Focus 580; Perspectives on Iraq

In this first hour of the program we'll be talking about Iraq and about American policy toward Iraq. And our guest with this program a gentleman who is arguably the leading if not one of the leading critics of American policy toward Iraq in this country his name is Ramsey Clark. He served for a couple of years between 1967 and 1069 as attorney general of the United States. And in 1902 he and some others formed an organization called the International Action Center formed that in order to call attention to the effects on the people of Iraq of the bombing of that country. And since they have also been involved in some other issues as well as a leader in the movements and sanctions on Iraq they were opposed to the expansion of NATO's bombing of Serbs and Bosnia. They would like to see an end to the blockade of Cuba. They have a fairly broad human rights agenda. He is here on the campus to talk about Iraq and will be giving a

couple of public talks he'll be speaking at noon today at the Courtyard cafe at the student union on the campus. And then after that the discussion will move to a line I rooms A and B beginning at 1:00. So if you're going around Champaign-Urbana and you're interested in hearing more from the guest you're welcome to attend. And of course as we talk here anyone listening is welcome to call. We have goalie callers that they try to keep their comments brief just so we can keep our program moving along and accommodate as many different people as we'd like to call anyone is welcome to call here in Champaign Urbana of the number 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Also we have a toll free line and that one's good. Anywhere that you can hear us so it would be a long distance call for you to use the toll free line that's 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 and locally 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 or wy L.L. same either way. Thank you very much for being with us. Well it's good to be with you. You got it. Beautiful road building in studio here

so it's nice to see such a fine facility on campus. Well we're very proud of the the organization the International Action Center now as I said does indeed have a fairly broad sort of human rights agenda a lot of things that you're interested in but it was Iraq that got this organization started. Why that and what was it about that issue that led you to feel that it was something that needed particular attention that you wanted to call people's attention to. Well actually the people who first organize International Action Center had been working on other issues for some time together informally. We've done a lot of work on 1989 invasion of Panama. You don't work on the age old embargo against Cuba. But I think direct involvement with

first the effort to prevent an assault on Iraq and then presence in Iraq. I went there on February the 2nd at the end of the second week of the bombing and stayed for this third and fourth week of what was only seven weeks of six weeks of bombing. So we had a pretty intense feeling of the horror of what was happening in the effect of the sanctions even then the Red Crescent told me in February of 91 during the bombing that already they thought 6000 children had died as a direct result of the sanctions. So that caused us to organize a little more formally. And our first major and continuing project tragically will go to is still going on in this is Iraq primarily the sanctions against Iraq.

You know you were there just recently and I believe in January you know who which had been the latest in a number of trips that you had made there to assess conditions in the country particularly related to the sanctions which have been going on now for more than nine years. What did you find there when you went. It's It's always heartbreaking to go to Iraq under the sanctions because of the desperate conditions of the people. It's also inspiring to see their courage and their determination particularly people in the health care field how they how they stand it I don't know every every doctor or nurse will tell you that they lose patients constantly every day that they could save easily with simple medications or simple therapies that aren't available. This was my tenth. A trip to Iraq since the sanctions were imposed first on

Hiroshima Day of 1990 all of us the six main thing that was reaffirmed is that the terrible death rate is continuing I've got some statistics that are I think important to observe that tell the story. Graphically the victims of sanctions which mean that you're not getting food you're not getting medicine you're not getting essential for a life. Nationally the weakest most vulnerable people in the society so the principal victims of sanctions are infants were fragile little children who were going through a shakedown cruise to see how tough they are and whether they make it. Elderly people who are waning into. Weakened condition and chronically ill people who need insulin and who need dialysis who need something costly or are they died.

We're just looking at the children. What we found on this ninth anniversary of the beginning of the bombing when we were there for was that the death rates of children under 5 continued to escalate radically in 1989 which was the last four year before sanctions. The numbers of children that died from the three principal causes of infant mortality of life live births. There were 70 110 recorded deaths of children under five in 1901 which is the first full year under the sanctions that had nearly quadrupled to 27000. It's gone up radically every year the first four year under the Food for Oil Program which is supposed to relieve the horrible death rates and sickness and the. Physical injuries are the sanctions.

There were this in 1907 there were fifty eight thousand eight hundred deaths of children under five. Remembering that we came from a base of 70 100. The next year 1998 the second year and the second full year under Hoover office 71000 up from fifty eight thousand to seventy one thousand. The first 11 months of 1909 there were seventy three thousand and there were more than 7000 in December which is usually a bad month anyway which means more than 80000 children. That's well over 10 times the number of children under five who were dying before the sanctions. And that's only in a minor part of the. The total physical devastation of the of the population. No let me forgive me for interrupting you but I did want to talk about the

oil the oil for food program that the United Nations came up with. The deal was that Iraq was going to be allowed to sell 10 billion dollars worth of oil every year and then used the proceeds to buy things like medicine and food to provide for the basic needs of the Iraqi people. Why is assuming that you would say that this program hasn't been successful. Why has it not worked one might argue that 10 million dollars wasn't enough but it's a significant amount of money and one would think that that would help to ease the suffering of the people of Iraq. Why has that not done that. Frankly I think it was just I don't write. It but it is to me. Want to. Switch to going to take a

detour. A little. Let it look at it a bit. Could be a going to be able to put on a. Protest at it but that is. Going to be Amy. I'm going to get at her going to the people of America the Beautiful. But I just of union pitched it. Of that with the fact I want to be.

One of them when we get looked at again and it. Warms. Up a little. What if Couric intake in Iraq was quite high very 400 calories per day per adult person. And the government was spending about 20 billion. And the service social food sector Iraq was importing more than half of its food as most Arab countries have done for some time particularly the oil rich Arab countries so that their food distribution sute food subsidy programs.

So you can see immediately that 10 million is only half. But in addition while the program promised to 10 million. And contracts have been per year and been now three years and contracts have been proffered for about 30 billion. Iraq has actually received under six billion. The U.S. and the U.N. have taken more than 9 billion. Both for what they call reparations and damages and to manage the programs which are strangling Iraq so you're paying its first tribute. We remember we used to say Millions for defense but not one cent for tribute. And second you're paying the enemy so to speak you're financing the very people who are strangling you. Now if you

look at the at the less than six billion that's come through in three years it's average under 2 billion a year which is less than 10 percent of what you were paying. But if you look at vital things like water. Iraq water system was absolutely devastated and bad water had been one of the principal causes of death of little babies will dehydrate quickly if they have diarrhea and vomiting they can go and in a matter of a day or so and you don't have any rehydration tablets he got to have good water they had contracted for more than 700 million dollars for water purification they won't get chlorine have no chlorine most cities in the United States use chlorine customary in the war they can't get chlorine even refuses to prove chlorine the U.S. can veto it by itself. No chlorine for Iraq. They've gotten less than 9 percent. About 65 million out of the 700 million they sought. The amount of

food that they've gotten has been approved at a rate of just under 70 percent and their daily caloric intake from all ration food and they have the government has a monopoly on the basic staples and they distribute it equally to every person in the country rich and poor and alien and citizen and Muslim and Christian and atheist if there are any and the rest are by guess. Eleven hundred calories. So what you see is a continuing deficiency Now these years are building on years of severe privation. The kids have had amoebic dysentery and the adults have had tuberculosis and diabetes is just destroying them. And still Mao nutrition and still inadequate medicine going to the hospitals in their absolutely disastrous It is heartbreaking to see the money in the pharmacies are empty and the they don't have linens at all do you bring in your own men and if they don't have to and the septics they don't have anesthesia they don't have catheters they don't have

they don't have clean water. So it will take many billions. You see that in spite of three years of food for oil and the U.N. has to approve each contract and it delivers each purchase into the country and it monitors its distribution. So there's no cheating on the thing you can't you can't convert Rice from Vietnam where most of the rice is coming from into bullets or into something else. So it's simply not enough. The death rates have continued to skyrocket as I mentioned earlier the first full year the number of deaths under the children of five under five was fifty eight thousand and last year it was 80000. But let me at this point I probably should introduce you again to people who might have tuned in the last five minutes or or so. We're talking this morning with Ramsey Clark. He is one of the founders and chair of the International Action Center which is based in New York human rights organization that is concerned about a number of

issues and one of those that really got to go informally as an organization was the Iraq war. And they have been very concerned since that time of the effects of bombing on the people of Iraq and also of the continued U.N. sanctions against Iraq and they're concerned with other issues well that's just one of them they do by the way have a website so if you're interested seeing something of their what their organization is all about you can do that check it out. And of course calling here if you have questions. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. I want to raise a question that I'm sure that that will some people would would ask if they had the opportunity. And that is they would they would argue that the one person who is in the best position to ease the suffering of the people of Iraq is Saddam Hussein. And that if all that he would have to do would be to abide by the agreement reached that had been reached between the government of Iraq and the UN

in the United Nations after the Gulf War to allow for inspections in Iraq to make the determination that Iraq does not have weapons of mass destruction and if that happened the sanctions would be lifted and that this is something that the government of Iraq has never never fully complied with and that if they did we wouldn't have they wouldn't have the problems that you have have talked about. The short answer is that you know you can't kill children because you don't like what a political leader. Does or doesn't do. You can't make the elderly and the chronically ill and the children the victims of your conduct because Saddam Hussein or anybody else doesn't do what you demand the cause of the deaths is you're depriving the people of food and medicine.

The Geneva Conventions prohibit the use of starvation as a weapon of war. We're using it as a weapon of peace and coercion. The Geneva Conventions require you to give medicine and medical care to an enemy soldier who was shooting at you. Thirty seconds ago if you can safely do so I mean you don't have to run outta your foxhole and getting what if. If you're in a position and you have the medicine and you can administer it to him you are obligated as a matter of law it is a war crime not to do it. And here we are depriving infants and children and pregnant women and elderly people and diabetics and others of essential medicines. So if Saddam Hussein commits suicide he could do anything but we are responsible for what we do. And we are the ones that are imposing these sanctions we're the ones that have used sanctions internationally and consistently around the world more than 70

percent of all the sanctions used since World War Two have been U.S. sanctions and most of them have been unilateral. And if you look at Cuba and you'll see how incredibly out of touch with the feelings of the world what we do you've got 11 million Cubans. We have reduced their daily caloric intake by about 50 percent that if you think about that all day long you know your stomach is grouty is empty you're hungry. People are doing this to you 11 million people collective punishment because we don't like it. Well Castro could end all that you know he could get in a boat and try to get them to Key West and drown. But we're the ones that are imposing the blockade. The U.N. resolve the General Assembly had a resolution to condemn the United States for its unilateral sanction on Cuba has had it every year for years the last two votes is an illustration of world opinion one hundred fifty seven countries voted to condemn the United States for its sanction is a blockade as they call it Brok AOE against Cuba too. Who opposed that

condemnation. So you can demonize someone all you want to but you cannot. Escape the responsibility for the consequences of your own acts and these sanctions are the acts of the United States. Even in the permanent representation on the Security Council only the United Kingdom joins the United States in favoring the sanctions. France and the Russian Federation People's Republic of China oppose most poor countries opposed it because A they realize that they're victims of sanctions in other ways as their as their economies and their people under the. Some people have argued that the this the sanction sanctions against Iraq have certainly been imperfect and leaky and that for some time now Iraq has been smuggling oil out of the country by loading it onto ships and moving in Iranian waters to try to insulate those ships from being inspected and boarded by Americans as just recently happened with with a

Soviet tanker that was found to have Iraqi oil in it. It was according to a story that appeared fairly recently in The New York Times. This has been happening more and more recently and they quote American intelligence estimates that say just in the month of December alone Iraq smuggled out over 300000 metric tons of oil at today's price they say that Sixty two million dollars worth that's just in the month of December. That would suggest that the government of Iraq has significant resources that they could draw on. Aside from the fact that there are sanctions aside from the fact that maybe the Food for Oil program doesn't work and that they've got the money and that if they're not spending it to take care of their people that's that's and that's not US sanctions that's a government that is interested in prolonging the suffering of its people because it makes the U.S. and the U.N. and its allies look bad. If that argument overlooks the obvious truth of the matter it implies that the sanctions have no effect. They've got plenty of money then why have the sanctions you know that's

that doesn't make any sense does it. The fact is that the amount of oil that is smuggled if it's as high as they claim is still in significant. It's a minor fraction of the food for oil. Quantities which we just demonstrated were less than 10 percent of what was being expended earlier when everything was in a state of collapse and disrepair. But before we get too horrified about smuggling all oil we could ask two questions. If your children were sick or hungry. Would you just sit there. Would you try to do something. Would you try to get some food medicine. Would you smuggle a little of your own oil it's not like you're stealing some buys all your own oil. Who says you can't sell it and why. What we ignore is that the sanctions are a crime against humanity in the Nurnberg sense that they deliberately inflict collective punishment on a whole nation.

And as a lawyer who worked for years on the genocide convention I worked for years trying to get the united states to ratify the genocide convention I want the American Bar Association convention for about 15 years for no other purpose than to urge the American Bar Association as a legal group to say look let's abide by international law are we against genocide or are we for it with the sanctions or genocide Here's what the Genocide Convention says genocide. This is article two gents I can mention means any of the following acts. Deliberately inflicting on a group. In whole or in part with intent to destroy because of its nationality its ethnicity its race or religion. Conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

Well if that's not what the sanctions are calculated to do intentionally and deliberately What else. And so now there's oil dribbling in you're going to worry about it. You can only enforce sanctions by a power if we didn't have those if we didn't have the largest naval armada that sent World War to in the Gulf. We couldn't stop the Russian tanker could we. We couldn't prevent the oil from coming out it has to be done by force you have to have superior force and you've got to punish people who who violated by buying or selling it would be. The fact remains that the sanctions. And you know oil prices internationally reflect it and everybody knows it have prevented Iraq from participating in the international economy by the sale of it or oil which is its principal source of income. And it is causes devastating condition on the people and it has prevented them from having essential of life in violation of the Geneva conventions

including food and medicine. The the the United States government is on the record clearly on the record saying Secretary of State has said it. I'm not certain the president himself has said it but the government has said it that they want to see a change of government in Iraq. It's very very clear. They I'm sure no one would ever go on the record as saying that this the sanctions pressure putting pressure on the people is part of a strategy to either to have them rise up and replace their government or something else but do you do you think that that is indeed a deliberate move on the part of the government that's part of the thinking of the government. It's not only inhumane if it is you know what you're saying if you push everybody into they can't stand anymore they uprising and overthrow their government.

But it. It's out of touch with reality. The reality is known to everyone who thinks and anyone who can go there and see. And that is that the sanctions have unified the people of Iraq is very few things could they see their government as their principal means of support. Poor people get virtually all of their food from their government. They get all of their health care. Pitiful as it is inadequate it is from their government. They see the United States is depriving them of the thirty four hundred calories they got a day before their sanctions instead of the eleven hundred they're getting now. And the fact that their baby just died because he didn't have a rehydration

tablet that wouldn't cost two cent. Because the United States sanctioned so it necessarily in terms of human nature unifies the people and they are unified. They've never been before. That doesn't mean in the Kurdish areas where we've walked off areas where we've financing rival groups that there is not hostility and all but they're the people of Iraq are driven to support their government as if their real lifeline call here online wanting champagne get it. Hello. The oil for people go for food. Deal with it. You referred to earlier and now we have it from the 34 veteran of United Nations Irishman Dennis Halliday who resigned and is now speaking out against the sanctions that it isn't possibly going to work. Even if it was totally successful it would provide I think 25 cents a day

per capita. The other thing is that there seems to be a pattern of. What items are not verified you mentioned chlorine not being allowed through. But there's this kind of sort of that there's a pattern of even and and medical supplies of weeding out sort of pivotal items. But it seems that it's. It's quite a facade and I think you worked with voices in the wilderness I understand too who've been symbolically violating the sanctions. And then this recently you helped load school supplies I'd like for you to tell people what our government is defining as sanctionable items. Thank you very much. It's nice to hear you nice to know of how well informed you are and people are

becoming I hope I didn't how today's hero we should know that he's one of the few people we've seen recently who's resign from office. In a career damaging way because he couldn't stand to do something that is wrong is manage as he and he was the principal manager for the Food for Oil program he could see of just a means of not prolonging actually with worsening the tragic condition of the Iraqi people. It's quite incredible to examine the medicines in items that are excluded vehicles in Iraq generally are in a state of disrepair 80 percent of the former sanitation garbage type trucks are out of business and a lot of garbage laying around needless to say. No ambulances not an ambulance. Sometimes you need an ambulance pretty bad and you can't get one anyplace. In Iraq they had a contract

for ambulances and it was rejected. No I am going to have as they claim they are they could they had dual use that use them for tanks or something I guess and so they get no I'm going to hit one of the one of the most remarkable achievements of medical science has been its vaccinations of common communicable diseases for children. And we've had for some years now the single shots inoculations it can take care of five or six. Been on combinations that you put in different diseases and a lot of them are fatal and a lot more damaging permanently to children. Most children in rich countries virtually all children get them. They've saved tens of millions of lives internationally by just campaigns going and marketing here which I you can't get those inoculations in Iraq. Can you imagine that for measles and chicken pox. Who can cough him up something like I just don't get him the kids are going to have to have it too bad and I

hope to enjoy it. The are some strategic things that you can't get or sutures. The number of the amount of surgery in the country is down to about 22 percent what it was before the war. Only emergency cases anything that can be put off. You put off and you might be able to get. For particular surgery most of the stuff you need you don't have sutures where you know you. If you open that person up you better be prepared to fall back together otherwise you don't have a problem. And if that sort of thing that's been done time and time again voices in the wilderness has gone and heroically time and time again and we've gone in with them many times they're wonderful people. They defy the blockade so to speak. We do too.

Our biggest medical shipment we carried it in we came in from I came in that time from Syria just to show that Syrian government view we're going to let a big truck load not pay the truck with said medicine for Iraq would drive down the streets of Damascus and elsewhere in Syria and people were first surprised to see it. And then they would cheer if you drive down the street people would cheer and when they and this is of course used in Arabic as well as English but and we we took in that time something over five million dollars worth of medicine which is pitifully small in a way but it was a contribution to many many American people who just wanted to try to give something they might save a child they might help. This time in January of this year just a couple of weeks ago. We took in medicine primarily for tuberculosis. Tuberculosis was pretty well

controlled and eliminated now it's rising from all kinds of conditions it'll be years and years before you get control back on tuberculosis they need a lot of medicine. We took in about 2 million from tuberculosis and a million more from other special items that they particularly needed. And folks are doing that more and more. As you can see though. It's woefully inadequate. It helps every little bit helps but it's a minor fraction of even the Food for Oil Program which is woefully inadequate. It's the only way it one of the one of the tragedies is that there is there is terrible suffering all over the world and in most situations the people can't really help themselves they're in war they're in famine they're in drought and they're desperately poor. Iraq was able to provide it is able to provide. It is deliberately prevented from providing

there's a direct policy of United States government and it's killing their people and stopping those who survive there's a stunted generation underdeveloped small just to watch the. But also a healthy birth weight. Statistics is heartbreaking one thousand eighty nine. Less than 5 percent about four and a half percent of the infants born alive or at birth weight below two and a half kilos to be born below two and half you know it means a lot of things you've probably seen some of that are in the paper recently about how they don't perform well in school they're underdeveloped they're higher percentage is much higher retardation things like that. But there are also organs that didn't didn't vote they don't work well including the heart liver and whatever it is that has gone up every year until now one child and one infant in four born in Iraq is twenty four point five percent are born under two and a half kilos. I mean

all the rest are good healthy babies and good all the rest RAF acted too or at least 95 percent of the rest are affected. That's why you have a stunted generation. That's what we're doing to those people with the sanctions and it's one of the great crimes of our history. You get a chance to look at your latest document on the figures about water. Amazing the amount of rebuilding that needs to be done. This goes back nine years and not just water for drinking but I guess the irrigation system was bombed at the very beginning. This isn't a desert climate obviously. The myriad of encyclopedia things that could be spoken of but the one point that I did ask in the park question was that I believe that you broke a blockade with pencils. So is this the case.

We took in a couple million pencils they were happily we took some from here but they were happily provided overwhelmingly by the people of Jordan and by schoolchildren in Jordan. I tell you what you see it's unbelievable. You need huge garbage piles in the cities. You see children in go. Scrambling to find paper because there's no paper for the. Sure you can't you can't learn to write if you can't go. You don't have time to write on. You don't have a pencil you don't have professors and college students don't have pencils you know you don't think of not having a pencil nothing and nothing to write with. You can't get in through the sanctions because they think there's graphite in there or whatever it is you make a bomb out of a pencil you know. So we took in a whole lot of pencils and created a lot of joy and no part of it I asked for six months maybe not quite that long.

We we have just about 10 minutes left help the caller forgive me because I have another caller here and I want to get them in and then also one more time again I think I should introduce our guest. We're talking with former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark. He is the one of the founders and chair of the International Action Center based in New York City an organization that among other things has been working to try to call people's attention to the effects that sanctions against Iraq have had on the people of Iraq he'll be speaking by the way on the campus today. And get one more time before the end I'll tell you where you can go to hear the talk questions welcome 3 3 3 W I L L toll free 800 1:58 W while if you'd like to call in. Here's another caller in Urbana this is lie number two. Hello. Yeah you're Ramsey Clark. I have a short question and then maybe you can offer up a law question I don't know. But the short question is to you Do you see much difference.

Or do you see mostly similarities between the situation in Iraq and the Cuban situation. And then my second question was relative to that person. The major difference and I don't mean to diminish the suffering of the human people is the severity of the sanctions. Against Iraq. They are the most severe sanctions ever imposed on an entire nation and maintain for such a lengthy period of time and they affect every aspect of life for everybody every moment of every day. Cuba's sanctions or blockade is is the United States alone.

It you know we try to prevent other people from doing business with them but Canada France and Spain and others do a lot of business. They've suffered it terribly and in large part because with the collapse of eastern bloc countries they lost most of their trading partners and they've had to re-establish trade and all but they're industrious people and they're coming back. Well although the dominant fact in their lives and it will remain so if the blockade ended today will be this long period of privation. Forced by their good neighbor to the north. You don't have anything like a Death Race. There was that terrible moment when they were having mysterious blindness. You remember and we went down with a bunch of doctors from New York and elsewhere ophthalmologists oculus and the others it would know about site.

Also some medical historians. And pretty soon found that they didn't know what the cause was if they thought it might be an insecticide some of the first cases were young men working in tobacco fields. They were having first thousands and then tens of thousands of young people going behind and what they'd finally detected was that they had an agricultural revolution going on because they had to produce more food so office workers and others who used to hard work and the young strong people were getting less rations because they were stronger and they didn't need as much rations and suddenly they were having to bicycle out because he didn't have gasoline to go in a vehicle or didn't have a vehicle that would take him out to field and they were working in the heat nearby sick and back again. And slowly there there was a huge vitamin B deficiency accumulating and they were and they were losing eyesight when they want to figure it out they flew in literally millions remember the first plane load about 35 million vitamin B tappets. They destroyed him all over the

country and said everybody take three today and we'll get you some more as soon as we can. And they stopped it after it reached about 75 people. It was terrifying the only other historical episodes like that were prisoners of war camp in hot climates. And during World War Two where the prisoners were made to work hard on meager rations and they had this strange phenomena occurring that's where we would need I think it was when we discovered what the cause was meant to. I didn't mean to sidetrack your your talk but now I've gotten all of my books. The second question perhaps you can blow off it might be I might be threw up a wall but I was reading in the newspaper that the FBI had the ballz they had up 33 page dossier on John Denver which I thought was pretty laughable you know and then you know because it's kind of like a peacenik and suddenly occurred to me. Why is it that

nobody nobody questioned the FBI investigating people who are for peace and and yet to my knowledge they do not investigate people who are pro-war. And that was kind of curious if you had any kind of insight into that. Well the logic of it is it dear against peace and for war. They investigate for security purposes. People who go into the into classified work in the military establishment but that's just to assure their purity and their willingness absolutely to obey authority whatever. Whatever the command. We ought to face up to the fact that we have real problems with our law enforcement it's excessive use of violence. I'm struggling in the Waco case now and it's just heartbreaking to see how you know they cover up and

they don't. They just don't tell you what you do and when you realize a 33 pages very small dossier would John Denver in that outrageous what kind of free society is that you know. I appreciate the coming of the call I want to try to get at least one more will go to champagne here line one. Hello Mr. CLARK. You may have mentioned this but you know a little late but I'm interested in knowing what you know one of the arguments that I was surprised not to have heard you make against the sanctions was that. Saddam and his cronies and his family's family are actually getting rich off. There Anything to that argument. I don't think there is. It's a hard way to get rich in it. I mean the more money with the smuggling smuggling the smuggling is pretty small time stuff. If you can shell Thirty five billion dollars worth of oil why do you want to smuggle. Fifty million you know

doesn't make a lot of sense does it. The fact is that when you smuggle oil do you get the lowest price on the market don't you. And the highest cost and the highest risk. It's not it's not a high profit. I'm not sure I'm I'm not sure oil is what I'm referring to here I'm not sure what all of the. I want all the commodities. It may actually be finished oil products coming into Iraq and other other kinds of products as well that are that are. Prohibited from the sanctions but are still important to the society. Well the more money the society has the more money you can steal. It just doesn't it's not good arithmetic to think that you know that anybody's. I mean it may not be privateers the food system's been checked out it's monitored costly by the U.N. I've watched it. It's it's the fairest most effective food distribution system I've ever seen I go back to rationing here and in World War 2 or remember people cheating on sugar and

coffee and gasoline and shoes and stuff like that. You don't find that cheating over there because everybody knows everybody depends on what they're getting and they have they have to have it. I don't see a profit motive is making any sense what I see is the United States throwing up every propaganda item. They'll say he's got a new yacht on the Euphrates. There are no yachts on the Euphrates you know. They have been on the freight a long time. I'll guarantee you one thing if Saddam Hussein had a yacht and it was on the Euphrates he'd never set foot on it because he remembers how they tried to hit him with the Tomahawk cruise missile in the ol Rashid Hotel and elsewhere would be the last thing in the world he did makes absolutely no sense these are foolish arguments that are cruel because they know that they continue the causes that are killing children. OK thank you on the what you have you have argued made the argument that it is unjust to inflict suffering on the

people of Iraq because we don't like their government. If we should lift the sanctions against Iraq we'd still some people would say we still face a fundamental problem that we have a leader of a country that clearly is a threat to his region. He has demonstrated his belligerence against his neighbors has demonstrated an interest in developing weapons of mass destruction. So then the question is what do we do about that if indeed we should do anything about it. Well I I don't think that. It's for us to determine who had the governments of the world. If you look at our record we substituted democratically elected Mossad backed with the Shah of Iran didn't wait 25 years of tyranny. The first prime minister elected in a free Congo was Patrice Lumumba in 1982 his body was found in the trunk of a CIA car

and Mobutu reigned in Congo from 62 until two years ago. An absolute reign of terror. Pinochet ad and show they are being pursued somewhat Now for its human rights violation. It was our man Santiago. We participated in the overthrow of Allende Arbenz in Guatemala are we the ones that are going to determine who heads these governments. But what we have to realize is that if the sanctions were off we wouldnt be responsible because we are responsible for the acts of our government for 80000 deaths of children under 5 next year. I would hope Americans would feel a little better about themselves if they didn't have that responsibility. But there must be some accountability for what we have done a million and a half Iraqi people have died because of the sanctions and they are criminal. Well at that we're going to have to close. I do want to mention again however our guest Ramsey Clark

will be speaking today on the U of I campus of the courtyard cafe at noontime that's in the line our union. And then after that discussion continues in a line I rooms A and B at one. Thank you very much. Thank you.