Focus 580; Flyboys: A True Story of Courage

In this our focus 580 will be talking with James Bradley. You may well know him for his book Flags of Our Fathers which was the story of the raising of the flag on the wood Jima in World War 2. In fact his father was one of those men who raised the flag. The book sold very very well was very popular got a lot of attention. He has a new book out now that is also about World War 2. And it explores a story that is less well-known and in fact until recently wasn't known at all. It has to do with the fate of eight American pilots who were shot down in the Pacific in fact not all that far from where the flag was raised. They were shot down. They were captured by the Japanese. They were tortured and then they were executed. But the circumstances of their death were kept secret. First of all they were listed as missing and then as killed in action but their families were never told how they had died because the military and the government decided that the facts were just too disturbing. Only recently has

this information become declassified and we'll talk about how it is that it came to the attention of the author James Bradley on and about the story and this part of focus 588 of course if you're interested in reading the story it is the subject of James Bradley's second book which is out now fairly recently the title is flyboys a true story of courage. It is published by Little. Brown and he is in bookstores now. Questions are certainly welcome here on the program we just asked people to be brief so that we can keep the program moving but anybody is welcome to call 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 and toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Mr. Bradley Hello. Yes thanks for talking with us. Great intro We appreciate it because this was as I said this is this information this had been kept secret it was classified and you just said you know for a long time and I think that it was in just not in till nine thousand ninety six What was it that it

had became declassified. So how is that how is it that it came to your attention. How did you find out. Well the. People think wow I really searched out quite a story here but actually you know my dad raised the flag I mean it would seem and as you said the first book I wrote was about the six flag raisers. And then one day I would have been in the exciting life of an author I was watching some paper print out of my printer. And I picked up the phone and a guy named Bill about an Iowa said Mr. Bradley I have a startling story. And after just 15 minutes of listening to Bill from Iowa I said Bill stop you just ruined my work week. I've got to fly out and look you in the eye to see if this is true. So the next day I was where everyone wants to be seated in Iowa in a guys kitchen that I did not know. I mean it's formica top kitchen table was a pile of papers two gin and tonics and a bowl of popcorn. And then

Bill began to tell the story and the story was that Bill who was 76 as he was telling me the story back when he was 21 and then nine hundred forty six. He was an observer at a war crimes trial. It was a war crimes trial held inquiry under extreme secrecy to determine the fate of Japanese officers who had beheaded eight American flyboys on the island of Chichi Jima the island right next to Eagle Jima where my dad helped raise a flag. Now this was a maid. Him to me because if you think of the evil Jima flag raising it's probably the most illuminated moment in American military history. But Bill in Iowa was trying to tell me that there was a secret held just one hundred fifty miles away at the very moment my dad was helping to raise a flag American flyboys are being beheaded on the next island. But nobody knew because it was so highly classified. It was very deep in the files. Most of us didn't even know there was a war crimes trial like this. Much less who would involved eight

guys got their heads cut off their mothers and fathers went to their graves never knowing the fate of their flyboy sons. Then Bill explained something almost equally as startling to me. He said there's a ninth guy to the story. There's a ninth flyboy who got away. His name is George Bush 41. Former President of the United States George Herbert Walker Bush got shot down there and he escaped but he never knew the fate of those eight other guys until I told him. Now at the point I'm out there in Iowa hearing the story I didn't know what to believe but it's true. I've contacted all the family members of the flyboys and told them the fate of their flyboy brothers for the first time I looked George Bush in the eye and told him what happened to these eight guys. The former head of the CIA the former president the United States didn't know until I told them and then he asked me to take him back to the island where he was shot down. Yeah that's an amazing angle of the story. Of course people knew

about the fact that he had served in in World War Two and had been of course shot down and fortunately was was rescued. But this. But I don't certainly ever remember any much of any discussion about what it was his mission was or what he was d was doing just the fact that he was a pilot he was in the war he was shut down and its mission like all the flyboys mission against the island of Chichi Jima was to bomb a Rick the radio stations their Marines neutralized the wood Jima because he would team up with fly he would be most strategic because it was flat so it could be used for airfield. And you know 80000 Marines including my father took Ewood Jima Chichi Jima is a. Mountainous it's crazy and hilly like Mali and Marines did not attack it. We used to fly boys to hit the radio stations where the radio stations were beaming messages from Tokyo out to the Pacific and they were crucial to destroy and Bush got shot down trying to bomb it always. Maybe

25 flyboys maybe got shot down and died trying to hit these radio stations. Eight of them survived the crash made it on to land and then were later killed. Now you know at first blush people can say oh yeah you know they made it ashore and then they were killed by the Japanese. But it's it's a it's a there's a lot more gray to the story. For example I called James hollow who lives out Missouri he's 80 years old and I said Mr. HALL. Your brother Floyd was a flyboy who got killed in the pacific right. James Hall 80 years old said yes in 1945 my brother Floyd got killed. And I said How do you die. And he said well he died on impact. That's what the government told you Floyd died on impact. Yes. And so Mr. Hall actually your brother spent two months on the island of Chichi Jima as a p o w. He was not tied up. He was living with a Japanese major. He was going to Japanese parties he was learning Japanese jokes. He was using chopsticks he was teaching the major English. And then one day it was time to

die. James Hall never knew that his brother spent two months on a Japanese island going to parties saké parties until I called him and told him two years ago. Why do you think that it's important for the story to be told now. You know personally I felt as I felt I felt my dad happened to be in and you would see him a photograph by accident so people imputed that he was a hero. Now on the very next island at the same time my dad was raising a flag eight flyboys are kneeling down to for their death sentence. They did not plead for their lives. They did not give up American secrets. They truly gave their life for their countries and I thought it was time to restore honor to these guys. I mean we not only did that I did them as heroes we didn't even know their names. So I felt it was important that that the word get out. And I certainly want to make sure that we talk in some

detail about what happened to these men because it's the because it is the disturbing and the shocking part of the story that is the way that they were treated by the Japanese certainly and in violation of all principles of war and how prisoners of war are supposed to be treated even to the point in it. It's difficult to imagine and not pleasant to talk about but in fact the Japanese actually ate some parts of these men. That's true but that. Amazing statement we have to put in the context the story of Chichi Jima is 25000 Japanese soldiers on the island of Chichi Jima more than were and he would Jima. There were three brutal top Japanese officers. The top guys who controlled these 25000 were drunken. I mean just drunken brutes who beat their own troops were literally drunk. I've documented drunk during the day you know often for just three four five days in a row. These guys

got into their alcohol all folke mind. That would be a lot of fun to abuse their own soldiers by making them chop off flyboys heads. And then you know opening up their guts and yanking the liver out. So you know we really have a it is true what you know that some of these fly boys had their livers eaten. But it's also true that it was work of these three top guys and America would not know the story unless the average Japanese soldier on Chichi Jima diskette. Did with his officers came forward and that and told the Americans a story. We weren't looking for these five boys on this island we didn't know if they crashed in the Pacific somewhere or what happened to him. It was a Japanese soldiers a came forth and told the story that's why we know it and you did it go you did go to Japan and you talked with some of the some of the Japanese men who were soldiers there and so you got from them the stories of what it was they saw and what it was they did. Right. I found Japanese soldiers who you know were bombed by George Bush who George Bush was trying to kill. And when he crashed they were

waiting for him to float ashore so they could kill him. I re-united these former combatants who at the ages of 20 years old hated each other and now they're men 78 79 years old who hug each other with tears in their eyes. That's something. Something that for for me I guess never having had those experiences that's that's kind of hard to imagine how that kind of how those two things can be can both be true. Well the the the part about 78 year old men hugging each other. That's the human condition. If you think about it I mean that that's what we want to be as friends. The part about them hating each other at 20 that musta been preprogramed by both countries because 20 year olds don't really aren't really able to you know do that much research on other cultures. My father hit the sands of the wood Jima on February 19th 1045 his job was to kill Japanese. He had never seen a Japanese.

He did not arrive at his you know Mission thinking it out himself. But the 78 year old the 80 year old he would Jima veterans of go back to he would Jima once a year from Japan and America and embrace each other and the George Bush who went out and the Japanese soldiers who I got together with President Bush. You know they've had some time to think things over and they have and they have tears in their eyes. Our guest in this hour focus 580 James Bradley. He is the author of the bestselling book Flags of Our Fathers which is the story of the raising of the flag on it with jamma and also about the lives of those men after that. And one of them was his father his new book is titled Fly boys a true story of courage it's published by Little Brown and it tells the story that here we have been talking about that is what happened to these men American pilots who were assigned with this mission of taking out this radio transmitting station on the island of Chichi Jima which is

not all that far from here with him. They were shot down a number of them were captured by the Japanese were brutally treated then were executed and the story of what happened to them was classified. It was kept secret that their families weren't told. No one was told that wasn't only until 1996 when it was declassified that as as James Bradley explained a man who had been taken who had been involved in the war crimes trial who had been sworn to secrecy. I said that now that this was declassified it was time for the story to be told. And that's how it came to James Bradley and that's how we have this book and the questions are certainly welcome here in Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. Here's a caller in champagne to talk with. Why number one. Well I yes I read the book and I thought it was wonderful and there were a few points in the book that I want to do to maybe elaborate on. First you talk

to just a few minutes ago about the condition of the Japanese troops and also of the American troops in terms of their willingness to kill in their attitude. And in your book you extend this to also exploring the just the general attitude on each side on the part of each side in terms of others whether it's the Japanese towards the Chinese and the brutality there and also the fact that the kind of militia wasn't unique to the to the Pacific but also it occurred in. If I remember correctly in China and that maybe was exacerbated in the Pacific because of the shortages of the other part of it. Abrasions Siput if you could elaborate a little on that but also I'm much more interested in talking about more than just age but what else made possible reconciliation

even earlier on even when there were prisoners there were some who with whom they were able to have. What shall I say a relationship of of equals even given that they were prisoners and it and the others were their captors. But also what makes possible the reconciliation of such bitter and enmity given what was between the Japanese and the American troops during. The war and how that could be carried over to the world now whether between Let us say some of the combatants in the Middle East or even Iraqis and Americans or whoever. So I'll let you take off on that. Well I took a few notes here let me ping off the simpler ones and focus on the longer one that you're interested in. You mention that the willingness to kill in exploring the

general attitude towards others others with a capital all mean some good. You know we always say the rules of war were they following the rules of war. Would someone please send me the rules of war. I would love to see him. I've been looking for the rules of war the rules of war tend to be what. Once we demonize an enemy and by we I'm not talking about America I'm talking about any country. Once you demonize the other side then the rule is to kill them. And then how we kill them we is a lot of euphemism and a lot of. Talking about rules of war we you you know you we we noticed that when America started a recent war we said this is our rules regarding prisoners that was different than what had traditionally been accepted. So we tend to change the rules not just we Americans but all combatants do. So someone could send me the rules of war that we that that people imagine have been going on for two three hundred years or 20 30 years or whatever

I would love to see and I rather take the words of a true warrior like Curtis LeMay who said this and I quote I'll tell you about war you kill off enough of the other side and they stop fighting. That's war. But somehow in America we have this idea that we're you know that the prime moral more woman to the prime activity in war is not ruthless killing. It is. That's what that that that is what war is all about. I can't. All of them are not being unique. Look at I consulted an expert on cannibalism in the United Kingdom and he said James the difference between you and cannibals two weeks he said the reason you're not a cannibal is because you're near a food supply so no matter how we want to think about cannibalism and perceived cannibalism and emotionalize about it. The difference between us right now while eating the bean sprouts in the refrigerator

or deciding who among us who are dead that we're going to eat the legs of is two weeks according to the experts. And then about the issue of reconciliation and is that something that I can you know draw out of the blood of one of these reconciled up people and then injected into future generations. I don't think so I just I think that personally I have seen and I'm not going to generalize because I don't know a lot about European conflicts and I don't know a lot about the Mideast but I've been interviewing hundreds and hundreds of Pacific veterans in Japan and America and all I can say is that they went out and they both did their duty. The guys that were trying to kill my father and he would Jima the Japanese guys and then my father's buddies who were trying to kill the Japanese they were about the same age. They had about equal amount of knowledge about each other's culture insensitivity to each other's culture and they had about equal amount of programming that the other. It was just you know horrible meant they had to be

eliminated for the good of their mutual countries. And then later when they were when the survivors were able to take a second look at each other's countries I think they just realized that maybe they were just humans who who had some beliefs that didn't come from within. One of the veterans who was on the Bataan Death March I mean oh my god the Bataan Death March had chopped here and just a horrible experience said. And he's in the book he says I have many Japanese friends he said. He said a culture can be programmed at the turn of the century the Japanese military captured Japanese society and like a it was an island culture so like a close to by a sphere they just in Tcl created military values. I mean they took retired military officers made a principals of schools and top the teachers how to beat up the kids and you know they were mini boot camps. So the Japanese were completely militarized and it was an aberration in Japanese culture.

Now this man. The book says you know you can take any culture and form the mind how you want them to go. Japan is after World War 2 righted itself and look back to its traditional cultures culture and they're great friends of America now. I want to maybe get back to the caller to there we're getting at your questions. Thank you. All right. And the others are certainly welcome to 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5 we're about midway through this part of focus 580 again talking with James Bradley author of the new book Flyboys. I think that some people have made the argument and as you say that first of all that we would acknowledge that war is about killing. That's what it is. And that is that both sides in conflicts do engage in demonizing the other. And some people I think would argue that. In fact you have to do that in order to make it possible for your soldiers to kill the soldiers of the

other side. However I think also people argue and this is a somewhat controversial argument and not everyone agrees with it but some people argue though that in the end the Pacific War race was a factor in to the extent that it was not in the European war and that it made the behavior of people on both sides more vicious and then it perhaps would have been otherwise that the degree of demonization of the other was more extreme. Could I come in. Yeah yeah please. I'd like to agree and expand that how I can leave that just all along. Read it. That's an important race isn't a very important factor. Let me go back let's go back to Europe. Another aspect about the OK. This is you know those Nazis when they clink champagne glasses and agreed to some holocaust. They look great you know nice leather boots good uniforms they drove Mercedes we'd like to see him on a movie screen even these villains.

So yeah we even know they were doing terrible things. Champagne glasses you know they were european they were they whatever we could relate to him a little more Japanese generals squatting down at the little tables on the floor clicking hot. OK we have a lot more difficulty feeling any identification with that. Number one. Number two World War 2 in Europe was fought in the old rut. What I mean is is that the practices of war and the surrender conventions the time out to get the to get the wounded holidays stuff like that. They have fought something called World War One in the same area. So it was as if World War 2 in Europe did away with fought over familiar routes. Now you go to is completely strange enemy and I mean the Japanese were strange to us and we were strange to them. We meet in a completely unexplored strange place called the Pacific. I mean we didn't even have maps of Guadalcanal in vogue until what the

war started completely strange not even any big cities out there even ports out there in the middle of nowhere in the Pacific and then. Then the due west in America a brand new country that had hardly known any Asians here confronts an island country Japan that had no army any white people in it. So so yes it was race but it also was the first time it was a cultural collision. It was tectonic plates grinding against each other for the first time in history out there in the Pacific. I think something also has to be acknowledged and you certainly do in your book is that there was on the part of the government of the United States a very deliberate targeting of civilians on the side of Japan and in fact more Japanese civilians died in the war than did the soldiers. Yes the key there that I think some of your world war two listeners would have is targeting civilians.

They know they it's we had our cake and eat it too. We killed a tremendous amount of civilians saying that we were targeting other things and that. Just what military to do. We went in we said to reduce their industrial capability. But that happened to mean having millions of women with children on their back fleeing from napalm flames. We did have this this this very deliberate fire bombing campaign that killed a lot of people and I do recall and I don't recall here that the name of the general but an American general who actually said in reference to that he said you know if we had lost this war I probably would have been tried as a war criminal this is a great General Curtis Lemay who whatever he was in the 1960s as the Air Force chief of staff and as people always say oh he was George Wallace's running mate. But long before that back in 1945 this was America's problem. Germany had surrendered. Japan was beaten but would not

surrender. What do you do with an enemy that would not surrender if you break into my kitchen and you won't surrender even after after I cut an arm off. I gotta keep going on. So I cut your foot off. You're in my kitchen. I can't choose to stop the fight. I have to continue to chop off appendages of yours until you stop. Japan would not stop. They would not surrender even though they had no navy and their air force hardly existed also. 38 year old Curtis Lemay was dispatched to the Pacific. No I was a fly boy while I was an airman Ky. Where is MacArthur Where is Nimitz. Well the most expensive instrument of the war. I think your listeners could agree with the atom bomb the atom bomb cost two billion. But to my surprise that's wrong I always believed that was the most expensive weapon of World War 2. It was actually the B-29 the delivery system costs 3 billion and that 3 billion was was a heavyweight back in Washington. That was a lot of

pennies from Grandma and the B-29 was not ending the war with Japan you had an island nation you had water we couldn't invade it like we could Normandy and run to Berlin. You know what I mean. I mean we could invade or we could do it later but you got an island nation with a lot of water so the B-29 this huge investment. Well the B-29 not working they send Curtis Lemay out there who realizes that if they continue to do high altitude strategic bombing and tell Americans that we're sending bombs down smokestacks this war is going to go on forever and maybe a million people will die. So Curtis Lemay says this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to strip out all the guns of the plane take out all the extra weight stuff the bellies with napalm jellied gasoline developed by Harvard jellied gasoline and run it over the heads of the civilians of of Tokyo and all these other cities and just keep burn. When the country down till they stop. I mean if my neighbors are shooting at me right

here and I have the ability to burn their house down till they stop that's exactly what I'm going to do. And Curtis Lemay looked at war as you kill enough of the other side they stopped fighting. So he went out there. People talk about the battle of the wood Jima was a terrible battle. Twenty two thousand Japanese dead 22000 dead Japanese soldiers we napalmed about 500000 civilians today. Then they scout Americans think the history of the Pacific is pro-Arab or Hiroshima Nagasaki then it's all over. No the atom bombs. They played a part but we killed many many many more Japanese with napalm jellied gasoline than we did with atomic energy. How now do we balance out these two things on the one hand people looking at the either that the dropping of the nuclear weapons or the fire bombing campaigns and saying that on the one hand saying that these were war crimes we balance that with people on the

other hand who would say and I'm sure that you heard the same things from many veterans who would say look it was us or them. This was the evil empire we were fighting for the side of right. We weren't the aggressors. They were and I'm sure you hear from a lot of people who said look I lost a lot of friends in this war. And by adopting this strategy Yeah people were killed but I survived other fair. It's a bind survived and balance. What we did was right because right was on our side. Well that's the traditional argument that any country always in every century and in the future centuries from now will always make. That's what you want the young combatants of any country to come to that conclusion whether you're from India or sail on or mole Asia or America or Peru you want your young combatants to say right was on our side that that gets them going and you know so that's that's that's a common

argument I'm not talking about in American sense. I think what I would do in terms of moral judgments is this I get the mother who was who had her parents napalm to death in a room get in with a B-29 bomber who dropped that napalm and get my dad in the room who without any would Jima and then get Mike strength in the room who raised the flag and he would Jima and then get Mr. Hayashi who cut off Jimmy Di's head on Chichi Jima and then get Jimmy die here. And then I'd say to him Do you all agree that war is a crime. And I think all those people experience that would shake their head yes. In that room. So in terms of of talking about war crimes and trying to point fingers Bill Canelo who was captured on Chichi Jima Bill canel of the flyboys was on Chichi Jima. He was held for seven days tied up in a tree. I took him back to Chichi Jima with President Bush. He said to me now this is not my opinion this is a veterans who was a PUA W said war is a crime that the older

generation perpetuates on the young. Oh oh you know war crime. The point of a war is to kill. So Sir Arthur can members name Sir Arthur Davis I think who ran the Arab air bombing campaign for Churchill over Germany and his this quote is in the book. He said name a part of war that is not a crime he said sticking a bayonet in a man's belly. That's better than an atomic bomb. That's not a crime. War is a crime. Our guest in this part of focus 580 James Bradley and we're talking about his new book Flyboys that does lay out this story that we've been talking about here story of the war in the Pacific and specifically about the experiences of these men who were shot down as they staged bombing raids against this island in the Pacific Chichi Jima. It had an important radio installation there Japanese installation that the Allies wanted to take out. That was very well defended and

so the man who went against it a number of them were shot down. Some of them were captured were tortured and killed by the Japanese one who was shot down and got away was indeed George Bush the elder George Bush the father of the current president. And the stories were kept secret until 1996 it was classified. Even the families of these men were not told because the government decided it was just too disturbing and they would be better that they not know. He's also author by the way of the book Flags of Our Fathers who was a big bestseller about the man who raised the flag and he would Jima one of them was his dad. Little Brown the publisher of the book Flyboys. We have some callers here. Let's go next to Belgium. Over by Danville and line number four. Hello. Good morning. It's very important to notice that. And everybody can find stories young don't want supporters they want young soldiers and it's also very important to notice that

George Jr. wraps his work today in patriotism and patriotism seems to be giving itself a war to anybody no matter what side you're on. Thank you very much Jim. Well you want to comment that almost. You know patriotism is the word that my book tours and the letters that I receive I see the word pager Chism off a lot from people writing and talking now to me. I interviewed hundreds and hundreds of veterans for these two books out of the Pacific. I never had a veteran of the Pacific talked to me about the word patriotism. When the when they were out there. It's just funny it's a total what patriotism is like a euphemism that I hear people describe the past. No but the guy who walked onto the beach and he would Jima and never had a guy say you know my patriotic heart was beating and so I turned left and.

Yeah yeah. Oh and I'm sad just what I was afraid just for the moment that we lost our connection you know. Well OK let's go on to another call here. Chicago Wow. Lie number one. Well good morning. Yes I'm a little late to the show so I know that this happened to George Bush the scroll. I want to question or ask why do they keep the fied and I don't want it in the same vein having a group of Marines when not concentrated invaded to make an item and they accidentally left eight or nine Marines behind when they left and they were taken actually beheaded. There's two questions there. Nothing was kept secret about George Bush's mission and his crew that's been detailed in other books. What isn't detailed is what would have happened to George Bush what was happening to the island on the island to the other George Bush's the the George Bush's that didn't get away.

But I do. What am I an island that would have classified and the reason it was classified is simply this. Now it's it's it's a little strange to understand but there was no government policy. There was no policy we need to classify this for this reason. The reason it was classified is just human nature. Young American males in 1946 saw that these guys had had their heads cut off their bodies desecrated and said I'm not telling mom. Two years ago a Navy SEAL fell out of a helicopter in Afghanistan. We have a we have a drone up above taking beautiful digital imagery of him being castrated. There are any you didn't see that on the news. And the mother never saw that tape. It was just you know deep sixed. Well I think you're right. Another question in there. Yeah I wasn't there the did the same thing have a small submarines all of the make and they make so many oh well so much captured and later beheaded by the Japanese. Right. Well we knew I mean that was just a mystery like exactly what happened to him and where their bodies

and then they found their bodies. But in this in this case we didn't even know where to look we didn't know all of these fly boys had been taken prisoner on Chichi Jima. Well tonight you'll hear later executed. Here's me one of the commander of those forces later executed. Of what he was a commander of a veto of the Japanese Ujiji Yes the CI. We held a war crimes trial in seven officers including the committed to the three nasty commanders were harmed and buried in unmarked graves and you have a couple of heroes too for there's a two front war but in a specific you know what. While racism and or arson are deadly and eventually put together that's a lethal combination. And I would definitely do that. The killing was particularly nasty on the Pacific. I like to go back to the war crimes trial you know discussion just just to be clear what I have signed up for a napalm mission let's goal. You gotta stop this war. I'm not I'm not criticizing

you know the napalm in Japan is a war crime. What I am wondering about though is if you look at Curtis Lamaze biography on the U.S. Air Force website or if you look at the founding of the United States Air Force One of the seminal moments one of the most important moments in the history of the Air Force is the burning down of Japan. You can find much detail about that how come. Well they didn't do much in Germany votive I mean they didn't only check raised and I mean they fired contrast and but it's all detailed in the book 45000 residence or a hundred thousand in Tokyo. You know it's all detail but I'm just saying that that I'm not the one who you know I'm I'm just trying to bring this out and say deez of the facts of war we tend to euphemize and only look at the other side. Tough decisions in war and then are somehow don't make it onto our American websites that show our you know there's a number of things coming out about various wars I think that the American mom and I massacre some Koreans I mean his genuineness of that horse. He's finished and the cops are later.

I mean war is you know it is I don't know if it's a massacre of it's a slaughter or if it's of rules of war with is all these words but Americans have to realize that the rude word W A R when you use the military it is about ending the life of the other side. It's not about a lot of other euphemisms. I mean Musharraf LeMay and this is not me talking Curtis LeMay who killed more Japanese than anybody else said. I'll tell you what war's about you kill enough of the other side they stop fighting. Paul Tibbets who dropped the atomic bomb said there is no morality in warfare. You kill children you kill old men women he said You don't mean to do it. But there's no morality in warfare to me. This is now someone in Kansas City I gave a speech and he said Mr. Bradley I'm troubled that you're saying that you know we lost our morality. I said I didn't say that. I said war is like a typhoon so you could be an orderly person you have an orderly desk. You look orderly in terms of your belt is buckled but you

go into a typhoon. There's only disorder. You cannot maintain your personal order in a typhoon so you can be a moral person but when you go into the typhoon of war the experts in flyboys tell us that in that typhoon there is no morality. A letter has been on any of the wars that we fought the revolution of the time and never has been. I don't know if there's been a moral war I don't think I've ever been and wants people to do things or you know I'm not natural. You look at Quantrell great MRI scans of France but I'm digressing. Well thank you thank you for the call thanks for the call let's let's go to another caller here this would be champagne County and lying to a low. I well I don't buy it at all. I think that you can argue that your can you say what you don't buy certain that it's that way. There's a typhoon what is a project of human beings and they have to be judged on it and we had our war to wark war trials so obviously we didn't let them make the typhoon defense

and you know one at Nuremberg bar and Tokyo at the War Crimes Tribunals So obviously we were holding others to a standard. The thing about it is the fire bombing of Tokyo happened you know after after. There was already a clear assurance that the U.S. was going to let the Emperor stay and was backing off from the unconditional surrender argument that was still extant before the bombing of Hiroshima Nagasaki. And but it was it was clear that as you say there was no army that there the Navy was wiped out and it was. You don't you don't keep on torturing the victim it seems to me at that point obviously I'm not apologizing for the victimization that the Japanese did and anywhere in the Pacific front or in an inch China or Mongolia but the whole

idea that you can. I just I'm aghast at the way you're presenting this and saying I don't care because it we have a fundamental. We're looking at different time zones that's the problem. I think this is this true now. As it was men and strew not as many as I was during you know I just make no pollution wars or go have book could I just make this go ahead. OK you said you know about war crimes trials judge Jean you know what I that's not what a fucking above I'm talking about the beaches of the wood Jima. No you were talking about I was in Iraq bombing of Tokyo. So go ahead. Yeah but I'm talking in the typhoon sir. I'm not talking about in the courtroom thinking about the typhoon. Well you can't make a typhoon defense I mean I'm not but I've never made a typo in defense you win here just say I'm following orders that was because that's the history of Nuremberg and but you're saying no no no sir I never. OK you brought up a number of facts about the X10 thing about the Emperor that I totally disagree with were not agreeing on any

facts. All I'm saying is the thing my dad went into was a typhoon. My dad cried in a sleep for the lot for the first four years he was married. I've interviewed guys who were in their 80s who say to me James I can't talk to you because I'm on Prozac. I'm not talking about the lawyers and the philosophers and the guys like you and me who haven't been in it. I'm talking about my dad's friends who are having difficulty sleeping right now sir that my father was in Okinawa right after then was water so I thought it's fine but I get my There's so many facts and you've said that I've documented in a different way in my book I either have to say my book is wrong or I have to challenge your facts and I don't I don't know if we have time to do it I don't think we do I but one thing one thing I heard you in St. Louis on a taped show so I couldn't interact with you but you said that George Herbert Walker Bush you know checked and I don't you didn't give any documentation I know that there's another.

I later our wing man in Napa sortie that absolutely disagrees with your facts that he thought that Bush bailed out immediately and you said that he checked and and saw that there was no way to save anyone but there are certain that there is definitely. Once again you did say that. You are mixing faction fact and fiction there. And there is a little truth to what you say but there's some there's some fiction I did not say it. I didn't say what you said I said. If you'd like to know the facts about the George Bush situation and the guy in California who has objected to the way George Bush has told the story I'd be happy to document it for you. But you can listen to the tape from St. Louis you said that he checked and there was nothing then and you didn't acknowledge that there was people or people contesting his role even while it's very widely known and I'm sorry we just got a couple minutes left.

Again I hope the caller forgive me because I have one more call I'd like to try to get in this listeners. Paying an online one. Hello. Hello. Yes well I think to you know your your thesis of of trying to morally deal with our past wars particularly ones that were considered necessary to defend freedom. But what's my moral teachable. Because I didn't I don't know I stated one but what let me get it let me finish. I think that you know that's that's virtuous but I think that the conditions have changed because I think the moral consciousness in our country has changed. And so I would point out that the the fact that human rights advocates and the media are now merging their efforts to make our war efforts more just and more justifiable is

a great advancement. And that's really all I would want to say. I couldn't I could hardly even comment because I'm stuck back in 1945 really and we're not. I know that I wasn't trying to talk about today so I was just talking about Curtis Lemay Paul Tibbets. These guys back then in that specific war but I appreciate your bringing it up today. Well that's I guess that is the impulse to to want to say. What this story looking back at that war and those experiences what does that give us any sort of guidance. Does it help us all in how we think about war. Today people are asking me to summarize after two books on the Pacific war with a lot of mayhem. I don't know if I can come up with any neat packages. So what I've done is I've started a Peace Foundation that's on my website James Bradley dot com and it's a Peace Foundation that sends American high school kids to school in Japan. And the

concept is if you take this much head school kid and go bake them in a Japanese mother's living room for one year they'll come back and rise in society and government and the next time that we're confronted with some difficult choices regarding an enemy that doesn't look like us these kids might be there to lend a certain opinion. Oh I know that's naive but I'm giving it a chance we're sending a number of kids every year to schools in Japan. One thing that maybe we can touch on real quick and we hadn't as that I'm interested you had the opportunity to talk with some people not I believe for the parents of all of the guys that you talk about in the in the book are all gone. But there are some people left who who knew them who did have connections. To them what was the reaction of people because you did get a chance to talk with some people and say look this is something you never knew but this is what it is what happened. To this person. What sort of reaction did you get from people. Shock.

You know I wondered what it would be like to call the brothers and sisters and tell them how their brother died and having them know it for the first time they they Some took it quietly in many different ways but after a period of two years now that the word is out and I've intermingled with these family members many times the word coming back is is is healing. There's a sense of healing these family members never really knew what happened to their brothers. They never had a body to grieve over. They never had any facts to really massage in their grief. And as a result of these facts that have come out these family members now can talk about their fallen flyboy brothers and their healing will have to stop there we've used our time Mr. Bradley will say Thanks very much for talking with us today. Well you're welcome and thank you for having me again I'll get back to work and write a third book so I can make another appearance. All right. JAMES BATLEY is our guest the book is that we've been talking about is titled Fly boys a true story of courage and it's published by Little Brown.