Focus 580; Islam: A Thousand Years of Faith and Power

One could approach it as a religious historian one could approach it as a political scientist. So you could talk about it either from the point of the history of religion you could talk about the interaction between this faith and politics and history and the two of you being art historians come at it from yet another perspective and I wonder how it is you think perhaps that your your take on it your way of looking at it answering basic questions might be different from somebody who was from one of these other disciplines a political scientist or a historian of religion. Well I think I think one one way is that political historians religious historians rely on the written record record alone. And Art historians have the advantage of being able to rely on works of art as well. And often the people who made works of art didn't write write down make a written record. But and so it gives us a window interest perhaps

a larger segment of society than just the people who wrote about it. If anything you Professor Blair you'd want to add to it. I think that's very true and I think it's a way that it makes it easier for people who are looking from the outside back toward you and back to appreciate something that's quite remote from myself today. Certainly living in America thousands of miles from where this religion took world. When you look at it Islamic art and of course here we're talking about a very broad range of items and styles because there are many Muslims in many different places and the faith intersected with different cultures. But I suppose one has a sense of what Islamic Decorative Art and Architecture is about. And maybe the main thing that people think of if they know anything is the

idea that there there was a disinclination to picture. Living creatures. Although you do see Islamic art that has people and animals in it. Right but it is. It is highly figurative. A great deal of use of Arabic script as a decorative motif and of course very very sorts of sort of complex and beautiful geometric designs other other design motifs that do come from nature right. But you know having said all of that as as one looks at. The art and architecture decorative arts that came out of that really came out of it. What is what does that tell you about the faith. Does it tell you some things about it. Well I think I think the first thing to realize is that. Muslim Well if it's to compare it let's say with the art of the Christian world that the great deal of

the arts that we think of as art I mean whether paintings or are all inspired by the religion directly and images of Christ or images of the Virgin Mary or something and there's none of that in this long because Muslims felt that and feel that there is absolutely no way that anyone could represent God. God is an representable. But you and the only sort of representation that's possible for God is the written word and that is the Koran. Which was God's word revealed to the Prophet Muhammad. And so this has led to. It led to the preeminence of the written word in both forms of Islamic art and you find not only manuscripts of the Koran but also objects and buildings that are decorated with inscriptions and writing and

the art of writing has played an enormous role for us over the centuries. Well I think one of the things that you point out in the book is that many people believe that there was this proscription and showing showing human beings showing showing living things from the very beginning. And you say that in fact that's not the case. How is it that that came to be institutionalized. Oh I was just going to give you let YOU will it it did because there was no no official ban at the beginning but because you couldn't you couldn't represent God and you certainly didn't want to represent the Prophet Muhammad because he was not a divine figure like Christ. He wasn't the son of God but

just a prophet. People chose to represent chose had to come up with another way of decorating their buildings. And it's first I mean in the areas where Islam developed in the Near East they used the traditions of Christian art but they use they sort of took out the figures and used the backgrounds. And so remember remember many of the people who were doing the decorating were were Christians or Jews or new converts from those religions to Islam and so they brought with them their their traditions. And so what had been the background in earlier art that is the gold in the designs and they believed in the flowers and the trees became the subject matter. And Muslims saw that as representing all sorts of possible things I mean I don't think that everybody would agree but some people saw that perhaps as representing the greenery of Paradise and other people saw it

as representing the you know the unity and diversity of God. And I think it's interesting when you might think from from the point of view of an artist that this would be a limitation that is that there were certain things that you could not show and yet at the same time they they don't seem to have been limited and what this did was by perhaps putting a constraint in one sort of area yet it led to great great creativity. And in another in doing what it is taking to the very sort of the limit what it was that you could do. Right. Well certainly and I think it's I mean we don't have for example all the art that decorated palaces and private homes where with there may have been we know I mean from archaeology that there are some palaces that were decorated with figures and painting and that is so but we don't have many examples of that so we don't

really know what those were like. We do know that in mosques geometry and arabesque kind of vegetal plant ornament was a very popular and inscription. And people took the art of writing to extraordinarily extraordinary great levels. I think that's an interesting summing that that you point out that as you say the the original language of the Sacred Scripture Islam the Koran was Arabic and that people believed that to get to get it in its fullness you needed to read it in the original language. And so that means that people people who were coming to Islam as best they could would have to learn Arabic so that they could read the Koran and so then you had a a common language which could be used. So people from a wide variety of

places and backgrounds could communicate and that then made it possible for great exchange of information and perhaps that was that was a thing that certainly facilitated a a flowering of Islamic art culture science that would perhaps not have been possible if all these people were not able to work in the same language. If you. Want to you. Absolutely and again. Even today Muslims are expected to learn Arabic to read the Koran. What would do you think that that the kinds of developments say science and mathematics and philosophy that we know we owe to. To Islam would have would have happened if this common bond of language hadn't been there. No absolutely not. That in that it provided a kind of

lingua franca. I mean it was they were works from all different languages the knowledge of ancient Greece the knowledge of ancient Central Asia of ancient India. We're we're all translated into Arabic. And scholars from all over the world or all over Eurasia whose native tongues might have been anything from Berber to the end to. Version or whatever all all learn to speak Arabic and we're able to communicate and share in Arabic and indeed in in in Spain in medieval Spain that Christians came to learn Arabic or learned Arabic in order to get access to all this learning that was preserved in that language and translated into Latin.

Perhaps I should introduce again the guess where this part of focus 580 was speaking with Jonathan Bloom and Sheila Blair. They are the Norma Jean Calderwood professors of Islamic and Asian art at Boston College. They are husband and wife team of historians and authorities on Islamic culture and are the co-authors of the book Islam a thousand years of faith and power. TV books is the publisher of this book it accompanied a documentary series empire of faith which ran on many PBS TV stations are you going to run. Part of me has has not has not run well in that case then hopefully people will get the opportunity to see it I apologize it was in a confused about the scheduling of the program so people can look for the PBS stations near them. And of course questions are welcome three three three. W. Weil toll free 800 two to two only one. Well just what how much do we know for sure about Muhammad. Well we. Know how much we need it we know

about him through the reports of his contemporaries. And you know we don't have any letters you know we don't have any pictures of Mohammed but he was such a revered. Figure that his contemporaries preserved virtually every act indeed. And untold the the these events told stories about them to other people. And within about a century of his death people had started collecting these of these and act and sayings of the prophet. And they came to supplement the Koran. As a kind of basis on which a good Muslim should lead his life. And these are known as the tradition. And you know they they cover. Every subject

you know. Washing in personal hygiene to you know how you treat your children or your parents. So the whole business of what it is the basic requirements of Islam are relatively relatively simple and straightforward. There are the things like the requirements to pray at their prescribed times to to make the pilgrimage to Mecca if you can to give alms to the poor to up front to acknowledge that there is no god but God but and Muhammad is His Messenger those sorts of things but then there are there's another sort of a list of things that are their requirements of being a good Muslim and they're It's the life of Muhammad that tends to be the the model he he is the ideal Muslim that people are supposed to try and pattern themselves after. Right. And to emulate. And.

He's relatively relatively a relatively short period of time after his his founding the faith he died was only I think about 10 years. Right. Yeah we're 10 years after he moved he began to receive revelations in the early 70s in the early seven centuries and in 622 he was forced to leave Mecca where he is or had lived and moved with a band of. Believers other believers to the nearby town of Medina. And if that's in 622 in that state and that's the time of the day when Muslims believe that sort of if there's a date for the founding of Islam this is the time when a group of people get together and give away and give up that of the bonds of a community a based on lineage and family and go into one that is based on

faith and all its following the same faith. And and then 10 years after that time in 632 Lama die. And that did create some difficulties and perhaps the echoes are still felt around the issue of succession. Well absolutely that that Muhammad had had many children all of whom died in infancy except for a daughter. And he said that the question was how he should be succeeded. And some people believe that he is that the the most able member of the community should be elected to succeed him. And some people felt that he should be succeeded by members of his family through the dissent from this one daughter. Those who felt that it should be byelection eventually came to be known as the Sunni and those who felt that it should be

a member of the family. Came to be known as the Shiite. She. Was there do you think something about. Islam that made it particularly appealing to people or that aided in its. In its rather rapid expansion. Still I'm sure Islam is is a wonderfully simple religion in which there is no intercession intercessor between the believer and God. There's no church there's no hierarchy and people were immediately attracted to this particular because at that time both the saying that the Byzantine Christians had evolved an extraordinarily complex religion with God was virtually hidden from the common person. Now Islam offered immediate and direct access to God. What what would have been the the

predominant for people who were converting to Islam what would it been likely that they would have been converting from. Bill it depended on where you were in the Mediterranean world all around the shores of the Mediterranean which had been the Roman Empire and then it became the Byzantine Empire for many people if not most people were Christians had adopted Christianity it had become the state religion by the fourth century. But in Arabia there were a large number there were there were Christians there were also large numbers of Jews and there were in that Iran most of the people where there's oral ass trans followers of Zoroaster. Which was the ends are extreme Islam with the state religion in the

in in Iran in Central Asia they were Buddhist and. Islam treated both considered both Christianity and Judaism as earlier revelations that were guided by Scripture and so Jews and Christians were known as the people of the book and were accorded a much higher status in the society than were pagans for example. The There's one to me I think one of the fascinating branches of Islam is its mystical branch of the Sufism the Sufi's who were responsible for I think a major phase of the expansion of Islam where they were really responsible for the spread of the faith to go to India to Central Asia to sub-Saharan Africa and I know that within Islam there may be some

controversy about whether this is. A whether it whether it's truly Islam or whether it's whether it's something well I guess they would say that they weren't Muslims but that that whether or not it's the right path to for people to be following. What what what constitutes the essence of Sufism. Go ahead. Well I think that I think the the. The essential is this notion that one can experience God directly without relying on the sort of the forms and legality prescribed by any religious authority. So that I think the this Soofi you know the person who accepts this mystical view of Islam tries to recreate the

ecstatic experience of Muhammad when he received the Word of God directly. And Soofi over the centuries have come up with different ways of doing this. So a bit of achieving this extatic experience and some believe that you can repeat the Sacred Names of God over and over again and sort of go into a trance and other people believe that you should do it dancing. And whirling and so you and or for music were chanting. There are all different ways. We're just about at the midpoint of this. First our focus 580 preps again I just mentioned that our guests Jonathan Bloom and Sheila Blair are professors of Islamic and Asian art at Boston College. They're the co-authors of Islamic arts and the art and architecture of Islam. 12:52 800 as well as authors of many other books and articles dealing with Islamic art and civilization. They have taught both in the United States and

abroad and are the authors of this book that I mention Islam a thousand years of faith and power published by TV books which is intended as a company meant to a documentary series empire of faith which will be airing next year in May. A good many public television stations around the country so if you're interested certainly you should look for that program. And of course questions are welcome here on the show. We ask callers is it. We just tried to to ask people to be brief just so it's possible for us to come in as many different people as possible to kind of keep things moving along but of course anybody is welcome to call the number here in Champaign-Urbana as 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800. 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. Let's talk first with two someone here locally on our line number one. Hello hello. Yes. I'm wondering if the guests know anything about current

trends in contemporary Islam. They could talk about something there because I have a question if they can if they can. I don't know the book is kind of restricted to the first thousand years but I won't speak for the guest. They can they can decide whether they would like to try to respond or not. Why don't you go ahead and ask your question then there Wolf. We'll have them take their best shot. Well I was you know visiting a cronic school in Lisbon Portugal a couple of years ago. And. Afterwards we were visiting with a number of the Hodge's that were in this particular school and there were a number of people in one room that were watching a videotape. The four year old child expounding on the Qur'an and apparently this is considered a miracle by the people who are watching this video which was very popular he was in fact the son of I think Christian parents had no formal religious training and yet one day began to spout according to the story literally the Koran just from scratch. And then at the end after a certain point began to expound on the sort of legal niceties

and so forth in this video he was still the stadium he's a little kid dressed very formally just doing his thing and I was wondering if they knew anything about this child. I'm very curious about this particular phenomenon or if this is something that is perhaps common in the history of Islam these sorts of these sorts of people who rise up if they could just answer to that and I'll just hang up and listen. All right. Thank you. I don't know is that something that you're familiar with or could say something about. Jealousy. Well there's been a long tradition the prophet himself is said by many to have been illiterate and suddenly have received this revelation that there is this great tradition of instant knowledge and becoming an infant. They are indeed speaker. I can't speak to this particular example. Like all cultures and religions have their Americal. And of course the great miracle in the in Islam is the revelation of the Koran

to the prophet. Which is entirely unlikely. The miracle of Christianity which is it's gone to his son. Well it's prayer perhaps the best answer in this format on this show that we can get to the caller. Let's go to we have somebody on the cell phone here calling from our local area Lie number two. Hello good morning. Yes Matt I have three questions I am on them but I have three questions. So I have you tell them and I've been hung up on you and because I'm you think I'm in my car OK. Yes. Number one why should you be 51 God why should people have to learn Arabic in order to come in a cage. We got just one question. Number two what do you have to say about it is a life of Muhammad as a prophet who married at age 25 to one of them more of a fool

to get into this food area at that time Heidi do when she was 45 when he was 20. And I have to headbutt he marry a shit who was the daughter of this second with all the men in that area. I have each at age 6 and then the marriage consummated. Apparently as age not nine months after they managed to hit the ask why revelation by bringing it from God to pass keys I dumped it down to divorce he lives so he can marry as they nappies go I find that he's by David only the only wife. Oh how much. Whose name has come and been you know we have an idea of why. So what is the good of all of that so I just want to know all about you know what is the logic to reason about a large number three number three.

We all know that all of these things that he's practiced by mob them from. Moshi being five times a day of what to eat what not to eat to circumcision bunch of other things have been taken from Judy them so there wasn't much that Mohammad offered mug him. OK and the auditing They've been beating up it why be cheesing thinness divisions of Nyssa that if you have life doesn't listen to you that tells them they deprived him of you a bit and then beat them. So why do you need different buddies I don't need to be friends what he's been like you called reasoning that one can access to all the things that you are portraying is of such a wonderful religion and all that I am in come on girl. OK thank you and I hung up and listened to you. Thank you for the call well we'll do that we'll have the guests do their best at. I think i should we should say that you know

I know that through your book and your association with this documentary you're not being apologists for Islam nor necessarily saying that everyone should be Muslim. Neither of your parents are you know we can't convert them. So well maybe let's try and make some response to what the caller had to say starting with the first question Why should people have to learn Arabic really to come to God or or in fact I don't I'm not sure that's what really. Well for Muslims God spoke in Arabic the Koran was revealed in Arabic. So if you are a Muslim and you believe you must believe in it you need in Arabic you can't read it in any other language. And it has been translated that went to paraphrase before a Muslim. Those are God's words. God and God spoke to Mohammad in Arabic before them and that's part of the sacredness of the language in my writing embellish is everything. So you can carry on your day to day conversations in any language you care to but if you want to have a

religious discussion about God and you want to. Read or speak the Koran you must do it in our back. Any sort of comment that you would want to make on. Mohamed's life a marriage and he has I think it's I think it's unfair to judge the side effect of fourteen hundred years ago by our modern rules and regulations. In his time Mohammad was actually quite something of a free thinker in the sense that he was willing to marry widows and traditionally widows were cast off as used goods and so by marrying them he actually gave them accorded them a better position than they had had before. Now our views have changed and we don't necessarily think that you should have this many wives. That is perhaps less possible or accepted. Fourteen hundred years ago. Or were these least the first two marriages were they

political marriages. Where he had worked for his worst first wife he was her employee and she was a very successful and very rich widow and he managed took care of them. And he did such a good job of it that she eventually married him as well. Is that a political arrangement if they get to know each other better because they work together. He clearly earned her respect and trust because he's done such a good job. What what about the notion that that Mohammed might have taken some of the elements of Islam from existing faiths. Are there some things that they mean he grew up in the land where the face had grown up. For instance the original direction of prayer with torture gruesome and it seems as though Mohamed had hoped for it through Mohammed. It had been seen that that truth might convert to the new faith when it's with clear that not all Jews were going to do so. There was another revelation from God

the direction of prayer with trying to now Muslims pray toward Mecca. But that's not to say that that all things are the same as Judaism clearly some things were taken over but something like that Kepler direction of prayer were changed. When the caller is calling back I think she's somewhat unsatisfied with the with our discussion here so maybe we'll give her the opportunity to do a follow up here on line number one. I don't yes I I'm sorry my my and can I watch Frozen I will be quick yes but I could not shut puting kid that he married mostly DeVito. He's unbelievable. Yeah I had to sing first by his second wife was not if you don't kiss me I said his first wife was and we had my father did not want to get well off he's adopted son. He brought investors from God back because he felt he had naked you know by whom. And in fact it was told he had a husband that I think my mother saw me and

he goes to Congo tomorrow might say do you want me to have a she said What are you talking about. No but he could not satisfy you. Iraq beware says that oh yeah and God said What good do you do not yet he asked. This tiny this adds up to the front. What are you talking about do re do. I mean this is the acid that we have to face and you see between that be have to be intimate. Thankfully we cannot just close our eyes and brain. To what is being said and Saudi as a woman I have a lot of problems with these kind of behavior and conduct about someone who comes. And. You know claims to be sent by God and then practiced it then you are saying that every mob name should go ahead and leave his life or her life as a lot Mohammadi

already prescribing so I think that I think it's quite clear that Mohammad didn't say that everybody should listen or this these are people after him who said that everybody should live. Is life following Mahomet's model. But how can you justify his conduct nagging. I've aged twenty two more promise to reach a woman E-field UAB off who had so much when I'm dead I'm not I'm not trying to justify that I would just we're just telling the story. Well I hope so I hope. I mean we're trying to explain. I mean that a part of history and I don't think that this is the I mean this is clearly this is not the focus of our book and our interest I mean we're trying to talk about fourteen hundred years or a thousand years of civilization that came that was inspired by the prophet. And there is there is good and there's bad in it. We just have about 10 minutes left I do have another caller help the previous caller before you me for wanting to move on

and maybe I'll just again introduce our guests. We're speaking with Jonathan Blum and Sheila Blair. They're professors of Islamic and Asian art at Boston College and are the co-authors of the book Islam a thousand years of faith and power which is a concise history of roughly the first thousand years. Islam some basic descriptions of practice and belief but also history and. Looking at the impact of Islam on the development of the culture and the art of the Middle East and also further of course the book is published by TV books and as I mentioned it's intended to be a complement to a documentary series Empire faith which will be seen on many PBS stations next year. We have another caller here. I'm here. OK. And we have some other folks here we've got somebody Our toll free line will go here to line number four. Hello.

Hi. I'd like to ask you about a bit of Muslim history that Yasser Arafat refers to when he talks about his relationship with the Jews. He says that his his his agreements with the Jews are like Mohamed's agreements a treaty with the I believe it's the correct tribe. It was a tribe of people with whom Mohammad made a treaty. Have a peace and as soon as. He became because he was not he was not strong enough at the time to conquer the commish tribe and so he made a treaty that with them until he became strong enough then he broke the treaty and conquered them militarily slaughtered a lot of them and Yasser Arafat uses that precedent that Mohammad precedent for the way that he is going to I'm not very much not the way he is not respecting the agreements that he makes with the Israelis I think. Could you. Could you describe what that

actual history was. And then if I have time I'd like to have some more questions. Well let's can you can you make some response to the question of the quote. Well Mohammed with the list was of the corporation but that was his tribe so he couldn't have made a treaty with it made a treaty with them. I don't think that this is and I'm not sure I don't know the incident you just think he did make treaties with several Jewish tribes. The treaty eventually. Were not honored on either side on both sides and he eventually went to war it is true against the Jewish tribes. We have wonderful if we want to talk about culture depictions from the 14th century of Muhammad battles our fourteenth century the Muslim eighth century wonderful miniatures showing Mohammad taking on the Jewish tribes. You also refer you you refer to the fact that Mohammad revoked the idea of praying toward Jerusalem when they knew that if

that is correct is it not. When the when he found that the Jews were not going to convert. But even if it's difficult to say. I mean we have to talk about this very carefully that. If we think Mohamed revoked then we. This offends Muslims who believe that their that the Koran is the Word of God. And so we say that you know that there was a revelation that and it which said in the in the year or two after the headdress. So six twenty three that most of them should no longer face Jerusalem in their prayers. But instead turned towards Mecca and the cob of the black this structure in Mecca to pray it raises a problem because contemporary Muslim theology or at least what they're saying in their revised history is that Mohammad ascended to heaven from Jerusalem. And it doesn't

follow that he would have descended ascended from Jerusalem if he had denounced Jerusalem. But it is also true that if you look at history he was supposed to have ascended from Jerusalem from a mosque in Jerusalem. But history tells us there wasn't a mosque there until about 80 years after Mohammad had known and I think you will hear I think I think you're trying to make a political statement about the private primacy of. Jerusalem for different religions and it is clear from the beginning of Islam that from the very beginnings of Islam that Jerusalem was an important city for Muslims and that if for your argument about a mosque there's a famous saying of the Prophet Muhammad. So the world is a mosque. One can pray anywhere. So I don't think you should worry about the question of of a particular mosque and the the the verse or you're referring to a cronic verse

I think it's Chapter 17 where it very briefly says the prophet went from the nearest mosque to the furthest mosque. And that's where this mosque is what we today know is and for centuries people have understood as a message of the locks of the ox of mosque in Jerusalem. We just have about five minutes left I have a couple of other people I hope that all will forgive me because I want to try to get some more folks in will go to Terre Haute next. Number one. Hello. Yes I have a question for anybody. Many years ago I heard of prophet Ali who I believe in about seven twenties organized a group of religious people of different face you know in an effort to find some kind of brotherly love between religions and he believed that men of all place should be able to live together peacefully. I had forgotten the story until just recently I

was talking to a young man from India who happens to be Hindi and he was telling me that as a child in the school he had learned the same story in India they call him prophet Ali. Can any of you shed life on this on this individual. Thank you. Just now. Can you tell us. In the not I mean obviously is the son in law of the Prophet Muhammad and but there are many people whose name and that is the most famous Ali. I bet I can't. I don't know the story to which the caller refers to. There's no way of knowing if that's the if this is the Ali in question right. I mean I think it's many times and in many places people have attempted to encompass other faiths. And in a message of brotherly love and

indeed I think a great deal of Islam is is was intended for that. Well it's probably about the best we can do. Let's go to Savoy for someone else here this line number two. Oh yes hello. Yes I'd like to respond to your two last callers if I could quickly especially to this one just immediately before that to our two callers ago a very terrible slander against the Prophet Muhammad. He made some mention about Yasser Arafat and his treaties with the Israelis I'm not calling to defend or or say anything about Yasser Arafat. But this is a slander that's been repeated in a couple of different major media in the last couple of years and in both cases. One case in particular I can recall is world U.S. News and World Report. They then had to retract and publish a very fulsome apology when the facts were brought to their attention and the treaty that he was referring to is a treaty if. This was a treaty between.

Mohamed in Medina after he had been forced to flee from Mecca from the persecution of his own tribe the corporation he fled to Medina the first Muslim community was established there in Medina and he did have a treaty with the court. The fact is that the court ice broke the treaty. And after the crisis broke the treaty then Muhammad declined to renew the treaty and went on to to conquer the city of Mecca. When he came to the city of Mecca. In fact he walked into the city of Mecca his army was so large and powerful that he simply walked in. Everybody lay down their arms and you know basically they were in fear that he was going to slaughter them and in fact he said how can I slaughter you guys you're my family you're free to go as long as you don't oppose me as long as you don't oppose my religion. So as far as claiming that Mohammed broke any treaty that is that is exactly false that is the opposite of what happened. There was a treaty the treaty was broken but it was not broken by Mohammad It was broken by the other

side. The last caller made some mention about something in India. I believe what he's referring to is not ighly I think it was a move also and I believe his name was Akbar. He tried to establish a kind of secular ideology called Deanie which means the faith of God and which in effect was sort of the least common denominator of all the religions under his rule. To make that the kind of official ideology of his and of His Kingdom our empire Sultan of whatever was called write this or did this in and that lasted for his lifetime and writerly that he was the ideology was talking about that this has nothing to do with with Ali who is the fourth Caliph of Islam. But is this somebody who came much much later than what the previous caller was referring to. OK well thanks very much. Thanks for that information let's try real quick here to do our Bana line one.

Hello hello. Yeah. QUESTION Could one of your guests recommend good English translation of the Koran. I suppose by good I mean reasonably complete and readable. It. Would be the best one of the best and most readable one is by Aubrey. A.J. Our brain is called the Koran interpreted Harbury A R B E R R Y. OK. And there's a very new book which is very. Accessible which is called Approaching the Koran the early revelations which is by Michael Sells. And it's it has it's probably the best. Well that's really a great introduction to it with the CD it comes with the CD. His name is S L L S. OK. Thank you. All right well thank you very much well at that we're going to have to stop because we have come to the end of our time obviously a very complicated and rich topic that 50 minutes doesn't quite do justice to so we would suggest people look for the

the documentary series empire of faith will be seen on many public TV stations around the country next year and if you're interested also you can look at the book that we have talked about here. The title of the book is A Thousand Years of faith and power by Jonathan Blum and Sheila Blair to you Professor Bloom. Professor Blair thank you very much for talking with us today. It's been a pleasure.