Focus 580; Global Womens Issues and Knowledge

In this part of focus 580 will be talking with one of the editors of a major new work recently published work of women's history and scholarship. It's the Routledge international encyclopedia of women which looks at conditions of women around the world. It provides articles region by region on many different issues including feminist movements women's education health care and much more. The guest this morning. Cheryl Kramer a was for a number of years a member of the faculty here at University of Illinois. She has published many books in articles dealing with communication gender and technology at the moment. She's a visiting professor for the Center for the study of women in society at the University of Oregon. One of the things that she was involved in here at University of Illinois was putting together a model program that was called Women information technology and scholarship often referred to by its initials wits. W I ts that was designed to try to help women faculty and staff members had to

give them computing support and support for each other to involve women in determining the technology priorities for the university. And she's joining us this morning by telephone to talk about the international encyclopedia of women. And the question certainly are welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 is the telephone number here in Champaign Urbana So if you're local use that number we do course have the toll free line that's good anywhere you can hear us. Illinois Indiana any place that Satan will travel will pay for the call that 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 so again 3 3 3 W I L L and toll free 800 to 2 to W while O. Professor Graeme Wright Hello good morning. Thanks for talking with us today. I'm enjoying being here. It's good to be back on campus. Well it's it's good to have you back I'm sure that you have many friends here who would appreciate hearing your voice. How long was this at work

in progress. Too long. It's been about a dozen years since we started plans at the time we thought that we could do it in four years. And how many people all told were involved in the effort. Oh we have a cast of a thousand. There were more than 800 contributors and then all the other people involved making recommendations helping with editing topic editors that did so much in constructing the architecture of the book. What what need do you. Were you trying to fill him in was there indeed really nothing else. Stamp like this. Nothing. And we realized in the late 1980s that there had been many years now of feminist scholarship and yet when people went to reference

work you couldn't find this in one easily accessible place and certainly there was nothing International. And I guess that's where what I'm really interested in whether in fact that this was it was an issue of wanting to have a in a sense between I know it's more than one volume but it stands between two covers that this information gathered together or whether in fact there is material here that it's not just a matter of having altogether one place there's material that really doesn't. It actually doesn't exist anyplace else that's interest. Because when you pull it together it is indeed a new material. And you know we we've just got one of our first reviews from one of the library reference services and I was just delighted that they they said this qualifies as a browsing book. And you know I think that people will indeed be able to open it up and find that they can

read and read about things that they have no idea. That's it. It puts me in mind of a book that you were involved in that I know we talked about a long long time ago the feminist dictionary that I did which which take indeed took the form of a dictionary but it was one of those books that people and people who have done this before they have used that as a kind of a structure to write what is essentially a piece of social commentary and in Indeed it that also is a browsing book. And so I can understand how regular and I did indeed. So I can see how indeed that this would be one of the themes things that you could use if there was something in particular that you're interested in. You can go and look for a particular entry but it could also be the kind of thing that one could pick up and page through. And when something caught your interest then it simply simply read up on that thing and can't. Yeah yeah. So is this I would expect that perhaps the prime audience for this would be

libraries and research institutions. Yes I mean it's and we we hope that it will be an all. All public libraries high school libraries. Certainly all academic libraries and we're also finding that individual scholars. Are awful interested in their. Approaches for their own library. The how to. This is such an enormous sort of undertaking when you think about everything that one could put into something like this how did you even go about thinking about what it was that you wanted to include. Yes. We were very fortunate we gone through a number of publishers as the publishing world has changed but the first publisher approached us that with luck were budgeting a million dollars. You tell us how you think that should be constructed. And that's all that was wonderful freedom to try to figure out

how how to do such a thing and what we did initially because you know they'll spend as much trillion from us how do you make this international. We began by having two international conferences. To get advice before we did any planning of our own. And I remember the first conference we had the women from quite a number of countries and they kept saying well what did you have in mind they kept thinking that we had a structure in mind that we wanted confirmation for and what we really wanted was you know how do you start dividing up the world what topics need to be included. And eventually they figured out that there really wasn't a prior organization. And they did a great deal of work in that conference and trying to structure such a work. And you did you do have contributors indeed from all over the world from Europe from Africa from about 70 countries and certainly every continent other than

Antarctica and dealing with areas including Here's the list arts and literature and culture and communications and economics and education and health and religion and science and technology it's a very wide range. Well said. Didn't matter. Yes and what's important there is that what we did is ask each of those areas those broad areas. In the end the encyclopedias in alphabetical order. But those areas you just mentioned that each had a topic added to it someone who is a specialist. For example the culture and communication is and BDA from the U of your U.S. Institute of communication research. Peace and violence is everything iconic from the French department there. You know both you know people who knew international people are working in all aspects of their areas. So then then the subject editors then they

thought well OK then within this this wide region these are some of the things that we should be addressing. Then they went out and was it a matter of then those people went out and said OK now here are the people I'd kind of like to have write entries and this is what we think we should be dealing at. That's the basic That was the basic construction that we agreed upon. And we said initially you know we're OK if you had 50 topics under you know for example a culture in communication what would those be and weigh them. So you know if you have entries. 500 words or 2000 words you know how much should each of these be. And that's where there are a Nischelle organization. 4 vols. came into being. But then of course there were things that fell in the cracks I mean I'm I'm interested in. I do a lot of drumming hand drumming and you know where court is that it wasn't it wasn't listed under arts and yet

for centuries that's been an important activity of women handwringing and so you know there were things that we had to add. And then as the years went on we added a great many topics because that you know we saw. We saw first of all gaps and then we awful far emerging important areas of research. It seems like this would be a great opportunity for a four CD-ROM version multimedia kind of thing. Had you thought about that. Well maybe next next. Doubt and indeed you know it's been used for that possibility it's been entered in a database with that possibility but that that's a different one. I think it's a slightly different project. We have a very extensively index it. I think there's something like

30000 entries in the index but of course if that were the room that they would be linked in other ways. So it's enough it's another project. Our guest in this our focus 580 shares. Cramer a she is the coeditor along with Dale Spender of the Routledge international encyclopedia of women. It is a new work. It's not just come out in four volumes with almost a thousand entries with contributions from people from the United States and all over the world dealing with of the wide range of subjects and we just touched on a few of them. Things like economics and education and health and women's studies and questions come it's certainly a welcome if you like calling into. Talk with our guest is she currently is a visiting professor for the Center for the study of women in society at the University of Oregon here in Champaign-Urbana MEMBER 3 3 3 9 4 5 5.

We do also have a toll free line that's good to anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 0 0 0 in in the process of doing this. Where there are things that you learned that even as someone who's been working in the area of feminist scholarship for a long time that even you did not know previously. I think on any one page there are probably 10 things that I did know I thought you know I had been in women's studies for three decades now and I thought that I knew a pep up things. But I learned a great great deal in good part because it's international and things that I had that I knew about. I didn't know the international implications. The international aspect. Well maybe can you give a specific example just something that when when you read that section. Not only did you say well I didn't know this

before that you were really I'm impressed by something that you learned. Yeah. I have for example radio show that I have done a lot of research on the radio and women's involvement or knock in the U.S. and in the U.K. And I thought that I knew a lot about women and how women were represented or not. And programming issues from very early 20s on and then a woman she's actually from the University of Alaska wrote an article that took a look at other countries. We know from our work in. Us in England that it was initially owned and

controlled by the military and commercial sector. And initially there was no interest in having women involved in any of the announcing of the programming. And in fact in the United States there wasn't daytime programming because they thought well you know only people would have time for those housewives. And they didn't see what they might you know what interest there might be in broadcasting to them and so there was initially evening and very male dominated. And you know I've I've sort of tracked this and how this changed in and what happened in World War Two when they started having to. Good gracious employ women as announcers. And all of the assumption before they wouldn't hire women as announcers because they kept saying well you know if people won't listen to women's voices they're too high. And in fact in England they even said that the equipment or the radio equipment couldn't handle women's voices. And of course

all this turned out to be nonsense. They said that initially when they said send out calls for announcers they would say you know women need apply you know so they didn't have to turn away at the door because they said that for example people wouldn't listen to nudes they wouldn't treat it as serious if it came from a woman. And then during World War 2 when they were forced to hire some women announcers by golly people start to listen to them believing that. Even when it was announced by women and so I thought that I knew a lot about this and I knew I thought that I knew about who was listening. For example the United States women listened more even than men do on average in the United States. People listened to hours a radio program each day but women listen more in part because radio listening is off a lot done in cars driving to and from work or shuttling children. You know what.

So it's up to me to be much higher. No one's listening time is estimated to be much higher than man's. But in developing world that's not true and women and men still own radios in far larger numbers than women and make up a greater share of listeners. In other countries. And then I learned about listening radio listening clubs of rural women in Zimbabwe and you know it's just a great many things that I thought that I knew something about. Radio listening but I found I didn't. We have a caller to talk with and also and make sure other people listening know they're certainly welcome into the conversation here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 is the number we do have also a toll free line so if it would be a long distance call for you. Use that number will pay for the call that's 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. First caller here is in their banner.

Lie number one tell you I'm reminded of a T-shirt that I have it's now kind of worn it needs to be updated. It's a tribute to you and Paul the truckload says feminism is the radical notion that women are people insisting well could carry broad now into a cyclopedia. Can you tell me how much this cost is it one volume multiple volumes is something that the average person like myself mind consider adding it to our home library or is it beyond my reach. Well information on that can be found at The Rutledge page but it is expensive in terms of a single volume of courses for in terms of a single work of course for volumes it's $500 by word it's pretty it's a pretty big bargain because these are these are large. OK well it gives me an idea and save for it.

Thanks. OK thank you. Other questions are questions comments are welcome 3 3 3 W I L L toll free 800 1:58 W while I get maybe I should introduce Again our guest. We're talking this morning with Paris Kramer A She is the coeditor along with Dale Spender of a major new reference work the Rutledge international encyclopedia of women Routledge is the publisher it is indeed a four volume set has a great deal of material contre B. From authors writers around the world on a wide range of subjects and the kind of thing that maybe you might not be able to have on your own bookshelf but certainly the kind of thing that you should expect to find in the library. And as I said I expected that the major purchaser of the of the set probably will be libraries so you can look for that coming soon to a library near you. And again to other questions are welcome. Rutledge I mean I know as a publisher that has a special interest in publishing women's history. It

was it was the process of finding somebody who was interested in publishing this work was that difficult. It's had one could do one could take a look at the history of this encyclopedia and take us as a case study for what's happened with publishing. I think in the last dozen years it started be because a publisher came to us and said what if because it would be it would benefit strange thing for us to dream about doing ween because of the expense of such a large work. But they. Seem to us however that as the publisher started buying up one another it got caught in the whirlwind. And I think we have we have had six or seven publishers and sometimes it has it has just moved you know its been bought and sold by the companies and we've just sort of

moved along with it. But a couple times it then was just left out of all of this negotiation and we had to find a new publisher and we were very fortunate I mean with all of the laughs when we were lucky because it ended up. The publisher that we had been in been with which had been very supportive and we've done a lot of work with them. It ended up being owned by a TV home shopping company. And you know I think well what we're doing what I want. Type of PDA. And so we contacted rabbit and Rutledge was immediately interested because they have done a lot of women's studies at work and they had a very well established reference. S. So we were very very fortunate and you know with with the

press that we ended up with was certainly a point something that said that is a serious issue in publishing. We've talked about it I guess been previous programs and that is well you go to the bookstore you go to the library and you look at the names that are on the spines of the book there are all these different names. But when you look at in fact who owns all of those imprints you find that over time smaller and smaller number of very large companies are controlling most of the publishing. And as that has happened making money on books has become more and more important to them and for that reason it's been really difficult for people who are writing either literary fiction or who are doing something that's really of a high quality of nonfiction nature books that deal with social issues and political issues and history and biography and science and all those sorts of things. I think it's just getting more and more difficult because the publishers they want to. Much money they're going to make.

That's right. And we were at one point with a publisher who said oh no we can't add any additional entry because you know I would find things yet we have to have this. And they would say oh no you know we're we're way but beyond our budget we can't do that. And if I say we were lucky that we ended up where we were because there was no hesitation on their part in adding authors. And one of the things that we started out with a decade more than a decade ago is we wanted to make sure that the contributors got paid you know at least an honorarium that women do. So much of this work volunteer and indeed most I think of the author most of the authors of the contributions would have been willing to do it for you know the cost for this project. But we were pretty animate with all the publishers that we dealt with that the writers would have to get paid at least you know what a man writing an encyclopedia entry would get paid what them the more manly encyclopedia of what their they're going rate was for their contributors.

That's a minute I'm going to go out and look for myself a manly insight. You know our Most of the most of your contributors I'm Sam looking here at the list of the subject editors and they do seem to be academic women or men who who make their living as university professors are are most of the contributors and indeed professional academics certainly many of them are. We also have a lot of activists. The Boston Health Collective a book collector has been very involved with that and indeed activists from other places. You know what your question brings up something that was a real big issue when we were beginning and that was whether we should have biographies of women that the subtitle of this book is global women's issues and knowledge. And we wanted to make it clear that what we were dealing with issues and knowledge because and this was something that Dale Spender felt awful. She really was determined that we have a biography

you know. A small sketch of all the women who have been involved with knowledge making but the women from a number of countries that that first of all it be enormously difficult to make those decisions and that some of the people that they would want to include were people who could get in trouble if there if if they were represented in the Cyclopedia because they were doing underground work. And so it was on the basis of the advice of women from other countries that we decided to focus on issues and knowledge and not sort of little sketches. Well that certainly points to an issue that he has. That we might not fully appreciate here in this country that I'm sure there are places around the world where being a feminist literally and figuratively is a crime. That's right. That's right. And but at the same time we

did find women in all these countries who are activists and there while indeed many of the people who wrote are connected to universities we also have a number of people involved in collective ways and in various places. Just going back for a moment to you talked about the fact that at one point one of the publishers you were dealing with was felt that the project had gotten big enough already and you were saying to them what we need to include more entries and they said no no where it's already too too big. Given the fact that it is a big work already it's four volumes over a thousand entries. When you're working on a project like that how do you know when to stop. How do you get yourself to say OK I think we've we've done it it's time to say it's finished let's print it. Yeah yeah and of course if indeed there had been a delay we would discontinue it.

It's topics but because we did a great deal of cross-referencing qual there you know almost a thousand entries. There are all kinds of cross listings and so you know and B does I say that I think there are about 30000 lines in the index. We felt that we have at least mentioned almost every issue one could think of and I think that that's something that will be a surprise to people if they take a look in the Wikipedia that there are you know you think you know the topics for women's studies but then you know we have all sorts of topics that you don't necessarily associated sociate specifically with with women's studies. Someone said What do you have car. And we said Well we certainly have transportation and cars are. I discussed in the data who's owning them is driving them where they are. What difference that they have made to a women. You know all sorts of issues and we have

travel that included. So there are you know you could look in the index and look at the car and certainly find a feminist analysis that are related to car. The US I know who have been very involved in and other women scholars have been very much involved in exploring women's history contemporary conditions for women all things that in the past scholarship. I think you would say scholarship had neglected. It's not exactly new but the the field of women's history is something that that has grown steadily probably over the last I don't know maybe 20 30 years. And and scholars have have tried to address the the fact that in the past historians would have said well what women do and what they have done just it's not that important. And in fact I think a lot of scholars historians have started

to look at history very different and have moved away from the the quote great man sort of approach to the idea that says all kinds of people make history and that maybe some of the most important people were those that whose names didn't come down through the ages and certainly a lot of them were women. Well I wonder if you could say something about where women's history stands right at the moment and how much has been accomplished and what Yet you would like to see accomplished. It's one of the things that we tried to build into the encyclopedia and that we asked people in writing the entries to include things history to work on you know whether it is Islam or adolescence or quilting or whatever you know what the history is and as much as possible globally so that in a sense a lot of that

material is in in in these volumes as well of course the contemporary debate. We tried to ask the individuals writing entries to not include only their own perspectives but to try to include the debate and the historical debate as as well. And so this is in many senses a tribute to the years now that we have of women's history and history making in many senses you know including them. The history of history. And one of the reasons that we were interested in doing the encyclopedia is that we have evidence of about 60 years now of women complaining about the encyclopedias that are out there supposedly the authorities the most fornicating sources and

in the 1940s a woman a story and wrote. Mary Beard wrote about things that were an Encyclopedia Brittanica and I think one of the things that she pointed out was cookies you know cookies. That there was no no entry about how that's done. How it has been done you know at that that the institution the rituals everything the equipment that wasn't there. Well why wasn't it there I mean because women weren't involved in determining the categories and in writing on entry. I think that's a point that's worth suggesting that people at least think about I suppose any time they look at a reference work something even as as big and as authoritative as we might think a Britannic I mean you know we don't want to pick necessarily on its likely be the Britannica but everything is not in in that or in any encyclopedia and I suppose one has to ask this question Well whoever it set down to make this how did they think

about what they wanted to include what was important and what wasn't. And in some cases what what they decided not to put in might tell you as much as what they decided to put in. Yeah certainly that's true for our two I mean we're we're certainly aware that. I mean how do you do a global encyclopedia anyway. You know you know that it's going to be adequate and incomplete. But we really tried to get the advice of people from many places about quite entries should be included. So there are some entries here. For example why for you know burning a number of women that is an issue at in India that isn't as we pick an issue certainly in many western countries but we got examples of things

as we went on and we also contacted. We went visiting to some of the International Women's Studies library including one in the nav Amman and took a look at their indexing system. So we awful used. Indexing System and in libraries international libraries women's libraries to try to get a feel of what we needed to include that maybe wasn't in our knowledge or even the knowledge of the people that we gathered internationally. We're coming to a point where we have just about 12 10 12 minutes left in the program again I want to introduce our guest. We're speaking with Sheriff Kramer A She is the coeditor of a major new reference work that's just come out the Rutledge international encyclopedia of women. It's in four volumes has close to a thousand entries contributed by writers from around the world in a wide range of subjects. And it's if you're interested the book is The

books are available the chances are probably the place wastes place most people will find it isn't in the library because it's it's not inexpensive. But you might want to seek it out and certainly if your library doesn't have it you maybe you want might want to suggest to them that it would be a good thing to add to their collection. Our guest at the moment is a visiting professor for the study a visiting professor for the Center for the study of women in society at the University of Oregon and I'm sure people here in Champaign-Urbana will recognize that she was a faculty member of the University of Illinois for some time. Questions are well welcome if you'd like to give us a call 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 is the champagne or bang. In a number we do also have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We have now several callers So let's start in again here. And for the first caller I think we'll go to Southeastern Illinois line number four.

Hello. Yes three questions one is kind of a comment about the man announcers sort of. What do you call that a chauvinist pig I guess. But then I have motivation and I get talking books and there are also magazines are copying books forms of magazines. And one thing that has really surprised me is the difference in clarity between a man's voice and then the women sports night may be simply the me all generalizations are false. So this could be simply that some of these that are noticing that some of the women's voices are very difficult to understand and that women's voices have to be played at a slower speed in order to be comprehensible I mean that's just the comment I have a couple of questions. And one of the things that are at the very first of the program that intrigued me and I wanted hand drumming and what the why do women do it and what is that I die donors than that. Well. I was giving an example of things that fell through

the cracks in the usual topics of economics education and so on the topics that we thought sort of divided up the knowledge of the world. And so it turns out that that handwriting was something that used to be associated primarily drumming used to be associated primarily with with women and I read a book. When you say drama you're talking about pounding on the derm. Yeah. The old farming and ancient ancient form of the music of sound and initially you know they used to they used to see on. Old bases an archaeological dig they would see a woman they thought well she's holding up a pyre to speak. She's leading a group of people but she's holding up a pyre kick and you know now they know that these were drums and that women were very important in rituals and and in drumming. And that's the kind of knowledge that's been

lost and the woman who wrote the entry on drumming I said Well can you also include in the history but can you also say something about you know the girls drum bands of today and she said Oh I can and I will but she says you know that all comes from military and the introduction of drumming for military reasons back about the 14th century and then it became very very common and popular in the western world for military and then and then it was black jazz players that. Took up made the drama that's. And she says yeah I'll do I'll do this but you know her interest was in and the older history. Well this was a history involving women and found and important rituals that I had no knowledge of before working on this or the Dems about the size of tambourine USAT and in fact that you know some of them came then tambourines they inserted the symbols and so on

but it was it was some of the drums were hand someone used a bone or you know as a as a stick and Chaman on women and men shamans but drumming very very closely associated for the majority of of human history with women. Another question and I wondered you said to some of your their writers of your article is where were activist since by their very nature an activist is. Working for a cause and selling. Was there any review or objectivity in there Are they go to hell as it were any articles reviewed or hours that Dan. Well you know traditionally if I could PD articles have been presented as value free but feminist scholarship you know acknowledges the political importance of our our lives and the politics of the personal. And so.

Certainly they offer values. In this sense. But we are suggesting that all encyclopedias do that. Oh yes you know there's objectivity of course is in the eye of the beholder and one of the critiques is made of traditional encyclopedias that they they haven't been as inclusive as we wanted to try to be like you. Let's talk with some. In Urbana here line number two. Hello. Yes. What a fascinating show you have and I wonder if you know if they exist in the champagne and Urbana library. That is a question I should have known if they're there just out. I know that the university library has a set and I just don't know yet about the public library.

Now maybe I'll call the Urbana library and encourage them to get it. Does it have your name down as the editor. Yes it does it's right major international encyclopedia of women. And yes it does. I have a comment for the previous caller and that is you may find women's voices difficult to understand because he may have spent his whole life listening to men. Though I would suggest that he maybe listen to some women assistant. All right you. Well thank you for the call. Let's go to Aurora for someone else this is line 1. Hello. Hi good morning. Sorry that I missed most to be a program. I had a flat tire which cut my listening time. I think this is a very good. Thing that you're doing. And I have three daughters. And I guess what. What what. I don't know what word to use but I thought with deliberation

supposedly of women in the 60s I feel that things would be different but they aren't. And there are some changes but certainly an awful lot more as we all see to be done. Well I I'm kind of. Disappointed disenchanted. That there wasn't seemingly more done or is being done or do you feel since you're doing this work that more is being done so since the 60s. Well I think that the encyclopedia is sort of uplifting a bit in that sense in that this is based on a course on feminist work feminist scholarship. And there is an amazing amount that you you can read this and you think you know I hadn't thought of it in that way. And yet you know this is based on the work that has been done in the last of the last decade so I think that

it indicates it is both indicates the problem and also that there are some changes. Well when I think of what the women did to get the vote Way back when when did that start exactly it was in the 20s but when did it really start in the 1850s and it took that long and that much I mean the women almost died for the cause. Yeah. Being put in jail and forced bed with tubes of trade cetera. And and yet they still aren't liberated. Yes and that's a global issue. Then our women. Do women have a line is there a program that's on line that if anybody wants to talk to you Are you online. There are chorus Mannie. I mean what's happening with computers and the Internet and women's use of that

is something that that we tried to deal with in the psych P and just indicate the ways that this is being used to connect women have for conversations. For deliberation for debate and for action. Well thank you again. All right thanks. This last issue is something that I know you and Dale Spender both and other women as well. We're very interested in that is getting women involved in information technology and that's really what with Suess all about how what what can you say about. It particularly when it comes to young women and girls whether they're sort of numb in in what sort of numbers they're getting friendly with computers and exploring the possibilities. Computers and Internet both as a means of communication as a way of gathering and exchanging information.

And I learned a great deal about this from women on the campus of the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign campus because working with the with women was one of the major delight of my my life learning a lot and still working with. Some of those women on various projects. And as I get to the other I just want to say that if if this is a global work but if there is a home base for this encyclopedia it is back to campus because there are lots of contributors that come from that that campus. You know for example if you want to look at film criticism Ramona Curry is there and as I said the the women in the library. This reference to searing and in our topic editors and so on. So there is a lot of work that's been done on this and Cyclopedia right on on that campus. Including then the women in with it and all the work that all the interest in what's happening with women online and I think there's a lot that's

happening with women online but globally you know the digital divide is not usually described in terms of for example if there is a computer in a home where who has control of that computer and who's using it for what. There you know it's called the Information Revolution. But it's not having the same impact on on everyone certainly. And we try to deal with a lot of those issues a lot of how of how women access and use is is different and for what reason. You know what this how this information revolution has affected people differently as it always does any revolution affects class gender you know have to have effects people in different ways. Well we'll have to leave it there because we've come to the end of the time when say press crime rate. Thanks very much for being with us today. Thank you. Our guest you're a screamer a is a visiting professor for the Center for the study of women and society at

University of Oregon and is the coeditor along with Dale Spender of the newly published Rutledge international encyclopedia of women are now out in four volumes so you might want to look at at that end if it's not in your local library you can tell them they should have a copy.