Focus 580; Rwanda Since the Genocide

In this hour of the program you'll be hearing a conversation with Dr. Zack and Sangha. He is the ambassador to the United States from the Republic of Rwanda. He was visiting the campus of the University of Illinois last week. We sat down here in the studio one afternoon and recorded this conversation we talked a little bit about the genocide that happened in his country in 1994 and the efforts that are being made there the ongoing effort to rebuild the country and repair the damage. We'll start the interview now as you listen just keep in mind that this is pre recorded and in this our focus 580 we will not be taking your phone calls. Well thank you very much for coming in to talk with us today. When you come I would like to go back and talk about what happened in 1994. I think that perhaps some people listening will not know the story. In 1994 over a period of one hundred days something like eight hundred thousand people were killed by their neighbors. Essentially most of them want to seize some of their more Hutu. But they were killed by their fellow Rwandans. The precipitating event. I

came in April of 1994 when a plane that was carrying the then president Mr Hobby Ramana was shut down. But tensions between the two ethnic groups the Tutsis and the Hutu had been building for a long time. So this was the this was the proverbial match that touched it off. Can you talk about why it is that the genocide occurred and how the stage was set so that then when this event happened it happened but that really wasn't the cause. But thank you very much for that equation it's not true that actually it is that a yes I did just that in 1984 into and out into us that did wear buck the Keatings over 1958. When connected as as the Guinness had by some people in international can. Armed police plating events that cause the USA 2094

is not really the shooting down of the president. It is a number of other factors that you can trace from the cornier times through post-independence period and all the events prior to the to the USA. The administration distorted the history it created some of the facts that brought division. For example the issue or identical it is to identify it one and two Hutu and Tutsi. Hit up to Greer creating a cleavage not in a city between the people but between the administration between that he does who came of the independent because when the when the massacre was over nine hundred fifty eight fifty nine started.

It was the colonial administration together with the mob the demobilized. Some people into wonder again as the Tutsis and therefore the friendly kind of those who survived after the massacres of Millington if they ate the government then put up what he called our minister was. That those who committed those massacre we're not going to be pushy guest is therefore a role was president is to city and then it is 6 7 to 4 to defy impunity. So it was just kind of in the period that allowed people to be mobilized by the media by the ship. And by many other things in Rwanda prior to 1994 that he put it to the stage for the genocide. In 1984 when the president was a short we believe was fired from his own in town or position just

to put him aside said he could you know. It wasn't the defense that had started by the way. We're back in 1992 our own there people went to committee I want to study them a bit as English as Q who had used it to Dick said get those two cities is key to them cut their heads and throw them into the river and they were to Abyssinia where they do know. So it's tell us it before the shooting time because this would do it down over there put in was done as a pretext to get oh i think i'm telling mine so they could start to the mechanism that you said the Rwanda had been a Belgian colony and the Belgians ruled through the Tutsis who were the minority and as a result of the took full advantage of that position. They said at the best jobs they got the best education and there was a good deal of resentment among the Hutus who were the majority about their experience during the colonial times when the Belgians left

the Hutu became the rulers of the country essentially and. This was the colonial experience that reinforced that division between the two people in the country. To start with was before that time was was there much in the way of competition resentment violence whatever between Hutus and Tutsis know that or are they already there billions did when they came in to do either. They did used to have a corner in that act or one had to be mandated by the United Nations to their billions as a caretaker. So actually they weren't there so what they did they looted wonder from the Kinshasa threw in that it threw through the chiefs through the King by the you know the king of wonder came for us as more of S. and so called the Tutsis and he keeps these could have he presented the whole or what he called Jews was because ordinary

people where were poor as where. So I think it was perceived because of this in their title. So the harsh treatment the pre-frontal treatment of the chief's sons and daughters to go to school as opposed to other ordinary citizen was seen you know eyes and a fair and indeed it was unfair. The billionaires would have had to be given the opportunity to everybody by the US to give their way an interest in getting administrators and his way only the sons of Keef's to do that. So after independence when there was drew support from the king and his chiefs they supported the movement of radical Hutu parties to come to the surface. Yesterday's overnight shift would not have happened if the billions we're not partisan the hippies militias even at that time to mobilize and start buying houses they wouldn't have done that by themselves

but when the upraising came in because the King of course didn't want to lose power so he had to stage existence. So we needed this is things wouldn't have been broken down if the billions Connor used a billion. Kind of that term to excite this NG as I want to record it in a way that is books. So you took said and is questionable and therefore said State of all massacres of thousands and thousands of. Two it says that their followers by the way that they were allies of the King were not even to his own those who were in India Israel included the Boers Hutus deuces wild man said but it was stated that way so why the blame of the persecution and personal independence of government was because they knew that women's ideas together. You can't have a situation where people have one and where you want to hear and seeing that is that this came from heaven it is a long process of. National unity that has to has been happening so the governments of the independent should

have used this. These are good things in the in one of the colored community one language one creature to put them together for the future of national unity and economy development. But what we saw. Repeating what had happened in the past during the current 10 so the Belgians created in a sense those divisions ruling indirectly through the minority through them today and then when independence came. It sounds as if you're saying that the Belgian Belgians wanted to maintain their influence over the government so naturally at that point they would then back the Hutu who were the majority who came to two had the government I mean am I hearing you. You're saying that we're back in the 50s and then to mid 1950s there was a process of decorum as a show in Africa and in Africa everywhere Tanzania and then us and it was when to go to court I mean the British are going up the king over to on that particular day were one to do so to have

independence. The billions we had to put supported him didn't want December but when the movement became we would give it away I got nine of the billions we were forced to I didn't for a week decolonization but a billion because of that didn't occur to them able to get the census they since has over 900 when the damn thing had identified those who had a dent or cards or vote with the majority of those who had it then it heads over towards where minority so they thought it is bitter to see John Doe tools and see if actions have taken place under my do that one. But it is my duty as well and a number of public order promoted as I will depart to order it for most people in one of the things I didn't think this was applied to everybody. So we had a party that was a brother but he yearns to win and therefore this government it came after became a party that was by design indeed in its outlook and incidents.

I don't want to belabor the point but I guess just to run this out you you believe that had it not been for the continuing meddling will use that term of the Belgians that the Rwandans would have been able to sort things out. And would have been able to put together a government that would have functioned more fairly and peacefully than the one up result absolutely. Actually after independence the billions we're no longer dominant in the politics of it when the differentia came on the scene because after a lot of warning they became more dominant over that one. So if you had one good leadership one this is a ship that was forecast at least based on the euphoria of nationalism that we saw in the current countries. If they had been good as sheep and that would have told the master that we need unity in this country we wouldn't be there well here I mean every country in Africa potentially had disappeared from every country in Africa

potentially could have had this problem because it was these were constructs. But in the conference dividing Africa into blocks so every country had Does problems everywhere in Nigeria. So if it wasn't for they did a ship of 20 paintings that put together and that and nationalistic Freck. You know I mean they would have disapproved but they didn't have because of that issue. So I think that it should be in a way that is equally disposable for that kind of thing. The administration is responsible for the independence of most city does in Africa how does poems these hate mail Colonial you know that we lean in when to who is and who is and who is. But if you had it would as you buy that but the campaign wouldn't have had to have happened you know I mean at this point I'd like to introduce again the guest for this hour of focus 580 We're speaking with Dr. Zack and he is the current ambassador to Washington

from Rwanda and has been since the spring of 2000 and three we are recording this interview that means that in this hour of the program we're not taking your phone calls in ceremonies last December to mark the 10th anniversary of the genocide and the president of Rwanda Paul Kagame I said 10 years on the survivors of these gruesome crimes still suffer in silence. There has been dual survival survival of the ordeal and survival of the after half of the genocide. But then he went on to say that a decade has done little to alleviate the anguish. It's been now more than 10 years that would this this year would be 11 years. Can you talk about what progress you feel has been made. Progress towards recovery from what happened in 1994. I think the biggest progress we have achieved is there. India Arie no consideration nationally to any consideration. We've been

able to bring order people including those of a vice on the board to say the only way forward for Wonder is to the Quonset. But the program has been how to bring about this sequence Ed. And yes it is at the same time it is a big challenge how to balance that too. But if you look at the way a while and in India for yabbies deep into the deep. And here we are now. Today there is a quite a very big big big progress that has been met but that isn't a D or an area where our focus will focus also on fighting poverty because poverty is always one of those circumstances that you know that this hatred of governance area an area of good governance will be able to make sure that it does you know and I edict it. We have a NEW going to first

say we should have decentralized power. Local authorities need to be elected in the past. They used to be nominated by a president so one day people can be accountable to the people who directed them that to it. It may be a Beat be difficult for one single person to Marbury's does a bit to keep reporters or to gain a vote. In the area of of what we've had to reform our justice system to meet the killing is we're facing now you know two reforms have been have been there and therefore now we are able to have access of Yes is to many to almost everyone these so programmes of injustice kind to be addressed the problem of leadership is going to be addressed. The program poverty can be addressed. Now there is a framework that is a mechanism but whether this is producing is that it is a process it will take a while. We How can you fight poverty when you have a did it excruciating

did Biden you know whatever you get from outside was Buck repaying loans so to being put in the schools Tilman put in Harrison has sold his idea is that telling is the big dead but didn't we have a good international support but hasn't been giving enough. This isn't an issue as a board as I'm enough to meet the challenges that you face. After a year of say for example we never had you know after you drop in I mean after second word when he was after the usual course after European wars and as war you know the United States embarked on a Marshall Plan devises those countries were never going to Marshall Plan and we were getting the killing Islam was of this immigrant would at that period. So a lot of progress has been achieved in any of the conciliation in the justice in aid of economy in fighting poverty in the area of many social economic and you know NDA and unity you know how can we account

for this that needed to for the progress that is being made in wonder. After a year if it wasn't for it as an amount of progress that had been to Cuba so there is a lot to buy there is a lot to be done and I think that's where the president was saying. I mean disorder is. There is a survivor. We're talking about it a consideration but I'm talking about a composition that on a budget of concision we're going to talk about other things that affect him. We have with women who were raped and they have a TV that was dying. We we have put it on as another show that I didn't have you know while getting treatment. Those would help them but I wanted to help in the women. So you kind of see how this support doing good is not to support reality that is a focus. Yeah and is that it is but we had to time and what happened to fall has been to us. It's sort of a turning point that we kind of go back we can move forward

but his speech was would you go and we move forward. My series will be determined by the resources available to move ahead. It's my understanding that now going on 11 years since the genocide there are something like still a hundred thousand people and you can correct me if that figure is not correct in prison who are suspected of having been involved in the genocide and I read a quote from someone in the government who said at some point last year in a in a newspaper story I read that at the rate things were going it would take a hundred years to try everyone. How do you deal with that number of people that there must at least be some sort of review and you do want to hold people accountable. Given that number how do you cope with that. Yeah that's true. We're back in 1998. We started addressing these issues with you had a national debate about is how do these issues of the economy how do the additional justice how do these issues of security and governance. So on the first just is a concern. We had good some expats had come for

America Australia everywhere and they reviewed our situation. They said Adelaide there were things are moving it to take you between a 150 years to 200 years to complete these cases and you know we know that without justice the concision is very different. So one is started to sour such in themselves and they say what can we do. And that's the time we arrived at a process that had been a useful. Tool you can saying and really you know I don't that one has to live in harmony before they can in times and I do as well you're going to get a church or a church or is a traditional justice system but spirit or in nature and the purpose is to bring people on their own to do was and with an arrow in the wrong words together and in front of it Judy those people with credible credentials in the communities. Why impartial we just in these cases and help as it said to them and the people to

be back into society. It was a system that was never used to hang the input as it was a system that was it was saying. So we went for that. But because you know we're dealing with you know side we thought we would improvise it more it or more to deal with the issue of genocide and the genocide the criminal suspects are now architecture rising too all at one time with their four categories but now there are three major categories the ideologues of you know said the nurse is the one I need to go number one. Those people who cleared they knew what they were doing anyway. Maybe they had of the vigor to do it but they never thought about the idea and then the other two were three of us. So this process of which I we he CVS and he judges people in the greater good to the city that they were number one on the news into the classical Yesa system or so because it was as opposed to several There have been for the 2000 Odo's have been

easiest to pass through this process and the police's wanton use there is and where those who it is those are the ones who come forward and or fixed to be in front of their people and say we committed these crimes. This is what happened I want to call it community I guess there is no way we kind of night we did them in a confessions I think they are both over 6000 who have confessed out over there were over 100 and when but those that afforded to have already gone because of the conditions that are on people as okay and I would do community and to be treated by the community. So already now it's a no door no longer a hundred thousand who are there now or it is than it is how they manage meaning and the process is moving as I'm talking now this month we are going to Harvard disperses country wait. Looking at these cases in a short period instead of one hundred fifty years we may take maybe thirty five he has to have this behind our back and in the process of

course EDITION continues. So this is how we have money to do this. This was a political decision taken by whereby I wonder to use a homegrown mechanism for consideration for knowing the truth. Human rights activists have criticized it and say this doesn't inform the international standards and they say yes we know because international standards which you would have liked to use will take us one hundred and fifty years and so can we wait for that. Maybe our policies may hear the past we can say when it's and to see justice within our lifetime. So we know it is not up to International has done it but I think it works. I mean something that is fun to 2002 from prison is that something we should do when it is a kind of work. I mean how did to have been deposed

of what is supposed to be teased and who was who had such you know so we think we have a point. We think it is a tip i'm has here but I think it will bring about the quotes that he said you know come true. I'd like to introduce again another guest with us our focus 580 doctors saying that he is the current a baster to Washington from Rwanda. He was born in Rwanda was educated at Macquarie University that's in Uganda. He has a medical degree. He also studied at University of Westminster and has a master's degree in diplomatic studies. He has served as ambassador to Israel to the United Kingdom to the Nordic countries and also to Ireland and is visiting the campus of the University of Illinois we're recording this interview so that means in this hour of the program we are not taking calls. I'm curious to talk just for a moment about you and your background. Had you have you ever practiced medicine. Yes I did have that completing my mentor could do could do or practice for NEA in Uganda and then I moved on.

So I was in Africa in a suit. And they plucked any one of the major hospitals in my cereal in a subtle so I practiced for for a while and did heroin no awareness on his part to front the good did their part to that stop the NSA 1994 when he started a war in an interview I faded. I had an obligation as was my according to war and assist so I went and started working as a medical fees I know behind it I miss. And then when the Guinness idea stopped I was in a minute as an ambassador to Syria and then I went in a different direction together so you didn't but you were not a soldier but you were at your practice as a doctor said a doctor I'll tell you I was taken as a so yeah it was in the ranks over there and appear but then I moved on to diplomacy. I mentioned a couple of the comments a couple of the lines from

the remarks that President Khatami made last December at the ceremony for to mark the anniversary of the genocide. He also said he said this and I am quoting him he said I wish to make it abundantly clear that we Rwandans take primary responsibility for what happened 10 years ago. Having said that however he and many other people in Rwanda and truly around the world have said that they felt that this represented a failure of the international community. A failure to intervene to prevent the killings that took place. Right. Do you feel that that that is the case. Could the killings have been prevented if the letter say the United Nations or the United States had had stood up and said stop us have a surgical believes 100 percent the president was right certainly in saying

we take preeminence possibility because as I told you the successive governments of the independence they took the route of their predecessors and led into United ones went to his post where there were potential. One is to be united they didn't do that and they made sure activity played a very big role in mobilizing the machinary of killing the international community that had to send troops into Wonder in 1994 when the units had started there was a bit to withdraw his forces from one. It happened. The very day they moved him home and wonder is every day many many people who are protected in the child chairs in the stadiums they were hired to do this and he did you know that area the first command I sit. If he had to good at this 5000 troops with a mind it was a minute he should have us it is a hundred percent agree that

if they had to be unanimity on a part of international community to say the government of Rwanda stop this they would have done so in order but I mean just the indecision of the United States ever the United Nations and other members I'm tired of going into this people wish they had had it but that it wasn't if it had only just leaving innocent even if they you know said the whole government the missionary that had committed genocide moved into Congo for twee as they were in the camps being unfit. How can you feed a camp of innocents if he is by to saw steaming always tanks and uniforms and leave you are to that. You keep on putting in the resources for three years. This is this is I use it for trading to buy more weapons and you know this saying this kind of thing to happen and it was iffy.

Up to now there are over 20000 and I was over 15000 groups commanded by those who committed you know say yes to the international community whose disciplines beauty if that is not doing it with their uniforms is in a Kong they have in their mind it to do with any of the dissidents in a quote but not those who commit the USA to knowing that there is no mind it's even that they feel is owed to them by the continuous let me ask you about Congo because as you say after when the RPF came back in and managed to stop the killing in 1994 and take control of the government a lot of these Hutu militia the interim way left and many of them went into Congo and that is a result of that this conflict has spilled over the border between Iran and into

Congo twice and two times. Iran has sent troops into. Now it is my understanding you get you can correct me that a couple of years back I think this was in 2002 there was an agreement reached between the governments of a Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda to remove the Rwandan troops. I think though that this was somehow conditional on the government in Congo Democratic Congo doing something about the Hutu militias that were there it seems. Just recently there have have Rwandan troops gone back or are there troops that are involved in Congo that are backed by Rwanda that are still fighting with Hutu militia who are in there. What do you what exactly now is the official position of the government of Rwanda in regards to what's going on with these these people in Congo. Yeah the government would when I did the Congo was the end of it has

to because of repeated incursions of these groups who committed again this had that quality into having me just as for my so yeah if D and I thought it best to Quang the incursions into our country and do it despite what the mechanism in place one of them which you mentioned and that is it. Agreement it was a mindset or difference and there are many actors in that agreement in different countries. Indeed you know we sign an agreement which agreement had a four peat as I think similar Peter's one to have in the hallways a dialogue to have foreign troops withdrawal and to disarm and demobilize and the partridge was one upset. That awkward negative voices including and more especially that one in the US to do there were no committee innocent evidencing And on top of that 2002 we had a bye letter I wouldn't between that one and Cuomo to make sure to

appear seminaries. This kind of thing by letter so the rest of the icepick who achieved KOA government had to go to government a transitional government. We withdraw our troops but does the mission at the X5 is negative forces are still there. Nobody has done anything about it. So our program has been. We have an agreement. For us we stuck to the agreement. But again what is a government and international community has not done in this is to assist to that or the coalition government to eat themselves. So this is an end in I mean 2005. And we still have these threats is encouraged. And you're saying why can't form a government lead like an international community need to answer is It hasn't been done so isn't there then over the idea the through about six rockets into our country we say this is this can be

accepted. So we said if nobody does this to disarm them we really have to go into war. So that's why you know the media came up on you know when we were yet we didn't to go to court because the international community this time said one that don't are going to go. We now understand we're going to find a solution. We're now waiting for dissolution. But we know African Union. It has come up with a statement to say look we have to help to disarm it is a collapse. We would provide the necessary troops to do that. So for us it is one that we know that this is now the international community seems to be engaged and you are saying we are not doing that to Congo because the international community is engaged but we hope now this is the last the last chance. So that's why I did so the position is in a quote by the way there are different factions that had been fighting who are now in

the in the government but the problem is this where as they are they have a government transition. They haven't been able to do to disarm and integrate these forces together. So what you each force Syria plays where they were. So that's a dangerous situation and it would be here fighting in a call why this group's well close to the one that we used to hit up in that time when we before the that agreement so they're still there and they're still fighting these actually do good in my my eyes and there's a comedian's And you wonder because there is a lack of appropriate exercise of integrity in these forces. They haven't ever been disarmed they have never been integrated. That's a problem but one that is not there. We have assured a core one who don't want to go there but something must be done. When the RPF took control again and ing the killing in 1994 millions of Hooters among them these

militia members fled Rhonda and went into neighboring countries. And I'm not quite sure what the what the status now is how many Rwandan refugees are there living outside of Rwanda now in in neighboring countries that are still there that that left. Back in 1994 in 1990. Man to six. When we when the government decided when to go. Because for Diaz nobody was was it was just a compass. There's an economy to our border. When the government would want to push him for either. We had those militia as those I meant for they defy the West. I just know that if you come back to one. I know India can break into one of those were in Tanzania came back so we did that but did you have time around over 1.5 million. When does it come back. So according to statics takes about by units here today about

70000 when his main as if he is going to add in the region and outside. So whereas we used to have over 30 media and when used for days now we have a 70. That means over 95 percent of NY does have a comeback in the country. So we still have those if used to nearly a year and we think and anyway the information I have some of them my dad is there those who committed genocide to put up with it they would want to come but put all of their worries unless something happens they will keep on wasn't put arms to nearby in a meeting kind of is pressured it Indianness who wish we hadn't hit hard today. They were all over the country. Understood but as a brand as we had at ourselves but through 95 percent of our differences have come and all of those people have who have a particular those people that you would characterize as you know hard core militia people who were involved in the genocide. Do you think that it's possible

that those people can come home. Yeah they can. That's why we believe they should come said and those who committed crimes will go to international tribunal or certainly for that there's no way but to those who are being recruited into their ranks who never committed genocide. We continue to have open put into it to bring them and reintegrate them. We are currently doing it every day that whenever they come. We have a program with the World Bank and those who come have a very good package you give them and they're integrated does. Yes Nestea we had the money to bring back one of their top their top leaders of Iraq commander and and his one hundred and ten people who are then integrated already. They got money you know we still have our our part ration commission. Permanent to keep on you know reaching out to do is come back to the why and

the fact that you committed a Guinness It doesn't prevent you from being good when so was do when they would come but it's him type of the cunts. Some of them are criminals and they should be arrested and taken to evolution. Or even the Patriot had to buck and we trade them eyes with those who committed against we able to with the unknown. It's not that it is if it ever did. That's why we're able to have a good Sacha. Those who live there those who committed a Guiness had by then or there I do know it was who got sent to you. I think it's really fascinating as what I have read about the this process this traditional court process which happens at the community level. When you take people who are honored and respected individuals leaders of the community and then people come and they can you know accusers and accused stand in the end and confront one another. Does that I guess I wonder whether people really come away with the

feeling that justice is has been achieved. There's reconciliation there's justice I'm not sure that those two things are the same but you look they do I mean I do this thing would have been to bring this war to guests but it would take 200 years and you see what do our interests is in a building or a community initially. So that's why it was a weird it was difficult from the very beginning. I mean if at the beginning when survivors had that YOU GOT A TATTOO AS was coming they say that I do want to stress to you the government to release these people again. Impunity in the past three years there's been no was done now is a government once who sees them through that it was a bunch of business survivors to accept disperses. They did. There has been a lot of confusion as you know. People come and say we want to apologize and we want to ask for these things have been going

on they were never there and we see this adviser say OK now there's nothing you can do about it. There are vivid cases clearly documented cases and one where people have forgiven each other. Isn't that so. It is possible it happened. It's not a panacea. But what do you do. We live it. It was a political decision taken because for the interest of a concious what interest of knowing what happened and if it interests you know it is a work before you care you're going to see I was a secretary here and the minister of interior one of our responsibilities were prisons. We were paying 50 billion years. I mean when an afront to feed the prisoners Iraq three billion francs to feed. Absolutely. Now this money would have went to schools I mean schools and so it's a but it was only government. It's a political decision that was taken two to do to look at those things. Now

imagine if you have if you had given you have been in prison for 150 years they wouldn't be living will be living I mean you kind of why didn't they give it to the problems of having to take food every day. You know so by taking the paper from prison it brings some kind of relief to the cross-section of one his and that's why those women precede the dear thing disabled and has to go they're not going to vote not only for their gun but also for the their relatives or those who committed genocide. Well that's I guess I wonder what about the relatives of the people who were killed in the genocide. I mean how did they how do they feel about seeing people who who may have been murderers go free. They are wanted. Because even we saw that there are some incidences where when do it is it. This started you know killing the witnesses it happened but we said should we stop this now. We can stop this.

This is this is a weapon and we must punish them severely but we will not stop this. So they are wedded only the Muslim one and or is it you are more into the conciliation Where is ing this before but not much is being done. Can visit those who have ever had a say. I'm telling one wood example that people in a rush are being treated for those who have a cave and those who are raped and have a TV and are getting into medicine. So those are the east those are they killing is of have with this program. So I knew we would put this the international community please help us so that we can also cater for these survivors so that they put as a kind of move ahead. But they're you know they have they are no longer are many many people who are what today is the word I mean to give us before the you know you know as we've gone wrong a very many in this where the problems are so minute. But if we really had a mini sources if the chatter is good we would also go take care of the of those who

survived. I'm sure that they would try to degrade the prison mission. Look at this have a look at is who it is said. So look I do see things on credit and the government in its budget puts a budget fight pass into view by date to this I mean as of again I say. We have called for people to put some money in this but nobody brings them in this. Why do we need bees as a national body or the government to help them. So we would like these just five by saying to be bigger so that is that that that is a caring I just I'd like to as we have about maybe five six seven minutes left again to introduce or reintroduce our guest Dr. Zack and Zynga. He is the ambassador from Rwanda to Washington has been since the bringing spring of 2003 and also has been in the Foreign Service or want to for some time as ambassador to Israel the UK the Nordic countries Ireland he

also also was the editor of the ministry of internal affairs of his country and he surfaced in the campus again that we're recording this interview so that means that in this hour we are not taking calls from people who are listening. I want just a props as as a way of ending up to talk about whether you feel that Rwanda is making progress toward building a kind of a multi-party truly democratic state. Because I think that there has been some criticism that the the RPF and the government of Mr. Khatami is. Is is dominating politics is not making it possible for other parties to to fully participate. And one could imagine a scenario that if enough resentment builds again among various groups in the population that you might you might see some kind of return to violence. How do you how do you address anybody who might charge that that that indeed your you're the president's party

is is not allowing much in the way of political competition. I think people are so impatient you know. Destiny as if we had a genocide. And one of the things we did 30 days ago as you have had to kill you the governance of the country. That's why I mean to decentralization that's when we went into it forming their plan. Yes this is them under so Constitutional making the process one of the first thing that was key and by everybody the way they said they would want to is to have it be did Steve might add to system. That was we thought that was it had to be it was indorsed it was an earth rated from number 1 to 3 percent of the people who went in. Now you don't get actions it was computed by many different parties in a quite efficient by they doing the treasure to transition period there were 80 parties working together was when he parted from tool to measure the transition.

So in NE India in India actions there were four presidents three presidents opposed to the kind of president. One of the key or opposition was a man who was a giving in the inability for the wrists of the points in the paint of the period. So what happened when he came we funded. I think the issue was if you are you are you in such a case 10 years after the end of the genocide and you are opening up like that the chances aware that it was secured was seen as cute because. Certain it appeared was predominant had to stop the genocide had brought or does wonderful things in the country. So naturally people endorse the president but it was a contested it was a contested for the first time in the history of wine so I think the inducement over this the government over one of the current president was this what you have done.

Thank you for opening up. By now I think we need to sow the opposition wanted to grow and is no Woody whatsoever in front of I mean of preventing anybody of a form of form from coming up under and the confusion is very clear. They did the court of law petition is very clear. Don't bring us back into the into the past into the you know this is what is this if you guys are in the condition. But everybody parties can be formed. I think the critics who are saying there are parties which you are which you were banned in wonder one was a man indeed a former party and a CD-R which will which you were going to say you know said and also the Isle of party independents by two years ago to party with a bow to their image which is who to put it. And because of it see if it's manifest to another as it was is that the party that was along the division line and then went on to say no we can't have as your party dividing us again. But I see it here for sure that this is going to be a competitive

multi-party system but their weaknesses of course and you know you don't want to create parties by putting them in there. They develop and I think not only may be coming next time we will get some position either for them or appear for you know I think it evolves. It's I've seen it evolving You can't have this happening and you can't you can't you kind of go back to this thing called them has promised us that he has these two terms I visited two times he will go and if he doesn't he would for be that's what Israeli people would forbid not no third term. So but you had a kind of candid through wandered through the United States and other countries we still have difficulties and problems we're developing but at just why did why was it I agreed that there should be a multi-party system in the first instance. If you want to be of one to mean it it wouldn't have been I would just kind of thing to happen in it and there was nobody saying to eat no. So I think

critics yes he's a good citizen but I think it was going to be seen as to be whiter than snow. Exhibit A says Rome wasn't built in one day. I think that is the way Tennessee. Well I think we'll have to leave it there Mr. Ambassador thank you very very much for talking to come and thanks for deceiving you and listening to a conversation that we taped here in our studio Well last week on February 9th with doctors acting single He is ambassador to the United States from the Republic of Rwanda he was visiting the campus and we took the opportunity to speak to him even though we knew that we couldn't do it live as we like to do and give us the opportunity to talk with him.