Focus 580; Lincoln at Cooper Union: the Speech That Made Abraham Lincoln President

We remember Abraham Lincoln as being one of the great presidential speech makers yet very little has been written about the speech that took him from a local Illinois politician to a viable national candidate. This was a speech that he delivered in the winter of 1860 in New York. It was delivered before the Republican establishment there and many who gathered to watch him expected him to fail. Instead the speech was a triumph and the public relations campaign that followed helped secure for Abraham Lincoln the Republican presidential nomination. This morning we'll be talking about the speech with Harold Holzer. He has authored coauthored and edited twenty two books on Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War and his newest is all about this speech it's entitled Lincoln at Cooper Union the subtitle is The speech that made Abraham Lincoln President. It's published by Simon and Schuster and in the book Harold Holzer it does indeed make the argument that this speech has been overlooked and its significance in Lincoln's political career is. Great

to say the least. As we talked this morning with Harold Holzer certainly questions comments are welcome if you'd like join the conversation. You can call the only thing we ask of people who call in is that their brief so that we can get in as many people as possible and keep moving but anyone who is listening is certainly welcome to participate. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have a toll free line. And that's good. Anywhere that you can hear us around Illinois Indiana anywhere the signal travel even if you should happen to be listening on the internet as long as you're in the United States you can use that number that's 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 3 3 3 wy L.L. and toll free 800 to 2 to 1. Mr Holder. Hello. Hi. Thanks very much for talking with us. My pleasure thank you for having me. We appreciate it. In the introduction to the book that you note the fact is that while people historians those who know about the life

of and career of Abraham Lincoln have considered this speech the Cooper Union speech to be important at the same time. You write that it has been virtually ignored by generations of historians most of whom have relegated to the status of exalted footnote. And then you go on to to make the argument that in fact that is probably one of the most famous of Lincoln speeches that almost no one today ever reads. And also that it was very important to add to Lincoln's career. Why do you think that this particular speech has been so overlooked. I think there are two two basic reasons one is simple and one of the little more complicated. The simple reason is that it's so dauntingly long it's seven thousand seven hundred fifty eight words. Ten times as long as the second inaugural address. Thirty five times as long as the Gettysburg Address. To make it even more challenging it's really three speeches and one two three

different kinds of approaches each of which is abruptly stopped and then a new kind of approach begun. So it's long it's complex it's hard to hold a floor to understand what beguiled an audience reading a speech like this than it is to understand why a masterpiece like the Gettysburg Address affected people. And the second reason is that it's really unlike anything Lincoln ever did all his speeches before this World War stump fun to hear are Tory. This was more scholarly and restrained and legal this tick. And really most of the speeches after this had quite a different style more poetic. Again more Ella Jr. beginning with his farewell to Springfield about a year later. So it stand there in the middle of singular and complicated. And it's been a challenge. Certainly we know from the time and you know the fact that at this time a lot of people many Americans were politically engaged and political speech

was a something like this would have been a real event that people would have wanted to go to. Wanted to hear both. I think for its significance just as an event and also for the for the for the ideas would have would a speech like this by today's standards this would be long and difficult and when Sam Waterston and redid it not very long ago one of the quotes I know from him was something like I'm interested to see if people will sit still for it. Yeah. At the time though would it have been unusual. Not at all. People just love political oratory it was combined. That the traveling 10:00 show the state fair day in church without summarizing. People flock to political speeches indoors and outdoors and thrived on it as you as you pointed out 80 percent voter turnout. And if you 60 Holby of white males only but it's still a huge turnout and to show you

what the insurance question was after Lincoln finished his speech the audience did not rush out to the parking lot or wherever the 19 1860 equivalent of the parking lot. You know you go to the theater today and people can't wait to be there friends and strangers are out to be the first out. After the Cooper Union address after an hour and 40 minutes or so not to mention one or two speeches that preceded it. The election of the chairman of the evening that preceded it then Lincoln's 90 minutes and then the audience would go home they called for more speeches five more speeches not as long as Lincoln's but five commentaries. People just had an insatiable appetite for political discourse. You know I was having a discussion about this with my wife as a matter fact last night as I was reading the book and we were talking about the level of political engagement of people at the time. And I said I thought well perhaps part of the reason that people might have been

excited by an event like this was it was considered a kind of entertainment. Oh absolutely. And she is she sort of said well she wasn't wasn't comfortable with that word I think she understood as as you did that the level of political engagement that people had a nice and I was wanting to make the argument that it could in fact be I would like to rehabilitate the word entertainment I say yes you could certainly be engaged with the ideas and I'm sure that people were but at that same time my feeling was that it was a kind of entertainment. You know we don't we. It certainly was a combination first. I think you're right. And so is your wife that people were more informed in the absence of radio and C-SPAN than CNN and all of the access to two soundbites I'm obviously not talking about a show like this where you get to talk in detail what people just expect information to be delivered to them quickly and effortlessly move on to the next thing. People read newspapers they read transcripts of

speeches if they couldn't get to the moon selves they they read pamphlets. And when the speakers came to town people who about whom they only read in the press or in pamphlets they wanted to take the measure of them in person to see how they found it and how they looked and how they gestured with Lincoln that was always amusing because he was so awkward when he when he spoke. So it was definitely a combination in New York a little difficult to get a crowd because there was so much going on in New York. Like today theater events opera other lectures I looked around carefully at all the entertainment I had going for the day and Lincoln had a lot of competition that day a minstrel show a menagerie an equestrian show a lecture on digestive organs people wouldn't want to miss that. So there was New York was a hot town daven and Lincoln didn't quite fill the hall Sam Waterston didn't get it.

Yeah well and it also cost money to attend this event it was only 25 cents but my guess would be at that time 25 cents would not be an insignificant amount. The money straight inflation index says it's about $5. But you know it's probably more for people who didn't make that much money. Get on with all of that investment. Some people might have figured that they could hear a political speaker next time around outdoors. But there was always that there were always those opportunities as well. Let me just very quickly bring traduce our guest Harold Holzer He's the author of the newly published book Lincoln at Cooper Union the speech that made Abraham Lincoln President by Simon and Schuster that's the publisher and indeed it is a story of this particular speech that he gave. This was in February of 1860 in New York. That Harold Holzer argues was very important to helping him to secure the Republican nomination for a presidency that year. Questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We should put this in

context I guess I maybe I'll ask you to talk a little bit about where Lincoln was in his political career at this time. Well he had almost lost the Senate race against Stephen A Douglas in 1858 but in 1859 had been called upon to give speeches and be happy of seven gubernatorial candidates running nationally in other states. I'd like to remind people that elections did take place every two years and in those days there was an election every year there. There was an important election almost every month somewhere in the country. It was rather decentralized according to dates anyway. So one can just go out of a big speaking tour and all the candidates he supported and spoke for won so it was obvious that really emerging as a national figure and in fact the very day that he came home from celebrating the big Republican party triumphs around the country in October 1859 he

actually received a telegram inviting him to speak in New York in Brooklyn. To be precise according to the first invitation so it was a momentous day and even on the day that he was celebrating a triumph he looked forward to another big opportunity. Who was it that issued the invitation to him to come to New York. A group called the young men central Republican union they were a club that had organized for the 1856 presidential election and they were intent on finding alternatives to the favorite son in New York who was William H Seward the senator from. New York disliked by many New York City people because he was an upstate are and these were guys who were looking for an alternative so they had by the series of Westerners to come east and lecture in New York and Lincoln was the one who was the last of

them and made the biggest impression. Yeah being in Illinois and I like the idea that Illinois the West always. But midway through the way yes that at that time it was the thought of linking people from this part of the country as Westerners. Absolutely. Don't we still in New York you know. The invitation to Lincoln in addition to looting in an honorarium was a was wide open as to subject matter. They said we would like you to come and give a speech on the subject of your choice. How did he go about deciding what it was that he wanted to talk. I don't think he had any doubt. Nor did his host that the subject he would choose would be politics he was at the ball at that time sort of creating a third career for himself as a lecturer he liked the idea of giving lectures that were not speeches he had got. Very bad reaction to his first major effort in this line of electronic discoveries and inventions which was actually

really dreary and people were paying for that and not enjoying it. So he thought a political lecture would be in order and I would doubt he'd speak about slavery in the current state. The division between the north and the south. The fact that he did it in a lecture format as it had been historically to lift the collector to prove that that the federal government have the right to restrict the spread of slavery is what made it particularly appealing. He apparently set out very carefully to prepare and research the lecture which he saw as as indeed more than speech. And that obviously suggest how important he felt this could be to his political future. Was he indeed thinking about it that way about the president. Well if not the presidency I guess there was there was some thought that he if Seward was indeed the Republican nominee that he might be the vice president.

Yeah I'm not willing to concede that Lincoln wasn't thinking about the top spot. You know the vice presidency would have been interesting but it really was fairly boring even though one of them now the vice president had no responsibilities except to preside over the Senate when it was in session. You know they didn't share the Oval Office area with the president they didn't go to lunch once a week as we've heard recently that President Bush 41 used to do with President Reagan. They weren't intimately involved with the fairs or cabinet meetings the way Vice President Gore was with President Clinton. So it was you know it was a job that was offered for regional balance and not much else. I think we can have as I said in the top prize from the very beginning he took the scalp. If he was going to be a show that it was going to be for vice president it wasn't going to be for disrupting the party's plans to have Seward emerge as a sort of a seamless and universally accepted

nominee. So how did he go about crafting this lecture. Well he was inspired by something he read. He William H Seward was clearly one rival but he also was looking to his longtime Democratic follow Stephen A Douglas who had defeated him for the Senate. And in 58 Douglass published an article in Harper's magazine called The dividing line in which he made the argument in this very liberal newspaper a very liberal magazine by the way in which he made the point that that the federal government had no authority to control the spread of slavery that that was perpetually vested in the majority rule of the people who lived in those new territories. Look you read the article and Woods was gripped by one phrase in it. Douglas said to justify that the Constitution guaranteed this state authority

that our fathers meaning the fathers of our country understood this question. Meaning slavery just as well or better than we do now. Something about that phrase interested and compelled Lincoln. Who were the fathers he wondered. Well why not the framers of the Constitution. That's the government under which we live. What do they really think about federal control as to slavery. Well the answer is not just in the constitution which was a compromise document that those fathers were compelled to approve in order to to move forward and create a government. What about their subsequent votes. If they had any as congressmen the senators. So we set about investigating what all of the thirty nine framers had done and how they've expressed themselves on subsequent slavery issues like whether or allow slavery in the Northwest Territory whether to out allow slavery in the

Louisiana Purchase whether to allow slavery and in other territories of the United States how they voted on the Missouri Compromise in 18 19 and 20 if they live that long with. Medical profession he founded 21 of the 39 have voted clearly to authorize the federal government to control the spread of slavery. So we decided to answer Douglas and Seward at once. One of the little bits of the story that I think is interesting just because it says something to you about what life at the time would have been like is your account of just how difficult a journey it would have been to get from Springfield where Lincoln was living to New York City. It was already using that on rail but well yeah actually it's not that easy now. It was it was all by rail involve many trains involved sometimes changing trains in the middle of the night and its sounds like it would have been just a completely

exhausting process just to make the trip three days AND three nights. No sleepers you know upright chairs no dining cars. You had to race out and grab your meals when the train was picking up water. It was and Lincoln was saddled with a relatively young woman with a child a two year old boy and anyone who's traveled with a two year old even on a short flight knows that that is not the easiest thing in the world. Even if you're not going to be giving the speech of your life in the next few days. So you arrived a tired man in New York. When the people that brought him got a look at him What were they what were their first impressions. If they had made a terrible mistake that this fellow who was so awkward and so huge and wrinkled it is looked this face so disheveled and wrinkled and pockmarked and hair standing out all over the place that this kind of

presentation might work on the stump in Illinois but it was going to be an unmitigated disaster in New York. But in fact the people who heard him at Cooper Union in the first few minutes were convinced of the same thing. He spoke before a group that was called the Pickens flower of New York culture and they were as most audiences were fixated on the awkward gestures the long legs until they began to be swept up into the into the argument. I'm always interested in people's reactions and published reactions by contemporaries to Lincoln speeches. They all seem to say that 10 minutes after 10 minutes they were transfixed. It's always 10 minutes before the gong that went off of you. Let's stop looking at the Jesters and start listening. Well does that I wonder though how much that indeed had to do simply with the text or was it also his ability to put it across and maybe it

just took him a little bit of warming up to be as effective a presenter as he was capable of. Well they say those who reported it that that his voice was harsh. A little bit shrill when Tilly warmed up his vocal chords. People have interpreted that and misinterpreted that I think in modern times that they had a high voice. But I mean a high voice like Pavarotti versus a baritone. Maybe people who were in the political business in those days had to have a speaking instrument that allowed them to be heard without the kind of electronic amplification that we take for granted today. And if you think about it people like Reagan Clinton and both Presidents Bush could never have been politicians in the 19th century however attractive or original their ideas they would have been relegated to the background because they couldn't

project the way you need to project. I can't even think of who the last president to want to have a kind of speaking voice that would have worked in the 19th century maybe Nixon because he had a healthy baritone. So it's a different world but still people would focus on the the the obvious until they started listening to the words. And yes to your point it was a speech that was intentionally crafted so that you start with very ponderous legal stick stuff just to impress the heck out of these people that he was capable of doing. I think the point of the opening. We are just one of our midpoint here and we have a caller we'll take in just a moment we'll continue talking with their Harold Holzer one thing I just liked a bit of information I want to make sure that people know that the Storm Prediction Center this morning earlier this morning issued a severe thunderstorm watch for parts of northern and east central Illinois that will be in effect until 1:00 o'clock this afternoon.

Hail to two inches in diameter thunderstorm wind gusts 80 miles an hour dangerous lightning are possible in these areas and in our AM 580 severe weather coverage area this year a thunderstorm watch includes champagne Ford vermilion Douglas Edgar Coles and Iroquois counties. In addition others that are in our area but people may be listening this morning in Moultrie Pyatt do wit McLean and Logan. So again that's a severe thunderstorm watch Remember that means conditions are favorable for severe thunderstorms and close to the watch area. Keep aware of the weather. Stay tuned here to AM 580. And if we have any updates we'll bring them to you again that's if there's a severe thunderstorm watch that will be in effect until 1:00 o'clock this afternoon our next comprehensive report on the weather will be as part of the afternoon magazine this afternoon. Twelve thirty five our guest Harold Holzer has authored coauthored and edited twenty two books on Abraham Lincoln and the civil war. His most recent is about this speech that we have talked about here a speech that Lincoln

delivered at Cooper Union in New York City and February of 1860. And the book is titled Lincoln at Cooper Union the speech that made Abraham Lincoln President. It's published by Simon and Schuster. We have a caller here to bring into the conversation someone calling from East of Danville not very far from here. Lie number four our toll free line. Hello. Hello. Thank you. Yes. This is very very interesting and makes me want to search a lot about Abraham Lincoln. Anyhow this story was given to me by my father and he's been the story for a long long time. Some of the other family knew about this too. Abraham Lincoln was on the camp campaign trail and we think it was as through Indiana more likely at state law in Indiana he stopped

there for his speech or whatever. But anyway it had to be some kind of a celebration because they had requested the singing group to land at the at his prayer. Cetacean But anyhow he showed my grandfather and three of his brothers to do this thing and we have been so excited about they have but you now have some of my grandfather's brothers who are lawyers. I don't know where but we all originated here in Indiana. We we we thought possibly it was it on a train and from what you said what i caught long ago that was probably the case for that but didn't have.

I have never looked in and to the historical society about this and I'm sure people will think that I'll never know what this is about but I can actually tell you exactly when and where this happened. Oh you can. I kind of like it like a really good guess. It was February 11th 1861. I haven't aged 60. That sounds about right. This one is elected president and he leaves Springfield in the early morning to go to Washington to be inaugurated and so he's got to take a mother one of those long journeys East. Oh my look according to the records right. Shortly after noon the train arrived at state line. Oh it was meant to have been recorded in a book. Well it's recorded. Many books including his collected works including in and I give thanks remained an absolutely I wouldn't would I back that up. Oh no no. The best thing that was kind of my training was the name of the tree when I was a presidential special you know it was the path of the train that was carrying the new

president to New York. Well at least on the first leg of the journey when he got to the state line there was a committee of legislators there to meet him I'm sure there was music it sounds reasonable to me. Only care to have that and welcome my family with all singers and especially that man and they were in a group of four who look at President Lincoln chose to do the same thing where you are and now you know the date and I'm absolutely sure it happened you know he made a little speech while he was there. You don't have a speech recorded I know it is recorded one that has been written and the collected works of Abraham Lincoln's own grave February 11th that's very brief he just says Thank effect I'm looking at it now. Thank you for your kind reception and for all the aid in the rendered our cause which I think just one gentlemen I will address you a greater length of Indianapolis so that was the end of that speech so that he was going to let me get him to have a courier the next day they were going to you. Look if you could go to your public library. Well I last night had already had a library

and I don't know if they'd have it under for anybody has the lassie at Indiana courier February 12th 61. I'll bet you that that newspaper has all the details of the celebration. Probably even to find the names of the singers and that would be a great thing for your family that were like Oh well I thank you so very pleasure it's always great. You're not the first person I've heard who's just said and sang or played music for like an interesting way. I have it's always fun to be able to pinpoint the day and I would love to know why I think a lot but you can find it in that newspaper. OK well they would love to write well thank you for the go. We are again as I said a little bit past the midpoint of this part of focus 580 and we'd be happy to have questions from people who are listening. 3 3 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5. You know it's amazing how many of these family stories are actually right on the money that people have the things handed down and they're just you know you just do a tiny bit of research and there it is.

Maybe it would be it would be a good idea to for me to ask you to talk a little bit more about the speech there for people who are interested of course in the. Book in the book Lincoln at Cooper Union the entire speech is is there so that people can read the whole speech. But there is a section where you talk a little bit about something and you referred to it earlier that one of the things about the speech that maybe makes it a little complicated is that it's you can think of it as being three speeches really. It has these three major sections and each one is entitled is intended to do something a little bit different. Maybe you could just talk a little bit more about the speech and about what it was that Lincoln was trying to accomplish and in each of these parts of this be sure I'll do it reasonably briefly I hope. The first section was this legal is to prove that I was speaking about a few minutes ago that the founders had in fact expected the federal government to control

slavery. Very long about 45 50 minutes of that counting recounting giving all the votes all of the names repeating the names and every once in a while going back to that Douglass line. And after all our fathers who framed the government under which we live understood that question just as well or better than we do now with a twinkle in his eye and evoking laughter from time to time. Then he says that now a few words to the south if they would listen as I suppose they would not. Provoking more laughter. And for the next 30 minutes or so Lincoln sternly lectures the absence out I mean hear it say in the first section he's been sort of arguing against Stephen Douglas who was not there and now we argues against the whole south which of course is not there and not likely to read this speech because the words that Republican had to slavery man given are not generally reprinted in the south. Lincoln. One of the

South that if disunion occurs over slavery it will be the fault of the south but no way they can twist the argument they can make it rational that it's the fault of anti-slavery people. That they would like to compete in the south for votes but that southerners don't let their names appear on ballots. And then he says but enough. And that's certainly a way to change the tone and he begins in final section which is to Republicans to his fellow Republicans. Much as we hate tolerating slavery where it exists he says let's accept it for now because the disruption of it would throw the country into utter turmoil but let's spam fast on the idea that slavery can spread because if we contain it if we refuse to allow it to spread. Then we can place it on the course of ultimate extinction as our fathers who framed the government want that. And don't let anyone ever say that slavery is somehow right because we know it's wrong. We know it's evil. Calling it right doesn't make it right. We will prevail.

And that's how he leads into the condemnation of what he calls sophistical contrivances lies double lies that suggest that there's good in slavery. And he urges the audience as he closes let us have faith that right makes might. Don't be afraid to do your duty. We will prevail. And the audience is obviously cheering wildly. Well we have someone else here who is listening who would like to join the conversation. Grace do that and the callers in Villa Grove. And that is line 1. Hello. Hello Mr. Hauser. I was privileged to see you the other day on the stand and had a question. Sure I couldn't get in to ask your book that you wrote with Mario Cuomo Rincon on democracy. I would like you to tell the audience a little bit about why you wrote the book and my question is as I read through it I noticed about 63 the guest work address Mr. Lincoln's thoughts using the word union and starts

using the word nation and I think that's probably what we want out of that war we became a nation if you could speak to that please. I think that that's absolutely true. As my friend James McPherson the great Civil War historian puts it before the Civil War people used to write the United States are going after the Civil War. It was the United States is we became. Provably divisible through the sacrifice of much blood and treasure obviously and nationhood was achieved in a blink and I think when he added to the the goal of preserving the Union and safeguarding majority rule added to that cleansing the sin of slavery from the body politic. That was there were three good reasons to forge to reported rededicate the nation as he

said at Gettysburg. Thank you for mentioning League of the democracy which is going to be coming out this fall in an all new edition at least the newly available edition it's been out of print for so long. Well I truly enjoyed the book. Also I read Robert Johansen the democracy on trial and I don't know if you're familiar with Jefferson Davis. His farewell speech in the Senate and right following that is the Cooper Union and I think immediately these two very moderate people at least moderate on the success and have that striking beaches in there and you know that's very true. Do you ask me to explain a little bit about how Lincoln on democracy came to be right. You the I was I was a. Working for Merrill Cuomo at the time I was one of his public affairs specialists in the government the state government of New York and he had a visit from representatives of the

Solidarity Union of Teachers from Poland just a state visit. And they asked him if now that the Iron Curtain was descending whether he could recommend to them books about democracy because they had not been privileged to know about democracy in post-war Poland or indeed during World War Two or Poland. And he recommended Lincoln he said Lincoln is my favorite Lincoln is the greatest writer about democracy and they said we know Abraham Lincoln well but we have no books they were all taken away by the Russians. So the governor said I will provide a book not knowing of course how he was going to do that except he called me and said This is what we have to do. We got seven wonderful Lincoln scholars together to write introductions. Two different sections we got a committee of about 50 historians to recommend speeches and letters and documents and put together a collection of all of Lincoln's great words on self government and freedom. And I'm happy to say that although it's out of print in English coming back but out of print for a couple of years it

did appear in. In polish in Japanese and in Hebrew and even although I can't quite figure out why even in Indonesian over the years. So it's been around and out there and I hope it's I hope it really did make a difference to the to the people in Poland. Well I know I was disappointed when I realized it seemed that only before it came that main place it was only about a week so it wasn't that long a wait. OK well thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for the call to let's continue we'll go to next to color in a battle line to hello. You know I heard Mario Cuomo on air talking about that book on the market. Well he was on C-SPAN to talk about his new book which is called Why Lincoln Matters now or anyway. Oh that's right you know it's right. I just wanted to ask you quickly. Oh man. That choosing to mention

that he was impressed about the way Lincoln dealt with the fact that he was not a member of an organized religion. He said that to be a member of a practice in an organized religion you have to accept rules and prohibitions created by man and he just couldn't accept that. And with that said I too think was a wonderful way to deal with it. And I was curious if you could tell me anything about his problems that may have if any. I may have come about because of his being a rather secular and I don't know if he mentioned some sort of divine inspiration during the cooper's Union speech but he did not he didn't eat it but you certainly ask an interesting you have a very interesting take on it.

Wherever I go even if I'm talking about something completely different people do bring up the religion issue it's that that's always a hot button issue and I'm certainly among the Christian community. There is this battle for Lincoln So that's been going on for since aging since his death about whether only King was a true Christian or not. There's really no strong evidence that he that he ever said much about the Trinity he was certainly came to very much believe in God and talk about God especially once he was elected president I think looking at what lay in front of him and all the challenges he faced. And he put it he said without the assistance of the Divine Being. I can't have succeed in without assistance I cannot fail. And then as the war progressed. I mean how does someone without going mad assume the burden of 600000 casualties without saying the will of God prevails. It's God not me. And I

think a little bit of his increasing religiosity was a defense mechanism against the awful burden but the awful guilt of all of those sacrifices all of those casualties. Your specific question was whether he ever got into trouble because of his religious views and I think early in his career he had to put out a pamphlet making clear that he was not a believer because the rumor had been circulated that he did not know that he was an atheist or an agnostic which he did not consider himself or at least thought it was politically imprudent to him to declare himself as that. This is a man who ran against a minister once for Congress so he. He was used to the mix of religion and politics. But he very nearly did get into trouble over it. Younger in the younger period in his career. Well I think it's interesting that now and I'm not sure that argument would have

made one because they have. I think you're right. OK. Thank you thanks go to another caller. This would be a line number three and I believe that's also Urbana. Hello. Oh Harold. Yes I am and I'm a member of the Lincoln forum and I just have a question and also I want to say something else. I've been a member of the Lincoln forum for three years now. Great. And and pardon me I said that's wonderful. Oh I do too. And I go to about six or seven since I was young the Civil War every year and this is by far my favorite. So I just want to plug it if if if anybody is interested in Dan something really wonderful about the civil war this is the thing to do. I'm sure it's too late to sign up for this year. Well we still have i should we should just stop to tell people what the Lincoln form is it's a group of people from around the country who gather every November. Eckstein 17 and 18 in Gettysburg simply seemed like a good place to

go and it feeds right into the annual celebration of the Gettysburg Address on the 19th. And we need him here speakers and have dinners and banquets and battlefield tourism. Great group of people from the cab of the Los Angeles Illinois Pennsylvania New York. We all get together in this year. Another great roster of speakers including Mario Cuomo who we just spoke about and of many others are not just with you just on the web it's w w w dot the Lincoln forum dot org OIG and about 25 reservations left so who knows. That's great. Well I have a question I'm going to have to ask ask the question and then hang out because I'm in the car and my wife wants their kid. OK your turn. I've been unfortunate enough to mess based on two occasions. Sam Waterston you you know trained in lights you might already talk about this but is this going to be on a he is a going to be another

opportunity that I'll have to see that. I'm afraid I'm going to have to hang up. OK well I'll pull you through the car OK well thanks very much for the go. I hope you can still hear. I've gotten a lot of calls about the Cooper Union. It's always hard to know when C-SPAN is going to rerun something but they are going to rerun it and we are talking about different kinds of ways to package it. Certainly anybody who wants a tape of Waterston reading it can just get in touch with C-SPAN and they sell their cassettes for something like 30 dollars. And I hope they continue to make it available especially in schools. OK. But if they did they did videotape it and it's been broadcast about five times. OK so I know that they are people who do have Internet access. C-SPAN does have a website. So maybe one thing that people can do would be to go to Web site and see if they can check it out there because I do believe the seating and schedule there is posted. So do they know them if they do voice streaming to it's probably yeah I think.

They do. I'm pretty sure that they do anyway. I'm and I'm and I'm sure that it's probably CSPAN dot org or something like that or people could just put C-SPAN into their browser and I'm sure that that they would find it. We have about 10 minutes left in this part of focus 580 Our guest is Harold Holzer He's written a lot about Abraham Lincoln and civil war. He's the author of a recently published book Lincoln at Cooper Union the speech that made Abraham Lincoln President published by Simon Schuster. I want to talk a promoter have you talk for a moment about the photograph because one of the things that Lincoln did the day of the speech was he stopped by the studio of Matthew Brady and had a picture taken a photograph made and it was it is reproduced on the cover of the book. And then after the speech after he gave the speech it was widely reprinted and distributed but also this photograph was distributed and you make the argument that that also was significant maybe not quite as I think that there is some comment attributed to

Lincoln that he had said something like that Cooper Union and Matthew Brady made him president. He may not have. Said that but apparently this photograph was pretty important. It was really important with respect to your part of the country which I love visiting the photographs that he had made there in the years previous were not terribly flattering they were you know a little too realistic that long dark neck and the hair standing up all over the place. That was the typical image. Plus there was a period in the 50s when photographs could not easily be reproduced anyway. This was just the perfect place to be photographed by the greatest photographer in the country an award winning photographer at a moment when the technology was developing so that pictures could be widely reproduced and Brady you know just we touch the picture he asked Lincoln to pull up his collar so that its neck wouldn't show so much. He brought in a pillar or at least a fake pillar to give Lincoln the dignity and the

statecraft image and he was smart enough to sort of pull back don't focus just on Lincoln's face which was a little bit scary and it unretouched version but to pull back and show the full body the full link and he is an imposing impressive looking man. And the big man and just the combination of intelligence and power and refinement that this picture projected with the press. Picked a company to be addressed. Let's continue here. I think we have somebody else to talk with the next caller would be in Charleston. Let's line for a while. Oh yes. Yes ran a documentary a special on Mrs. Grant within the last year or so and I was struck by one of the comments there that said that in the 19th century the big popular figure in America was Grant not Lincoln. I just wondered if you could comment on that.

That was well enough. I would say it's a you know it's a change in 64 when Grant was brought East 63 64 Grant was a coming man and he was so popular it was even possible that he could have challenged Lincoln for the Republican presidential nomination which he was too loyal to do. Between 64 and 65 Grant's army suffered a lot of bloodshed and I'm not sure he was all that popular right nor Lincoln. And then in 65 he wins the war I mean he gets six Lee surrender so he's enormously popular again. But then Lincoln dies and Lincoln is the most revered figure in. Historical figure he doesn't live to get the benefit of the reverence that's that's the sense on him but I think after Lincoln dies Grant is the most popular figure in America certainly in the north. And he after his presidency and his world tour becomes the most popular American in the world he's just known all over the world. So we had the good fortune to live into the into the rest of the century

and be that or at least for another 15 years and be the beneficiary of the affection of the North for the success of the war where Lincoln was just a great figure of memory at that point. Thank you. All right thank you for the call. And let's see we'll go again to Bloomington Indiana line number one you know I tuned in late I hope I'm not repeating something you already covered but about Lincoln's belief in God. Several quotations during the Civil War Lincoln called for a National Day of Prayer. Have you discussed that. We were discussing religion but not these proclamations. Matt Matt I guess it's just about four sentences long and it takes about 20 seconds. Here's what it here's what it says. We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of heaven. We have grown in numbers wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God intoxicated with unbroken success. We have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving Grace. Too proud to pray to the

God who made us. It behooves us then to humble ourselves before the offended the power to confess our national sins and pray to Him for clemency and forgiveness and Lincoln also during his during his second inaugural address talked about definitely that civil war was a judgment for slavery where he talked about if if every if every drop of blood drawn by the lash would be paid for by one drawn by the sword before the Civil War was over. One of the most eloquent and he said the judgments of God a good riddance of the literature and writers altogether. Yeah yeah. Well there again I said a little earlier that I think Lincoln leaned on God more as the casualties of the destruction of the war became almost out of the human scale and he had to reach back and assume that a higher power was guiding this enormous sacrifice in the name of freedom and unity. But you read a wonderful passage it's very seldom quoted from that

proclamation and it's seldom remembered as well that Lincoln is the father among many other things of the Thanksgiving holiday in the United States he declared it annually for so long that he was prevailed upon by of all people the author of Mary Had a little lab to make it permanent so he invented the permanent November holiday. But we should not forget as you sir have recalled that for Lincoln it was not a day to stuff yourself with food it was a day in fact the first Thanksgiving that he declared called for fasting and not feasting. I must jump in here because we're here at the end of the time. If you'd like to read more on the subject that we have mentioned the book is Lincoln at Cooper Union the speech that made Abraham Lincoln President by our guest Harold Holzer. Harold Holzer served as vice president for communications and marketing at the better Public Museum of Art. He's also co-chair of the U.S. Abraham Lincoln Bicentennial Commission and is founding vice chairman

of the Lincoln forum and he's written a number of books about Abraham Lincoln and the civil war. So you can seek them out as well. Mr. Holsworth thanks very much for talking with us. Thank you and thanks to all the callers for those great questions as well.