Focus 580; Zarqawi: the New Face of Al-qaeda

Good morning and welcome back to the second hour of focus 580 it's on morning talk program money was David Inge glad to have you with us. The producers for the show Harriet Williams and Martha Diehl and Henry Frayne back with us this morning at the controls. We are hoping that in this part of the show we will be able to hook up with our scheduled guest. His name is Charles Broussard. He is a French expert on terrorism and terrorism financing and we are scheduled to talk with him about a biography that he has written of Musab al-Zarqawi the man who I think has the distinction of being the most Munt wanted man today in Iraq for his organization of terrorist activity. The book was recently out here now in the United States it was originally published in France and he is in Europe I believe that he's in Britain and were trying to hook up with him. And we hope within the next minute or two to do that and if it turns out that that doesn't work out well we'll see if we can shoot for another time. Just let me take the opportunity to mention a couple of upcoming programs here. We'll be talking tomorrow morning in the second hour of our show

about depression. Our guest there will be Dr. Peter Kramer He is an M.D. doctor he's a clinical professor of psychiatry at Brown University. And we'll be talking about his recent book Against Depression another health related subject on the show on Thursday at 10 o'clock our guest Janet Golden. She teaches history at Rutgers University and there we will be talking about a book that she's written that looks at fetal alcohol syndrome the title of her book is a message in a bottle and then also on Thursday we'll be talking with some of the people involved in the current production of Rossini's opera Cinderella now going on at the Sugar Creek symphony and song and what Seacat will be talking with the stage director and also the president and executive director of the festival there so that's on Thursday we are here weekday mornings from 10:00 until noon. We have 10 different topics for you every week. And we do always welcome your questions and comments. Well indeed in this part of the focus 580 we will be talking with Joan Charles BROUSSARD He is an international

expert on terrorism and the financing of terrorism since June of 2002. He has headed the international inquest on behalf of families of those killed on September 11th 2001 who have lodged a complaint against all of those who either lent material or moral assistance to al-Qaida. He has testified before the United States Congress as well as for the president of the United Nations Security Council. He's also testified in a number of criminal proceedings concerning the funding of terrorism in 2003 October he testified before the Banking Committee of the US Senate on the progress of the struggle against the networks that provide that financing. He is a regular contributor to the international media including NBC ABC CNN the New York Times The Washington Post The Wall Street Journal The Guardian and Le Monde and he is the author of a book that was first published in France and now has been published here in the United States. That looks at the life and career of Abu

Musab al-Zarqawi. The book is titled Zarqawi the new face of al-Qaida and it is published by the other press. He's joining us this morning by telephone and as we talk questions from people who are listening are certainly welcome. The only thing we ask callers as a people just try to be brief. We ask that so that we can keep the program moving and get in as many different people here as possible. Questions though are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. That's for champagne Urbana listeners we do also have a toll free line that's good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 so at any point here if you have questions you're certainly welcome to call. Mr Preside Hello. Yes thanks for talking with us. Morning. We appreciate you giving us some of your time certainly. And I guess it's my understanding that you began to look into the life and career of as a result of this other work that you were doing

and investigating. Right correct. That's correct yes. Start out press we talk a little bit about his history. You tell us about how he growing up as a young man in Jordan was not particularly political not particularly religious in fact what he was was a petty criminal. Yes that's right. He was a basically a street fighter. He was suffering from the local situation and were very frustrated from from the local situation as a you was living in a poor area. And indeed he was basically known for Ukraine pretty crimes for drug dealings even for rape. And his mother decided to decided to to put the money in a mosque to making him go back to New rites. The right half and I say unfortunately it was the wrong mosque at a wrong time and the mosque of the mosque was a radicalized Muslim and taught him about

jihad and use only. That will be common wish will become to you to join the land of jihad it time which was Afghanistan and to fight alongside Saddam and not in others. What you will do but basically at that time of his of his childhood and when he grew up he was yes a street a street fighter. Yeah as you mention the his mother sent him to this mosque in Amman it was known as a place where people went to prepared to go to Afghanistan to prepare ideologically for that not militarily but to to prepare ideologically to fight the Soviets there. And he went in 1990 was only 23 years old. One of the things I guess I find myself wondering was to what extent you think that he was driven at this time by ideology or whether it was simply that he was attracted to the idea of the adventure of going to war. Oh exactly it was it was it was mainly due to going to ID he was looking for an adventure for

something that would you know pull him out of this. A suburb of mine where he was leaving at the time Afghanistan was an adventure for a lot of people in the Middle East. Iraq is today for others but yes he was mainly looking for a way to to go off. The situation in experience in Jordan Yes he is. Do you think that in the the process either the time he spent at that mosque or then going on to Afghanistan that he became more ideological. Yes. We know now that you met in Pakistan and Afghanistan several but he just leaders of the al Qaeda network or several mentors for some of them not and others including someone named Daisy Jordan born told him again about jihad about the need to to to to kill westerners and especially Americans and all that you know grew

up in his mind and. And you face in his mind giving the given these idees ideological or religious. He arrived actually at the time that he arrived there in Afghanistan the war against the Soviets was over. Yes exactly and that's one of the restrictions for him and he had to become a journalist a simple journalist in Pakistan following the last weeks of the war and then the defeat of the Soviet Union but he didn't he didn't fight at the time. It didn't match any any high ranking member of the al-Qaida network. He simply you know spend some time in you know Afghanistan and came back to his country with all the ideas of the jihadist movement at the time. And back in Jordan he wanted to overthrow the kindom King which was in his mind too close to the Americans. And betrayer Tutu Tutu is to his religion.

So he came back with all this background and he after he went back to Jordan after having been in Afghanistan he apparently was charismatic enough so that he had tracked a number of followers all people who were intent on being engaged in violent action. What what about him do you think that was it that attracted people to him. Well is it was the timing. He became charismatic was in prison and regarding his cell mates. What made him charismatic was it was as natural authority because he was using violence it was them modified and became the leader the chief of all the gangs up of various jihadists coming back from Afghanistan and trying to to overthrow the king or trying to use it to set up terrorist actions in East well and elsewhere he became their chief natural chief because it was the most violence and everyone was witnessing is a 40 at a time in prison where he spent five years.

And yet as you say when he came back to Jordan he became certainly became at some point came to the attention of the government as being someone who was dangerous. He was interested in trying to organize some sort of attack against Israel he was working against the government of Jordan so at one point he was arrested and he was put in jail. What sort of in what way. And you talked about the fact that here perhaps he has his abilities as a leader grew people that were attracted to him for he has his extreme commitment to violence. Are there things that you think that he learned when as a result of that experience that is that experience having been in prison for those five years in Jordan that shaped him. Well prison is always a context a difficult context and you learned how to live in those kind of contexts. It was always fighting against the police of the time

and everyone in the prison. So I think you learned most of all how to survive basically in a very difficult environment. The prison could be you know it was a very hard prison the time when you spend five years a high security prison in Jordan not known for you know with respect to human human being so you learn how to survive how to live and in this condition with his friends bumps I should introduce again the guest for this part of focus 580 We're talking with John Charles BROUSSARD He is an international expert on terrorism and on terrorism financing. He is the co-author of a book that was first published in France and now is being published in the United States about al-Zarqawi and the title of his book is Zarqawi the new face of al-Qaida. The other press out of New York City is publishing the book. He is also the author of an earlier book which is titled Bin Laden the Forbidden Truth that was again originally published in France in

2001. And has been published in a number now in a number of English a number of languages including English and Italian and Japanese and five others. Questions are certainly welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. As as you mentioned after having been in Afghanistan he came back to Jordan was arrested was put in jail in 1999. The king King Hussein died his son became the king and he declared an amnesty and several thousand prisoners were freed from prison there in Jordan. And one of them was Zarqawi. He then went back to Pakistan then goes back to Afghanistan taking with him a group of Jordanians who were following him. And at that that time apparently is when he establishes some connections with al Qaeda correct. Yes that's right. Basically is is a reputation as a leader in prison. I

went you know I reached Afghanistan at the time he was still in prison and especially in Iraq I don't know it was several Jordanians including I was a body. As a high ranking member of al Qaeda I had already heard about. While he was still in prison. When he was freed came in Afghanistan it was was welcomed by my this was a bite on board a Jordanian and basically was put in charge of all the Jordanians coming to to to recheck and later through all the Kurdish people also trying to reach the terrorist network and eventually settled a training camp a special training camp for him and his followers are have out in the border with Iran and that is when he became an insider of al Qaeda.

I also get the impression that there were some people in al Qaeda that didn't completely trust him because it spends you know five years in the in the Jordan jails and again these details were considered as very hard at the time and some believe that it's believed at the time that he would have been used by the Jordanian intelligence to infiltrate terrorist groups including al Qaeda. So there was some fears again on him for some time several months in Saudi a card on that work until they decided finally to get him a training camp and some financial means to to expand his network. To what extent was he an independent. Greater and to what extent was he part of al-Qaida. Well I understand that you don't because simply he was a local chief he was in charge of all the Jordanian all of the Jordan region all of the Syrian regime and later all the Iraqi regions so in that regard he was an independent he was running his own network of Rights

and terrorist to terrorists and God yes he was he was basically in charge of a specific field inside al Qaeda. He was not independent as we sometimes refer to him. He was at this time he was involved in a number of terrorist operations he was apparently still intent on some sort of attack against Israel. He was also continue to be active in Jordan he was apparently responsible for the for the killing of an American diplomat there. Yes exactly. The first terrorist act that really succeeded from from Zarqawi was the killing of U.S. diplomat lowered slowly and even up looking at the terrorist organization of this this terrorist attack. The logistic put a lot of material a lot of training also for the for the commando that will kill or kill it if you were diplomats were not just you know in this

mystery to kill him but he was you want you ready want to succeed and put all the means available to you to do that. He also was involved in planning and fortunately an unsuccessful terror attack in Jordan using chemical weapons that was quite ambitious in its scope and in fact if it had gone according to plan it would have been very very deadly indeed. Right that's the most recent blog I mean against Jordan's present lot and this plot as the default of folly. I talk also was carried out from the Syrian territory and used a lot of means again and maximum capacity in terms of what binary and to do to succeed Unfortunately the police had some tips on and several of the commando members and these but failed.

But it could have been effectively you know I'm aging for the population and I'm on an ass where you mention the fact that he was set up by al Qaeda and had an opportunity to build a base of operations in Iraq in western Afghanistan but also has Were has staged some operations from Syria. What sort of how important as a base of activity for Zarqawi has Syria been very important and began just after September 11 when all the members of fleet about to stand or from Pakistan or Iran and we won and Iraq settled some sometime in Kurdish parts of Iraq and then lived for about six months in Syria and this is this is why in and from from that country where you plot it.

Several attacks on not only Jordan but Spitz also tried later and he's well known in Europe even and Syria provided him with not only harboring facilities with money with training camps also banking facilities also to transfer money to several problems in Jordan and that's where the role of Syria clearly at that time just before to an invasion of Iraq was by the U.S. coalition was was very important. And he certainly touched on something that I think also here is important and that is the involvement of Zarqawi and of al Qaeda in Iraq in the in the northern regions in the Kurdish regions year a significant amount of time before the war before the current Iraq war but before the invasion of Iraq by the United States.

Writings. Zarqawi White was running a training camp in Iraq became close to the all the group active in Kurdistan and he took control of these groups in 2001 and at the end of 2001 he would root groups all these small we saw groups under a one bunny ear and sort of the group became a military leader of this group basically providing material providing human resources training to to to their members and this is this is really important because for him the starting point of the international network. We knew that all these groups were raising funds and and were supported by various individuals or groups inside Europe and elsewhere. And by taking control of this military training for distance you also to control of various support groups around the world and especially in Europe. We'll see later than that for example when he when he needed money

money was some of the money was coming from Germany some of the communication devices were coming from the U.K. or Germany also later. At the time in the fall of 2001 at the time that the United States launched its attacks in Afghanistan against al Qaeda. And the Taliban Zarqawi was there in Afghanistan the correct rights and you was wanted doing in and has a US air strike with various other leaders and then he fled to Iran at the end of 2001 the very end of 2001 and was helped again in that time by other networks including a network in Germany that provided him with. Ah sports and other materials he needed to cross the frontier in the border and succeeded to to reach Iraq and then later Syria. This too. To what extent you are talking here about the fact that

the. Time he his path out of Afghanistan at the time that it was under attack by U.S. forces or that Taliban were his way out of Afghanistan was through Iran. What was there any involvement of the government of Iran in this did that the government of Iran facilitate this in any way. Well I haven't seen any proof of that what I what I can say is that through telephone intercepts that were carried out that time by German police German intelligence. We know that during some conversations art how he stated that he was under the protection of the Iranians. We haven't we don't know if it if it means the Iranian government or part of the government or some sort of group inside Iran at the time. Perhaps I'll introduce Again our guest for this hour of focus. Right he is an international expert on both terrorism and terrorism financing. Since

June of 2002 he's been involved in an international inquest on behalf of families who lost family members on September 11th who have made a complaint against those people who one way or another either provided material or moral assistance to al-Qaida. He has testified before the U.S. Congress before the United Nations Security Council. I specified a number of criminal proceedings involving the funding of terrorism. He's been widely interviewed contributed to various kinds of media in CNN New York Times Washington Post The Guardian Le Monde and he is the co-author of a recently published book recently published in the United States and previously published in France that looks at the career and the activities of Abou Musab al-Zarqawi and it's titled Zarqawi the new face of al Qaeda and it's published here in United States by the other press which is in New York. Questions are welcome. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 we do also have a toll free line

and that's good anywhere that you can hear us. And that is 800 to 2 to 9 4 5 5 so here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 and toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. We have a caller to bring into the conversation someone listening this morning in Champaign. And they are on line one. Well yes the relationship between the coach and Iran is a little outrageous. He's a hardcore us in the extreme and recently from the attack said to have been from his gang and stuff like that I guess. And she stayed in Europe it was really hard news that he took that route to Iran. That's my first question. Yeah I think that that's a good point. Mr. Broussard as the caller suggested and I know that you have some information on this in the book is that Zarqawi has

has been virulently anti-Shiite which would which would indeed raise this question about why it is that he would seek any comfort or have any relationship with Iraq right. It stands against the rest and I mean it is coming after the war in Iraq. But the situation with Iran was the following I mean Iran was doing the whole the conflict within Afghanistan at its border again and on the other side it had Iraq Iran as a wish so to to to have it stands or to have control over over to groups the jihadi groups active of course in Afghanistan and that is why it played both the cold and warm I may say. We know that for years it provided a safe haven or hostage to virus terrorist leaders including leaders of al Qaeda. We know for example for sure that when crossing the frontier those members where I

mean the Iranian authorities have given orders to to do that the custom is not to put any stamp on their passport but to put a stamp on the paper so they were able to cross the borders at the time. A really outrageous because he's been killing leaders right and left and one card and that they help him support him and actually believing that the matter address and other other stuff that Syria which is another part of an agenda from the Kawi considering them as infidels and consider them as a country that is against God and also on the other hand these claims that they are helping them. That's also seems really mean and is on the other side where he's held by Iran and Syria would be on their own. The two sides of the equation that does that don't make sense. And

another small part of it. The code was never seen in Iraq or bothered by any Iraqi whatsoever not even you have shown about him at all through to the media where he published a lot of you know videos that he's always a mess where everybody knows his face who he is. That just seems to mean. Advocated to me. OK well the going to the first question you ran and Syria again should distinguish one side to the propaganda and on the other side the facts and the facts are there when seen in Iran. He was able from that territory to plan attacks and to harbor several of his members of his groups that he group. And on the other side regarding Syria. The same happens. We

know for sure that he was there. I mean people from his own network testified before courts in Jordan and elsewhere. We have traces of his presence at the time in these countries because you simply crossed you had to cross borders and we know from his various passports whether fake or real that he crossed the borders and settled for some time in Syria. And but also Iraq. Now regarding the second issue. You're right I mean he was not directly present in Iraq. The Kurdish part of Iraq as you probably know was not under the control the full control of the of the government of the time I mean before the war between 2001 and 2002. Most of the meetings for example for regrouping the forces the Kurdish the Psalmist for example to place in Iran. We know where we know who was there and we know Zarqawi was there also because other people

testified he was there. What you took you were referring to two videos. I mean we have various videos back in the year 2000 in 2001 showing him in Kurdistan with other fighters. OK. So he was there for some time and we know we controlled those groups for sure. I don't want to hold the line too much higher. It was reported by so-called Islamists in the north of Iraq that was present have prior to the collapse of Baghdad. It was it was. He was reported killed by the Kurds. Places and you see a significant change in the movement that has been at times till now not really any attacks came from that area. You always see always happening in

the middle and and south to some part of the Shi and possibly middle Simmy and a little bit to the church. But you never see and like all of a sudden their switch is flipped that day that he was reported not a video not not a picture not any intelligence of any significance. Everybody says those it's very it's funny but never mentioning what is that trace. Where is it from or any concrete evidence. Because if we had anything we would have went taking him out and everything would be game over. Thank you very much. Yeah what do you believe that there is any evidence to suggest that in fact he might not. Be alive any longer now because we know that. I mean you know there's some real you know there are various groups in Kurdistan they're fighting each other and they're making

every group has its own agenda and propaganda and we know for for now moms I mean of course I've seen these many reports of Zarqawi being killed being captured being wanted. I mean and each time you came for from basically the same sources so simply did the sources. But again we have traces clear traces of his presence at the beginning of the war in Iraq and the danger in Syria and the elsewhere. And these are facts. I'm sorry but these are facts. Just one more point and then I'll get on to the next caller. We talked about the fact that Zarqawi was involved in trying to organize extreme Islamist elements within Iraqi Kurdistan before right before the toppling of Saddam Hussein so obviously. This was this was part of an al Qaeda strategy to organize and be involved in that area. The United States prior to the Iraq war tried

to make the connection between Zarqawi and the government of Saddam Hussein. Is there any evidence to show that there was indeed anything in the way of a significant kind of contact or relationship between Zarqawi and the government of Saddam Hussein. No indeed. On the contrary we mention in the book that's members of the Zarqawi network where arrested in Baghdad prior to the war in Iraq. We also mention the fact that even if contacts may have existed in the past between al Qaeda and and some parts of the regime of Saddam Hussein it was never facials or conceived as a real science. And I don't believe the Iraqi regime already sponsored or or provided support to any of the of these groups because it's what it was not its intention of course Hugh was that it was basically letting them

in for example in Kurdistan. But again Kurdistan was was out of control of the government at the time. And so yes. All right let's talk with another caller someone here locally in Champaign Urbana this is lie number two. Interesting comment on the details of some finances. For example like the news says there's a plan to revive the gold to DNR and they are is going to pay for oil and that's popular in some places and not so popular and the like is there any Mideast bank that issues its own credit cards and if so how would they do that to a mysterious customer who has no fixed address and so on and in Baghdad they found a hundred million in western currency in a trailer and it was that real currency and maybe some of the victims have a claim on that. Yes. We know that several members of his groups

used the Iraqi banks over the over the top all the time. And this is this is still indeed a mystery because these people had no real address in Baghdad or elsewhere. And when these banks were state for some of them you most of them were state bank for the time. But we know they moved money they the money to move money from Iraq to to Syria and Jordan for the purpose of the group. And this is this is still unexplained right. Tell us just. About this is obviously something we should spend a lot of time talking about the significance of the activity of Zarqawi and his network within Iraq today. Well today to situation is that's beginning with the offensive in Iraq. Several groups

insurgency groups were formed and there were corresponding to each for a tribe you know each tribe wanted to to have its own insurgency group. The what makes interesting Zarqawi is that you've been able of using violence and other communication means and attracting Of course the attention of the media and the public. You managed to be caned incarnates the CI to be chief of these groups and we've seen over the past few months that several small small groups of insurgents have decided to rejoin. Now that you formed in Iraq. Again because he succeeded with violence to impose himself even to two other groups you decided to launch his campaign of beheadings to be the most cruel and then to try to appear as the most well known terrorist and insurgents

in Iraq. Has he been and has he has has his network been involved in terrorist activities outside of Iraq. Yes we know for example that these are how we network that provided financial means for the Casa Blanca bombings. We know that the second in command within his network came in the street before to Madrid bombings to train and to give advice to to several of the plotters of the market bombings. We also know that several of those and were several members of his group were trying to you to plot chemical attacks chemical attacks on Europe in U.K. France and also in Chechnya. We have another caller here let's talk with them line number one this is in her banjo. Hello hello. Yes you're in the middle of conversation I heard that the guest said he had thought of going to St..

I want to know if you could. When was he in his. We are Was he can. Can you do that as a result. Yes well you know riots in Afghanistan in June 99 the Iraq training camp or settled in and beginning of to go year 2000 until until September 11 the camp was was located just nearby the. The governor Governor rate the headquarter of the of the the province near the border with Iraq. Yeah the border would go on. Yes thank you. OK. Hope that other question. Well I'm just curious because

what you see you have the water would you don't get is really no good if some little subdistrict building is for custom property to others but. To make a training camp if they're devoid of you join you and it ended in 99 was of course this time was the undertone involved. Who saw that. It makes it quite difficult to operate the data but nevertheless you know I can know what to do to end it. Prove the point of one who could not prove why do they just stick to the principle of scarcity of I'm sure

people know exists. I don't know this song would be quite legitimate to tell and involve others make it difficult to pretty well come when you want to make on that Mr.. Well first again I mean the training camp was located around 25 kilometers from the Iranian borders voted were we know that. Also in the training camp what settle the relationship between Iran and Afghanistan was eased and the border was was we opened a nest of Taliban regime which was still active a force in that region so. So well what say yes eat you was active there and members of his group were able to reach across the border very easily

and we know that again from interrogation of Nambour members of his of his network at the time. All right. Thank you. Thanks for the call. And when we when we talk about it a base. How many how many people are we talking about having been there. Well if we're speaking about the every training camp we know that's 15 different nationalities have been trained there by Zarqawi which represents around 1500 people. So 2000 in 2001. So Fifteen hundred people in and out of there over a period of about a year. Right. Going back to the significance of Zarqawi in not only in Iraq today but in terms of his ability to stage operations outside of Iraq. And I asked this question and

expecting that he will have a particular answer. Now the Bush administration has made the argument that the war in Iraq is important and it's important battle in the international war against terrorism and have. I've said that you I'm sure have heard some of the president's comments saying that it's better that we fight the terrorists there than we fight them here. And so they made that strong argument that that's why it's important for us to be there. Other people have said that in fact as a result of our military involvement in Iraq and the increasing presence and organization of people like Zarqawi that in fact now Iraq has become an important base for terrorism is a more dangerous place than it was and is a greater threat than it was before so that if if the Bush admin if the goal of the Bush administration was to make us safer it's not been successful. Knowing what you know about Iraq about Zarqawi about al Qaeda do you. Which of

those do you think is the correct assessment. Well well I say you know both right. I mean or Bush was wrong before the war. But he is right today. They became the epicenter of terrorism in the world. And of course this was this was a direct consequence I mean in direct consequence story of the invasion of Iraq but the fact is still there and this is why we all must find these networks in Iraq and not only the United States but all the Western countries and all the countries in the world I believe. I of course as many in Europe was opposed to the war but today it's a fact that Iraq is today the epicenter of the Islamic terrorism and probably also the network and Zarqawi as the major role in this in this picture and this is why you know I believe we should all fight this network which is

today. You know Iraq but not to put too fine a fine a point on this you would say that that Iraq would not be a locus of international terrorism to the extent that it is had not the United States invaded. Right. Yes correct. We have about 10 minutes left in this part of focus 580. Again our guest is Josh Broussard. He is an international terrorism expert. Persica Lee on the whole subject of financing of international terrorism. And he is the author of co-author of a book that was first published in France and now is being published in the United States. It looks at the career of Musab al Zarqawi the man who is arguably the most wanted man in Iraq today. His book is titled Zarqawi the new face of al Qaeda. And here in the United States published by the. Other press which is based in New York we have a caller here others are welcome in about 10 minutes left in this part of focus 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 here in Champaign Urbana toll free

800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We have a caller here in a nearby community of Belgium and that is line number four. Hello good morning. You know listening to your conversation over the last 45 minutes or so I get the impression that this gentleman is a very bad person. And he doesn't seem to have any scruples about hurting anybody whether they may be associated with him or not. And you would think that after a period of time somebody else would want to have been done and besides just the Western powers. I mean all these people were being killed in Iraq on almost a daily basis by these suicide bombers which seemed to be generated from his area are killing a lot of people who are really sort of be on the same side he is I would thought. Why won't why aren't these people pushing hard to eliminate this risk to their lives. I'm sorry. Last question.

Well yeah I mean if you want to restate the question OK I can put it over shorter. He seems to be the person who is causing a lot of problems. Admittedly the United States government's involved with it too but this gentleman is directing people to kill people. There also could be relatives. Essentially why don't they want to stop his activities. OK because I guess again you know Zarqawi represents a minority is not the majority of US majority of the Iraqi people but you followers are believing the same as the do they believe that everyone cooperating with the US for DS is that they should be killed that even Muslims cooperating with the US authorities west in the 40s should be killed. And again it's an extremist minority but it's still a minority a very active minority. So that that's exactly what I'm getting answer. If he is such a minority and other Iraqis don't want to continue dying I don't pay help then bring this guy out of work.

Well he's predicted obviously where he is I mean where he's active especially in the Sunni Triangle. He's protected by various networks and various religious forward tees or political authorities in the United States of course and we no doubt. But again it's still a very small area in the country. I just mean that they would be able to put more effort themselves into into their own security and the United States should leave. I agree 100 percent not solve a great deal of the problem but maybe they should step up and say this guy's gotta go. Well you also realize that for some reason and for some time now it started starting to chant but until the elections I mean several have used Zarqawi in the power I may say of the Zarqawi in the media and elsewhere to do so to strengthen their own politician and this was the case for the for the sunny sunny population who would you believe

who believed at the time that the only way to succeed for them and to just to to remain in power in their in their territory was to succeed in showing that the country was one be governed but by shock majority and the not and that the United States will fail in their attempt to impose democracy in Iraq. So basically they also used Zarqawi for their own purposes. So. That's on him. I think that's an important point to underscore that point I think that I'm sure there are a lot of people who would essentially agree with the caller and you would too that there would be a lot of people in Iraq today who would be quite happy to see Zarqawi killed and out of the way. But at the same time in this this very confused conflict this this power struggle struggle between various groups after the collapse of the Hussein government and still in this continuing process to to build something new there has been a lot of there's been a big power struggle and he's been a part of it and he has been

he has been used by people who were interested in the kind of power that he had. Now today they might not want to have anything to do with him but as you say it's it's been an important force in the whole mix. Well let's go in and talk with someone else when we have a caller here in Champaign line number one. Oh yes and I guess I'm like reading on. I was wondering if you could address the similarities with the Algerian war as far as fear among the populace. But that is created by the insurgency that you have to be with us or against us. And also what the U.S. didn't really reckon with apparently with Iraqi nationalism the strength of it and the fact that they would just resist an occupation by a foreign power especially the U.S.. Yes I'm sorry I'm sorry. Yes. POWELL You may do it with. That's

right. Right. Well it's quite interesting and indeed we see today it will come virgins between Zarqawi and the adjoining groups for example especially DSB seat because the old world grown for him from the same basis as you as you just just stated with a g f you see is the Sufi group for the Sufi Group for Preaching and calm but ok ok. It's a it's a group which there is from from former Afghan. Competence and today is the more probably the more dangerous and not only in you know Jerry but in Europe elsewhere and there is still a real convergence between between these two groups. We know that the GSP see praised allegiance to Kerry very recently. We also know that these group calls for Zarqawi to kill Germans in Iraq and elsewhere in the world. So it is very interesting to see that groups you know grown from the same basis are sure

they are converging. I'm going to have to jump in my apologies to the caller we're almost out of time. Just as a general question you think that kid that Zarqawi and his network will continue to be continue to be a threat both in Iraq and outside of Iraq. Yes that's for sure. We know that's now for some several weeks there's been a lot of talks inside al Qaeda. Rock and in that moment the members of his of his group to basically today exports and someway the Iraqi conflict in the west here or in the United States and his will is well supported also by Osama bin Laden who publicly praised he should strike the United States is clearly probably choose to attack. Indeed Europe or United States in the in the future weeks and months. Well I want to thank you for giving us some of your time Mr. Azhar and we appreciate you very much. Our guest is Charles BROUSSARD He is an international expert on terrorism and terrorism

financing and is the co-author of this recently published book recently published here in the United States titled Zarqawi the new face of al-Qaida and it's published by the other press a book that was published previously in France.