Focus; How the U.S. Department of Agricultures Redefinition of the Word Organic Changed the Industry

I'm Todd Gleason This is focus 580 sitting in the chair this morning for David engine this second hour of focus 580 the 11 o'clock hour Central Time we'll be talking about organic standards and how things have changed in that industry and how the organic organizations are using different marketing techniques to get their word out and what has happened over the last decade or so with organic crop production and our guest today will be Peter Goldsmith who is an ag a condom ist at the University of Illinois and that I work with and he's in Mumford hall we both work for the college of agricultural consumer and environmental sciences here. And Bill Wolff who's is the founder and president of Wolfson Associates Incorporated will tell you just a bit more about him. That organization provides strategic consulting management support organic product development and the profitability analysis for firms intervening into the organic industry. Good morning to you Bill thanks for joining us by phone. Where are you located this morning by the way. Morning thank you for inviting me. I just returned from a trip overseas to Europe

and Iceland and I'm my offices are in New Castle Virginia near Virginia Tech. I wasn't quite sure I saw that you were on the Ray Street there in Newcastle but wasn't sure whether that was where we had called you whether you were off gallivanting across the globe. I got back late last night. You know what I'd like to do is to start by talking about the definition of organic and I imagine you have a pretty good handle on this that changed in the 90s as USDA and the organizations just realized how big the growth might be in the organic industry and the need for organic foods organically grown foods across the world would be what happened during the 90s and how did that definition change. Well I think that what really happened is that we moved from a philosophical definition to a regulated government controlled definition. But the intentions remained the same. In other words the word of Chantix still stands for a commitment to agricultural

practices that strive for a balance with nature using methods and materials which are of low impact to the environment. And I'm basically doing it the gentlest way possible. But in practical terms the term now is controlled by a federal law that can be enforced with fines and prison. So it is now a production system managed in in accordance with the organic foods Production Act which was passed in 1990 and then took 12 years of regulatory hearings to actually be fully implemented by the USDA under the national organic program. And it took such a long time because the small organic farmers were arguing with the larger corporations about what the standard should be is that a decent assessment or not. I think not I think there were a lot of issues we had never fully vetted. I think that there was some of that. But fundamentally.

Clarifying all kinds of issues as to exactly what we mean when we say we should use compost in organic farming for example. At what point can you use raw manure versus compost organic now has a clear regulatory requirement as to what point in time you must switch raw raw manure is can only be used on fields where you have at least one hundred and twenty days prior to the harvest of the crop. Organic in fact is the only food system that regulates the application of manure. After that time you must use compost. In other words there's concern not only about the potential for E.coli high but there's also concern about the biological systems in the soil. So those kinds of details were were not articulated that well. If you read the original guidelines for Gannett foods production that were written in 1984 and published by the organic foods

production Association which is now known as Otieno or the Organic Trade Association. And that document as it is now 21 years old and you read the regulations today. The actual principles are the same the concepts behind the the the rule in other words. In both cases you have a third party certification by an independent agency and today that agency is has to be accredited by the USDA. You have an audit trail so that you can determine where where the where the food is coming from or the fiber or the cotton or the clothing. You have an annual independent inspection to verify compliance where there Janick regulations. You have a defined conversion period generally three years. In other words the soils must have been managed in or get using organic methods for at least three years. And most importantly.

You have a sustainable farm plan. You have to develop the farm plan that shows what your methods are and how you're going to manage the soil sustainably and and manage so that you do. Do you have the most ecologically appropriate pest met pest control methods as a part of this when someone looks at a packaged product at the store level. The important thing is that the real value is that it's a production method that's being verified on the farm and the real value is being created on the farm. After that the integrity of that product has to be maintained throughout the process in terms of handling processing and so that everyone involved is responsible to maintain that that better better seal. That's kind of a quick few. But fundamentally I think the challenge has always been that we've taken a philosophy and codify that the

philosophy said work with nature improve soil fertility reduce agricultural pollution recycle within the system increase biodiversity and the principle that healthy plants come from healthy soils and it will have healthy people and healthy animals as a result. It's interesting that you mentioned the Organic Trade Association and I'll come back back to this in just a second with a question that I'd like to ask Peter Goldsmith here and in studio but I wondering just one more question on how things changed with the implementation of the new organic standards did it open up for instance the organic crop Improvement Association which I believe was the national organization that was doing most of the certification prior to 1990 and probably does a lot of it still to larger. Organizations and companies for instance stadiums of the world to be able to allow them to go

to to have a broader definition of organic. You know in order for the marketing channels to be larger in size. The certification agency you mentioned was joined in the 90s by a number of competing certifiers become. So we now have over 90 certification agencies accredited by the USDA. The trend to have larger companies involved in organic I think was driven more by the fact that we are now a substantial growing segment of food production organic represented a tiny tiny field in 1990 it was perhaps 700 million dollars in sales today at 13 billion dollars. It's the fastest growing segment of the of the organic of food. It's growing in double digits over 20 percent a year most years and has been for 15 years so what's happened is that the major food companies are paying

attention and looking at participating and that that is occurring by their own brands. It's also occurring through acquisition. I think fundamentally there are really probably two things that have happened in that is that in in the late 80s and early 90s there was not a lot of processed organic food most organic food was produce directly sold locally and some juices and some very simple processed food. But we didn't have complex processed foods. So during the regulatory process that was one of the more controversial issues of what what materials could be used could baking powder be used could vitamin C be used citric acid be used for stabilizing packaged foods and that became a major factor in the ability of some of the food processing companies to enter the field. In addition the the concept of organic. Many people felt really

was about food. Some other important social values and food nutrition values. In other words where sugar could sugar be organic. Could you grow organic cane and then have organic white sugar. Could white flour be organic. Could food. Could you have an organic Twinkie essentially. And the fact is that the organic the organic community debated this and said that those are. There are other claims that can be made about food local food dollars. Worker worker ownership how workers are treated. All those are important issues but fundamentally or the term organic. It is about the production method itself and those additional crimes and additional values should be addressed but are not addressed under the term organic. Peter when I was asked to host focus 580 and set an for David interstate they wanted to

know what I'd like to talk about in this one. This particular topic was precipitated from an email. Like many of us here at the university get from time to time and that came from a farm broadcaster a friend of mine in Peoria and this email just had a link in it and said Todd who who should we talk to at the university about these issues in the Organic Trade Association had sponsored and I'm not sure that it's the sole sponsor but had it at least they have a link to a little short movie. That's a spoof of Star Wars on their website called store wars and this particular person had said well in this store Wars movie it shows a grocery cart going through through the through the store in a very space like fashion and it's firing lasers at all kinds of produce and then there are bananas that are that are marching that are supposed to be the bad bananas and they are if they're carrying them they look a little bit like Rambo I suppose.

But anyway the idea was that in this particular movie it highlighted some of the differences between organic production and normal production and. The fact that they're not using the pesticides in of course it suggests of the pesticide use it was bad and many other things and she wanted. And the question was in my mind well is this an idea of pesticides being the issue here that they're really rotten for the environment. If you can say that or is it fact that the Organic Trade Association is playing off its its its strings and segmenting the market in the way that you and I discussed I suppose over time that you can have a commodity or if you segment it out you can reap more rewards from that segment and part of the marketplace. So how does that all play into what you when you look and study organics or commodities the beef industry the pork industry

how does segmenting the market out help and help reap more benefits to the farmers to the players along the line. Right yeah. I think your focus on segmentation is very very important and that's what is really powerful unique in important about organic or for agriculture. In that the producers have been able to deliver production system and Bill explained it really really nicely and codifying this philosophical understanding about farming practices and consumers value that. And from a marketing perspective it's just a form of differentiation and the claim of organic in the stamp of organic is nothing more or nothing less than saying that the practices behind this product have been codified in and are such and such. And consumers value that much

like any other form of differentiation or strength of a brand. This happens to be a generic brand the the the green seal. But it is a commitment that says behind this product certain practices have occurred. And what's very important about this generic brand versus branding in general is that the value is being created. And I don't want to say all that but much of it captured by producers which is a very good thing for rural communities and the agricultural sector. The listeners this morning we're talking with Peter Goelz meth AG economist from the University of Illinois and Bill Wolff the founder and president of Wolfe and associates about organic food production how it happens in the United States today how it has changed in the last decade and a half. If you'd like to join our conversation the number to call is 1 800 toll free 2 2 2 9 4 5 5 again that's 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5 or locally 2 1 7 3 3 3

9 4 5 5 94 55 of course stands for w oil bill I take it you're familiar with this store Wars movie trailer that is on the website I think the address is. What is it is it a dot org is actually a dot com dot com. You know I I was. The OT is the Organic Trade Association and they they co-produced this spoof with a movie producer and released it mate and they released it in conjunction with the annual All things are Janick trade show in which was held at McCormick Center in Chicago a few weeks ago and basically you've captured it very well. It was kind of a fun story and you can find more details on it at our website. I think for me I saw it and it didn't. Frankly I'm a former broadcaster so sometimes that tends to Jade you or you might

think that would lead you to one side or the other but it didn't didn't bother me in particular what I found interesting was the first thing I actually did was to go to the website and look up who the members of the LTA were and Adium of course was there they list of the mouth medically so Archer Daniels Midland shut up to begin with. And then the one I thought was the funniest given what I saw in the movie and the bananas was that Chiquita. Sure. Was also a member of this organization did they. And how how do you interact with. Because we we contacted them nationally and got to you. So tell me about your interaction and then if you've heard from Jackie to keep it all. I am a volunteer in an and was on th board in the 1990s I was president of the trade. The president of the board of directors for several years and then then moved on to help found a research institute in your field.

I do not know the interaction between Chiquita and I do know that but the process within the TSA is one in which he has about sixteen hundred members and some members are very small natural foods co-ops and some are companies like Whole Foods and wild oats and others are companies like General Mills and Heinz and Dean Foods and smokers all of whom of have organic products. I mean Heinz has launched there again to catch up. As has Campbell's with they were Gammick juices So there's a broad range of organic products entering the marketplace almost every major major food processor in in the country is looking at having a ape a product or two in the organic category. Basically doesn't usually take a position of anti anybody. Rather organic is about a choice that people can make in the marketplace. Organic has grown today to be a

round of four between 13 and 14 billion dollars in sales a little over between two and three percent of the total food dollar. And at that rate it and it's continuing to grow in double digits and at 20 percent a year it's it's becoming a you know an important factor. But really what's exciting to look at at the farm level is that many of the practices that are introduced in by creative organic farmers become the methods that the company up and go beyond organic farming. I've worked with I've worked with large growers who only have a couple percent of the rate courage certified. But in fact fact. See many of these methods really work well and then introduce them through across the board regardless of how they're being labeled and so we do see and are dramatic dramatic reductions in soil erosion and in chemical applications and in the use of toxic materials both in crop production

and in use in livestock. We see dramatic reductions in hormone and in the biotech you sinner in organic meat production. We have a caller on the line from Indiana on our toll free line thank you caller for joining us this morning. How are you today. Oh do you have a question or comment you'd like to ask this morning. I hope it can be answered. Unfortunately I think I may be so far out of date it doesn't make sense to ask it ask it anyway. I was when I was in school in graduate school in the 60s found a lot of this stuff that the organic shift started it was almost a political statement. I don't know whether it is now especially you mention Heinz and Campbell's I figure that that's long gone by now. But I remember people making rather extravagant claims about organic food for your health and hair and toenails and everything else that come out of this. I was wondering now that you see that it's you know it's become a capitalistic thing basically.

In this organization where they make out the principles of what organic farming is I wonder if they still make any claims in regard to health issues. You know the broad sense. You know it's not wearing copper bracelets but it's you know it's next to it and saying God what if you make some comments about that. Peter I do have some comments would you like to go forth. Yeah go ahead. Folliot sure I first of all there are some very specific things that are are proven and provable. And we kind of we can look at it both from why people buy organic and also from the actual data. The the we have there is now an Organic Center for Education and and and information that is it's focusing just on this topic of documenting the health benefits of organic and determining what's true and what isn't.

And the there is a separate web page that people can go to just for that that information it's called the organic it's organic dash center dot org. And the two benefits that have already clearly been documented by a number of studies is that organic food does reduce pesticide exposure. What that turns into is there's a lot of argument about but organic foods are significantly less likely to contain detectable Pathet pesticide levels and organic diets can reduce children's exposure to organophosphates to below EPA chronic reference doses. The second benefit is that eating organic meats definitely reduces the consumption of antibiotics and artificial hormones. The the the recent comparative studies indicate that organic food farming and food processing does elevate antioxidant levels in food. That there are nutritional differences in materials for example there was a study

done recently that compared catch ups and organic catch up consistently contained at least 50 percent higher levels of lycopene. So. A number of facts coming through now. Same same is true with antioxidant levels and strawberries and so the thought that that organic could be healthier seems to be connected to in fact the method of growing producing higher nutrient content in the food in a more balanced form. Closing in on the bottom of the hour here listeners at 11:30 We're talking with Bill Wolff and Peter Goldsmith about organic foods. Do you want to comment on the claims. Yeah I thought it was an excellent question about the relationship especially here at the university between science and organic and that's been I think all along been a very delicate difficult issue.

And the USDA navigated that fairly well by creating really what was a set of practices that were not that had no scientific claims to them so that you would not be able to say that you would your toenails would be longer or shorter because they were Gammick. But it was a practice and consumers could make their own choice about buying a product that was produced in such and such a way. And let's let the market. Determine it. That being said it's very very important for those people looking at organic foods to understand what what and where the scientific claims come from are they coming from the industry itself. Are they coming from independent research. And this is very very important I think this is maybe the next wave of activity in organic is trying to provide some formality and rigor

to the process and whether it is in fact better for you or in many in other cases it may not be because it may have higher because you might not be able to use bacteria side or something some product and maybe have higher bacterial loads or whatever but the point is that scientific and research is really really important and would serve only help organic to make its way in the marketplace. We have a caller on line one from Urbana Good morning to you Do you have a question. Yes. I have recently retired from farming and or for the last 8 years. I have 30 acres of certified organic acreage down in Douglas County and it was an interesting experience I learned a lot and it was also quite frustrating and the whole thing a bound in

irony. One of the things when I first got into it was that the promise of being able to sell organic fully beans for 18 to 22 dollars a bushel you know forever and at the time some of my friends at the University were saying well you know China has vast acreage there that has never been treated chemically and they're going to certify it and they have got you know low cost of labor. And you know your soybean market is going to disappear. And you know indeed by the time I have gone through the three year process the value of my organic soybeans was down to you know 10 to $13 per bushel which change the economics you know quite dramatically. The thing that I found ironic and frustrating was the organic movement which is what several generations old probably now.

Originally had a vision of some alternative agriculture to the industrial model which is where country was headed at the time. But at the end of the process in order to preserve the value of their branding which they had worked at for several generations you have to have controls so that people know what the brand means. But the result was a pile of regulations when I went through the certification process. You had a group of people who were essentially empty bureaucratic people who wanted to work in the soil spending huge amounts of time learning the minute of the regulations on what you could and couldn't do. So it ends up being a kind of a bureaucratic nightmare to maintain your certification and then the other frustration I had was. And I can't address the nutritional side of it but on the production side I found myself in a morally compromised situation because I didn't do

care about the soil and soil quality and a lot of the soil quality problems that we have here in central Illinois really came from that hundred years of farming which was organic and the only method of weed control was cultivation so that rather than a best practices approach the year that because the definition of her again IC you know focused on this distinction between synthesized chemicals and naturally occurring chemicals I found that I was required to to really beat up the soil in order to have any chance of raising a crop. And where in my conventional crops using minimum tillage approach in a judicious use of chemicals I could raise a crop and be profitable with two tillage passes on the organic side. You know I was getting up to eight or 10 tillage passes which hurts the organic

matter or organic content and so every time you till you oxidise organic matter and so on and so I found. Oftentimes your Gannicus sold us this kind of idealized system where you can do no harm. If you follow the organic approach and you only do harm if you use then you synthesize chemicals. And so I found the kind of the straight jacket there made me do things that I knew were bad for the soil but I had to do it because it was the only way to maintain my organic certification. I have a lot of other things I could talk about too but that's probably enough for now. Caller if you want to hang on the line just a bit I'd like for you to stay in the conversation simply because you've done this in the past we do have a caller from Wisconsin on wine too as well Ana do want to get them in and see if we can and have them ask the question no we cannot. Can we put both of them online at the same time. Well I'm getting a no so

we'll have to let you go and we'll comment on what you've had to say here in just a bit but from Wisconsin they've been online for quite some time and I and since are calling in from Wisconsin I want to make sure that I don't run their long distance bill up too much. Good morning to you and do you have a question where are you calling from by the way in Wisconsin. I'm coming I'm calling from Milwaukee area. All right. And are you listening on the web or on am I listening on the web OK. Thank you. I I actually have a question regarding food products and the USGA feel. I'm wondering if products such as brides are going to be able to continue to use the USDA organic seal under Harvey versus sentiment. And I can take my comments off the air too. Thank you very much. And I believe that that would be a question Bill for you to answer. But I'd rather talk about the story being a growth story being the original intent of organic but the Harvey we haven't talked much about the Harvey case but there is a lawsuit that has been working its way through the courts

that said that the rule itself contains allowance for synthetic compounds in food and processed foods. That was not in the original law. And the court ruled in fact in favor of the plaintiffs and ordered the USDA to modify the regulation. What that means is that there are there were a number of synthetic materials that had been reviewed very carefully through a public process through the National Organic Standards Board that were put on a national list of allowed synthetic materials for use in food processing things like baking powder vitamin C citric acid that some of the things we actually talked about earlier. Lecithin and those materials included even yeast and pectin as a thickening agent that that list is public it's listed on the web but the refused and the chemical reviews for them are quite detailed

and at least for the moment we're heading towards an implement a change in labeling in which products that currently are labeled with the organic seal with the USDA organic seal as or as USDA organic meaning 95 percent or more plus use of some of these allowed materials. They would have to drop back to a 70 percent maid with 70 percent organic and we could not use the USDA seal. There are there are products on the marketplace just as there are local producers of produce that are shipped long distances that could still make that claim. I mean for example in the Chicago area there is a bread product that you can find called McComas organic breads that would still be able to bear the organic seal because they don't use any of these leavening agents. But there are some national brands of organic breads that would have to either

reformulate or change the law or drop back to a made with organic wheat formula. So this. Process of developing the regulation is ongoing and fairly intense in the sense that it. All we're doing is going through a process of vetting exactly what everybody means in a very public way. I don't think we're going to see a totally stable definition with that in terms of details for some time. This change that I've just described probably will will take another two years to be implemented through the courts and through and through another Federal Register process. Listeners this morning we're talking about I suppose for all intensive purposes the economics of organic production and how that crop is marketed here in the U.S. and other places around the world if you'd like to phone in with your question. The toll free number is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 That's eight hundred two to

two wy allow or locally 2 1 7 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Yeah. I want to get back to that. General Douglas County raised a number of really really important issues for those who produce organic products in general but also specifically for Illinois Indiana producers interested in organic grains and that's that one of the things that was not very clear made clear to a lot of the producers who wanted to produce specialty crops or in this case organic was that these markets are very very dynamic and that premiums are rarely in any business stay high forever because buyers just don't like paying high prices. They like paying lower prices for their products. With that they purchase rather than higher and also higher premiums attract entrants whether they be Chinese producers or in Illinois we

have. A number of complimentary relationships in Argentina in terms of producing organic products to compliment the Illinois supply. So there are lots of entrants that come in and so that what happens over time is that producers always have to when you're in a differentiated market as opposed to a commodity market is always be aware that it's going to be very fluid and that things are going to change. And that means in the case of organic soybeans becoming more efficient because there's going to be more supply in the market. And it did outstrip demand and. And premiums have fallen. So that's something that's very very different than when when we produce commodity products where we pretty much know what's going to happen in terms of the marketing of the crop and the demand that's that's that's out there. Marketing in a differentiated product or a specialty product like

organic is is is a challenge and it's not going to be the same from from year to year. The this is Bill I agree with you to an extent but the fact is that the soybean premium has stayed up there due to a great extent. The current feedstock price for soybeans for Danica is in the $14 and 75 cent range in the Minneapolis market. And for tofu it's 20 to $22 for Toto food type. And if you are growing not to be injured get 35 to 40 dollars. My feeling about the gentleman I don't want the who is growing the 30 acres in Douglas County is that he is the key issue is setting setting things up with a pot with a buyer in advance. China soybeans have not been that successful in entering the U.S. There's been talk of it but the fact is that between shipping and other issues even the Brazilian soybeans have not dominated the market here. There's a huge new demand for organic soy because

of the great huge growth in organic dairy and inorganic meat products and their Yannick hog products. So the demand has actually continued fairly strong and there was actually a soybean shortage this past year in organic. Because of the wheat crop production and my feeling is that a lot of this has to do with growing technique that cultivation discussion is about learning the timing of planting and learning about Enter cropping and new new and interesting methods to grow beans even using organic methods that don't don't use tillage. There is some good research going on at universities and then there's institutes like the Michael Field's Institute. MICHAEL FIELD Agricultural Research Institute that are working with the University of Wisconsin. So there's there's I think that there's two things there. The production method and learning those tools and then finding your market connections whether it's value added or

contracting because people are still making good money as organic farmers. BILL Which do you does your consulting firm work with mostly the producer supplier and or the end user side and if it's the end user what kind of clientele list do you have. We work with. We work with farmer groups. We work with companies like Driscoll strawberry. I've done work helping them develop their aganda berries. We've done work with the foreign agricultural service on their international standards. We work with food companies who are looking to develop products. We work. And I'll disclose that I have done some work with the Michel Field Institute a million economists a bakery I mentioned because I've seen them working directly with farmers to contract to link with the farmer to the food to the consumer. I do some work as a volunteer with some food co-ops like their own natural foods co-op here to connect

local produce growers with local restaurants. We have more callers on the line in line one is joining us now to ask a question Good morning to you. What is your question please. I'm the person from Douglas County. Oh sure called in earlier. You went on to the Wisconsin and. Yes. And you know I'm interested in their perspective on some of the issues in terms of. Sticking with a narrow definition of organic rather than best practices. Because I think for a lot of consumers there simply is a lot of confusion about what those distinctions might be. And you know the one thing I have to say because one of your experts was referring to the research that's being done on alternative methods to raising organic soybeans and so on without relying on the Tillotson. You know one thing that isn't an unequivocal benefit from the organic movement is that it has spurred a lot of research. Now that there is a branded market for again IC and I think

even here at the University of Illinois. Twenty years ago there likely was almost no interest in organic production methods and I'm aware that now there is. And so I think everyone benefits from broadening the field of research. But from the perspective of someone in central Illinois Central Indiana and. In this area if they're not interested in and crop to table produce and some people are. But you know let's be honest about that. To do that in this area you're looking at an economic lifestyle that the majority of their customers would not be willing to live on. You know I buy organic produce if you're bad a market then and you know I know a bit about the sacrifices these people make financially in order for me to have a lovely organic salad. But for your central many farmers in corn and soybean and wheat belt you can't

go and in advance of the process lock up a market for your soybeans. That's going to be predictable. I was a part of a movement to start an organic marketing co-op here and the buyers the dairy farmers who were buying my organic corn are under capitalized rather than being able to deliver my crop and get a check. The same day or within several days which you can with the commodity crops I waited months and sometimes months and months you know six months to collect it. So people need to be aware that it's true. These are for Yanick milk drives the need for again and corn. But. You know it's a tough tough way to go. And in the end I would like to have milk that is free of hormones I would like to have be.

That's hormone free. But of course that can be done without requiring that everything in the food chain down the line. So requiring instead of getting grain be fed that beef. I don't know if there's any studies that would show that organic corn produces a better quality of beef than non-organic corn. The other parameters are the same biopics no heart growth hormone is your question that you want clarification between what US DA's rules and regulations say organic is today and what for instance the organic crop Improvement Association had said prior to that on certification. Is that right. Well I mean because none was more stringent than the other. I mean I think one of the the questions that the caller raises is is is important about the certification of one

set of practices while it should be known that the USDA certifies all sorts brand claims. Natural hormone free whatever. A company comes along and wants to make a claim. They sit there and make sure that that the claim is in fact true and and there is a whole third party certification etc. etc.. So organic is just one of many. Sorts of programs that the USDA is now involved in as the market has moved from commodities to differentiated products. They had to come in and provide some some discipline and that's what they do. They are not saying that one is better than the other. That's left to the consumer and left to the research community. The fellow in Douglas County. Sorry I don't know your first name. Danny Danny

I think your question about this best practices vs. the the synthetics vs. natural it is a tough one it's been gone been in discourse at least in the sustainable agriculture and organic farming community for 20 years. I agree with you in principle that the of the finish line there should not be you know synthetics bad natural good. As a rule and in fact we attempted to capture that in in the law and allow for a process to apply for the use of synthetic compounds that were in line with the seven written principles in the law of organic management and there are a number of synthetics that have gone through that process and been added. The challenge is that it is a fairly long process. I think there is some data to show that natural using natural

fertilizers produces a different protein in some crops under some conditions there's the beginning of that data and that beginning data indicates that there is actually can be a cellular difference and that's an exciting part of the puzzle to me. So what organic was trying to do is really documenting the entire process. But by the way I really do agree with you that it is a volatile situation and when you know the ideal is really to as a farmer be participating in the value added piece of the puzzle in some way or participating with it with with more local farmers in a contract basis. And I've seen some really good models for that. I think Organic Valley the large farmer co-op of organic dairy farmers is starting to try to work directly with grain producers to to do to solve the kind of problem you were describing about financing and the payment the payments for grains.

And I note one of the projects we're working on now is the development of a green organic bank to help finance that process. We have just about seven minutes left maybe a little less than that and two phone calls to get in we have a caller on line one from here on line two from here in Urbana and one from Bloomington in Urbana What's your question please. Yeah. I was just thinking the about that that one caller from Douglas County and I was thinking you know the organic market is not certainly not as large as the overall commercial market but but it still is pretty much a mass market and mass markets are just tend to be uniform by nature. And so it seems to me that bureaucracies are just you know part of our dues are just part of that. And that if a person just wants to you know just do some farming and do it do just do it the way however they want to or that whatever they think is best that that's not.

You're not going to be able to sell to a mass market even if it is the organic mass market. And if you wanted to develop your own you know best practices are optimal practices or your own style. I mean you could maybe make up flyers and you know you hand them out here friends and neighbors describing you know your practices and why they're better or whatever but that it's just a different kind of a market and the marketing I guess. The style of farming and the style of the marketing seemed simpler but they would have to you know match each other. Peter if you could address that very quickly and I know you have a program called market maker that can be found on the Web and we've got very little time. Yeah. I think the caller is entirely right that when we think about the organic brand and how it competes with other brands and how producers establish brands that's really just a form of differentiation the producers.

It's a a difficult challenging marketing. Problem to establish yourself as a brand. But it has been done it's done in Europe quite extensively with origin based brands that have practices tied to them and farmers own and control them and then very quickly you have a way actually on the website with Yannick maker. One of the ways in and we've talked in this conversation a lot about the importance of marketing and beginning with your customer whether that be a livestock feed or whether that be a retailer manufacturer and understanding their needs so we've developed a Web based software called Market Maker dot com. And on the site we really it's based on Illinois. It allows suppliers producers to look and understand markets locate customers and begin to make connections and contacts with them so that's it's a web based map based

piece of software that's been quite successful and we'll put that up as a disclaimer for me you and I work together and part of my job is to know about things like market maker and make sure that other people know where that happens to be OK we do have a line for color on the toll free calling from Bloomington Indiana Good morning and your question the final one for the morning. Good morning. I encourage you to pick up on the program again but next time do a program on Beyond Organic because there is a movement of people who have lost their enthusiasm for the organic standards moving way beyond that. And this is a type of topic that is really right for presentation and discussion. Are either one of your guests from milieu or with the phenomenon I'm referring to. I'm not familiar with him and I. I appreciate and agree with that. I kind of referenced the earlier when I said that there are other claims that go beyond organic. I think that what I think in the marketplace is that you can you see the opportunity to have a claim on a product that says it was produced using organic methods.

That it's food dollar Miles we're local. So there's a little a local verification and there's direct marketing and there is a marketing to show that the can the farmer was was treated right. And there aren't. So I'm going to I'm sorry. Well going back to the Douglas County farmer and he touched on this quite wonderfully and that is the aspect of soil stewardship because so much of the organic movement is not particularly knowledgeable of soil science and this is a the next hierarchy of extraordinary growing of fruits vegetables and grains. And that actually is what my interest is. And beyond Go Danica there's a group of people who are not satisfied with the do and don't primarily the bones of the organic

certification and standards but they are interested in going moving way beyond that. Does this make sense to you. Sure what you're really saying is go back to the nutritional quality of the growing method that produces higher higher nutrition color I am interested in talking to you may be a little off there if you can call back or write me an email here. My address is t Gleason at UIUC dot edu I'm always interested in these kinds of things and maybe setting up something for the future and the whole number you can find on the website directly to the station is 2 1 7 3 3 3 0 8 5 0. Be done here in about two minutes three minutes actually and we would like to thank our guests. Bill wall who's the founder and president of Wolfe and Associates joining us from his Newcastle Virginia office thank you very much Bill Any final comments before I let you go for the day. Well I want to thank you for having me. I do think that the what we're seeing is just the beginning of a shift and organic is really just part of a

larger shift.