Focus 580; Postwar Bosnia-Herzegovina

In this first part of the program we'll be talking with the journalist from Bosnia. And we'll be talking a little bit about what has been happening in his country Bosnia-Herzegovina over the last couple of years as you may recall between 1992 and 1995 there was a war there. More than 200000 people died another two million lost their homes. The fighting officially ended in 1995 with the Dayton Peace Accord however the country has yet to recover from the war. Unemployment there is high the economy is stagnant and some ethnic tensions do remain. We'll talk a little bit about try to talk about what has been going on there recently and also talk about the media and Bosnia and the role that it plays. And we certainly would be happy to have questions or comments as the director of the Press Council of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It's an organization that deals with complaints from the public about newspapers and magazines. He is here visiting the campus of the University of Illinois to to talk about journalism in this country and how it's carried out. And we're pleased that he could spend some time talking

with us. Questions and comments of course are welcome from people who are listening. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Well thanks very much for being here. Thank you for inviting me. Tell us a little bit more about yourself and I I don't have a whole lot of background about you. Particularly I guess I'm interested in how it is that you got involved in journalism. It was a pure accident that started turning from Great Britain when I was spending four years during the war. Friends of mine who run the private. Weekly the most influential Wrigley invited me to become part of the team. Spend with say five and a half years with them and decide later that it's more than enough. And I actually decided to accept the position of the writer through the press secretary and just so people are clear during during the time that the war was going on you and your family left not in the beginning of the first series been through so we were unlikely we have to have an opportunity to leave the country and be certain that it was something of a woman in the UK.

And this is I think the organization that you work for is is interesting and unique. I don't know how many places have them. There is no there is no equivalent organization in the United States. There is three of them actually. Well then there are that I wasn't aware of their existence. You got us going through the thought that I would say about the eight years old. And you have a local running and you have one soon in Washington D.C.. I don't know. Why do you I mean it's only three of them in Europe in the almost each country except the friends you can find one. So what it what exactly is the role of the sort I mean the one that you're involved in what's its role in the press. It is the recorded self-regulate anybody means you to accept the complaints from the mint public regarding the newspapers and magazines and that's one side of the story the second one is in the same turned out serving to protect the interests of the journalist and the thought if some some pressure or some threats

OK. I mean some of these are them so they are trying to protect that the council is composed of member of the Council six of them a journalist and I think there's six of them are public members like Professor judges. I mean decent people and they have international chairman. So the basic idea is to prevent the government to introduce some regulation of the Indymedia Department. Just the two other people to from the papers to organize themselves and say to behave properly in the end for the sake to prevent some some law happening in the in the Bo's'n they're going to go to the media. And is it also the idea that if someone read something in a newspaper or someone does a story and they feel that it's that it's an accurate that there's some problem with it they can go to this organization and say this reporter wrote this and it's it's not right.

Basically there are three levels of the operation that was going to firstly if you. Feel offended by the writing of the newspaper you should go on speak directly to the editor. If it's failed then you write to us and we are throwing to the mega sheet between you and the and the editor. If that doesn't happen then there is a grand council meeting five or six of them per year. When the council members deciding who is wrong who is right. But basically there isn't one thing it's in this policy the only thing the council can do is I mean make some public statement send our decision to the people in Muslim to do that. But you can punish anybody become thank you license them for fine you financially. I mean you don't like to do that. I can mention there would be a lot of stories where there was more than one way of looking at things. There are many cases where you can actually there is a story where there has been a complaint and you can say well there's something here that's flat out wrong or is it more the case that you have one set of people who look at it one way and one set of

people who look at it another way and that you can't really say yes these people are right and these people are wrong. It's sort of difficult to answer that because for this reason if you include incomes of journalists and editors and the public members or actually it's up to them to decide it's full of them that they're working they're discussing and answering through the region in any adjudication anonymously but the North something like that like that not happen then the majority of the votes would be. I mean I'd like to have you talk a little bit about what what life is like and what's happening in Bosnia-Herzegovina today. And as people will recall there were there were a series of wars civil wars that happened in what was Yugoslavia at after the point of collapse of the Soviet Union Yugoslavia started to come apart. And this was a place where there was a good deal of ethnic violence and conflict that was ended by officially by the Dayton Peace Accords in

1995 effectively creating two quasi independent states. The Muslim Croat Federation and the Serb Republic of Republika Srpska there what there is and overall government. But the problem sort of the problem is that each of these states they have their own governments they have their own police force they have their own army. And people look at that and say Well effectively what we've got here is two separate and independent states and the idea that this is somehow one country isn't isn't doesn't quite reflect the reality. And I guess what what is it really what does it look like to you. You would think first before I mean the mood was good the best thing about these took the vote. And later on actually they established to call them entity. The prerogative of the states. Now on now days that's trying to make it a little bit more serious country let's say I would say only that they just reach agreement that they will have a

unique army so it will not be too I mean the police will remain on the entity level but there are some some kind of it will be some kind of the state police and enemy we have too many administrations we have them countenanced 21 states altogether 20 23 level of the government. I mean for the tiny boats now four million people. Its more than enough. Thats one part of the problem. Second one country is completely was completely destroyed by the war. Infrastructure is getting better thanks to the international donations and donors but there is no economy. I mean that is but in poor state of that of the stage. The third problem is I mean a lot of people who were qualified are not in the country they are world wide spread and I mean they're like all the educated people I mean in the 10 years time we will have probably the will being the same level as ten years ago before the vote. But it will be able to get at 20 years and it's really difficult to feel that up

in the short period of the time there was then then still ethnic tension between the people because of the fact that more most wanted people for the Volker and trust in a free and wild free I mean there would be no stable peace in that part of the world I have a feeling if international is just to do with its roots not only the thing that he would have done other work because those are on their own. I mean that of the rest of the not in front of hawk to be. I did read a story about that the Army's unifying and that I know of a lot of people thought to think that that's really significant that there will be one command everybody is going to wear the same uniform and the idea is that some of those things may be superficial sometimes not but that you think that that's a really significant step the unifying of the army. I mean it's hard to explain these because they make a media deal before two years ago you couldn't even bring them to the day able to to talk about something all of them were obstructing each other and that the means used these to obstruct the other party. Now at least there they made some kind of agreement that they would try

to do something the bad things about it that they choose minister to be somebody who didn't even serve the Army because he was not capable to do that. But I mean it's through a transitional period of the time when every country has to has to pass it will take some time and this is procedure but I mean the fact that they finally reach agreement about anything it's good enough. What exactly is the relationship between the presidents of the two entities and the president of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There is no president in his presidency in the bus now and has to go in the woods three of them member of each nation. I mean cried Serbian Bosnia or Muslim as you prefer. And actually they are I'm free to say that more like. Like King in the U.K. I would say they are they have no real power actually they are just the figures that they've that because any country has become presidents or president but three in power is in the entity.

Do you think that it is it is possible that at some time you wouldn would look at Bosnia-Herzegovina and see a truly functional multi ethnic multi party state or are we are we simply going to stay with essentially what we've got now which is these these two and these two entities and they're they're going to continue to be very separate. It's truly multi-ethnic and truly multi multi political but most months but not political states. It's not known northern states and states in the in the rules of the law. But I believe the time will come maybe in five 10 years time if we join you European Union that some some condition has to be satisfied and it will also depend of the behavior of our neighbors. So really crucial because those parties who are in charge and was not. It's a purely purely national party like I said being the

motor of the party and these are which is creation Democrat Union and they always know Couper from for the signal from the billions I give so it's will depend on the changes to that part of the world was never a function for churches. Do the governments in crushing and Serbia are they involved in the FMLA ticks and their followers got definitely very I mean depends of the of the government in that country previous government in creation was more I mean in favor of abortion has to remain the only thing to see what will happen with this one because they have the newly elected government in Serbia actually. I'm more pessimistic about Syria because in the last election all of the 35 percent of the Serbian properly I mean it's been months are going to the population vote for the Radical Party and their leader is voiceless Richard who is in Homs have been accused of murder. Who are you to do and go through this.

Let me reintroduce our get our guest to Norman dermal He is director of the Press Council of Bosnia and Herzegovina this is an organization that deals with complaints from the public about newspapers and magazines. He's had some experience in the world of journalism himself. He's here visiting the campus and questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. Just recently there has been an outbreak of violence in cost of all in the worst since the end of the war there five years ago and there continues to be a conflict there between ethnic Albanians and Serbs and people I think look there at Kosovo and think that perhaps things haven't changed very much there either since the end of the fighting. Do people in Bosnia worry do they look at that and worry about that. Probably yes but I mean I'm not sure. It sounds ridiculous to but of course it was too far from both you know reading through the Words We have two years ago I mean you know 1000 both now and second when they behave

like everything is moving so close it was issues of course. Very important for the post-Nixon Bosnian people but I don't believe that to some minute reason for that I mean you have huge international troops and some even at the low end and any major conflict going to happen. And all of most of the most in the mood Muslim believe that because some of you will become independent you know I mean five or 10 or I don't know how long from here but the problem with what will happen after the course of becoming the BN that they are going to join or be in you know or something like that which can cause another conflict. I'm not sure what's going to happen there but I mean I'm I'm not too concerned about happening in this. Just to go back to something you said earlier you do you think that and Bosnia if it were if it were not for the presence of foreign peacekeepers It wouldn't be very long before people are fighting again.

It's my opinion I mean because of the fact that the leaders who started to feel free and they have a huge crowd behind them that support them hide them feed them and everything else that's clearly give me some signal that if international summits in the West know that you could expect a new world in some of the new and even you can think of it. Have people in Boston have been watching the Milosevic trial in The Hague in the beginning know that it was very badly covered. Even the major TV station didn't send anybody there. Then there are a few really independent through weeklies thought huge argument about that. And finally they found some money or whatever and report this to send that in for the last three years. That coverage was we'll done. Now we are looking to see the Milosevic defense because it was only the prosecutors who were talking and sometimes you know shoots himself. And I'm not sure that that is the sum of opinion in both know that if you are in the cockpit you go to the guilty. The

question is I would like to know what's going to think they can prove. He's definitely guilty but if he is smart and I believe he he destroyed many many many things that will do the job of those Him but I'm not sure how many of those accusation they would be able to prove. Well I have read some things about the way that people in Belgrade and Serbia are looking at the trial and looking at this question of why it is that people aren't more outraged about what it is that Mr. Lossing military has has been accused of doing and that the media there in Serbia tend to paint this as. Foreigners putting Serbia on trial and this in seem to want to spin it as just another case of persecution of Serbia by by the red by outsiders is that the way that that it looks on

other people and in the Serb in the Serb Republic who would see it that way too. Probably they could soon do three but I mean that's not through. It's very difficult for them to accept the fact that no switch was running the country for let's say 15 years and no good for them. Even if you can look in the beginning that he will he's going to keep the more thirds in one state which was his idea to make something illegal. But basically it has something to do with the last election. If you realize that after 15 years. Militia that you know and something that is from June it's to late for them to the government of Syria. Then again it's running through it for the also this new code also has a radical plan to nationalistic voted on by the voice of Christian and I mean it's probably very very difficult for them to accept the fact that that there are some people who argue if you move.

It's not older people but one by one I mean if Milosevic is youth you know if you have two different kinds of two Bosnian Serb leaders have been indicted by the War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague relevant cards and General Radko and they are probably that of those people who are who have been indicted and who are still at large. They're probably the two most prominent people on that list and I know that a lot of people look at that and say you know it's been nine years after Dayton and here these two guys are still at large and wonder Well first of all why it is they haven't been arrested. And also wonder whether in fact they ever will be. I'm in there with you. I mean 3000 stories about them. One of them says that they made the movie the internationals and they promise to them that they're going to be out of the politics out of everything which with the arrest the sense and the fact that you know the second story is that they have so many allies

among the people to hide them feed them support them. 31 is that maybe they're not even that in the month of the world than someone else. You know conspiracy theory but the fact that they didn't arrested then they didn't that was there no nothing a hug I mean it's a very very most worrying things for the Boston people. Well this is and when you read about it and people reporters ask the forces that are there well why haven't you done something. They say well look you've got to understand just how difficult this would be if we tried to use force to arrest them. It would no doubt involve some very serious fighting. It's possible that the people were trying to arrest might be killed in the process and they don't seem to have any sense of real urgency about arresting them. And I suppose you have to admit that in fact yeah those things are true. Does that does the government there in in Bosnia to govern did they know where these two men are and if they wanted to

could they arrest them and hand them over. It would happen in Serbia I mean the top one was arrested in the lead up to the hog nursery. So if there is a political ruling in Republika Srpska they could easily do that. I mean with the help of the U.S. for troops there I mean it's I mean it's a lot cause of many many that still is that's going to do to I mean to persuade the people that something like that will happen but what will happen if they don't finish and how many dead people we have after that. I mean if you put that as a as a concert I mean to realize that there is no argument in the favor of the theory that it's it's impossible to what it means. I mean they could do with these. Do you think that the popular opinion would not favor there in Republika Srpska what popular opinion would not favor there being handed over to you know you know but in the long run when you look at healing the healing the wounds

from the war you think that having having them go on trial do you think that that is important. It does I mean if. As as they were talking about them some of the people who are just the defending the people of the nation. I mean there is nothing wrong and you can really do that and explain it to the judges in the hundreds I've been there with you free but I believe that they did so many bad things so many answers few committed under the command. I mean they would never come back from that. I believe that the there is supposed to be a special war crimes court set up this year in Sarajevo. At least that I read that there was this plan to do this and in part to try to lessen the workload on the Tribunal in The Hague to make it a little easier and make it more possible that all of this is going to going to be finished by I think 2010 it was supposed to be

done. Is that actually now going to happen. Yeah I heard that about the idea that not only son able to establish an NC Department Department of the hogs had been inside of a bundle kind of mustard because it wouldn't say to make it easy and not to have too many cases in front of hogs I've been in there. But how it will go and do we have the judges who are able to do that or not I'm not sure because recently they were just appointed and that's it. Maybe a few thousand new judges. They just replace the old one and introduce new ones like people who never was in the profession for the sake of the majority of those lives and it was supervised by the internationals and able and capable to do that I'm sure. Do you think that if that actually did happen and there were trials there in in Banja Luka or in Sarajevo in most dire

so you're one of the cities and in each that represents each of the three groups. That those would be people would see those as having greater legitimacy than what was going on in The Hague because here this is in essentially in our home town you know and basically the idea is to make those chords. I mean multinational. So everyone who meets with them some internationals some Bostick some soup some groups in each of them saw you through the big days it was considered him as an international court of justice let's say in the local theater where about a midpoint here and let me again introduce our guest We're talking with Norman dermal He's director of the Press Council of Bosnia and Herzegovina It's an organization there that deals with complaints from the public about newspapers and magazines he says a former journalist himself. He's here spending some time in the United States in the U of I campus talking about things

like professional ethics in journalism. He's been good enough to come and Panel time talking with us. Questions of course are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5. One of the things that I interested in having you talk about is the media and particularly whether the media reflects ethnic division or to the extent to which maybe media has tried to. To heal to repair it ethnic division and the damage that was caused by the war. You can see many different for you who would see actually medium business regarding to the media that supports the reason or the media that used to be tool in the war. Could you have just watched them from the two different US because the parent of the

ownerships of the media even the media is publically owned. Donna doing that at the door but that of let's say a hundred and eighty five TV radio station and was now only two hundred and fifty press outlets. And let's say 85 or 90 percent of them are publicly or privately owned so in that it's really hardly anybody could could regulate them and to ask them to behave properly. You still have a lot of the media media in Boston that supports some ethnic divisions in in Bosnia as well you know. But fortunately a couple years ago under the supervision of the office of the high to present that they created some independent body called the community can we get communications really a great regulatory agency. It's the main duty to regulate the electronic media and business of you know radio and TV station and they are able actually to punish them to take the license off to

take to find it financially. And after that video we have more clear and more normal it's a situation in the TV and radio station. The problem the major problem we are facing is in the press. Two hundred fifty different dailies and weeklies all of them except one privately owned and they can no longer ration of thought. Even the Press Council isn't able to go either. And what will happen next. And all of these happening in Riyadh. The state decided to introduce laws first and then was the Phoenician act. And the second one is the freedom to the act of information because of the first one we already have more than 300 cases pending human courts about defamation about ethnics about. I mean so many so many different different type of defamation is already done. What'll happen next. I actually really don't know. Out of 300 and probably in no

more cases only one has been sold. So what will happen next time. I really don't know. Tell me again how many print two hundred fifty two. It seems like it's our fault for the fur. A country this size that's affordable Yeah a lot of press and the reason for that is very very I mean simple. During the war many internationals decided to help those small papers to talk to him and get the second side of the story to be independent of any political influence. An update maybe an event you know nine years. Those small papers they didn't actually prepare themselves for the marketing needs of the economy. So for the sake to survive doing many mean I mean different and usually bad things like going more you know using Google and some very influential party this is the sponsor or they are just become the member part of certain financial or political

establishment. So it's really very difficult to know to control them to articulate it. Is it clear when you look at them what their political agenda is the best example for that is the last election. You could clearly see from the newspaper who to whom. I mean they bloom Who are they supporting. And I mean it was because it is the issue of ownership is that always clear or sometimes it's not clear who it is the who has the financial power behind them not for money I mean it has to be cleared but unfortunately there are many ways that you never knew who is who is behind the certain things. We have a caller and would certainly welcome others if you'd like to join in the conversation 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 that's for here in Champaign Urbana. We do also have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 of color in Champaign County. And that's Line 1.

Well hi. You mentioned that there's there were atrocities all around. I'm trying to find out some information about I can say cool am I saying that correctly. Oh yeah. We hear you I guess what my guest is shaking his head so I think maybe he's not sure who it is. Well he what is the music there. By the way I'm hearing music coming down another channel apparently Hello Well I'll try and ignore it. Well I'm a little surprised. I was thinking that the New York Times has a little about him but they actually editorialized about him he was an operative. For the KLA and now he's head of some kind of U.N. training force. But he says he is one of the cons. photo Albanians that is accused of war crimes and he's actually accused of helping the U.S. in the Krajina with the Krajina Serbs when they were thickly cleansed from that region which is part of the Croatian part of the story. So he was an

operative that was mainly sort of for hire and going to where the action was but he apparently has some kind of a UN job I guess maybe to keep him on a leash or something I don't understand but maybe I'm saying the name so wrong it's spelled in English. I am the king. You. Are you talking about minions who need to check who you know right. OK. He seems to be a prime candidate to show some balance that not just the Serbians are being tried after that and the aftermath and but and I know you have. But he was apparently detained in Sardinia last October but he was within three weeks we have to write you know that it was that he was the part of the creation army that expelled the suits from the community in the Richmond Exactly and they didn't then the problem and as far as I know in Kosovo is that he he had been there to help

as they said they don't people to fight for freedom. I mean I don't know how familiar the situation that part of the world but there is no buildings like that is not only one side who's to be blamed at all these individuals from all sides that's done something which is wrong. I mean yeah I thought I was making that point in that but it's not just rumors that he was involved in the Krajina. I mean that's that's pretty well I think he brags about it actually and he was working with Wesley Clark actually somewhat at the time and the Croatian authority. So what I was. Saying was that I know there have been some other than Serbian perpetrators in charge but but but the predominant focus has always been the Serbians and I think it would be exemplary for checker to actually at least be thoroughly investigated. And also that any U.S. role in that

as well. OK I don't need to have many example to both know that both neutrons and with no movement who believe that they've been the never going to be accused. They finally get the cues then you have to fight for that and prove that in the end what seems to me that the U.S. role was supposed to being a moderating role was actually by supporting some of the more fanatic factions as actually helped stir up the masses to some extent I think that that again well perhaps. It is an arguable point but it's one that's not very not made very often and be good to hear on at least some discussion on that. I will go and I'll try not to call him in the next hour since I'm all right well thank you whatever. One of things that's interesting that one of things that I did that I did read in trying to read up on the subject is that apparently was the former

Bosnian Muslim leader Alia is a baggage who died recently apparently was being it investigated for war crimes. Yeah. You also heard that that he was going to the prison to crucify him to him unfriend your judgment you know supposed to be I mean these three accused something like that. Sure that is the problem with that is they just published that from the hugs I mean on the day he died and it was left a very bad feeling in the mouth of everybody and everybody it was like if they if they want to talk you think you could do it I mean there is no problem or discovered that he's supposed to go to Iraq. OK you could you should read that least seven or ten days and then publish it by the date of his funeral to said something like that I mean isn't appropriate well did. Did that lead people to question whether or not that that was true. I mean whether they just think think that it was sort of bad manners to do it like that. I really don't know but most of friends of mine have a feeling that actually he was

he was not a perfect person definitely but he was an huge huge ometer. And they have paid huge prize for his own interest. Let's talk with someone in Bloomington Illinois line for. Hello Lou. Thank you for taking my call I have two brief questions. One is Bosnia-Herzegovina has been said to have a great deal of democracy and relatively little economic support from the international community. It had at one time something like 70 percent unemployment and some of the democracy was also a bit strange because it could even be the voting could be recalled if the voting fail along ethnic lines. Could you first comment about the situation in terms of the economic infrastructure and how it's progressing and the unemployment. And secondly could you say something about the publicity

or recognition positive or negative of the trial. That are taking place abroad concerning Bosnia-Herzegovina particularly the trial of Kerry tick in terms of the Catherine McCann and the woman from Moscow bringing a class action suit in a U.S. federal court has that gotten any publicity in Bosnia Herzegovina and any reaction to that kind of thing. Thank you. Don't try to answer the question. I didn't please the level of the unemployment 70 percent I believe it's about between 40 and 45. I mean that's the view and the democracy I mean it's in the poor states. Destroyed by divorce in its foundation and not part of the of them on the route.

It's on a very low level. Officially have multi party system and we officially have a multi religious and multi national country but still we can say that democracy really working with me in that I mean in that sense and I would second publish the of the of the trauma blows we have heard about the case that some and some. Something of course in the states decided to go against going to juge But I mean there are so many cases against got to do that and people always like to hear about them. And this particular thing for the federal part of the both not to speak ill of them but we dont expect a lot of. Those courts verdict abroad against guards. This one did get a multimillion dollar judgment so yeah but you know what.

That's right he doesn't fall like that I suppose you know I mean she would not even have been crying. Exactly yeah. OK thank you very much. Thanks Erica. One of the things that I read was that apparently there was a survey conducted in 2002 by the United Nations and one of the things that they found was that two thirds of Bosnia-Herzegovina as young people said they wanted to leave you know the procedure since it is even an even higher amount I believe if you have any and any young person let's say from 18 to 25 you will receive young if I have opportunity I would definitely look and are older people do they also tend to be that discouraged about what's going on there now. I mean I'm not sure but the bend of the. How did the video leave all of that depend of their income. Some of them even that had a low income will stay because they don't like to go and they spend all their lives there so they are not going to move. And but

there are some of them who are in the in the video all of them but some have some children or relatives abroad that they would readily go buy that. And also the fact that we have a lot of suicide but they gladly in the old age people didn't pick because they couldn't concert going on through their pensions and you know that it's I mean something that should concern both and govern. Just also to pick up on another question that the last caller asked that about international financial aid and the fact that apparently in recent years it's been it's been going down and down and down it was huge. I believe but there are no trees how it's been how people in business printed. I mean most of that money. That officially went on to help both not to build its infrastructure is probably used properly but I had joined the SI article in The New York Times suits a year ago that said that with a few billion

missing from the end of the money how would people in the end money finished No but you know for sure. Let's talk with another caller here Mahomet and line number two. Hello what do you got quiet. Talk us a little bit more earlier and then chance Syria but looking to the future and the dynamic of what's going to happen in Bosnia Herzegovina to what extent do you think that there are forces in Croatia and in Serbia that favor the status quo like the current to a division in it. It's time for the stand in the way of like there's a good many of attaining some liability as a nation and that's sort of well just how you think might play out. We touched on a little bit but I think it's a good it's a good question and we can talk some more about it. It's very difficult to predict what will happen but basically Boston is going to his record as a state and every official that arrives from any part of the road from the

States from the U.N. you know they said something in their favor. The second reason I believe that they're not they're women succeed in the region is to divide the business. The priority for the people in their countries changed. They're not you can't mobilize Libyan population or newbie creation population to go and fight for part piece of the bus in a part of the Bosnia in the same time having a social structure a social life in their countries all fulfill is is in my country. So in the long term I believe that the third reason is if they join the European Union so. Something. I mean there's no obvious him some local political right thing goes that I mean I would like to see both now divided and would like to interfere more or less through the business. But as a state but nothing major will happen. You know it was just as an aside I love being in.

Delegate when a few days after Milosevich was taken to the Hague and I had discussion in the train station the taxi driver in a way are average the people there and a couple of the discussions seem very open to lawsuits being criticised at that point in time. You know like this is to what extent do you think that delegate is a lot more politically advancing like I had a lot of the support for the atrocities. And have been has given he was like I think a rural dynamic and I liked the more conservative elements were in the rural areas of the city a little bit more cosmopolitan more tolerant. Do you think that's true. I believe that it's true that there are going to see these more I mean they have done this through what happened in Bosnia but people in the countryside assume you simply doesn't know that they don't like to believe that some leaders would make some atrocity or did that

and they don't simply don't Long want to believe that I think that's a very interesting thanks leisure time and I think for the CO if you think back to what happened after after the Soviet Union was no more and after Tito was no more and you wish to live it what we should study started to come apart. Two essentially two of the major leaders started yanking and started pulling in opposite directions from your judgment in Croatia and started yanking one way and at least there was it seemed there was the possibility of Croatia and Slovenia becoming independent and identifying sort of identifying and hooking up with Europe and couple in that way. And of course wanted to grab as much territory as he could. Milosevic was doing the same thing sort of pulling in the opposite direction wanting to grab as much territory as he could and though that was a driving force early on a lot of the fighting and at least one could imagine that possibly those kinds of entities could could

actually be viable independent states. There are a lot of smaller pieces like costs of all for example. Or maybe Bosnia-Herzegovina you have to ask the question well is it actually possible for them to to be a viable state. And I wonder whether it would do you think that that's that's actually true for a particularly for Bosnia whether that it actually can be an independent state or that somewhere down the road you have to think that it would have to continue to have some kind of an affiliation with a larger entity which makes you think that those kind of connections either with Serbia or with Caray Shia probably are are always going to be there. Know that it will be very difficult but bus no is independence that and they're in they really mean independence that I mean the number that goes from the neighborhood would like that but it will happen. And but I have to remind you something. You just forget that before the appearance of the two of them and we have Milosevic we

have all those leaders not man who reads are watching who used to be the chairman of the committee spouting Thracian and it was 11 or 12 Congress of Communist Party in Belgrade. So students didn't even the election increase from Milosevic clearly show to all others. What is he going to do. He wanted to force them to stay in the U.S. line it. But on his way and he made the deal with the president of Slovenia. Actually squadron will this month is going to hew down as exactly was going to happen and then he decided to leave then left with Congress after them cross-legged and coke Claude's a member of the Congress left and then Milosevic tried to to make a joke over there that the they anyway they would leave whatever he said so.

He helped to get there liked the lawsuit and you know it. If he has more patience he to listen with those from Slinn increase I have to say probably I mean it would be more difficult for two women to get in charge of the use of the the hope in a long line of people in Bosnia that they are going to become part of the European Economic Union. I believe so actually there are some conditions both it has to satisfy the hundred three hundred and eighteen of them. I visit the site 18 of them so it is additional hundred who to be. So this is right and we will leave by 2013 rejoined Europe and then in the meantime is it do I have this right that Bosnia is interested in joining NATO. You have been trying to do that. And they have strong promises that if they elect if they unite the army is one and few others that are there that one of the preconditions to get there in the middle.

What did what do the people in Bosnia feel that they gain by. Being by joining Neda. I mean they would feel more secure. Basically they believe that nobody will be able to attack them for as they did before and I mean they did it too. To pay the price for that. So that it really does. It does have to do with security concerns I guess I asked the question because it is. Some people have looked at countries in Europe that formally were Warsaw Pact countries who have become been interested in joining NATO some people have said Well really what that's about is it's it's a it's a backdoor way into the EU. It's sort of a first step because it's easier it's actually easier to get at NATO than it does in it is into the EU. But it sounds like you're saying at least for people in Bosnia they they actually have it is a real matter of security concerns and that's why there will be I believe this is the first time the sickroom is definitely as you say a big good for joining you Europe in which he will get one more caller here at least.

Champagne wine one hello. Yes good morning. I have a question. A sort of off subject but just out of curiosity is there no female leader of feminine voices coming out of all the change in government. I remember reading a book by slabbing the faculty which so years ago and I just don't hear any female voices and leadership roles. I'll just hang up and listen to the answer. Do you know a few of them but you know what I had completely less and less trying. All parties in booth would have increased and that's going to have enough leave the scene the governor just to show today what does that mean. These units are only men in the government. Basically I mean you don't know that and not many too many voices from the about. Well I think we're just about the point where we're going to have to stop because we've come to the end of the time. Well thanks very much for taking some time and talking with us. Thank you. I guess never dermal

He's director of the Press Council of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This is an organization that deals with complaints from the public about papers and magazines and Bosnia-Herzegovina and he's a former journalist himself spending some time here visiting on the campus of the University of Illinois.