Focus 580; Night Draws Near: Iraqs People in the Shadow of Americas War

Good morning this is focused 580 our morning telephone talk show Morning with Jack Brighton. Glad you could listen today. Our producers are Harriet's Williamson and Martha Diehl and our technical director Henry Frayne at the controls American rhetoric refers to the occupation of Iraq as a frontline in the war on terror. But what does the occupation mean to the people of Iraq beyond the voices of official spokespersons we rarely hear the voices of ordinary Iraqi people most affected by the latest nightmare on the ground which is why the latest book by our guest in this hour Anthony Shadid is so compelling Night Draws Near Iraq's People in the shadow of America's war draws from Mr. show deeds reporting for The Washington Post for which he won the Pulitzer Prize in 2004 represents a ground level and very personal view of Iraq as seen by Iraqis from many different walks of life. During this hour focus 588 will talk with Anthony should about the stories in the book and about the ongoing occupation. Conflict in Iraq and the show deed is the Islamic affairs correspondent for The Washington Post and has reported from Iraq since well before the U.S. led war in 2000 and three he is

the only reporter so far to win the Pulitzer for his coverage of Iraq and he is one of very few U.S. reporters to speak Arabic. He reported for The Associated Press in the Boston Globe. Prior to joining the staff of The Washington Post and he has reported from Egypt Lebanon Iraq the Persian Gulf Europe Afghanistan Pakistan Israel and Palestine he was awarded a citation from the Overseas Press Club for a series Islam's challenge which form the core of his first book Legacy of the Prophet despots Democrats and the New Politics of Islam. The book will draw from today Night Draws Near Iraq's People in the shadow of America's war was recently published by Henry Holt. As we talk with Anthony Shadid we welcome your questions you can join us by telephone the number around Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also have a toll free line. Anywhere you hear is around the Midwest if you're listening on the Internet anywhere in the continental U.S. 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 and Anthony Shadid joins us this morning

by telephone. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks so much for your time today. It's a pleasure to be. Well it's a great book. Thank you. It's definitely a very powerful book. I want to ask just start out with you know Americans have read a lot about Iraq hopefully over the past few years but not all Night Draws Near seems to be an intern entirely different kind of reporting. You aren't embedded is the saying goes you're not focusing on official political pronouncements persay or the daily drumbeat of bombings but instead you provide a view of these events through the eyes of ordinary people. You know it was not I tell you was it my ambition going into this to do it that way. To be perfectly honest I have been in Baghdad a couple of times like you mentioned earlier with the A.P. and the Boston Globe. And I arrived in Baghdad itself in March of 2003 a few weeks before the invasion. You know I was there as any other reporter would be I was going to try to see what you know. You know there's one place where the bombs are dropped or someplace where the bombs landed I wanted to see where the bombs landed and

a few days into the war. You know I got advice from my editors which a couple of pieces of advice and it almost might some kind of mundane at this point but one other said listen you're there and you should try to define the story. The other editor had picked up on some of the stuff that I was writing you said you know it's really remarkable what people are talking about what people are saying and you should make a real effort to like try to capture those sentiments try to capture those. Speck of some you know perhaps shed a light on these greater issues going on these issues of religion of war of occupation of siege. Try to capture those arguer those larger issues through the eyes of the people themselves and that I started doing that during the war during the invasion I sometimes mix up those two terms but during the invasion and you know it became it became in the end it's what kind of shape my reporting almost exclusively. And the people I met during the war families and individuals and I stayed with them through the aftermath and I tried to understand the occupation try to understand how these two political cultures intersect in a way through their experiences and you know it was it was a different perspective I think often.

Well and also that you got to see how people's views evolved as time went on. Exactly and I think it's the most powerful thing we can do as reporters is that the kind of retrospective art that the perspective over time and we're so used to writing a you know an 8 and a word story not a word story off one interview and sometimes that's illuminating. I mean I think they can be very powerful at times but what I've what I've struck and I would have had the chance to do in Iraq is is to talk to people over a year or a year and a half and just in to see how those perspectives change how the sentiments change and they often change dramatically and those changes them. It's less what they're saying and perhaps more what's changing about what they're saying that tells us the most about what's going on. You strikes me over and over while reading your book how different our view is from those of the people in Iraq. Americans seem to have the. Snapshot view of Iraq under the tyrant Saddam Hussein about the Iraqi view extends from their suffering in recent years under Saddam back thousands of years of history and much of that history was. Baghdad is that really the greatest history the greatest city in the world united and it's a powerful memory.

It's you know I've always been struck the Baghdad I mean I think especially to Arabs even Arab-Americans Baghdad is you know often it's more a it's more an idea than a reality. I mean there is the city of Baghdad today which is a city has this somewhat ordinary in a lot of ways it's listeners these days is dominated by concrete and barbed wire but you know I think what more powerful to most people is what the word suggests and the word does it just like you said this incredible history a history that stretches back hundreds of years of centuries and you know and marked of a certain moment of civilization it was this flowering of culture a following of ideas and the self-confidence of culture that's not all that apparent. I think in the Arab world and you know one when Baghdad was was wrecked I think in the looting and those and the lawlessness that followed Saddam's fall it was a painful moment for a lot of Baghdadi's they were watching not you know not what would happen in any city in Iraq but they were happening they were watching you know and what kind of a the smearing of an idea you know a tarnishing an idea that that was an idea and here this is its fate. It was a very complete fluke bleak fate.

Well you know this is probably the part of the interview where we talk about how bad Saddam was and probably the most salient ground we can cover is how great things were actually going in Iraq in the 1970s before he basically ruined everything. Exactly and I think that you know when we talk about this kind of distant past when Baghdad was it was the center of the world a lot of ways. There was a it was a pair of very very pale imitate. But there was a certain exuberance that they kind of mimic that in the 1700s when oil prices skyrocketed and revenue just started pouring into the country in the 1970s Iraq had I forget the exact exact comparison but it was a GDP or a living standard close to some of the poorer countries in Europe. There was a there was reform going on there was there was a growing middle class there was you know a foreigner of culture of education intellectual from the rest there of what would come to Iraq to. You know what Have a great time and then today also there was a kind of an exchange of ideas especially as Beirut which had traditionally been kind of the cosmopolitan center of the Arab world was you know torn by civil war. You know Baghdad emerges and as another capitals on the cultural capital and you know of course that was followed you

know the end of the decade mark the final ascent of Saddam. So a lot of the people you spoke with did you know they were alive in the 70s they remember these times in sort of you know perhaps that their hopes were suppressed to say the least under Saddam but they still had that idea of what a great place Baghdad could be what Iraq could be. And so at least the he had the aspiration or expectation that if things could change. Change then that could be the case again. You know that's a good point to like you know to kind of understand how people think today I mean I've struck so often in the conversations of him or you know she had said that I became close to during the invasion and stayed in touch with her and the aftermath you know Americans that often I think American ministration in Iraq would often make the comparison. Electricity is back to what it was before the invasion. That was their comparison it was kind of there so they're they're they're they're measuring stick that wasn't the measuring stick that most Iraqis were using they were using their comparison was to the 1970s was to this period you know it wasn't oh we're going to get back to what we had under Saddam is going to be that we're going to go back to what

we had maybe a generation earlier when Iraq really was about to enter you know into the first world in a way in the modern world and stake his claim as a leader of that region at least. Well you were reporting before the the occupation invasion war. Whatever we call it you know I want to ask you to talk a bit about the range of views of the people that you were in touch with before the invasion obviously you found a range of views but some were more hopeful and everyone seemed to have some expectations about what America would do you know before the invasion itself. Giving out a kind of a there's a there's one that really struck me in reporting often and that's I think you know there's such a notion I think in this country that we take OK we take over Iraq in a way we build a new country a country to serve as a beacon to the rest of the region and I think we never appreciated a certain level what a record gone through after this this period the 1970s I mean you know it's it's breathtaking in a way. I mean you know for me as a reporter to look back at this as more recent history a decade of war eight years of war with Iran in the

1980s that left a million dead and wounded on both sides and 1990s as you know it began with another war was followed by a decade of sanctions that basically wiped out the middle class and crippled the infrastructure there. And of course there was Saddam's tyranny over this this period. I mean it's kind of breathtaking to see the scars that were left in this 20 year period the country is brutalized was traumatized and the country that we inherited was not a blank slate as it is a country with a lot of Craven's resentments frustrations and hopes and like you pointed out there were. There were a range of opinions before before the invasion. You know I didn't hear the word liberation used all that often before the invasion now. Was that because Saddam was still in power and you couldn't speak freely I think there was part of it but as I think there was a deep sense of fear and anxiety about what was going to be ahead. I mean I think Iraqis knew very well that that looting would follow Saddam's fall and there was a run on gun stores. Those weeks before before American tanks ever entered Iraq

they were buying guns to defend themselves against Americans or guns of themselves against each other. I mean people running to very very conscious of what was ahead. And it also kind of explains I guess you know if you take a look at it from a little bit different perspective it explains this kind of tortured relationship with the United States. I think it had a certain level I mean you know I think was often cast. Fear that it was Saddam against his people and that we were against Saddam. I guess what struck me you know in talking to people and you know going through my own process of trying to understand the reason was that it was often cast in terms of Saddam and the United States against the Iraqi people. You know what I mean by that it's you know people look to U.S. support for Saddam in the 1980s in the war against Iran. They looked at the U.S. role in keeping sanctions in place religious Shiites remember that the U.S. abandoned the uprising. She had uprising against Saddam the fall of the 1991 Gulf War. I mean it's very complicated relationship and there was a lot of baggage there and you know Americans they didn't just enter as liberators they entered with

this 20 year history that complicated the picture. Yeah. Well let me just mention again we're talking. This morning with Anthony Shadid He's a reporter for The Washington Post we're talking about his book Night Draws Near Iraq's People in the shadow of America's war. You can join the conversation by calling us around Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free elsewhere. 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. Some of the people you spoke with there was a Dr. Mousseau Muhammad who essentially was very skeptical and there was another Sunni former diplomat for Iraq's Aida. I'm not mangling the pronunciation of his name. Who is more optimistic. And in fact the Iraq was was almost gleeful at the idea of you know liberation from Saddam. And whereas Fawad was I think more of the view you know if they're liberators great but if they're occupiers. Then you know there's going to be trouble.

Yeah that's exactly right and there was such to it suggesting that I met most of both of them during the invasion was actually. Who was the one those most optimistic I remember walking into his house. I mean this is the very end of the war the invasion and invasion was pretty pretty bloody then. Sitting in his apartment electricity got by that point and he was sitting in the dark. You can hear the thunder of artillery outside and he was just smiling. He was just you know he squishes he was anticipating the moment he was ready for Saddam to be done when he's ready for the Americans to arrive and he was in a lot of ways the person I think the kind of Iraqi that most Americans would hope to meet in Iraq. He thought this is going to be a return to what he had a long time ago to what he had 20 30 years ago. And as you mentioned it was the opposite photo I saw with him of his family having lunch during the invasion and the conversation was much different and it also kind of handed to me that there was a lot more gray there than black and white about the invasion about the fall of Saddam. You know it was very bloody hated Saddam that Saddam caused all kinds of catastrophes for the country. But that didn't mean that he was. Welcome the Americans. He did admit he wanted to have his country occupied.

What's so interesting about these two men is that they did start out at such different points I mean you couldn't I mean. They really didn't see eye to eye on the stuff and that as the year passed and as the months passed and as things didn't get better as there are still tons of electricity as the insurgency began is this crime you know was rampant still on the streets of Baghdad. They began to intersect and their opinions and I reached a point I remember last year when I was talking to fly out and he said something to me he said you know it is in these times of trouble people have short memories I'm not quoting exactly was something along those lines people people tend to forget. And I went over to full house soon after in the office of the exact same thing to me and it really struck me I mean I think it's just it sounds kind of obvious to us you know that people tend to forget that. But what it said to me I guess as a reporter and I try to make sense of it all is that you know it's not it wasn't about Saddam anymore. It was about what they had today in Iraq and that these challenges of daily life have become so overwhelming it becomes suffocating in a way that that complicated everything else that was going on.

Well and see I got the two confused already so maybe that sort of illustrates our problem in understanding the war Dave. Right. Well we do have a call to talk with let's include him in a conversation. This is someone in Charleston online before. Good morning. Thank you very much. Something you said earlier about the perspective of your book. First of the embedded reporters and so on. Something about looking at things not from the standpoint of both people dropping the bombs but the people on whom the bombs were falling. I've heard something similar to used to describe the perspective of Al-Jazeera for the Arabic speaking world through though what the rest of it is is there any way you could meaningfully compare. You're a prospect who wrote something similar to what Al-Jazeera does in terms of what you wanted that to do. You know it's interesting question Al-Jazeera is so important and I and a lot of the I think is important as well the two main Arabic satellite channels and I you know I and I admire the

reporters and a lot of ways I think they're very brave reporters in Iraq and they do. They do work that I think sometimes we're reluctant to do which is you know going to camera inside solutions sometimes and and all of them killed because of that and so I do have a lot of admiration for them. You know if we talk about the kind of style of reporting and the approach to the reporting it's hard for me to compare what I was trying to do and they're doing it because the audiences are so different I mean I was very much writing for an American audience and says it is not it's very much a product testing front. Audience You know the one thing that kind of strikes me as a little bit. Well this isn't a similarity I guess it's more that you know Al-Jazeera does have this ambition to put forth another perspective. I mean that's almost its reason for being is to is to put forth a perspective that might not be there in the Western media. You know if you can say that what I was trying to write about was a different perspective a perspective that wasn't out there I guess in that sense there might be kind of a similarity but you know I think the audience probably dictates the differences more and that the audiences are so vastly different that while some things about the SOB reporting might be similar. The

stories that actually result of the product itself is just. It is that's a different. Question. Brian thank you. Thanks so much for the call. Another Color Line number one somewhere in Champagne County next. Good morning. Hi if you know of the phone I think this was covered on the world yesterday the guy that was featured in control room who with some military correspondence going to work for Al Jazeera English language. Yeah you know I don't know him. I knew I saw control room in the documentary So it's similar with what he was doing in it and I heard that he was working for Al Jazeera and I think it's going to be an interesting project. Is it in English. Be interesting to see what you know what kind of reception it gets. Right. Yeah I heard you on a couple of the shows and you didn't use that of Arabic that sort of swagger like a Baghdad Walk Like An Egyptian or something. I think that's salient actually

that this show where Brock the Howard features in their mind and they went from being a medical center to being you know case where they didn't even have aspirin. You know there was a you pointed out there was a word there is a word in Arabic to that. Which means in a way to swagger and show off you know and it's a word that strong from the name of the city the idea of what the city once was and again you know I think when we talk about Baghdad and what it means to the Arab world or what it means to the Muslim world for that matter it is you know like I said it is more an idea than a reality and I think that idea remains powerful and when I think you know it's not. You know I remember a friend of mine an Egyptian friend who was rooming with me during the invasion and he said you know you know when we were talking about the fall of Saddam and how he felt about it it wasn't you know anger it wasn't joy it is more kind of regret in a way you know and it wasn't that because it wasn't that. You know Riyadh had fallen in Doha the cities that are much more modern much more recent was the fact that it's fallen and you know a city was conquered the name of its liberation and the conquest as a conquest

and you know in a city of such kind of such a history of such residents it does it does. If you pause. I wanted to applaud your idea of looking at the history particularly from the Arab mind and particularly the Iraqis. You know it's somehow easy for Americans to get that you know we were using that around Iraq battle you know shipping arms to one side secretly and giving intelligence targeting information to the other side and we're playing them off you know the famous expression by Kissinger when they cut off the Kurds for maybe the second time. Don't confuse covert action with missionary work once thousands of Kurds died because they were no longer needed to bleed. Was it Iraq around that time I can't remember if they did they'd struck a deal right. Right. Iraq 73 oversight of Arab. So you know that you know people in this country just don't have any sense of that but. But a lot of

Iraqis know I mean there's this youthful population so many maybe don't know but I don't know what to make of it that seems to me that it's interesting to note that. A satirical or comedy show in America. Arrested Development featured the image of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand the specimen they suppose that writes Yeah right there the part of a plot line on you can cut me off because I certainly am there. Aggressive but it certainly shows the history part of the part line is that the picture of the family was making a deal to build housing for Saddam to violate the sanctions and they said something like well that it's a career ender. Do that and say well not in all cases and they flashed a picture of Rumsfeld on screen shaking his hand of brotherhood So I think you are a leader on that note I think it's a good point and I think this is something that the United States has such a difficulty. It's one of the reasons for the difficulty in Iraq is that I mean let's face it when we look at the policy over the past 23 years there hasn't always been a lot of principle involved I think you make a point about the Iran-Iraq war

which is it is a good one and I think a lot of Iraqis do think that Saddam would've lasted as long as he did without US support for the war there. And so you know what we now call We're now you know talking about these principles of democracy of liberation of freedom of individual rights and but there is a record that we have to take into account in the past and I think you know companies arise and mention this record in an address to in Cairo. She made this point that we had made mistakes in the past we maybe didn't get our priorities straight but that doesn't mean that these these are the confusion these conflicts or contradictions are going to go away overnight I mean it still does shadow this perception of American intentions to a great degree and especially in Iraq a country that has you know whose history has often been steered by those by those policies. There are so many great stories and insights in them. Book and we're only going to hit on some of the high points one of the things I wanted to ask you to talk about is you know this whole issue of misperception which I think pervades the entire entire story.

And when we speak of we're bringing democracy to the Middle East or you know we're the official rhetoric sort of defines how the spin has to make things look so we get these snapshots that you know say well you know the Rockies are going to greet us with roses you know at our feet and so forth and and so you know there have to be some pictures of that but in their hand there are other pictures that don't get in the frame and. Then you speak with people there was one one story you wrote about you went on patrol with what you call. Exum Washington Post he was with the soldiers the American soldiers on patrol as they were patrolling very dangerous areas. Believe in Baghdad and you were sort of you know trailing behind and speaking with people on the side and the perceptions at the front line and from where you stood were very very very different. You know I didn't even know what to make of that story Tom Ricks a colleague of mine at The Washington Post a truly great journalist was and had just come up to me the day before and said you know I'm going to idea for a story why don't

I go with the soldiers on patrol through this neighborhood called Got Milk and then you fall behind to see what people say let's see if we can do a kind of a you know a troll from two different perspectives and you know my question is Why not. So we went out that day and it was remote it was probably one of those illuminating moments I think I had as a as a reporter in Iraq and I wasn't hearing what the American soldiers were saying but I was hearing very clearly what the Iraqis were saying as I followed behind. You know there was a you know there was there were people who saw this as a liberation there's no question about that. And in that street that day there were there were people who said I would have a brother have a dog rule this country that have Saddam rule it. There are people who saw the soldiers there as bringing a sense of security especially in this aftermath of lawlessness and looting that it had kind of wrecked the city. But I guess more often I heard of ambivalence and even anger and resentment that this was an occupation and occupation means something different in English than it does in Arabic. There's just no question I think occupation I'll often suggest to us and English Japan and Germany after World War 2

occupation and Arabic means something very different and it's often suggest Israel and Palestine or it suggest the British in Iraq after World War 1 and people and this one guy remember this one guy standing there time it was it was hot outside the sun was was just unrelenting. And he said it's like they're walking over my heart. It's like they're crushing my heart and you know that really struck me right there that you know how great this was it wasn't black and white it was very gray and it was a sense this is right the very beginning of the insurgency but it was a sense of how sentiments could build toward you know a more violent campaign against the presence of the of the U.S. military there the soldier was still you're calling these people love. 90 percent of them love us. And it was a weird moment I didn't actually describe the song all that much in the book but you know it was. Because those soldiers were well-intentioned you know they believe they were doing and they were they were they were they were principled I mean I you know I didn't I didn't doubt their their intentions and we got together with them afterwards Tom and I didn't We're talking to them and they wanted to know what I had heard and I told them

you know when those months were you know you can almost see that their feelings were hurt that they didn't understand that and you know the Muslim didn't believe me either but. But it was one of those you know you just thought it struck you so clearly how so often in Iraq two languages are being spoken. Obviously it's English in Arabic but you know at a deeper level there's two sets of a cab there is two sets of ideas two sets of memories of histories of it goes on and on and you know often they don't intersect often they actually collide. Will pass or mid point during this hour focused on a video with Anthony Show deed. Well he won the Pulitzer Prize last year for his reporting from Iraq. He's the author of the book we're discussing Night Draws Near Iraq's People in the shadow of America's War published just recently by Henry Holt. And we welcome your questions if you'd like to join us around Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free anywhere you hear us 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. I want to also talk with you about their reactions to American attempts

to put down the resistance. Unfortunately innocent people come into the line of fire and in many cases houses are raided by troops looking for insurgents. And in the process you know many people are you know essentially see this well at least many Iraqi people who are essentially having their had their doors. You know knocked down by troops is as humiliation whereas the American military undoubtedly saw it and sees it as necessary from a security standpoint. Right I think that's you know that's again it's one of those things where you almost certain things feel inevitable in a way that how that that thing unfolds you know that there is just a certain relationship the power of those with time goes without power and that friction and tension and conflict arises out of that I mean you know time to get a member those of us in 2003 when we could report and the lives of a lot of freedom actually kind of almost you know unencumbered we can report you know unencumbered and and these towns in western Iraq the most conservative in traditional towns of the country that were you know populated by Sunni

Arabs who from where the insurgency is is predominately drawn. And it was these just these tiny slights that turned into huge grievances the turn the provocation. It turned into you know and out of the last months and months and months and you know I don't know. It's more going to this one village of heat and it's probably the first spontaneous uprising have occurred against the presence of U.S. troops and. You know the provocations were so were things that we wouldn't even probably even you know they were they thought the helicopters were spying on them as they as they slept on the roof. That soldiers would enter the rooms of women without the men present. They'd confiscate guns that every Iraqi felt he was entitled to. You know they're not not in themselves are not huge things but they they did become vegan and they were reflected through this lens that we've been talking about a little bit these the sons of mistrust and of a little bit of confusion and not clear what the Americans are really up to the

you know the grew fiercer and fiercer until I think we we had all we have today. Our lines are full Let's go. Let's talk some more listeners will go next to someone in Monticello line number one. Good morning. Yeah thanks for taking my call. I just this is just a general comment that really has nothing to do with what you're saying but it third doesn't know what it is that had all these problems with CNN saying that all these thousands of people were killed in the in the hurricane you know I have a real trouble now believing anything that the media has put on anything about the war in the Hurricanes anything and we got this pay push mentality that anything is wrong it is Bush's fault. And you know I'm really getting tired of all this and I think we need to go back to where we're actually reporting facts and you know again I think that you're a rock or punk or anything going to say everybody in the media has a total credibility problem

now and I mean. No I don't rather know whether to believe you or not. You know everything that you tell is that your interpretation out there and I don't know you know what your plan is political. You know you can be whatever you want to be that's fine but you know if you're not reporting the facts accurate or truthful because you have you know some kind of problem with somebody. I mean I don't know that and I just get to the point where I just say I don't believe you. Yeah you know I think it's I think you know I think you should be critical of what we report. I don't I don't think there is I think a more skepticism out there the more you know you hear something you're not sure if it's true much like you know over here you know I think that's important. And I make a claim that we that you know Truth is an elusive concept in Iraq these days let's face it and when you say reporting the facts you know. Facts are often interpreted facts are often come from different perspectives and one fact is you know somebody else's slant. And that you know what come of that. That's all that's happened to me all the time as a reporter I you know I wouldn't claim that what I was doing in Iraq was

the only thing that people should have read the opposite. I mean I think we should have you know as many perspectives out there as possible. I do think that the fact is it is a malleable term. I think it's difficult to sit and you can just report the facts in Iraq what kind of facts you're going to report we're going to report those facts according to who are the structure to come from I mean it becomes kind of confusing but you know what I try to do is understand what people are saying and I try to let them say it. You know it wasn't my job to tell them what to say or to ask them the questions or try to lead them in a certain direction I just wanted to hear these conversations of what people said and then report it you know and and I was trying to make a point that this isn't necessarily representative it was in the Sara Lee thing that everybody was saying but is what these people are saying. And if we listen to these people at least know what's being said here at this time at this moment in this place and you know the more we listen for the better we understand what's going on. Well I hope that helps that point. We'll go next to our panelists or Lie number two. Good morning. Thanks very much. I just wondered if you could comment on how the impact of the grab and the prisoner abuse scandal what kind of reactions you heard to that and more generally

the detaining of people and the conditions under which they're kept in Iraq. Thank you thank you. It's a good question and you know this is going to be a weird answer probably and I want to put this I want to be careful I put this. I think I will have a bigger impact in the Arab world in some ways than it did in Iraq and what I mean by that is I think that there's a lot of anger in the Arab world about U.S. policy and I think what happened in Abu Ghraib kind of you know solidified people's opinions and much of their overall about what the Americans were up to kind of fit into this perception and it had a more you know more credence to this perception in Iraq it was a little bit different I think you know. I think the people who were mad at who knew that these bad things were going on they this is this is an example of it. And this is what the Americans are to this is you know this is sort of the way the way was seen in the rest of the Arab world. I think it was also a sense that you know. There's been a long history of torture and mistreatment in Iraq and you know Saddam did that if you will for

Saddam did it and maybe that you know maybe it wasn't as much surprise about the torture itself but that the Americans were in a long line of people who had mistreated people in that country that makes any sense at all. And it's not very. Black and white but it just was kind of a complicated reaction to and I think when you talk about the arrests I'll tell you that's an explosive issue and it's probably having more of it. I mean I know they intersect a little bit but I think the arrests themselves are more important perhaps than what happened and I'm afraid I don't minimize what happened I'm very concerned said it was sometimes a kind of a complicated reaction to it. But these arrests are huge because often relatives of people be arrested kind of held as you know is what we call ransom or you know try to get some to turn themselves out. They're often held without charge. People don't know where they are at this and we're going up with thousands of people. I think numbers 14000 15000 people who are being held and we're you know what a colleague and I did a survey at Camp Buka the second biggest prison in southern Iraq. You know and even the commandant there the commander the

American commander I think you've knowledge that one in four are probably innocent 25 percent of people they're probably innocent which is kind of spectacular when you think about it when you think of the families of those innocent in the anger that creates I mean I think it is it's a much bigger deal than we probably have probably explained as reporters. Well I'm glad the caller asked about Abu Ghraib because the book ends before we get to that point the photos were revealed and so forth. There are so many. There are episodes that you cover in the book but you know maybe. I'm sure you want to hear your writing has continued on obviously and you're going back to Iraq I believe next week. Right I've been there for most of the year I spent some time in Egypt and Syria on the Gulf but I'm going back next week for the referendum. Yeah. Well hopefully we can talk about that as well but our lines are full so I want to go on to another listener one number three in Urbana. Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. Local TV commentator on one of the television stations Mark Hyman says that stories about positive interaction between U.S. troops and Iraqi people are

being ignored by the three main broadcast networks and CNN. What is your comment on that assertion. You know I guess that question has been asked a lot as I've been talking about the fog. I don't quite get it. To be honest I you know my job as a reporter is not to look at good news and bad news just to understand what's going on and you know. Granted you know. I have put this in trying to put this politely as possible. So go ahead. There's not a lot of good news right now. And I you know I think if we see what's going on in Iraq it has been a steady deterioration and there have been moments where I've seen things that have been going really well in the given example in Sadr City for instance which is a sprawling very poor neighborhood in Baghdad two or three million people there it's probably 300 million dollars into that neighborhood and it's remarkable there are changes there. But here again is how it gets complicated so if you ask people and I did a story about this it is a story about the work that was going into this neighborhood when you ask people

in the neighborhood who who do you credit for this this will accredit the cleric at the mosque for helping fix the streets and so it's just get so complicated at times and you know I think there is some there are projects going on I think most of the money now is being diverted toward the security forces and toward fighting the insurgency so you're seeing less reconstruction you might have seen before. But I don't think that comes up in conversations that I have with Iraqis that want to Rocky and I honestly not want to record I've talked to as much in a school being painted or something like that and you know maybe if you're not using it it is not fair I mean I'm talking the wrong people. And I freely acknowledge that but it's just not something that I that has come up so much that I feel as a reporter I need to jump on it because it's shaping the country today. Like that guy from Monticello I trust what you say. Thank you. OK thanks for the call. Well let's go on and talk with more listeners into Next up someone Number four inch. Good morning. Good morning. I'm not sure if you spoke about this. I'm interested in what's happening in the southern portion in Basura

to America. Two American reporters have been assassinated so far Steven Vincent and another gentleman with the New York Times. And it seems like even if we get quote unquote our democracy it might take the form of government that they have in southern in the southern portion which seems to be even more strict than in Iran even. And I don't see a lot of people talking about this in in the news media not about the fascinations of the of the two reporters or even the trouble that the British are having. And another thing I don't see peace. We're talking about the fact that my father if again the federalization process too and no one seems to talk about what's going to happen if he joins with the loonies in in defeating the Constitution the proposed constitution. So if you could if you have any insight on that. How did the situation in the south develop that way how did it become under the control of of these militias and how

they seem to be infiltrated to lead the police force. They're great questions in fact if you get a chance I don't know if it's on the website or not but a colleague of mine and I did a couple of pieces on this on those very questions and in the past I guess and we've been in August. I don't know if they're still on the website or not but we also we talked about. I do view some solder in his kind of rising influence and also we did a very long piece about what was going on in sort southern Iraq and northern Iraq I think you bring up a really important point of what's shaping Iraq today and that is you know I was in bus for a few weeks ago and it was the most scared I've ever been as a reporter in the past two or three years in Iraq because you have a phenomenon there where the militias the militias I mean just basically Army Little's Assad or most other Shiite parties have infiltrated the security forces. Where I think at this point safe to say majority of the police are loyal to these parties. There is no accountability. They have their own agendas and they're the people that are carrying out the assassinations I was I was so scared because I mean you you walk in the street and you see a police officer and you don't know if he's there to protect you or to kill you.

And. You know it's us why it happened this way I think there was an. You know I think you get too much authority on this because the British Sure sometimes they don't talk about this all that much but there was a beginning in the beginning they had to reconstitute the security forces and they relied on the parties the Islamic parties there to reconstitute those forces. It was a short term solution to the fact a vacuum of authority that was going on there. Now we're starting to see the long term implications of that which is the militias have the guns and they're the only ones with the guns and they're the ones you know Iraq is increasingly being ruled by like so the south is being ruled by men with guns. I don't see it getting better and I think I think it's a maybe a maybe a look and I want to be bleak but I think there is a little bit of inside of what might be ahead here and that is you know it's not necessarily a struggle or a conflict that pits Sunni against Shiites against Kurds but it may be more militias rivalries within the communities for instance like rival Shiite militias battling for power in places like Basra that increasingly shapes things and that regional Lisa maybe in other

parts of the country. I just have one more question because you raise something about the British which we already know is the problem with the United States there with no plan. Once we get there. Yeah I am. I guess my question. If there was no plan once they got there why didn't they plan to get out very quickly. In fact when the Iraqis want them to get out which was about April since they had no plan for any type of occupation. Well I think they did plan to get out early and then realized they couldn't and that was you know part of the planning. I mean I you know the British were a little bit different than the Americans the rich were much less aggressive in a way than the Americans were in Iraq and I think the British kind of you know hung back in Basra. You know basically said if you don't kill us women get too much in the way of places become much more violent as you pointed out so that I think you're right I think you make the point that you know we saw this you know I look back at the reform of the war the effect of the aftermath and I think this is often cast the centerpiece of this entire thing was often

cast as the fall of Saddam. We're going to overthrow Saddam's government the centerpiece wasn't what followed. But I think what we've seen in the past years that indeed this is the centerpiece the insurgency the occupation these issues that we're dealing with now are the centerpiece of this entire project. And part of me and I may be wrong and I'm really better predictions. But part of me worries that we're just seeing the preamble of something that is bigger something that that is taking shape in my view they're going to what we're seeing now are ones remain full and I want to get on to some more calls but there's one there's one thing that sort of jumps out as you as you look at what has happened over the past couple years in Iraq with the insert. NC It is seems that the point of the insurgency is not to win militarily because they really can't but simply to dash America's hopes for success. I think that's you know that and I was I had that insight. I mean it struck me. Partly that struck me as as I was standing and cover a lot and I think it's February of 2004 and there was a series of suicide bombs that just is unbelievable carnage and it was the

worst carnage in Iraq. To that point there have been worse episodes since then that at that point I think it was the worse and it just struck me that the only point of these attacks was to create a spectacle. And what do the insurgents that one current There's a few you know some currents within the insurgency understood that the only way to defeat the Americans was to create this perception of failure and you create perception of failure through their anarchy and chaos and disorder through spectacles. And that's what these attacks have become a specter. Listen if you created I expect a call you have to keep killing more people and more people. You know 20 people dead in a car bomb in 2003 was a banner headline in The Washington Post and you know today it's a quiet quiet damn Baghdad and I'm the spectacle of some growing and people keep dying to create this spectacle. Well I want to talk with some more listeners Next up sooner Banna line number one. Good morning. Yeah good morning. I think for me our idea of democracy is really one where we never really have to have a corrupt media corrupt election which kind of lead to rule

by the rich which read my question Are Iraqis familiar with the idea that like Jim Hightower would say Congress is the best Congress money can buy. And what is the attitude toward plutocracy especially given the way the show's been a lot of his wealth on these palatial estate. I think there is a lot of suspicion a kind of distrust about that I mean you know corruption is rampant and in Iraq these days and it's often carried out by these parties to kind of return to Iraq after the fall of Saddam and people know that he will talk about that a lot. You can't get a job in the bureaucracy without a recommendation from the party to get a job as a police officer without a recommendation from the party. And often those recommendations cost money I think there is a kind of a disgust with the level of corruption that you know is face of the guy. The government has been constituted now doesn't have a lot of credibility. It's ineffective on one hand into it so riven by these divisions and I think what a lot of people would describe as self-interested. It doesn't it doesn't. It's doesn't make a big

impression I think on most people's lives but you know it's again I think that this real quick and I know there's a lot of callers but you know I think we talk a lot about democracy and I just it's not a big part of the conversation that I have in Iraq at least a bigger part of the conversation is how do you get through these challenges of everyday life which are so overwhelming violence lack of electricity the carnage so lack of water lack of income these things are just so overwhelming that no memories of this but I mean I think you know politics sometimes can become an indulgence. We'll go next to someone champagne one number two. Good morning. I have satellite station. Then the difference I noticed between the broadcasting particularly with the fall of Saddam Hussein actually with that the American media would show it up close and they would show the Yaki rejoicing. But what they thought on Al-Jazeera and how they're going to be they handed out and

many more people crying really gentleman said that if that day for you Iraq and it really showed just how how different the proc out of the war and the Arab station birth is. The American media. Which do you believe that close to the reality in terms of how Iraq the war the conflict that's going Odd how they end up on the radio. Thank you thank you. You know I spent a lot of time working on that part of the book actually I mean it's not it's a huge part of the book it's the end of a chapter at the end of the invasion but describing that scene because I think you know it was a scene that was sometimes. Interpreted in different ways and I think you're right. My biggest mistake as a reporter I think I think it's that if you get a chance to cure is your impression of how to treat in the book but I think as a reporter that day in Baghdad I didn't I didn't make enough of a point of the size of the crowd and I regret that I think it was a mistake because I think you're right the crowd was not that

big. And I think what I did get right if I can if I can say that looking back on those stories is that I captured the ambivalence that was there there was jubilation. I mean there's just no question there was jubilation over Saddam's fall he was unpopular. He was loathed by many people. There was relief about the war ending but the invasion ended and people you know I think a lot of people thought well it's over. Of course it's not over it's still going on but at that point I think people are just relieved that they were going to die and I felt powerfully that day and I think would you kind of mentioned some of the images that that was December of once you know let's see what the Americans are going to do. You know let's see what they're up to I'm not sure what their intentions exactly are. And also that ambivalence over the prospect of an occupation people felt that. I mean it's it's a proud country. You know people in you know I don't. You can embody you know what happen heard in fact. Maybe not on that day but I think as in the days that followed was less in the months that followed. Was this desire on the part of Iraqis that they had liberated themselves that they themselves had overthrown Saddam instead of a foreign army coming in to do it. We have just about three minutes left in which want to squeeze in at least one more caller one number three in Champaign. Good

morning. Hi exist when you are right. Reckon about doors being broken down. Take away people being thrown into jail and it's no no just cause a lot of innocent people in jail. Why did why is it so hard for Americans to understand what this does to a person in a society if they just would think well how would you feel if this was happening in this country you know thinking why is it so difficult for Americans to understand that it's just a basic human love. I just so kid you know if I can just take a moment. I tell you I've. It's interesting since so much time in Baghdad so it's kind of strange for me sometimes to come back to the United States and to hear that to hear the debate here you know rather than scared of seeing it up close. There are you know I am struck by and I you know prized more as a just as individual and as a reporter here but it is this kind of desire among a lot of people to make

what they're seeing fit what they already believe and I don't quite understand that because it's you know as a reporter you try to just if you see and try to appreciate understand that you've got to be very careful about not letting your for if you're not trying to make things fit into what you've already what it already believe that I know I do not employ more than I remember in the past. That as people see things they try to make them fit and they often don't set and I think that's what Iraq is all about is that I consider it's not black and white it's very gray. That's kind of a side of you answer question. Well I think it's all we can experience specked we literally have about a minute I have two minutes left in the cost constitutional referendum is coming up in about two weeks. And no you don't. Want to get predictions but I guess I'm wondering you know what your take is on the importance of this moment in you know for the for the coming year years in Iraq. Yeah I think you know I don't know what to expect. I don't I think it's probably going to be seen more as a as a marker than as a as a turning point as in other

words it's going to show that deepening and hardening of lines between the sects and ethnicities in Iraq rather than a way for two more stable Iraq because that's just fine. That's my sense. OK. Well we're going to have to leave it there and there's much more that we certainly could talk about because the book is full of just fascinating stories. The book is Night Draws Near Iraq's People in the shadow of America's war recently published by Henry Holt and the author has been our guest Anthony Shadid. SH A D id who is a reporter for The Washington Post and who won the Pulitzer Prize last year for his reporting from Iraq. Anthony Shadid thank you so much for talking with us. My pleasure enjoyed it.