Focus 580; Abuse and Torture in Iraqi Prisons

Good morning and welcome to focus 580. This is our morning talk program. My name is David Inge. Glad to have you with us. Both the Pentagon and the Congress are now looking into charges that American soldiers abused Iraqis being held at the Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad. General Antonio Taguba who was appointed to investigate the allegations has said that they were the willful actions of a small group of soldiers. He did also say that there was a failure of leadership ultimately responsible. However some of those accused say that they were simply doing what they were told this morning in this part of the show will be trying to talk a little bit about international law and the treatment of prisoners. It is the first of what I expect to be many programs that will touch on this one. One way or another. And this morning as our guest who we have Marjorie Cohen she's professor of law at the Thomas Jefferson School of Law that's in San Diego where she teaches courses in criminal law criminal procedure evidence and international human rights law. She's the co-author of a book titled cameras in the courtroom television in the pursuit of justice. She's written a number of articles about

human rights U.S. foreign policy and criminal justice for both the popular and the Academic Press. She's a news consultant for CBS News A legal analyst for Court TV she's also appeared on the BBC CNN NPR. She is executive vice president of the National Lawyers Guild co-chair of the guild's international committee and was recently elected the U.S. representative to the American Association of jurists. And she's joining us this morning by telephone. I do want to mention that we did have another guest scheduled to join us and we were going to be talking with Wayne Madsen. He is an investigative journalist and columnist former intelligence officer with the National Security Agency and we were not for the program when we were getting things set up we were not able to get in touch with him. We may be. Will to do that and then bring him into the program. If not we can also always think about having him on on another day. I'm sure we'll have good conversation here with Professor Cohen and questions are welcome. The only thing that we ask of callers is that people are brief and we just ask that so that we can keep the program moving along and getting as many different people as

possible. But of course anyone is welcome to call 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have a toll free line and that is good anywhere that you can hear us. It's eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5 for us to go and hello. Hi David how are you. I'm fine thank you and yourself. I'm doing fine. Boy appreciate very much you giving us your time. I thought the way we might begin is to talk about what sort of international agreements there are that specify how prisoners of war are to be treated. There is the third Geneva Convention which is a treaty ratified by the United States and therefore part of the supreme law of the land under the Constitution and that Geneva therefore different Geneva Conventions that particular one prescribes the treatment for prisoners of war and says they must be treated humanely. They cannot be coersion cannot be used to make them

produce information. They can't be held up to public ridicule etc. then there is the fourth Geneva Convention which protects civilians in time of war so that even if prisoners were not considered to be prisoners of war because they didn't fall under the Third Geneva Convention they weren't wearing uniforms or insignias and other other criteria. They would still be protected as civilians in time of war and the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits the use of physical or moral coersion to obtain information or intent or confessions from anyone. So regardless of whether the prisoners at Abu Ghraib or after Afghanistan or Guantanamo are prisoners of war they should still be protected against. Being treated inhumanely and against being coerced into providing information under the Fourth Geneva Convention evidently Donald Rumsfeld has not read that particular Geneva Convention.

Well this seems to be to be an important point and one where there seems to be some confusion that for a first of all Secretary Rumsfeld has said according to what I have read that he feels that as far as those people who are being held in Iraq that he does consider the Geneva Convention applies to them. He said that as far as those people are concerned in Afghanistan and Guantanamo that it doesn't. And there have been some complaints of similar activities going on in going Tommo and in Afghanistan. But as far as your sound what you're saying is it doesn't matter doesn't matter you know doesn't matter with you it doesn't matter how you label these people whether they are were soldiers or not anybody should be covered by the by the chain Geneva Convention. Yes it's clear it's that. Under the Fourth Geneva Convention civilians are covered and if they're not prisoners of war they're civilians. Donald Rumsfeld has taken it upon himself to decide that they're not prisoners of war whereas the Geneva Convention the third Geneva Convention the one on p o w says that a country that in that if there is a doubt whether or not prisoners are prisoners of

war that a competent tribunal should determine that. And Rumsfeld has decided he's a competent tribunal to determine that so he and now now that all of these pictures are coming out and the horrific images are coming out from Iraq that he's waving the Geneva Conventions around yet under his command and ultimately of course you know that well I guess Bush is the commander in chief but Rumsfeld is the next next down the Geneva Conventions were not were not published they were not used to train these the interrogators and the guards at the Abu Ghraib prison. They weren't anywhere in sight. So Donald Rumsfeld can talk about how they apply but they were not being used properly when they should have been used. And I heard this morning that Donald Rumsfeld who is at Abu Ghraib prison as we speak visiting said that he would like the remaining images the remaining. Go to graphs and video to be released to the public. But his lawyers have told him that it would violate the Geneva

Conventions so it Rumsfeld uses the Geneva Conventions when it suits his purpose. There is also apparently another international convention one against torture. That is it is never permitted permitted under any circumstances even in war and that this like the Geneva Convention is a convention that the United States has ratified so we are bound to it to comply with it. Absolutely you're speaking about the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. And that is that has been ratified by the United States. And again it is part of our domestic law it's not some abstract law out in the stratosphere it does apply to us and it says torture is never permitted even in times of war or national emergency. And the definition of torture under that convention is when a public official or one acting in an official capacity intentionally inflicts instigate. Or consents to the infliction of severe pain or

suffering on a person for the purpose of obtaining information or a confession. And many of the abuses that we have seen in the two global report chronicled and Major General Antonio Taguba his report on the Abu Ghraib Prison qualify as torture. So that again an important point there because when you read some of the stories about the activities that were undertaken and about what the military thought that it could or could not do you get this impression that there that it's a fine line between what's permitted and what's not at least as far as you're concerned what you have seen what you have seen described in the media about what went on and perhaps also in the Guantanamo and in Afghanistan as far as you're concerned in your mind there would be no question that that qualifies the secretary said the other day when he was testifying I believe in the Senate that he thought perhaps some some of this that could did qualify as abuse but wasn't sure whether he thought it would qualify as torture as far as you're concerned

it is torture. Well. Some of it is a some of it's inhuman treatment. Rumsfeld told reporters last week when he was trying to to put a lid on this growing scandal. He said My impression is that what has been charged thus far is abuse which I believe technically is different from torture. So you know he evidently at that point had not heard of the side amaizing of one of the detainees with a chemical light and perhaps a broomstick. This is chronicled in the tuber report or putting the naked detainee on a box with a sandbag on his head and attaching wires to his fingers toes and penis and threatening him with electric torture. I'm reading right out of the Goober report and using military dogs without muzzles who then biting and severely injuring a detainee. Those in my opinion would qualify as torture under the definition from the torture convention. But even if you want to say they're not torture and Rumsfeld did admit when he was testifying before the Senate Armed

Services Committee on Friday that some of the photographs that he saw that hadn't been made public depicted sadistic cruel and inhuman behavior under the Geneva Convention. Torture and inhuman treatment are considered grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions are considered war crimes. So we're taught whether you want to call it torture or whether you want to call it inhuman treatment. We're talking about war crimes and the there are federal laws that provide for life imprisonment or the death penalty if the victim dies for the commission of war crimes. We have a couple of callers here and we'll get to them and bring them into the conversation but also I want to introduce again the guest for this hour focus 580 was speaking with Marjorie Cohen. She's a professor at the Thomas Jefferson School of Law that's in San Diego where among other things she teaches international human rights law. And we're talking here about the current scandal about the abuse of Iraqis in Abu Ghraib and perhaps

elsewhere. Questions or comments certainly are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5 and we do have two callers here ready to go the first is in file 0 and start their line number 1. Hello. Yes go ahead. Yes. Words fail me I think that this whole scandal has brought shame on us as Americans in this country for what they are for what Rumsfeld and I think you have to start at the top. Bush has done with this policy. And I think it was a policy and I'd like you to comment on the picture. And the reason I say that is because he looked at those pictures of the people smiling in them and everything. They didn't believe they were doing anything wrong. They say they were ordered to do it. And you know how far up does it go. And I decide to hear your comments.

Thank you very much David for having this program on today. Sure. Well Professor Cohen what do you think. Yes I think the caller raises a very good point. And that is that the the the images depicted in the pictures and the fact that the soldiers seem to be proud of what they're doing and the fact that there are so many pictures means that they were not hiding anything from their superiors. They believed that they were doing the right thing. And Lynndie England who is now mounting a defense to criminal charges that have been filed against her is saying that she was told to pose and smile for those pictures. I don't know if that's true or not. And presumably that will come out in court. But one of the interesting things here is that in addition to the report of General to GUBA the International Committee for the Red Cross also made a report about this prison and others in Iraq. And really

confirmed many of the allegations of the tuber report also found. Systemic abuse of the security detainees detainees at Abu Ghraib and the Red Cross characterized some of the interrogation tactics as tantamount to torture. One of the most shocking things about the Red Cross report is that it says that 70 to 90 percent of the detainees in Iraq were arrested by mistake. And that's that's quite alarming. But another thing the Red Cross said and this goes directly to the question of the caller is that the physical and psychological coersion and that's their words by the interrogators appeared to be part of the standard operating procedures used by the military intelligence personnel. And this could if you look at you know it's on television all the time and the so many people standing around in these pictures. And I don't know if they're all military people or some of them might be the

mercenaries. They're called civilian contractors but they are mercenaries getting souses of dollars for being they're not being subject to any military law because they think the commanders the people in charge of the prison must have known they must have known about this. There's another thing. That connects this to a policy and we're really talking we're talking about holding the commanders liable under the doctrine of command responsibility which is a very well-established doctrine that says that if a commander knew or should have known that illegal activity was taking place and failed to prevent or stop it that he is just as liable. And the this is on the front page of The New York Times and it's also I'm happy to say I'm not happy to say but it came out in my article last night on Truthout dot org and I got it straight out of the tuber report which is that Major General Geoffrey Miller who was the commander of the Guantanamo prison and in charge of the

interrogations there was sent to Iraq late last year to review the end to Google report says the current Iraqi theater ability to rapidly exploit in tourney's for actionable intelligence and the tuber report says that Miller used the Guantanamo interrogation procedures as baseless. And so here is the connection between Guantanamo and Iraq and prisoners released from Guantanamo have reported torture there. One prisoner told Amnesty International that the interrogations quote were like torture unquote. And you know Australian lawyer Richard Burke reported on ABC radio that one of the Guantanamo detainees had described being taken out and tied to a post and having rubber bullets fired at them and they were being made to kneel cruciform in the sun until they collapsed. So there's a connection there and there's also a connection when Donald Rumsfeld made

it very clear that he didn't think that the Geneva. Conventions applied to the prisoners in Guantanamo in Afghanistan but that sent a message to future Iraqi interrogators that that anything goes. There's also been torture used in Afghanistan there was a report in yesterday's New York Times and in addition in December of 2002 there was a German documentary which was aired called massacre in Afghanistan it was broadcast on German television. And in that documentary an Afghan soldier was ordered by an American commander to fire shots into the closed containers that transported the prisoners and some died from suffocation and others he said were dumped in the desert shot and left to be by dogs. As American soldiers looked on. After that documentary aired the Washington Post reported that stress and arrest tactics were being used on prisoners being interrogated at Bob Graham Air Base in

Afghanistan that the U.S. airbase and the US military has admitted that to Britain. Prisoners have been victims of homicide at the Bagram Air Base. So I think it's and the Red Cross report also documents abuse verging on torture really in other prisons in Iraq. So we're not just talking about an isolated thing here where we're seven low ranking soldiers had some fun at the expense of some Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib. There's another thing to that. George Tenet CIA director George Tenent admitted to the 9/11 Commission when he testified and that is that the CIA engages in what is called rendition which is a practice of sending prisoners to other countries where torture is a stated policy to be interrogated and many times the CIA agents go along with them and are present while they are being tortured in places like Jordan and Morocco and Saudi Arabia and back to Stan. And

and rendition is violates international law. It violates the torture convention and under the torture convention even if you don't carry out the torture yourself you can be you can be liable for torture if if the policy is coming from the top. So. Think it. Yes we're talking about policy we're talking about holding the highest officials of our Government liable for this. And just as during after the mainline massacre in Vietnam which was where 3 to 500 unarmed old men women and civilian and children were killed and women and women raped in a little village called me lying that was covered up for a long time by the government including by Colin Powell at the time. But ultimately when Seymour Hersh broke the story and course he's he's revealed a lot of the abuses at Abu Ghraib as well. There was there was there was a prosecution of a Lieutenant William Calley and he was convicted of murder and

sentenced to life imprisonment and released three years later. But there was a lot of criticism at the time that he was the fall guy that he was taking the rap for the higher ups who were not prosecuted and who certainly were party to what happened and where that and very much in charge of it. And that's what we have to to avoid this time. We have to hold our leaders accountable. And the other point the caller makes is a very good one and that is that this has really damaged the reputation of the American people in the eyes of the world. And the overwhelming majority of American people are not like this. Most people are outraged. By this and we have to make sure that we show the world and show ourselves and show those poor Iraqis who have been treated that way nobody should be treated that way. Nobody that that we're we're going to hold them to our leaders accountable. We have some of the callers here next to someone in champagne. This is line number two. Hello. I was hoping maybe you could speak a little bit more about

the problematic issue of releasing more of these pictures. They talked about for example women having to bear their breasts. And it seems to me that even if their faces are blocked out this would dishonor anonymous Iraqi women in a sense this could be seen perhaps in that culture is tantamount to rape in and of itself. And it would be it for the continuation of the inhumane treatment or it could be kind of flipped over and there's a kind of substitution I do some research on this in which it would be seen as the rape of the nation or the rape of the Omagh of the Islamic community and therefore it becomes you know a great propaganda tool which is one of the fears. But aside from the fact of fearing the you know possible consequences of revealing those pictures you know politically or whatever does it really follow Geneva Conventions on the one who. And if one were to do a kind of a Nurenberg

tripe investigation you want to have all the evidence but I don't know whether it has to be released to the whole world public or whether it can be. You know you raise a really good point. And under the Third Geneva Convention it's prohibited to hold up to humiliate or hold up prisoners of war to ridicule. And certainly it is very humiliating in fact. I have read an account of at least one of the Iraqi prisoners whose face was was not shown but his genitals were shown when he was posed not posing but he was in one of the pictures naked. We've seen the pictures with the genitals blocked out but evidently they haven't been in other parts of the world. And and he was he said he couldn't go back to his village because he was so humiliated even though people didn't hadn't seen his face. So that is. It's a real danger because on the one hand it it is very important that the American people

know the extent of what happened so that people can can understand the scope of this torture and this inhuman treatment. And and we have a right to know what our government is doing in our name. But on the other hand releasing some of these images are going to be very humiliating and damaging to the Iraqi people. One way that that this might be dealt with is to have perhaps neutral people such as the Red Cross or Human Rights Watch and human rights organizations themselves view all the pictures and videotapes and write down a very detailed description of what they depict and release that. And then people know exactly what's in the pictures. And the video tapes and they don't have to guess and of course seeing them would be much worse and we know that because when we see even the pictures we've seen were horrified. But that may be I'm a middle ground. I'm I'm kind of of

two minds on this because I think that these things should not be the abuses and the torture should not be hidden and hidden from the American people I mean we already have you know a few of the Republican senators coming out and saying you know this is no big deal it's just like. It's No. I think some journalists actually have said if you want to call Rush Limbaugh a journalist and I think he was the one who said it. I may be wrong about that that this is no worse than than fraternity initiations of course people choose to be in fraternities but we had some senators who said you know they're more outraged at the outrage than they are at the pictures. And and then this horrific horrific unspeakable beheading of Nick Berg which is is just it. It's an outrage but unfortunately what's happening is that a number of the Republicans are using that as a way to deflect the attention away from the torture that happened at Abu Ghraib prison and

so I think it's very important to keep a perspective and to understand what's going on and to be honest about it and and to take it head on and to punish people who are responsible all the way up the chain of command. But I think that the picture that the the issue you raise a concern you raise about releasing the pictures and the videotapes is very well taken. I have a book in front of me called Imperial Leather race gender and sexuality in the colonial context and McLintock. And I'm just wondering if you can talk about how patriarchal sex gender rules could be exploited in humiliation domination or torture whether it's by Nazis or the French in Algeria Saddam Hussein or in the School of the Americas. Why would people engage in this. Why is this just not a fraternity prank. Well you know it's there are many ways to humiliate people. And you know I'm not an expert on torture but there are many ways to humiliate people. But

when you start to humiliate them sexually you really move to to another level. You move to the level described in the fourth Geneva Convention as moral coercion that that is it does. Those words are very clear that moral coersion cannot be used as a way to get information or concessions from people and that's what we're talking about we're talking about moral coersion I mean certainly rape involves physical coercion as well. But making people masturbate and piling people up on top of each other so their their their genitals touch another man's buttocks. This. Is this is moral coersion and it's also humiliation taken to a very very high level. And yes that has been used it was used by the Nazis. It's been used in many instances and certainly in Vietnam it was you know rape was was used and

it's it's it's just an absolutely horrific practice and one that must be denounced roundly denounced and not just denounced but really punished. We have we have war crimes statutes on the books. We don't have to go to the International Criminal Court because Bush has prevented us from doing that and I think for this very reason I think he didn't want to be a defendant in a war crimes prosecution he didn't want Rumsfeld to be a defendant. And that's why he fought the International Criminal Court where you know almost. You know nearly all of the nations in the world have signed on to that court. But there are federal statutes war crimes statutes and statutes against torture which provides for very very stiff penalties in this country and people should be prosecuted and not just you know one of the things that we haven't spoken about is that the well I mentioned it briefly

but these seven soldiers are being being prosecuted criminally under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. They're not being prosecuted under the War Crimes Act or the torture act. But none of the mercenaries many of whom are implicated in this torture and inhuman treatment none of them can be prosecuted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice because they don't come under it. So they have to be prosecuted under these civilian laws. And of course military can be prosecuted under civilian laws as well and they should be and evidently some of these mercenaries are still on the job doing the interrogations and that's very frightening. There are. Uh there's another possible route that victims of this torture abuse sexual humiliation can pursue. And that's as a civil remedy under for damages under the Alien Tort Claims Act in the United States. And that particular actives been used by many people in other countries such as

Ecuador and Nigeria and Burma to hold American corporations liable for torture and abuse and murder and disappearances and destroying the environment through drilling oil drilling. And many of those cases are still pending The problem is that the future of the Alien Tort Claims Act is now. Now rests in the Supreme Court and we don't know what they will do with it and hopefully when they see it what's happening in Iraq in this prison and elsewhere they will not they will not say that that law which dates back to 1789 is no longer good. But it would be great if many of these victims of this torture and inhuman treatment could actually get some monetary relief and of course that would not risk their honor. Money would not do that but it would give them some relief under the Alien Tort Claims Act. We're a little bit past the midpoint here and I have some other callers hope the caller will last go forgive me for want to go on and get. Some other folks a chance at also for anybody who's tuned in lasts a little bit here I should

also introduce Again our guest Marjorie Cohen is professor at the Thomas Jefferson School of Law that's in San Diego. She teaches a number of courses including international human rights law. She is co-author of a book entitled cameras in the courtroom television and the pursuit of justice. She's written a number of articles about human rights U.S. foreign policy and criminal justice both with the popular and the Academic Press. She's a news consultant for CBS News A legal analyst for Court TV and also has appeared on BBC and CNN and NPR and MSNBC where she provides legal and political commentary. We're talking this morning about the growing scandal the prisoner abuse scandal involving American soldiers and. Private contractors in Iraq do also want to mention that we we were not able to make contact with the other guests that we had scheduled for the program Wayne Madsen investigative journalist and columnist will see if we can have him on on another day I'm sure that the story is not going to go away and we will be talking about it again but for the moment

we'll continue talking with our guest Professor murdered on and questions are welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5. Caller on a cell phone. Been very patient. We'll go there. Line 1. Hello. Hi good morning. Yes very cold and clinical discussion of a very distasteful subject and it's sad that we have to be having it but here we are. And I was wondering if your guest could talk about the use of the pictures as a form of humiliation I heard something about it. I didn't know that it was anything she heard about and then my second question was that I had read somewhere and I was wondering if your guest could verify or denounce this I don't know that that Rumsfeld was quite highly involved with the treatment of the Guantanamo prisoners and he was very involved in determining what interrogation methods were going to be used how they were going to be housed. And so his contention that there was just this these things happening out there that he wasn't aware of. And the face of this kind of history doesn't stand up very well. I was just one of your guys. OK. Yes.

First of all yes the pictures is humiliation when the fact that the Ds things it looks like these. It wasn't just some people taking some of the soldiers taking souvenir snapshots but that they were actually told to pose these people in humiliating positions and then photographed them as in the photographing would be further humiliation. So I agree that the pictures the taking of the pictures were was part of the humiliating treatment and then of course the release of the photographs is another issue that we just addressed with the last caller in terms of Rome. Government. Yes that is true. Seen The Washington Post I believe it was documented that Rumsfeld had to sign on to 20 of the most egregious interrogation techniques at Guantanamo. And so there was and you know the that the involvement was all the way all the way to the

top. So yes that's true. There is involvement hands on involvement there in terms of approving interrogation policies not an end. And then Rumsfeld can say well I had no idea what was going on and I'm just appalled and I just thought that they were you know following the Geneva Conventions. So you know Rumsfeld is very very heavily involved. And another thing. That that's important to keep in mind is that there's a very influential newspaper called The Army Times. This is not some left wing publication and the Army Times implicates both General Richard Myers who's the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and Rumsfeld in the Iraqi prison scandal and it states that the responsibility quote extends all the way up the chain of command to the highest reaches of the military hierarchy and its civilian leadership unquote. And then the Army Times and this is this is very very serious. The Army Times says

quote This was not just a failure of leadership at the local command level. This was a failure that ran straight to the top. Accountability here is essential even if it means relieving top leaders from duty in a time of war. And so this is really tantamount to calling for for Rumsfeld's resignation. And I think you know of course it's going to be totally political about whether or not Rumsfeld is is step down or Bush lets him go and in some ways it might be a test of who's really running the White House and which I think is Dick Cheney. And I think that Rumsfeld is key to the neo conservative agenda. He is the linchpin of their Iraq policy. And I don't think they can afford to lose him. On the other hand if Bush is listening to a higher power which he claims helps him make most of his decisions. He

may decide and Karl Rove is also someone that he listens to Karl Rove is running his campaign election campaign he may decide that it's too much of a political liability to keep Rumsfeld and it will be very interesting to see whether Rumsfeld survives. He could he Bush came out not the last time he spoke at the time before and said that Rumsfeld will stay in my cabinet. That means that he maybe he could resign him to another position. Cabinet and Senator Ted Kennedy made a very interesting suggestion that Colin Powell take over as secretary of defense he says Colin Powell and Colin Powell knows how to win a war. And I'm not sure that the Bush people who are controlling Bush would actually agree. You know allow that because they have had a lot of struggles with Colin Powell who's been more of a moderating influence he has certainly saluted and marched like a good soldier ultimately defending the administration's policy but behind the scenes he has evidently complained vigorously and that's documented in Bob Woodward's book

and elsewhere. So it will be very interesting to see what happens politically that's different from what should happen legally and morally and in my opinion what should happen legally and morally is that regardless of how high up it goes they must be held accountable and that means that Rumsfeld should not just be asked to resign. Invest in war crimes investigations should be initiated against Rumsfeld as well. In my opinion I have some other people here and I want to get some of the questions but I wonder if I could ask you. Quickly kind of a legal question and it goes back to the issue of of responsibility the as we have said some of the people who were charged with abuse have said that what they were doing was with the approval of their superiors and for example this this young woman Lynndie England said that that and she was the person who is now in the photograph that has been so reproduced that it was so upsetting with that with the Iraqi naked Iraqi man lying on the

floor with the leash collar around his neck and she's standing there holding a leash and she apparently said that specifically that that was that photograph the pose in the picture had been the result of direct orders now if we're if what we were talking about here were war crimes that kind of defense doesn't doesn't wash but if we're talking about as she's being charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice then can she use the fact that she was ordered if indeed that she was or. To do something can she use that as a defense. No she can't use I was just following orders as a defense under the Uniform Code of Military Justice either. If she was being given an order that was illegal there is a duty to disobey an illegal order. Lieutenant William Calley tried that defense I was just following orders when he was charged with murder from the meal I massacre and that defense did not fly it didn't fly at Nuremberg and it wouldn't fly here as well. All right well we have some other callers and we'll continue the next in line is the champagne county line too. Hello. Good morning. Hello. Yes. OK.

I had two questions yesterday in the hearing the morning hearings. I guess it was the senator from Hawaii asked about contractors and also third country people were present and the contractors you implied could be done either by international law or could be tried hold held accountable I assume that would apply for a third country. But I don't hear a lot of people talking about the one thing and where and where they were they would come down or would it be have to go if they're military from another country would have to go through. Would the U.S. be inclined to let them do it in their own court or something I'm not sure if it could be a Seems to me that's kind of pie in the. But. The other question I had is that we're not we're talking about the the pictures and the sexual humiliation it gets diminished as a prank but the there is actual real torture and I guess some of the films.

Yesterday It's kind of I don't know how to call it it's the we have the snuff film put up by the people in Iraq but there there's some suggestion that there was actually some kind of documentation of a of a death and in the videos that were released and that's going the kind of speculation is going to happen if they don't release them. But I've also heard about 20 deaths and two prosecutions. And I think that 12 of the deaths that were by snipers and I been looking a little bit this morning just trying to figure out who's covering what what that part of the story is and I was wondering if you knew about that and the scenario that I've developed in my head of explaining how you would have sniper deaths at a prison is that there was you know the people were allowed out in the yard or something and they were they wouldn't return. There was a revolt in the prison and they shot people from above. Do you know anything about that.

Well the standing. Your first question the mercenaries who are U.S. citizens can be tried under U.S. law under the War Crimes Act or the torture act. The people who are not U.S. citizens could be if their country has ratified the International Criminal Court could be tried in an international criminal court or under principles of universal jurisdiction by any any country. Adolf Eichmann was tried in in Israel for his crimes during the Holocaust in Germany even though Israel didn't have any direct connection with what he did with his atrocities. They were they tried him convicted him and executed him in this. The principle of universal jurisdiction is a very well settled principle. Or they could be tried in the in their own courts in their own countries. And I know that a number of these mercenaries are not U.S. nationals. And so that is a problem. D And you're right that if the pictures in the videos are not released there's going to be speculation and

that's why I say it would suggest that neutral human rights organizations such as the International Committee of the Red Cross Human Rights Watch Amnesty International be allowed to view all the pictures and videotapes and then describe them in detail and release a report I think that's one way to get around it. I too had heard the number of 20 deaths from the Abu Ghraib prison into prosecutions in terms of the snipers in the church. I believe it was either the tuber report or the Red Cross report I can't remember which it described shooting of people who were who were revolting or escaping and and that you know may or may not amount to excessive force depending upon what the situation was but the way to you know it is not a proper method of capture to be shooting somebody in the back who's who's trying to escape shooting them dead. So yeah in terms of any more details on prosecutions I don't have any more

information than you do. I would presume that the place is fairly secure and I would I would I was the scenario I had in my head was people just didn't come in and they were summarily shot. Sort of a demonstration. Maybe I'm too inclined but again if that isn't talked about and released were the subject of speculation then I just did a couple cursory search of them post them times and can't find any any discussion of part of what was going on an hour ago. Well you know I will graham is really kind of a lawless enclave very much like the retired federal judge who was arguing in the Supreme Court on behalf of the Guantanamo prisoners. A few weeks ago described one ton of MO and it was not clear who was in charge it was it was there was a lot of chaos there this came through and certainly in general to Goodwin's report and

it and I believe I have also seen a report from a female. I can't remember where I read it I think it might have been in the Washington Post but I'm not sure. The female soldier at that prison who said that he was talking about two Iraqi prisoners were shot as they were escaping that's two less I have. I'm glad that happened to less than I have to worry about. So you know it may be that they were given opportunities to to run out the door and then they were shot. You know for sport or to to send a message. They're prisoners and it's very unclear and that's why these Hopefully these criminal investigations will uncover much more information about what really did go on there although Major General Taguba his report is is very thorough but I think that since all of this has become public it will empower many more people to come

forward and talk about what really happened. Let's go to another caller Gibson city line for Hello. Good morning. Yes I hope that I'll be able to make a brief comment and then hang up and listen to the comments of your guest upon my comment at this moment I'm not concerned about the culpability of the soldiers in the prison or the possible culpability of the leadership group in Washington D.C. at this moment I'm thinking about the attitude of the general public the general public people who sit around chatting in the coffee shops. And it seems to me that so many of them take the attitude we're Americans and therefore we're entitled to dominate the world. We are American macho men and therefore we are entitled to go brutally forward and trample everybody else under our feet. We are Americans and therefore the laws mean nothing to us we will do as we please in any case and we don't care about the United Nations or any laws or anything like that. Do you see any of that attitude in the general public and if so do you think it will influence what's happening now and listen. Well thank you for that comment. I you know I

believe that the overwhelming majority of American people are compassionate people and people that I have spoken to and e-mailed with and had communication with are just there in their in pain about what has happened and what they've seen and what has been done in their name. That's not to say that there are not people who who do have the type of mentality that the caller is describing about you know I venture to say that to the extent that people do feel that way that comes from the top that comes from the Cowboy in the White House who says bring Amman who says Mission Accomplished who gets into a flight suit and lands on an aircraft carrier and declares victory and then proceeds to send our troops to get killed and to be killed for more than a year later. Who devastates the

infrastructure of another country. And I really have to think that this particular humiliation and torture an inhuman treatment of these prisoners would not have happened if they weren't if they were white. I think there's a lot of racism involved here and I think there's a dehumanizing of other people who are not white. But I do and I'm not trying to relieve people of the responsibility who do feel that way. But I think that the example that is set by our leadership is is so destructive that it really encourages that type of of behavior when you when you say they're either with us or against us. And even the invasion of Afghanistan and I know that now with Iraq people look back and say well that in the nation of Afghanistan was justified but maybe Iraq wasn't. You know the country of Afghanistan the government of Afghanistan never attacked us

never threatened us. Most of those hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. And when Bush said in his macho way that either they turn over Osama bin Laden to us the Taliban turned over Osama bin Laden or we're going to go get them. What Let's turn the tables or. Let's say that after the Shah of Iran he was a vicious tyrant who tortured and murdered his people for 25 years who was put in by the US in the first place after the when the CIA overthrew a democratically elected government. But the shah was overthrown by a revolution and the Shah who was ill came to the United States is what was being harbored by the United States and was in New York receiving medical treatment for his cancer. What if the new Iranian government had said to Bush either you turn over the Shah to us or are we are going to invade and bomb your country countries just don't have a right to do that. They really don't. And I think that that mentality to the extent it exists in any people in this country comes from the top and that's why I think that

really the only way to stop the deaths and the wounding and there have been more than 11000 of our own soldiers wounded we never hear about that. The way to stop more death more killing more destruction of both Americans and Iraqis is for a regime change to take place in the White House because only then and I don't have allusions that Kerry is going to be able to solve the problem immediately. But that would change the dynamic to the extent that perhaps Kerry could go to those ayatollah who have so much support among the Iraqi people and negotiate a peaceful settlement. Because I don't see any other way. Certainly Ideally the U.S. should pull out. The U.N. should totally take over and the US should pay restitution for what it did to that country but that's not going to happen on Bush's watch. So I think that that's really the only way to stop the killing and stop the carnage. We're very close to being at the end of the time we have a number of other callers we're not going to get them all but let me try get one more at least in Chicago one one below.

I'm not going to ask my questions to such short time. I'm just going to give you some information about you said that racism was the factor that was out of the Pacific News Service and it's in the May 14th issue of National Catholic Reporter. They say that the South African foreign ministry estimates that fifteen hundred South Africans are those among the mercenaries. They're the people who boast at their application forms with their experience under apartheid regime and so I think that the use of dogs in some of these activities really reflects I believe the influence of the South African mercenaries and it's the fact that this they're trying to avoid looking at what they love to call civilian contractors really says to me that we're not going to get to the root of the problem when you have a press corps when you have. About a 30 second comment that we can land. Well I appreciate that and I didn't know that. And I agree

that this whole issue of mercenaries and I don't call them civilian contractors I call them mercenaries is a problem. We had a demonstration last week in San Diego at the Titan Corporation which is one of the two corporations that send they actually send translators and they're saying well we don't really have any liability that was a subcontractor they just translated. Well if you're a translator and you're asked to translate into Arabic threats to commit torture or murder then you're also complicit. And and it is true that these mercenary. You know interestingly the daily shelling of fluid and the killing of 70 percent of the some of the people have been killed by by the U.S. are civilians was in retaliation was in revenge for the killing of and horrible mutilation of four mercenaries. And and I wonder why they had such it's such anger against those people I mean there's no excuse for what they did to those four people but those were not U.S. soldiers those were mercenaries and Halliburton and

Bechtel and all those corporations are making billions and billions of dollars off of this war off of this this horrible death and destruction. We're going to have to leave it there. I want to thank you very much Professor Cohen for giving us some of your time today we appreciate it. My pleasure David.