the creation of this particular. This particular group and that group grew so into this entire league it created almost a distinct chemical change in her that she felt she had to reveal certain aspects of her life where she was unhappy and and this was the way she wound up basically rerouting the direction of her life so she's a fascinating woman and tremendously strong and she has gone from the creation of the soccer league to now creating a whole new nonprofit group that is raising money through soccer for breast cancer research through a tournament called Goal for life. She this was also sort of made possible because the fact that the the people who ran this sacque. Her camp that her children went to

and you mentioned the the the guy who was I think the head of the Ashley Hammond made it. They said well they agreed that if enough women got together that they would they would coach them. They would start doing that and then it again and also really grew from there. How did the the and these coaches were men how did they feel initially about this idea of coaching this group of adult women some of them who really hadn't hadn't played this board before I think in the beginning. There was there was a certain skepticism on everyone's part including Ashley's because he didn't quite know what he had I mean it was the same for the same reason that I was a little concerned when I finally agreed to boil finally found a publisher to to to do the book. We all wondered whether they would try this kick a ball around for a few weeks maybe suffer a couple of ankle sprains and just say Well that was fine let's go back to our lives of you know and do these most of these women were

fairly active whether it was a jogger's or working out of the lie of my own life and can sail and ski and. Actually does is much better recreational athlete than I am. But there was a certain skepticism since none of them had ever lived there I should say very few of them had ever engage in any kind of mainstream team sport and in the beginning you know sometimes they kind of fit that stereotype where they would you know they would stand around and chat more or drink coffee. You know and and the coaches had to get on them a little bit to concentrate on what they were doing basically because they were concerned that when they did start scrimmaging that one of them would get hurt not being in the kind of shape condition to play a stop and start sport. But as that first few those first few weeks went on what actually and the coaches and I know the players all began to see was that the women loved being out there they

love feeling that they were part of this group and a lot of them would explain it in a very very articulately. Talking about how you know we were let this be you know the median age was about 40 40 years old. You know I work I juggle constantly on the go and when I'm out there I don't worry about you know nobody worries about the you know the where their stock portfolios go and I don't hear my boss you know telling me to make sure this is done I don't think about taking. The kids it's all very very much for me. And and I'm out there with women who are not doing something because it involves our children you know. A lot of the times I think when we raise families you know most of the people we meet are through our kids playdates in school functions. These are all women who kind of came together. Some of them knew each other but they all came together for this specific purpose. And ultimately the thing developed you had women from all of this really did pretty diverse community and it has you know the run of the gamut between you know the very wealthy and very poor

between black and white. There are a lot of internationals living here. My wife who's 40 at the time you know plays on a team that has women of all different backgrounds economic classes. There are there are couple of nannies on the team over 20 years old. There is a woman who is over 50 on the team. It was just a just a tremendous environment for them to feel liberated from. You know the stresses of their daily lives. And I think one of the trainers in and actually was centrally supervising all this once they realized that these women were committed and they were forming teams and then organizing practices on the weekends on Sunday morning. So they'd be in better can you know they'd be working better before playing but together more in preparation for their games on weekday nights. They realized that these women were as committed to this as any other athletes they had particularly in the youth programs.

I think when you talk about juggling here make sure people are listening know that we're speaking in the metaphorical sense that is that they were juggling their all their various family responsibilities and it is really you do have to wonder how it is that some of them manage to do that because they they had things to do. Obviously they had their own children who were going in a thousand different directions as ones like a lot of. Families do these days how it is they actually manage to organize things to the point that they could have the time to practice and there you're talking about many hours a week. Well they won't let you in and let you out of the question because early on after I wrote a story in the after several weeks of their involvement I wrote a story in the Sunday supplement of the New York Times in New Jersey sections and about this group and they immediately began getting more calls and you know more players joining but also several other media outlets suddenly took an interest in them. You know things like sports channel in the local NBC affiliate the ABC affiliate they all sent reporters out to two to our

town to do a little segment on them and although in 90 in 90 in 90 seconds or you know two minutes it's difficult to really explore deep patterns and issues. I was struck at that point by the way the women were portrayed it was sort of like what I what I called it referred to in the book at a few precious Kathie Lee. And for the most part. You know they the women were never asked. Well you know what do you do for a living or what do you know. Tell us about a little about yourself and your involvement in this. It was all they tried to portray and the women weren't media savvy enough to to kind of fight this. In some ways they helped facilitate it but you know they were they were portrayed as you know women who had nothing better to do than to you know if they weren't out on the soccer field they'd be home baking something for the PTA. And the reality was that while there were some women who would essentially raising families and not involved in the workforce there was a tremendous variety of women in this group full time workers who would steal away for a

couple of hours to play soccer on a weekday night or a weekday morning and my wife works. She's a public relations consultant for ESPN and and she was just juggling the time and fitting it in because she found it so stimulating and invigorating and. The real question as you said was How do they find the time. And the answer was they found the time because they really loved to do it just as you know we say. How do you know men find the time to play 18 holes of golf something that they love to do as a hobby away from their jobs or softball team or whatever it is that we do. They found the time simply because they loved it so much from the from the very beginning and it was something that they had been denied their entire lives. I know that I describe the the the moment that my wife was chosen was the one they went from just being a nice little informal group to choosing up a league. And Lisa one of the better players also as well as being the founder called up my wife and

after to be on the team and my wife who had never been asked to be you know. Political on quote shows it in got off the phone and we had tears in her eyes and her face was what was all red and I said. I said to her Beth what it what is what happened she said Lisa asked me to be on her team and I went and I said geez he's acting like a little kid. And then you know the next day I was thinking about it I said you know what she's experiencing those feelings of being a little kid she's being asked to be chosen and chosen for the first time something that I had taken for granted as a team sport athlete or I say you know with quotes around it I mean I played high school sports. But from the time I was seven years old being chosen into games in the schoolyard there's it's pure inclusion and it's a wonderful experience whether you're the first one chosen or the last one chosen or you're the hero one day and the go the next day or you just part of the team. And at 40 she experienced this for the first time and was basically you know living the high I mean she loved it so the long answer to a short question was that they love doing

this so much that they went out of their way not. For some it was uneasy because sometimes in some cases you know on Sunday morning I would call a practice and some of the husbands would roll over and instead of you know them thinking like you know Sunday morning brunch look at the papers maybe go play my golf game. And instead their wives are running off to leave them with the children so they could practice soccer and in some cases I think many cases it created some friction. And you know that all had to be sorted through as these women suddenly you know had to you know make things like demand the time you know with their husband their husband their children many nights. My wife ran out leaving my little one crying saying you want to Mommy to read him to sleep but he had to become conditioned to that to the notion that mom deserves this time as well as well as I had to get out and go do something she loves to pursue. Were little the best the mid-point and for anyone who might have tuned in I think I better introduce Again our guest with us part of focus 580 We're speaking with Harvey he is sports columnist for The New York

Times and if you're interested in reading more on this story and of course here on these programs we can always we can only get kind of on the surface of things there's more there's much more and it's a great story. You might look for his book it's titled alive and kicking and the subtitle is when soccer moms take the field and change their lives forever. It's been out now for a couple of months published by Simon and Schuster and it is the story of the firm. A couple of years in the life of a women's soccer league in suburban Montclair New Jersey and questions also are welcome questions comments 3 3 3 W while toll free 800 to 2 2 w. Iowa. I think one of the things that that's an interesting part of the story is that it seems that from its beginnings when the women went out and they were just part kind of doing it for fun to the point where the league started to get organized and there were teams and people started to get more competitive. There was some tension and perhaps some sorting that went on between those women who really just wanted to do it kind of for fun. And those women who

were really intense and wanted to do it and wanted to win and maybe caused some you know maybe a little bit of bad feelings between these two groups of women the ones that. They're just for a good time and to run and take the ball and those that were really into that and to it to the point where they were. They were pretty fierce competitors. Well just like beyond the learning the sheer skills of playing playing the game almost beeping being part of the team was also like almost like an acquired skill as well. And it's something that if you're ill again if you're trying to learn it at 40 as opposed to learning it from when you're a young child it becomes more difficult like learning to swim it as an adult and then when you talk to the child the women and I had a very difficult time grasping the sort of evolution of learning a sport and the changes that that that occur from you know from month to month literally or season to season.

You know our kids play from the time they're so young and they're so used to you know that that the teen team dynamic changes from fall to spring. One kid gets called up to the higher level team two kids drop out three kids get better you know a couple of kids grow and come back two months later a much better. That's what began to happen in a very small amount of time. And it really created some sense of. In the beginning there was sort of a group hug mentality were all together doing this wonderful empowerment in a sense if we had a sense of empowerment here in the park it's beautiful out. But then when they moved indoors to their league he suddenly had to have women of various skill levels competing. You also had some younger women who who heard about the league and started joining. So you had different levels of of of of a comp comp and

competitive preparedness and women were being sly tackled women who were horrified at the thought of of even bumping into someone. And one of the early problems that they would always apologize you know they bump in you go oh sorry sorry sorry. And the coaches are constantly on them saying No sorry soccer and you know but they couldn't help themselves because of something they'd never done and that the whole physicality of the sport and all. Then you know after the first round of games when they realize that the you know some of the players want to win more. Some of them just you know we're naturally better at this at the game. And the issue of well is it going to be equal playing time or we're going to really try to win this game and we put the four players who are sitting on the bench late in the game we put them in while there goes our chances at scoring the tying goal. So they left him on the bench and you know suddenly feelings are being hurt like I thought I came here to to participate and now I'm sitting on the bench and I feel like a cheerleader again. All these things had to be sorted out and people

had to find their level and that takes time and. And one of the reasons why I included chapters about the Seattle group and the basketball women in Virginia and other some other was for offense. Historical caught not only for historical context but also to show how over the years those women had sorted out these issues by creating different skill levels and divisions just as we do for kids so that women could feel comfortable they could feel like I'm not really good player. But I really love to play and I deserve the place to go play. And not everybody can you know even if you start together with a group doesn't mean necessarily be with the same women you know in the following two years. So here we have three years later in Montclair we have started with 12 women in the park. We now have three different leagues containing about 350 women with all different levels it's a beginner league beginner slack I'd call it to get a splash you know in you know

some skills to get into media and then there's an advanced League and the women for the most part of found their levels in a sort of a lot of those early problems. We have a caller. Other people by the way who are listening in would be welcome if you have questions comments to give us a call first call or here though is in Champaign County. Why number one. You know I I am one of those poor soccer fans that doesn't you know it's not on network TV as much as it even has what it has been and all that you have to have cable to watch and all that and you know there's there's that aspect of soccer being neglected and then there's that aspect of it being a woman sport being neglected. I think there was a regional women's soccer tournament in Champaign or and I think you have a campus over the last four or five days and I don't even know how I heard about it because there wasn't any report of the results. I mean I guess it was obscured by the football and the basketball reporting I don't know if Actually maybe I heard about it on

top below maybe that they have done some reporting on it and they can check their logs. But. The sports nut station in town here just didn't mention it all on their updates and I don't think it was on any of the TV news and the results. Maybe they lost maybe that's what one reported I'm not sure but. So that's just you know a combination of being a woman sport and being soccer I guess. I just it bothers me that people don't understand the physicality of soccer and there is that this is a tangent but there's an old story about when the dancer was a Lamont came to the U of I campus and tried to get the football players to do a workout but the dancers do and they were all totally beat. I mean they were more exhausted by it than a football workout. So there's a

combination of things I guess I'm asking you address but basically I want to vent about. There being no coverage of this sort of tournaments. Well one of the one of the problems with with Again soccer is war by you know the stab the more established team sport. In our in our country and what I know of many people in fact there are several sports officials who live right here in my town. The head of Major League Soccer is a guy named Don Garber who lives here in town and you know it's a question of when do you put when do they put their playoff on if they if they put it on in in in in in the fall you know they run into the baseball playoffs if they hold it back in the summer they have you know they have the U.S. Open in New York and they have you know the start of the football season. It's a very difficult thing for soccer to get established but beyond that one of the problems that soccer has is that I believe which again is going to have been a benefit to the women's game. But

with the growth of soccer has been something of a suburban phenomenon in the United States and it's a kind of sport that suburban parents who leave the cities who have traditionally left the cities you know for the for the safety and security of their children. We kind of feel safe secure with soccer is a nice little game that their kids play and you know it's sort of like you know get out there on the field on a nice brisk fall day get some good exercise you know. You know it's very touchy feely at least in the beginning until some of the kids you know develop serious skills and then they might have a chance for a challah scholarship like in every other sport to get a little more intense. But there's that notion that soccer is safe and I know that the trainers the guy who runs our program here has been fighting that mentality for years you know arguing that no soccer is a very intense physical sport and

that it's not and you know Americans still see it you know sort of like they see the sort of like Team Tennis you know that it's not it's not you know it's not the American way but the reality is all over the world the brutal almost a brutal sport and in many ways you know with you know with no pads you know that the OP the chance for injury is great but. Soccer has a long way to go like I said earlier in the program. You know a lot of kids love it until they get can they go to high school and they notice that you know well you know the soccer team doesn't get much attention. And the football team draws sellout crowds every Friday night. You know which is the best athlete going to gravitate to. So. Soccer has come a long way. But I would think for the specially for the males it's probably going to take some sort of world cup phenomenon. I don't mean just to host the World Cup like we did several years ago but an American team to really make a run of

the whole thing to really kick it into the next level. I wouldn't hold your breath on that. It bothers me that in in the world it is such a hooligan skeins a brutal beating. I wish it wouldn't really become a world game incorporate you know them maybe in the. The difference in the culture is that here it's more of an issue with meet in the middle somehow than sort of this the obvious depreciation of an amateur thing that's going on here in the US. What would meet with some some of the intensity of appreciation that's around the world. Anyway the one thing I want I got to hang up the one thing I would say is to the gentleman the point is that soccer is growing but it's being fueled and I applaud this. You know we're used to the sport being grown in this country and turned into a very profitable and you know business and television extravaganza by man by man. This is a sport that seems to be fueled in this country by women and

we know what's wrong with that if the women's professional league becomes more of a staple than the men's professional league in this country if more women watch soccer on television than men. Well that's fine as far as I'm concerned. Let's grow the sport any which way we can and certainly give women a place to really lay down the serious roots of women's participation in achievement in a in a professional sport all the way down to the grassroots level. I do find myself wondering and we've talked about the fact that. The big rockers a big sport in this country. I find myself wondering when all of these children that are now playing soccer when they grow up and be adults would that in would that mean that we might have some significant number of adults that were interested in. At the very least watching soccer and attending games. Well I think I said earlier I don't think it's you know if we've made that leap yet because I think you know like I know my kids play soccer to boys but

they only know women soccer players they don't know male soccer player that's fine you know that you know it's great that they identify with with the women athletes as being important and and strong and and successful but they don't really follow Major League Soccer the Metro Stars or maybe 8 miles from my house where they play Giant Stadium and they don't really follow it. They follow the Nixon you know the Yankees and the Giants and the Jets more than they follow anything the soccer even though soccer is their primary sport so I don't think that we're close to making that breakthrough. And. But. You know I would I do think that soccer has an excellent chance to become the I want to see the primary but one of the primary adult participation in recreational sports that we do that adults do as they have the edge but they want to stay connected to the team experience I know I've never played soccer. And you know again I've only come to the game through my children and

now my wife. But because of my family's participation in the sport and my connection to it now I've decided to join a men's over 35 team that that begins in December. And the interesting aspect of it I'm terrified of God I have a certain level of as a male grew up with sports. I have a certain level of expectation of being somewhat competent in what I do on the side on the athletic field. And I'm I'm really. Frightened of taking the risk in the end looking foolish. And so it makes me appreciate what these women did three years ago without any experience in team sports or in this particular sport in terms of just going out there and trying it and sticking with it through many many frustrating days and nights of not being able to control the ball of getting tired of losing a to nothing to a bunch of women who are more skilled or younger and continuing to try to find a level and a level of the experience that would be more

comfortable for them and for the most part they all have an A. You know I just took a tremendous amount of perseverance and something I really admire in them. We see well less than 10 minutes left in this part of focus 580. Our guest Javier Aton He's a sports columnist for The New York Times and the book that we've talked about is titled alive and kicking it's published by Simon and Schuster. It is about the first two years of life of a women's soccer league in suburban McClary New Jersey his wife one of the founding members. Questions are certainly welcome 3 3 3 W while all toll free 800 1:58 WLM. I'm really interested. Back to that notion of one of the things that I think the that a lot of women got involved in this were really questioning was what it is they were there for how important winning was. It makes me think about going back to the the thing that you mention about the women's basketball league that you were that you looked at and visited where they don't keep score. How much of that

really was was an issue of wanting to win who was winning and then does that get it this this larger and interesting question about if more and more women in are involved in sports then is that going to change maybe the way that we think about sport particularly this tendency that we seem to have that winning is that. I think I think that might explain it I hate to to to generalize you know. Sometimes it's unavoidable and in in doing in doing a project like this and I think after interviewing several hundred a couple hundred women at least for the project you know I can come to some semi conclusions but from what I gathered women take more out of sports or seek to to to get to a higher place in sports that they're more naturally communicative. I know the women here and all around the country kept telling me the same thing that whenever they would come into contact with men men would constantly say no you're doing it the wrong way you got to do it this way.

In Virginia where the women would play scoreless basketball the men would say you know why don't you just keep score. You know don't you want to be competitive. And the women would look at them and say what makes you think we're not being competitive. And I one of the women would I remember telling me. What I play for is of course you know I keep maybe keep track in my head of the basket that I scored. And I take home the good things that I did. I remember a nice pass or or a quick dribble or you know a blood block shot or something like that that. But she said but if I know if I'm 46 years old and I certainly don't want to get into a cut throat Lee where I might tear ligaments in my knee and hobble around while I'm chasing after my kids. But if I know what I did if I if I get something out of this competitively or or something that you know I feel good about myself why do I need to look up the scoreboard to validate those good feelings. So

while some of the women in that league admitted they would prefer to keep score that they like the the the high of you know of a thirty eight thirty seven you know situation with two minutes to play most of them that you know would respond the same way. What makes you think this is not competitive. Because we're conditioned to compete to compete in a certain way and to get certain embellishments and and and the certain level of gratitude back from it. But the to the point the point is that anyone playing sports can create their own model for what they feel comfortable with. And a lot of these women here in town. You know there was one team that was formed called the Polk a mob and they tried to after that early experience is that they felt was too competitive were too competitive. They tried to have this real touchy feely team where everybody would play the same amount of time regardless of the game situation. And they weren't going to care about winning. But after being together for six months they realized that you know what we don't care

about winning. We would like to go out recruit a better player to help score some goals because we do want to compete. We do want to feel good about ourselves some of the night we don't want to the point of playing not to lose nine to nothing every game and just satisfy ourselves by saying everybody played the same amount of time. They wanted to win they just didn't want to be defined by winning so they all kind of found their they all kind of moved slowly toward their levels and their comfort zones and I guess the point is that you can create it as you go along and when you're 45 years old or 50 years old we're not competing for a college scholarship we're not going to make the World Series and we're looking for some good feeling some good exercise and some you know some good socialization. And to be part of our communities and I think the especially you know in the light of what's going on in the world you know strong strength strong communities where people get together and do the kinds of kinds of activities. You know it's really worthwhile and probably something we're going to be pursuing more as our quote unquote for a one to take culture begins to recede somewhat.

We're going to have to stop and I'm sorry we have a couple people we can't take we're just at the end of the time when I say Mr. Errington thanks very much for being with us we appreciate it. My pleasure David. Our guest every hour Don and again if you want to read his book it's titled alive and kicking. When soccer moms take the field and change their lives forever. It's published by Simon and Schuster.