Focus 580; The Last Voyage of Columbus: Being the Epic Tale of the Great Captains Fourth Expedition, Including

In the first hour of the show today we will be talking about the life and career of Christopher Columbus. He is certainly best known for his first achievement his first voyage the one that happened in 14 92. The man himself though Christopher Columbus believed that his greatest voyage was his last his fourth and certainly in many ways it was the most challenging. In this hour of focus we'll be talking with Martin Ducard about his new book The Last a voyage of Columbus. It is published by Little Brown. He is a New York Times bestselling author of a number of nonfiction works and he has written also for publications including Esquire outside Sports Illustrated and she cue the book is out just recently. And if you're interested you can head out to the bookstore and look for it. And of course this morning in this part of the show as we talk questions from people who are listening are welcome. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have a toll free line and that one's good anywhere that you can hear us that is eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5 so here in Champaign Urbana 3 3

3 9 4 5 5 and toll free 800 2 2 2 1 9 4 5. Mr. Dugard Hello. Well thanks for talking with us. Oh yeah. We certainly appreciate it. As I mentioned I think it's fair to say that probably most people will well know Columbus for the first trip and perhaps also will know that he made several but he himself believe that this is the fourth and final voyage was his greatest Why did he think of everything that he did he why did he think that this was the most significant thing. Well if you break it four voyages down the for the first one is when he discovered the Americas the second is what he became. He brought colonists over to to begin the colonization of the third is when he discovered South America the fourth voyage was a very emotional voyage for him it was his voyage this voyage redemption this one last chance to prove that there was a westward passage to the Indies. And in the process of actually disproving that theory he sailed further and accomplished more than he had on any of his previous voyage and

I think also he just he had so many hardships of the voyage it was such a test. If it's not availability of that for that he was able to pull through the whole thing I think gave him immense satisfaction as he lay on his deathbed. One thing that I want to talk about here right at the beginning it too is to dismiss the notion that perhaps some people might still have them out at the time of Columbus that people believe that the world was flat. That's not true they knew the world was round but they didn't know how big it was and that's where perhaps the one uncertainty lay. It was not unreasonable this idea that Columbus had that you could get to the east Asia by sailing west. But the big question was just how far was it a lot of people disagreed he apparently thought it was not as far as some other people thought and that really was the big issue not not whether or not it could be done at all. Now sailors know I mean actually everything there is total people knew that the world

was round and it's a simple sailor could tell you that too when a ship sails over the horizon it goes hell down the hole disappears and then the sail disappear which wouldn't be true if the world was flat. So the sailors knew it was the thing as though the world was so vast and there was Columbus a huge miscalculation. The people didn't even find out for decades after Columbus. That's the reason that when Magellan sailed across the Pacific twenty years after Columbus the last voyage he ran out of provisions you know halfway across the US men were eating shoe leather they had no idea how vast the Pacific Ocean really was. Yeah and it's interesting because the ancient Greeks had had actually estimated the size of the earth and had come very close and. That knowledge apparently had been lost. And so that people in the time Columbus really had no idea what the what the true size of the earth was and it was not amazing. That just blows my mind when you think that the Greeks were so on top of things centuries before you have a one line in.

In the book and early in the book that I think this is interesting because it it sums up a lot in a few words and perhaps the rest of the book in a way is devoted to fleshing that statement out but I'm thinking of the very first line of the first chapter which goes like this Columbus his problems began ironically with his greatest success. What do you mean by that. Well he had nowhere to go but Downey you have to remember Columbus was was not well liked by the court here as well as in Spain. He was he was an outsider he was a necessary evil Spanish head of a minimal sailing tradition. And so they had to turn to the outsider this Italian to come in and help them fill the royal coffers which were depleted by by war. And when he found the Indies when he discovered what would later become the Americas he was revered and 49 he was received he was actually. Beg to come and sit next to Ferdinand and Isabella in the Royal Court which which is unheard of. But after that things just went went wrong you know. He was a terrible

administrator. He was a brilliant navigator but he was a terrible administrator and the next thing of course the the Spanish sovereigns wanted to do was to send people to the Americas to begin accumulating gold and wealth. And that's where he failed because the people that came with him didn't want to work. They didn't want to really invest themselves in this new land. They began grumbling they sent reports back that Columbus was you know was making their work too hard and he was a very unjust man. And he had the sowed the seeds of discontent were sown when the when he left did. The rulers of Spain actually think that he could do it. Ferdinand did not. Ferdinand was. He was a vile evil little man and he didn't like Columbus one bit. Isabella was more optimistic. She had been I wouldn't say literally seduced but kind of emotionally seduced by

Columbus and his his passion and his belief in his dreams. You have to remember you know we think of Columbus now as this kind of archaic kind of fusty 500 year old person but you know what he lived what he lived he was this think of the the the most intense person you know with with great visions and great hopes and great dreams whose personal life is a train wreck. And that's Columbus. So what he wanted but when he spoke with Isabella. She invested himself herself in his dreams and even though she had doubts that he could succeed she had high hopes she thought that there was something to what he was saying. So when he left at 14 92 Ferdinand thought there was nothing to it. Isabella was really hoping there was something out there. The ironic thing is when Columbus comes back and he has found a new world it's Ferdinand who sees right away in a very Machiavellian fashion that this is the place to be exploited this is a place to to increase the wealth of Spain. And he is the one who avidly began pushing the idea of

reaping all the wealth of this new land. And I guess that also immediately presents a problem for them for the king and the Queen because of the extravagant sorts of promises that they made to Columbus about his reward should he succeed. They promised that essentially he would be the ruler of whatever he discovered that he would receive a very significant portion of the profits. From the voyage and anything that he found in anything he discovered and it seemed that immediately as soon as he got back that Ferdinand at least began to reconsider the deal and they tried to find ways to nudge Columbus out. Well exactly and they remember it it all goes back to him being two things an outsider and a commoner. And when Ferdinand found this wealth the contract they had signed which was it was called the capitulations of Santa Fe and it was the sign of the plains of Santa Fe just after the fall of Granada in 49 to basically it gave Columbus half of the new world wealth. He was he was their business partner. He was almost a

sovereign nation into himself and I think when Ferdinand signed that deal he thought you know what's really out there it's just about devotion but what he realised there was a lot of wealth. He slowly began chipping away at Columbus's power you know even though he was the king of Spain had a very involved legal system so Ferdinand couldn't just decree that he had to take away from Columbus. He had to circle navigate and circumvent the system find ways to literally steal it back from Columbus. And he did. Well that's and I think that that then the this interpretation of the exact letter of the agreement or perhaps it was some finessing on the side. Out of the royals there probably also added the pressure on Columbus or two for him to continue to sail to explore to see what he could find because they essentially said to him OK you can have the profits from everything that you had discovered prior to a particular date and then anything after that. Anything you personally discover.

You can have the share of the profits but if it should happen to be something else even if it's in the territory that's claimed by Spain you're not going to get any of that so it made it very important for Columbus himself personally to continue to be out there as much as he could because in order for him to profit he would personally have to have made the discovery himself. Right. Right. You know it's interesting because Columbus was an intensely loyal individual. And even though he had it it takes him years to convince the Spanish sovereigns to let him take these void just you know to give him the ships and the men to take this one big gamble across the Atlantic. He he he really he was really very very beholden to them. But once he realized what Ferdinand was doing once he realized that Ferdinand was trying to take everything back from him he he ls became a free lance sailor if you will. Basically he realized he was in it for himself. He couldn't really trust them and he had to be very very careful. And so like you say he began pushing further and further into the unknown to find this much

new land as he could before somebody else did. You know and I suppose that also what happened was that over a very short period of time more ships headed out the Portuguese made their way to India by sailing the other way sailing around the bottom of Africa showing that demonstrating that that could be done and it got to the point where perhaps what Columbus had done in 49 he too just wasn't that special anymore. And so perhaps for both reasons of his his image his self image perhaps and also for the possibility of making money that he was driven to keep going and and also to go further and to try to to because indeed also he did believe that he could find this way somehow by going west. Around this land that he had bumped into to eventually get to India. Yeah and you have to remember too that it's really interesting the way it shakes out that Portugal control the trade routes going to the to the east they controlled Africa they control the

route to India Italy and France control the Mediterranean. If France and Britain control the North Atlantic. So Spain could only fill West. That was the only way they could go to find a find. Well in Spain really needed Well they had just fought years worth of unification to make it a single country they had just fought these wars against the moralistic to kick them out of Spain and they hired all these these mercenaries from from other nations to come in and fight their wars for them. They really had no money. And ironically though when Columbus discovered the new world 49 to the sailors on his ship speak it's like six degrees of separation the sailors who came with him. They say they saw the way they learned how to get there and they were the ones in subsequent years that asked for and received permission from the sovereigns to leave their own voyages of discovery to the New World because Columbus had shown them the way the one of the things that he was trying to do in addition to enlarging his personal bank account with the fourth voyage was continuing to.

He was he had this idea that he could find this passage to East Asia and eventually gave up on that although. Continued to try to accumulate what gold he could on this fourth voyage moved from the Caribbean across to Central America to what is today would be the coast of Honduras and then down as far as Panama. Although I guess he continued Did he continue to believe that what this was was the coast of China. It did it and you know he said that you know it in his journals but if you look at it I think there's there comes a point and it's a really it's a really tragic moment in Columbus of career and it's the point where he realizes that there is no passage to the Orient and it's where he turns back because he's literally he's filling all the blanks on the map. And ironically he's the spot where he turns around he comes to this this low point is now the mouth of the Panama Canal on the Caribbean side. So him and he was close enough to the past that he just didn't know how to

get across. But he has this moment of depression this real low period where he just realizes that you know his life's quest is over it's done. And I think in his heart of hearts he knew that it was in China. There were no palaces there were no great cities. But he had to keep putting up that front because even when he went back to Spain he didn't want to sail back home and be seen as a failure and mocked he'd been mocked and reviled for 20 years. I think when he came back to Spain he had looked at the front that yes I found the coast of China. I just didn't find the great cities that I'd hoped to find. And he also one of the things he was struggling with was was poor health was the strain of all of these years. He was not a young man he didn't live all that much longer after this. After coming home from this second voyage was he would do did he feel that he was at the end of his life. Well he must have because he spent a lot of time in his cabin because he had rheumatoid arthritis he told me from staring too long at the sea his eyes actually

bled sometimes from looking at the sea too like he had gathered he was he was probably impotent because his his years of liaisons with women were no love no more. I just. Plus plus I think at some point he was almost there a bipolar moment during that voyage and he knew it was the end. And but in typical Columbus fashion he was ever the optimist he hoped to teach you who you actually hope for a fifth voyage. But by the time he got back to Spain at the end of the fourth voyage he had been so beaten up by all the way all the calamities of the fourth voyage I mean everything that could go wrong did go wrong. He was in no condition to to even get on horseback to go see the king let alone you know lead one more voyage into the unknown. Our guest in this hour focus 5 Martin to go on his authored a book which looks at the fourth and final voyage of Columbus and the title of the book is the last voyage of Columbus. It is published by Little Brown and questions are certainly welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4

5 5. What do we know of his early life and his intraday. Action into life at sea. Well he he was the record say. And there is people are arguing this contesting this but let's listen. You know with with what we know we know that he was born in Genoa somewhere around 14 51 somewhere between August and October 14th 51 his father was a woman and his mother had this lovely name Suzanne a fun time to insist. I just kind of rolls off your tongue. He was probably the oldest of several children but they're not sure if there was another child before him. What we do know is that his two brothers Diego and Bartholomew proceeded to travel with him. Several of his voyages in the years to come. And it is somewhere in his teenage years. Like many you thingee in Genoa which is one of the great imports of the time he put to sea. He probably the sailed around the Mediterranean sailed out of Venice maybe sailed over to Africa and you know pretty much pretty soon the voyages became longer and longer.

At one point he he finally moved to Portugal which was a hotbed of navigation you know if you wanted to be a navigator in those days you would you want to portico this like now if you are be a software engineer you go to you know it Cupertino back then it was the place to be was. It was Portugal and been a navigator being a cartographer there with a really sexy occupation and it was through the real cutting edge stuff and so Columbus and Bartholomew both moved to Lisbon and that's where Columbus doesn't really foundational work in his career that's where he sailed down the coast of Africa that's where he sails up to Iceland into Britain and to Ireland and that's where he learned how to navigate the open seas and how to take care of ill which was the Spanish sailing ship the little small Spanish sailing ship designed for open water sailing healers had a head of bringing close to land which would later serve him well when he was trying to to chart the land that he discovers and in then sometime around 14

80 Also he decides that he's had enough of this. This rogue seafaring life he's already had has already been married and his wife has died. He's got one son out of this marriage and he decides that he's going to find the money to go west to find this passage to the Orient and instead of going to the Spaniards first he goes to the Portuguese in the Portuguese Lapham. They can they basically say no that you're foolish. But then they also secretly send ships westward to find to see if Columbus was correct and that the captain turned back in terror because the ocean is so vast in Columbus by them has moved on to the Spaniards and in 42 they've finally given permission. We have couple of callers here to bring into the conversation let's do that. Start with someone listening in Indiana this morning why Number 4 0 0 0 You mentioned by him doing at his fellow sailors could also do the same thing because they learned how to do it just in a general sense I was wondering.

We never learn these things and least I'm pretty sure in high school textbooks we wouldn't I don't know about the college because I never took any history for that period but were there other people where they were you know learned under Columbus who reached the New World but it didn't make much noise so to speak and if there were some were the only ones that were sort of important. There were well fourteen ninety five the John Cavett sailed out of England and he was also from Genoa like Columbus and he he filled along the the North America you know the coast of North America by what is now to England but the Spanish explorers who followed in Columbus wake did some remarkable things. You know Columbus for instance discovered South America but they were the ones who actually charted much of the coast of South America and came in contact with many of the Indians in South America that the Korea especially and waged war with them and discover some of the wealth. And they

kind of helped this process of charting charting you know the the Caribbean rim. And then when one dealer cosa actually went up in discovered in charge of what is now Florida. See you have this slow expansion. But none of these people were really as well known as Columbus or at least they aren't today but back then they were relatively well known because that the seafaring community was so small. All right let's go to the other. And here champagne wine one yellow house. Yes yes I have a couple of questions. Number one and I think the answer is off the air but the first one was a. Diary of a barrier that we have now that we do research on our copy of the originals were lost and my first question and then my second question there if you could talk a little bit about that and then my second question was that there's been because of the way that he wrote and. Apparently from what I

understand the Spanish of the diaries that we have. That banishes is kind of awkward though there's like some doubt some not doubt but not a real knowledge as to where he originally but from if you can address the fishes out appreciate it thank you both. It's interesting because after Columbus died the Spanish began the slow process to to kind of deny His existence. They just slowly began to discredit him in the Spanish course so that if there got to a point where it Columbus was almost a non-person with and within 10 to 15 years of his death so many of the artifacts including his journals were were either sold or lost or totally disappeared so much of what we read though are copies there are still several original documents but many are copies. And it's interesting you you mention about the way he wrote Spanish because Spanish was his second language. But you know remember he's an Italian and he also spoke Latin. So if you read his stuff he

kind of weaves in a mixture of the three languages and he has his own little code if you look at the way he signs his name he's got a funny little way of finding his name that has led people to believe that there are conspiracies and there's you know kind of like a Vinci Code so to speak and in the way that he signed his name and you know which which I think is kind of cool because it kind of adds to this air of mystery around Columbus and I think the reason he did all these things was because it's again because the Spanish are working so hard to discredit him at a certain point he realized he needed to be a little bit more savvy than he and he was appearing and he began to be very very careful about what he knew and in how he showed it to other people. But yeah his Spanish was very clumsy because it wasn't his first language but all told he spoke he spoke Italian Latin Portuguese and Spanish. Well this is this is an interesting story because they're apparently there are all kinds of people who have tried to claim him. Certainly he for a telly and some Italian Americans. He is a hero. Apparently some Basque historians have said he was a Basque. Some people have

said he was from Corsica. Some people have argued that he was Jewish. Is is there is there really doubt about his his heritage where he was born what his ethnicity wasn't or if he actually there is you know funny my mother claims that he's Irish and I thought he had red hair but that might have them to do with it. Yeah you know red hair and freckles. Well here's the thing. Everybody the record show the Columbus is from Genoa and but there is evidence that the people of Genoa fabricated those records back at the start of the 19th century when Columbus kind of makes this reemergence reemergence onto the historical scene there and he's been he's been unknown for so long that when he came back into favor general it was really quick to claim him. And so some people say that everything was fabricated his birth records that his. If you think there's a birth records that his his parents ancestry then all that was fabricated and been so there is some people say that he was a.

That he was Jewish which may be true. And there are some people say he was the son of a Spanish nobleman which I don't believe is true and I think all of this could be answered very simply despite examining his DNA but it which they're trying to do right now in Grenada they've taken they've examined his body. They're taking bone chips and they're trying to get the DNA but his body has broken down so much that they really can't figure out if it was that we don't technologically have the ability to to divine whether he is Jewish or Italian or you know whatnot or Irish you know. But I think it's going to be interesting when that day comes because there Columbus he's this enigmatic figure and I wouldn't be surprised that even in death if he didn't have some mysteries that he would be you know passing along to us and it's a true one again one of the interesting parts of his story is the. That even after he was dead he didn't stop traveling his his remains were were picked up by people and taken all over the place and he actually had been buried

in several different places. There he travelled more in death than he did life. It's pretty funny now. He was he was originally buried in the northern part of Spain and then his body was moved to the southern part of Spain. And then per his own wishes he was moved to the Dominican Republic in the cathedral 10 to Domingo. When the Spanish lost control of his spaniel and the Dominican Republic and the French came in those remains were moved to Cuba and then later moved back to Spain. If you go to the big cathedral of Seville there's a huge supporter with the Columbus remains and the remains of his brother and his son. Interestingly though the people of the Dominican Republic claim that when Columbus his body was moved to Cuba it was the wrong Columbus that was moved. It was it was either his brother or his son that was moved to the medical Republic and that Columbus himself that his remains actually stayed in the Dominican Republic and so. So if you go to Spain you've got this this big Columbus grave site in Seville

if you go to the Dominican Republic there is a huge monument to Columbus a huge lighthouse that it says that they believe hold Columbus's remains. And again this is something that could be solved with the DNA but the people the Dominican Republic refused to allow the DNA to be the body to be for they can examine that DNA I think because it's a huge tourism thing for them and they don't want to lose that. We have another caller here we had to in just a second I'm a little bit past the midpoint here so I should introduce Again our guest Martin Dugard. He's authored a book instead of the last voyage of Columbus which looks at the fourth and final voyage of Christopher Columbus. It's out fairly recently published by Little Brown he's the author of a number of books all having to do with the adventure travel exploration. He's written about Captain Cook in about Stanley and Livingston. He's also written for Esquire outside Sports Illustrated and GQ questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 and I think we have someone here to talk with in Urbana line number one.

Hello hello yes I have read some books lately that color prayer brought up the question of who else did the exploring and are you familiar with Gavin Mandans Menzies book about the Chinese. Yeah yeah. And in the current nation Geographic has a major article on the same guy. They don't do we have anything beyond him exploring the east coast of Africa. But it's interesting to read that in these you know confirmation of some of the things that Menzies said about the huge stranger ship they head in and the way he traces artifacts that he says were left. And one of the interesting comments he has in there is that in Columbus's diaries when he went to Iceland which you mentioned a while ago he said in his writings from there that there is a mention that the Chinese had

been to Iceland. Well I don't know that that's interesting. So that was that's one of the pieces of evidence that he uses along with. A lighthouse of unknown age which is of Chinese dimension and style which sits in Connecticut on the coast who is interested in the different Stella written in different languages which are left all over the country and here include some DNA work not on the people so much better on animals plants which he says were transmitted or transferred around the globe by the Chinese in these earlier voyages and indeed both his book and in the nation to graphically imagines that with the change in emperors in China the whole idea of going out in the world was abandoned in the ships were all destroyed and most of the. Records were destroyed. So we don't have a continuing history of him and such as we have in the new world coming from Columbus. Thomas is

a fascinating character but I just this is a totally different perspective on who got where first. Well you know I think there's a lot to that in the yeah I don't. Columbus didn't live up to Columbus did not get to the new world first. You know what I'm not for sure. What makes Columbus is important is that he stayed right you know. The the Irish got there you know with Brendon the navigator. The Vikings were there the Chinese were likely there. All those people got there in every which kind of came back home. Right. Would make Columbus special is the Columbus came there. He went back home and then he brought people back with them you know come along with me you know we're going to do something special and he was able to make it stick. There's another interesting connection there in that they had this guy thinks that there was somebody from Russia but he was he was the European who was in the Indian ports and may have brought some of the Chinese maps back

for the people in Italy and Spain and Portugal to base some of their maps on. If you place the things straight of Magellan when Magellan was trying to go around the southern tip of South America he says that there's a log by one of his officers that gives the latitude of the strait before they ever left Europe. Oh well that's interesting that he has but to come from the Chinese. That's really cool. Yeah but you know that makes a lot of sense because the STS Magellan are really torturous it is. You'd have to do you actually have to know they were there to want to feel through them because it's it's really kind of a bit of a funny little passage where you get to know your way through it so that's really cool. That's interesting. And he says that the Chinese had to learn to navigate by the Southern stars because they knew how to navigate with a Northern Star. And there's one of the major

Southern Stars which basically is right over the Falkland Islands and at least it was at that time. That was used for that island area is the center point from which they describe things. Oh wow in that that is that's a very fair thing but anyway. But we'll see. Some people have discounted it another stupid thing the thing that makes it a graphic which kind of at least gives credence to the fact that they existed in the huge straighter hips existed in the name that they were exploring during this period of the 14 early 40s hundreds anyway. Now I really honestly think there's something to that. And I think that it's going to be one of those things that further research will show much more you know kind of bring more of this to light you know so the people will appreciate the complexity of what the Chinese accomplished.

Well I think the call is go on to the next caller here Chicago on number. For so long I didn't come in at the very beginning unfortunately but I heard more of the horror of the NAM that came with Columbus did you say. I understand that the king gave him Makana they gave the far people out of jail to go with him. If some of the people who came in it there was a second for the INF there were not a very nice man. Not everybody. It's kind of funny because when they came back when he colonized in 14 93 some of the people there were people who were given a choice between prison and being a colonist. Remember when Columbus came back he brought the so between twelve hundred seventeen hundred people with him which is which is quite a bunch of people for for the small caravels there wasn't a single woman in that group. So they asked all these men to go form this new world and among them were artisans

and craftsmen and priests. But there were also quite a few who were given the choice between going to prison in the during the Inquisition which was not a good time to be in prison or going to the new world and many of them chose the New World. So what kind of people were these I mean were they rough necks or were they you know are a mixture. I think it's more I think it's a mixture. I think that's OK. Also I heard that after some time you know after many voyages The king sent me is I don't know what you call I can't remember the words but you know his wealthy friends to Spain I mean to the new world and they were being all different kinds of rewards and doing all kinds of horrid things in America and then were blaming Columbus and then that because they were Spaniards and Columbus was a taboo in the So

that was you know easy to take. And and that Columbus. It was brought back to Spain and was put in chains until he died in a dungeon well and never received one cent of any of his contract or his family. That was the reason why he went there was he to make money for his family. Well it's interesting in if there's the way you just said there's there's a lot of that is kind of a myth around Columbus so kind of go back. He was he was doing he was doing it to make money for his family he had two sons. He wanted to move to Perth to provide for them after he died and the Spanish king did begin the campaign to take it away take the new world away from Columbus and particularly Governor Ovando who who was who succeeded Columbus as as the head of the Andes is his atrocities against

the Indians. We're horrendous he basically be began a genocide that it has been largely blamed on Columbus and Columbus had nothing to do with it. With the point where Columbus is throwing its chains is the end of the third voyage. It's again as if during the pivotal time when the people of the Andes these people who've gone over there are very unhappy with Columbus because Columbus was a guy who had to work for everything he got. He came from relatively modest beginnings and he worked every day of his life he was he was intensely you know labor oriented. And many of the callers who went to the new world didn't want to work they thought they were going to find gold laying on the ground. They're very unhappy with that. They were letters back to the king and queen asking for Columbus to be replaced. So when Columbus was finally replaced instead of just sending him back to Spain they put him in chains and they put him on a ship and they sent him back. But he doesn't die that what happens is he goes to Ferdinand and Isabella he's in the Alhambra which is a huge castle in Granada and he falls on his knees before

them inside their palace and he begs for one last chance for one last voyage to find this. This passes to the west. An amazing thing happened because he was on his knees he starts crying just pleading and he's this old man you know he's he's almost 50 which at that time was similar to being 75 or 80 now is gray haired. He's he's got this arthritis where you can barely get down on his knees and he's a really pathetic tragic character. And he has he's on his knees crying. Isabella begins crying too and she pretty much takes his hand and says it's going to be OK. We're going to give you the ship you're going to have that one last chance. And so then that begets begets the fourth voyage which is what my book is about is that the it's at the end of the voyage when he finally returns home. The Columbus dies but he's not he's not in chains. He's on his deathbed surrounded by his sons and some very good friends and he did he did. Accumulate some wealth for his family. He did OK and it's a great story because when when the Spanish

sovereign sent people over to replace Columbus and actually have him thrown in chains again we have the Spanish legal system that has a sense of fairness about it. And Columbus is allowed to send an accountant to to get his share of the wealth and have it sent back to Spain and the accountant succeeding to figure out the exact amount of money that Columbus is owed. And when that amount of money when that amount of gold is placed on a ship to go back to Spain it is the only one of the only ships that is not lost in the massive hurricane a 15 0 2. And so all these other people lost many people lost their lives many people lost their wealth Columbus's wealth gets back to Spain OK. And this led many people to believe that he was somehow a soothsayer or a witch because he could count could cause the thing to happen. That's one of the great pieces of luck that Columbus had and he as you say on this fourth voyage he comes back across he has this feeling that there's a serious storm brewing he

goes to spaniel it to both to warn them and to say look I need some place to shelter with the ships. They said beat it. They would not let him land. He did in fact go find a place to ride out the storm. The Spanish fleet headed out anyway most. Of them were lost except the ship that had Columbus's fortune on it and his Although his his fleet of ships was battered. He didn't lose a single sailor as a result of that hurricane. Now the thing people forget about Columbus again we have to begin to kind of break the mold when you think about Columbus season. He's such a polemic figure and he like to say his personal life was a train wreck but when he was on the seas. When he was on the open ocean he was brilliant and he really they said he was so savvy that he could navigate by scent. And so when he was sailing into his Faneuil at the start of the fourth voyage and he sees the storm brewing You know he has already seen two hurricanes in his life and her cancer specific to the Caribbean. He knows there's something going on and

he can't wait to go tell me he wants to save the people of Santa Domingo the city that he founded. He wants to do to prevent it from being destroyed. And they they won't even allow him to sail into the port and get off the ship and to his credit he immediately takes his men. They sail you know westward along the coast they find a small Anchorage and they ride out the storm and it just shows what a brilliant seaman he was to have been able to not only anticipate the storm but to take immediate action to provide to take care of his men. I think a lesser man might have hung around to spend to argue with case or to try to get to shore somehow. Instead Columbus did. He knew there was a storm coming and he took immediate action and it just showed that what he needed to be could be decisive and brilliant. Let's talk with someone here on cell phone this is line 3. Hello. Put pillows or go there. Yes I've been listening to the show from the beginning and as a Native American person I find it very interesting that all of these

treachery mendacity and greed and personal aggrandizement and all of the kind of stuff surrounding what opened what amounted to the opening of the door to the destruction of the Navy's high commission. And when I hear history and I reminds me of when I was a young in school how good it was all the impersonal all so heroic and yet the heroism and the brilliance of Columbus and all of that all of the service of greed and the destruction of the new world. And even though I respect the author and believe what he says it better. I just find it interesting in that respect. Maybe people who are just kind of an ass. It's not an owl you talked briefly about him being destroyed a cigarette and I think I understand it so I think there Columbus diaries where he looked

to meet people that had been basically contemplated how easy they would be exploited. Right. I just wanted to make sure of that that in there because I hear so much about Western European history and yet it destroyed the country of my ancestors and I just think it's a tragic thing to happen. And I find it really interesting that if surrounded by so much greed in duplicity and in spite of what some people may have done as individuals just it just makes me realize how your our current administration how all of the denial that that's how this country was founded and it was with ugly. So I just wanted to say that you know I appreciate the call and I think it's definitely a point that we need to talk about the ugly side of what Columbus Day. How do you how do you think about that.

Well I think a few things they first I mean I'm not his apologist when I when I went in to write this book I was very ambivalent about Columbus is a figure in one of the reasons I specifically chose the fourth for it is it's never gay tional invented and I think when it comes to the Native American population Columbus definitely has a lot to answer for. He he he he saw them as people to be exploited. Remember Genoa was the leading slave port in the world at the time that he was abused growing up so it was you know I think it's only natural that he be that he would see the indigenous population as something to use for laborers and for and for slaves and you know slavery was prevalent throughout the world of the time. But at the same time Columbus showed a singular lack of compassion. But I think the mistake a lot of people make with Columbus is twofold. They see there is this belief that that there was this idyllic life going on in North America of a major Native American populations before Columbus arrived. There was warfare there were

slavery there was just as much. Focus on stealing land and you know it was there was when Columbus you know amongst the Western Europeans the Native American populations were exactly living this idyllic life and at the same time too were what a lot of people do is they mistake for instance some people who made the connection between the war in Iraq or the genocide that the American government committed against the Native American population in the 19th century which to me that's the true genocide is not it's not what Columbus did by coming there and seeing these these people as potential laborers. But if that was there with the genocide of the 19th century by the American government that's what we have to answer for. And I I think that but for some reason because because Columbus got here because close to him a state he has become the one person everybody focuses all their attention on as if it was for the city of Columbus didn't get here somebody else would have come here first. So some people sort of come here afterward and I think Columbus behaved in the manner that every

person has behaved when they when they come to a new land and effectively conquer another civilization. And he did conquer civilization and he didn't even try to. To merge there to civilizations he he he was callous and he was he was very cold to the Native American population. So yeah I think Columbus has a lot to answer for but I think we have to differentiate between what Columbus personally did and what what has come to pass because Columbus showed up here. We talked a little bit about the fourth voyage about the fact that Columbus came back across he came back across the Atlantic to the Caribbean and then sailed over to what is today the coast of Honduras and then down Central America as far as Panama and actually was at the point where if if he had knew if he had known how to get there could have gone across and and stood there and looked at the Pacific Ocean.

He established a garrison there in a guess that it is what is present day Panama. Is it in Santa Maria de Berlin. Yes. And. To try to accumulate what he could either by trade or by taking it in and got on the bad side of the indigenous people there and found himself in the middle of a war or or one of the parties to a war. You know he was he was part of a war. It's funny because there were many of the tribes especially the Caribbean and in that the Indians along the coast of Panama were very warlike and very capable and their tactics were were nothing short of brilliant and Columbus guys were they were sailors they weren't necessarily locals but they were warriors. And so when they when they ran afoul of the Indians of Panama the Indians not only matched them you know blow for blow they amaze them with their stealth and their their ability to wage

war. It's very much like guerilla fighters I mean people who used used the landscape you surprise used stealth to to sabotage what the Spaniards are trying to do. And it was so was it that what finally I suppose was a combination of things of perhaps his health about his feeling on one hand that he had not succeeded in finding the westward passage that he had accumulated some wealth his ships were in very bad condition was that was that sort of. Nation of all of this it finally persuaded him as he persuaded himself he admitted to himself that that was that and that it was time to go home. Yeah it was just everything was it was all going to hell for lack of a better term you know he he he had found you know what he was trying to do with Santa Maria Belen was to to found a new colony a kind of a new Santa Domingo and a new Genoa if you will. The one of the big trade port he thought as a place for where there was there was literally lots of gold up in the hills they had found so much of it you know the Indians were working around their neck as

necklaces and and making mirrors out of it. And Columbus was hoping to make that a new civilization but you know as he the story is that he sailed away he realized that he had forgotten to fill his water. And so he has he went back to fill the water cask the men he had left behind to start this new settlement. We're under attack from the native population and they're good they're going to destroy it. And you know after the battle after he lost a number of men after his own brother is almost killed in that thing. Columbus's realized realizes that you know it's it's fruitless he's got to he's got to do something that he's he effectively gives up at that point and he just he starts when he makes a course back to Spain but his ships are sinking and so he has to turn and he runs into Jamaica where he spent a year being shipwrecked. That's another. It's just it seems that that as you say it's just one thing after another that the ships by this point were in such bad can. Dishan that he he seemed to think that he could actually sail home in the ships although it was although

clearly they were not up to it. Yeah you gotta remember a Caravelle is tiny it's about it's about the size of a Greyhound bus and you've got it and he he has sort of the force of him by this time he was down to two. And so not only is it tiny Not only do you have the crew of four ships crammed into the into two vessels but so much water with seeping in because the ship worms that the water was actually lapping up over the gunnels the decks are almost even with the water going when the men suspected Columbus of trying to actually sail home to Spain. They pretty much tried to mutiny right then and he knew that the smart thing to do was get them to spend Yola. It doesn't make it to his venue. It's interesting you know when you when I wrote this book you know when you write a book too there's an incident or two which is fascinating which which kind of gives the story its peak and then you kind of kind of taper off to the climax and and you can kind of quietly you know end your story but the thing about this voyage is that there was just just boom boom boom boom boom.

You know one thing after another you know the there's the hurricane there's the there's the Indian attack there's there's the shark attacks there's the there's the ship thinking there's the mutiny there's there's the battle between his mantis one calamity after another and Columbus rode this thing out. And again going back to your initial question I mean I think that's why he called it the high voyage because he survived so much on this voyage and basically But instead of returning home to Spain as the conquering hero he came back to view pretty much as a failure. And so whatever satisfaction he took in this voyage had to be personal. Well there will have to leave it. Where at the end of the time you want to read the story look for the book we've mentioned it's titled The Last Voyage of Columbus published by Little Brown by our guest Martin Garn. Thanks very much for talking with us. Well thanks very much for having me.