Focus 580; Japan Today

In the first hour of the show today will be talking about Japan in the post war era. Japan has become one of the world's leading economies. Certainly things aren't quite as good today as they were in the 80s but nonetheless Japan is still a very powerful economic force in the world. Only recently however that is within the last decade or so perhaps has the country begun to move on to the world stage as a political player and as that has happened. Japan has faced some criticism it has faced criticism and fear from some of its neighbors in Asia that remember its conduct in World War Two. It's even faced criticism some internal criticism from Japanese who are concerned about rising militarism in Japan its involvement. Outside the country with the military force even if those people are only involved in peacekeeping and from time to time on a fairly regular basis in the Western media you see stories about nationalism in Japan how it is on the increase and obviously at least in the minds of the people who write the stories that it is a concern something to be

noted and something to be worried about. This morning in this first part of the show one of the basic questions we ask is Is nationalism on the rise in Japan is that something that Japanese are worried about and should we be worried about it and our guest for the program is Kevin Doak. He is a professor of East Asian languages and cultures at Georgetown University in fact he's the chair of the department. He's been there since 2002. He's interested in a number of things including Japanese intellectual history and also issues of ethnicity race and nationalism. He's been there since 2002 and before that between 1994 and 2002 he was on the faculty here at University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. He's talking with us by telephone and as we talk questions are. Welcome the number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also do have that toll free line that one is good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 at any point here. People who

are listening have questions. You're welcome to call we just ask callers to be brief. We ask that so that we can keep the program moving and getting as many people as possible but of course anyone who is listening is welcome to call the press or joke. Hello good morning David. Thanks for talking with us today. It's good to be back talking with you again. Well let me start let me do this and let me just note this article that caught our attention and this is why it is we started thinking about it. This was an article and I would imagine you probably saw it it was in the New York Times December 16th and it was about the fact that one teacher in particular and I guess a number of teachers in Japan have raised objections to a new regulation that was required by the Board of Education in Tokyo it would require teachers to sing the national anthem while standing and facing the national flag. And this one teacher in particular said he and some other teachers said no I won't do that

because for them and I'm. Quoting here from the story they felt that the flag and the anthem were symbols of Japanese imperialism. And here the author of the story the journalist who wrote the story who I don't know if he is Japanese He he is has a Japanese name Norman So on a she he writes this many Japanese felt the same way for decades after World War Two. But perhaps because there are now more comfortable with their history or perhaps because Japanese society has moved right the authorities here have made respect for the flag an anthem mandatory for teachers and students. Two supporters of the move is a step to make Japan into a so-called normal country that can be patriotic and proud of itself. To critics it is dangerous indoctrination that has no place in a democracy. So here I guess I have some very basic questions and I'm interested in having you give us some background and perhaps broadening our understanding and maybe the place to start is by asking about Japanese nationalism whether in fact nationalism in Japan is on the rise and is

and I know that you doubt it. Not specifically a political scientist but I'm sure that you spend enough time watching Japan so that you could have something to say about a question like Is Japanese politics moving to the right. It was a very interesting questions and one of the sense of frustration I often get reading articles in the media like the one that you mention in your time is that Americans are often poorly informed about what nationalism means in general and particularly what it means in particular societies and therefore when we hear an article about nationalism in Japan I think oftentimes we think of Pearl Harbor we think of war we think of threats and dangers. And I think a lot more than that going on in Japan. In part what's happening and has been happening for probably the last 20 25 years has been an attempt to come to terms with Japan's rather strange postwar history. The first thing I think that your listeners need to understand if they don't already is that modern Japan I should say post-war Japan after the defeat the war was militarily occupied

country for seven years by the United States and that the government and that the Constitution which they live under today the government system I should say was largely foreign to the constitutional not entirely formed by the military occupying power United States. Now that creates problems for citizenship for civic engagement for what we would call a kind of democratic national service to say all of the people seen themselves as a community for which they themselves are responsible. And what happened I think instead has been a tremendous political disenchantment disengagement. And many Japanese people have just gone about their lives as one person said Economics was the way to survive as a Japanese rather than politics. And since the 1980s it became clear that as you said in your induction Japan's economic wealth brought with it I think implied at least a certain political response was for the for the world as we just saw with this terrible tsunami tragedy. It's not enough simply today to be an economic power I think that you have to also bring with it the ability to influence affairs in the political world for democracy for

Democratic hopes I think that's less the case so much with the tsunami incident as it is in the world on terrorism or the offense in Iraq. So the problem we have in Japan is that the Japanese people are very wary of any direction by their governments and have a long tradition of either an occupied force or a government that's been put in place largely by the force or you could go back to the origins of modern Japanese democracy from 1868 in 1905 when the Japanese people weren't really citizens they were constitutional subjects of the Emperor. And the right to vote wasn't extended to men until one thousand twenty eight until women until after the war by the Americans. So I think what we're dealing with is a long tradition of disengagement a weak sense of responsible citizenship and then on top of that you have these larger global events that are dragging Japan into the world requiring it to play a responsible role and missions and other coalitions and people rather confused by all this as to whether they should engage with politics trust the government become

involved in civic affairs and civic values such as a national anthem and a national flag. And I think the interesting thing about the story that you were citing about this resistance to Japanese people showing respect to the national flag or sing the national anthem is to compare with America. We just had in our news stories some complaints about religious words being used in say the Pledge of Allegiance but nobody in America to my knowledge no major political group has suggested that we not say the Pledge of Allegiance. You know we're going to get rid of the references to religion. I think most will be fine with it. In Japan's case it's even further streaming that the people who are resisting the national anthem of the national flag don't want any of it. It's not simply a matter of religion all of that. It's an interesting side that we might discuss. They just don't want any sense of membership in a political sense of nationhood. Well let me ask you another question and that is that gets to the.

The matter that the way that we react to this kind of story the fact that it's in the New York Times at all it's in the Western media at all probably says at least as much about us and the Western perspective our way of looking at Japan as it does about the Japanese in the way that they're looking at themselves. So I guess the question is why is it that it seems to worry us why why is it that what we see these signs that we interpret as rising nationalism and we we have a certain way of thinking about that which may not be correct but why is it that this is something that it seems to worry us that a very good question and it's not an easy one to answer. I think the offer an answer that we see so often is simply that America's had a kind of client state relationship with Japan for most of the post-war period and we don't want to let go of control. And the notion that the Japanese might actually develop more independent foreign policies that they may begin to act as an independent but yet democratic state

means a loosening of our ability to control affairs there which we've had for most of the post-war period. That's one reaction. I think another one is that things are changing throughout the region. Things that Taiwan Korea China and there's some concern that the entire region is being engulfed by nationalism and would rising nationalism in Japan and rising nationalism in China Korea and Taiwan certainly lead to a greater involvement by United States militarily as well as politically. And is that something that we really want to get involved with right now. Those are two potential reasons that Americans readers and I think in the back of the minds of many Americans are still of course when they think of Japan they are hardly thinkable to especially the older generation. And for them I think many these older generation just can't really accept that Japan over the course of the last 50 some years has changed has become democratic. So people bring to these stories and all kinds of personal concerns and personal assumptions. Our guest in this part of focus 580 is Kevin Doak. He is chair of the parliament of

East Asian languages and cultures a Georgetown University. And he is very interested in Japanese intellectual history and issues of ethnicity and race and nationalism among other things. And we're talking this morning about contemporary Japan. We started out talking here about the issue of nationalism and perhaps we'll get on to some other things questions are certainly welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 1 4 5. I think that it's true that over the last and I'm not sure how long this has been now several decades I guess there. There have been some Japanese in various spheres people who are I'm sure journalist people in politics people who were in the academy people who are in the business world who have said. I'm not sure how how publicly but who have said that they felt that for a long time a problem with Japan was that it was too inward looking and that it was important for Japan to become a player on the world stage and not just in an

economic sense. And we have in fact seen that recently as Japan has become very important as a as a provider of international financial aid and also that Japanese troops actually have been now involved for I think for the first time outside of the country region so the region following the invasion of Iraq now and I know also that had these things have been controversy among Japanese but I guess I I'm wondering to the extent that you know you can you can say how Japanese people think about this matter of. Being of looking looking outward about being involved internationally about opening opening out being becoming more involved in the world in in those sorts of ways. It's a very interesting question because people report on Japan's lack of

international consciousness or its insularity in various different ways and I see there's a paradox there. On the one hand I was in Japan a couple years ago and had two young children who in the public school system I found the public school text which strongly international much more promoting of international than American textbooks are. But by internationalism they largely meant peaceful economic kinds of issues. International doesn't have a cost. It doesn't create any ways or that nobody would object to. When people critique Japan for being insular or for not being international generally what they mean is why is Japan not playing a stronger role for democracy in the world. Here we have a problem I think certainly East Asia's strongest democracies a great ally of the United States. And yet it's hamstrung in many ways by its tradition and by many of the people that attitudes. For example the war in Iraq recently a survey showed that 88 percent of the Japanese people. I'm sorry. Being different is 84 percent of the people surveyed were against the Iraq war.

But the subtext is of those 73 percent were going to all wars as a matter of principle. So we have a very strong pacifism in Japan that. I think to be honest it comes from the fact that Japan Japanese are the only people who've ever been armed by nuclear atomic. Of the 20 weapons saki and that they went through a disastrous 15 year long war accumulating in 1945 and then left the Japanese people with a really strong animosity or sense of war being at all costs at all times wrong. The senator's use of military force is something that is extremely controversial or as you say probably extremely opposed by many Japanese people under all circumstances. Then you have Japan as a major player in the world today for Democratic states trying to establish the security permanent security seat United Nations and I think this whole question then becomes part of a larger global agreement. Japan cannot get a permanent seat United Nations unless it's willing to bring its military into

coalition and you sell side the region sometimes as they finally have done. Koizumi has pushed small token amounts of the Japanese military into the Iraq coalition against the great opposition of his people because he believes that Japan has to start playing a larger role in promoting coalition and international organizations. So it's a real dilemma. We have a caller and I want to bring him into this. Conversation our telephone number by the way here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 that's where people who are here in the area around Champaign-Urbana if it would be a long distance call. However us our toll free line that's 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 years callers how someone on the cell phone line number one. Oh yes usually when nationalism arises there is often a rise in anti-Semitism and I've heard that in Japan there is a rise in anti-Semitism. And I'm wondering if that's really true and if

it is too erratic. Yeah it's true and I'm going to hang up thank you. All right. It's it is a good question to get from Champaign-Urbana area because my former colleague there David Goodman is an expert on the topic. And David has written at least one book and many other things on that. And I share his conclusion which is that anti-Semitism in Japan might best be called final summit as it's a kind of bizarre obsession many people have with the Jewish people oftentimes seen in an intentionally positive light and fact so we just had touring in Washington D.C. I think around the country a theatrical production on simple Sugihara who is the man a world war to they call him the Japanese Schindler who saved many Japanese people through his diplomatic connections. So I don't think there is a kind of. Tap on Jewish people you find of places but your caller the interesting point that has to be I think looked at more deeply and that is nationalism generally gives rise to ethnic hatreds so that in Europe for example German nationals and gave rise to an ethnic

hatred of Jews in Japan one of my concerns in my research has been looking at how one form of nationalism in Japan which oftentimes is resistant to its own state poses Japanese post-war government for being too American. But that kind of ethnic nationalism in fact leads to discrimination against Koreans and Chinese and other ethnic minorities within Japan. But in terms of oppressing Jews first of all there just aren't that many Jews in Japan and secondly there's a strong tradition of particular among conservatives of identifying with the Jews. So I think the real question is is how nationalism gives rise to a hatred of ethnic others. I have another call here again someone who's calling on a cell phone this is on our toll free line we'll go there. Line four. Hello. Hello Good morning Jeremy All right. Yes I'm I'm very interested by this topic because one of my concerns after the fact at the last election was that my my impression that unfortunately the Democrats did

not make a case for internationalism as opposed to nationalism. And I feel that that the Republican Party under Mr. Bush has have moved very strongly in a nationalist direction. And the comment about the rise of ethnic hatred might fit into a general anger towards the Islamic peoples and this is my biggest concern in my about American foreign policy right now is rising what I consider a nationalist viewpoint about all things that go take place in the globe. I'm curious what's your. What's your guess we have to say about this. That's the interesting question I'm trying to see how I can weave it into Japan and East Asia. I think that there has been a rising and Tegan ism towards President Bush even before the reelection and in Japan and that that oftentimes reaches over into a kind of broad anti-Americanism by

association. People often make mistakes but sometimes they do. Between this administration the American government or say internationals and Nationals I think are oftentimes mourner twined then we think that it's quite possible to use nationalist resources for international goals. And I think that internationalism properly understood is really when nations acting as nations come together and a way that serves their interests. The real question where national and international is a conflict with Japan today has to do with the regional questions of the Senkaku Islands which China invaded last year which are in Japanese territory. The question of the Northern Territory's which is in dispute with so it was the Russian now former Soviet Union and of course the whole question or North Korea where a number of Japanese had been kidnapped by the North Koreans and raised in Korea and sometimes killed or or died over the years since the 19th. 70s and these kinds of issues are so shot through with nationalist interest particularly Sincock islands

and yet they have to be reconciled and resolved somehow through international cooperation and I think the Japanese although many Japanese people are specks press anti-Bush sentiments are ticked because of the war as I said a very pacifistic. I've also read that many Japanese people are grateful that Bush is approaching the question of North Korea the way he is through diplomacy and through coalition building rather than through unilateral approaches that other people had suggested or through force military might. Well if Japan unable to step forward into a full role at the United Nations their presence there as as a pacifist nation might be very helpful and useful in that body. Right I think the pacifist attitude would be helpful if they can be reconciled with the use of military power I don't think the Japans going to get a perm a security seat unless it like France and England and other permanent security seats are willing to use their military force for the interests of United Nations. And right now there's

so much opposition to the use of Japanese military even for peacekeeping operations because the young P.K. O. Person to person was killed several years back and the Jeppesen will just pull out. Let's not even involve ourselves in peace keeping United Nations operations and Koizumi just through other fields sent a good number of the troops to Iraq making sure that they were cordoned off by other troops that they wouldn't be anywhere near harm's way. And even that's very controversial. Japan so I don't think Japan's pacifist values are going to get the strength of United Nations policy making unless first of all they're able to somehow compromise with those in order to use their military forces at least for United Nations missions. So I think they're really in a logjam here. But thank you very much for responding my question. Well thanks for the CO. This is actually something that is restructuring of the U.N. that we're going to be talking about later in the week on Friday will be doing a program on this and as you as you touched on here one of the one of the sorts of

suggestions that has been made is the possibility of expanding the Security Council adding some more seeds and. And having Japan be a member is that something that there would be strong support for among Japanese people. That's a very good question because if these people like you what Chrissy's are split over the issues the current prime minister of course Koizumi has in fact and just recently last September made a speech before the United Nations General Assembly New York in which he made the case for Japan being granted a permanent seat the Security Council and the other thing that your listeners need to know is that he also said there's a need to get rid of a clause in the U.N. charter that talks about enemy states which of course Japan was number one of them. How many people would support this. Difficult to say but the most recent numbers I have on Koizumi's popularity by a newspaper which is not very fond of him suggest that it's somewhere around 40 44 percent.

That could seem low and is often reported as low but actually historically with American presidents is not back. And the problem is that Japan has a cabinet system and elections can be held in a minute more or less. So they do keep an eye on the publicity or the public opinion approval rates. The other thing that needs to be brought into this however is that while Koizumi's ratings are not as high as he would like there's nobody else on the scene there's nobody else that opposition would rally around. So he's likely to stay in office and he's pushing very hard and I think there's a good many Japanese people who would like to have a permanent seat in the UN Security Council. A little of those people not all of them would like to do it in the conditions of having to employ military power. Our guest in this part of focus 580 again Kevin Doak He chairs the Department of East Asian languages and cultures at Georgetown University was for a number of years before going to Georgetown on the faculty here at the you fire ban a champagne. And we're talking about contemporary Japan and looking particularly at the subject of nationalism something that he is interested in. He

has written on questions comments are certainly welcome the number if you're here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 we do also have a toll free line that's good anywhere that you can hear us. And that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We're at our midpoint here. And because it is the first Tuesday of the month we have to pause here for a moment to do something that will continue our conversation will pause for a moment for this to a test of the emergency activation system. This message was instituted by the Illinois Emergency Management Agency. This station is participating in a required monthly cap of the Illinois Emergency Alert System this is the most developed to provide information to the public during emergencies.

There was a task. And you were listening to focus 580 I'm David Inge glad to have you with us this morning here on AM 580. And again the focus. We're talking with Kevin doc from Georgetown University. I wanted to talk a little bit more about Mr. Koizumi. I was interested I was reading a column. In the Asahi newspaper a column on Japanese politics by a journalist apparently has been writing this column for a long time kind of taking stock of what has happened since Mr. Koizumi became the prime minister in the spring of 2001. And this column is his observation as since we entered the Koizumi era Japanese politics have swayed violently between booms and bashings and he talks about the fact that early on people apparently were very excited about Mr. Koizumi because he is different. He is not in the mold of more traditional Japanese politicians and like American politicians or politicians elsewhere

he campaigned with the promise of shaking up politics as usual he said he was going to take on the. That the prevailing party the LDP he promised to take the party apart he also promised to revive Japan's economy. And now I think he has now come in for some criticism because he really hasn't managed to do either of those things at least not to the extent that he promised. But one thing I did specifically I want to ask you about that ties into this topic that we're talking about one of the things that has drawn some criticism is Mr. Koizumi's annual visit to the U.S. a coney shrine which is a temple a Shinto temple it's in Tokyo and it's a memorial to Japanese war dead not just in World War 2 but for better Parenthood. The number of wars going back to. To the 18 sixties and what makes it controversial is that it also honors some of the dead of World War Two among them people who are war criminals. So that just for some people just the fact that he would go there would be a

controversy troublesome sort of gesture to make. And this is again that's one of those things that is often referred to in stories about him about Japanese politics about Japanese nationalism. Just what sort of significance does that have what does that mean. Well it's a hot button so it really complicated question. And he was criticized I think most recently by a Chinese ilevel official for doing this brought it out in a meeting that they had it was a pick meeting and the critiques over Yasukuni are very interesting there's legitimate grounds for critiquing him and then there are times when I would say people probably shouldn't be criticizing. I think it's quite ironic that the Chinese government officially protested when the first to use the talk about internal affairs that you know China's internal affairs are sacred and nobody should be involved in. And the Japanese government sense although they didn't like particularly this directly was that this is an internal matter that every country ought to have an Arlington National Cemetery.

And at that level I can understand the point that Japan doesn't have something like we do. Arlington National Cemetery to honor all of the people who've sacrificed their lives for their country and Yasukuni Shrine comes the closest to it. Now the problem with us going to shrine of course you noted is that it's a Shinto shrine and the post-war Constitution and Japan like America solution has a separation of church and state clause. So there's been a lot of controversy about whether sitting prime minister would go in an official capacity to the Shinto shrine. And some prime ministers argue that they can go as long as they make it clear they're going in a private capacity and I think Koizumi has been rather impatient with those kinds of niceties. But Koizumi is trying to do is find a way that the Japanese people can respect everyone who gave their lives for their country even if the cause wasn't good and I think one of the places where he can legitimately be criticized is that to the degree to which he can he still remains a Shinto shrine. This involves him in a particular

religious almost an establishment of religion situation and the other thing that's rather important significant about this is that a good many of the people who are honored whose spirits are interned and yes Cluny are Christian and some of them are Koreans and Taiwanese who fought for the Japanese in the imperial period. And there's been also a controversy. Should people who aren't Shinto people who have different religions be forced because of their involvement in Japan's wars to be interned and honored in the Shinto shrine so obviously they're going to have to be a solution. And people talk about whether or not there could as be established a kind of secular public or National Cemetery like America has in Arlington or whether some other solution could be arrived at and I think one of the problems with the proposal to stablish in a public civic National Cemetary like Arlington is that there's also tremendous animosity in Japan for anything the state does. I mean you mentioned before the break the Japanese government the legislature passed a law democratically elected

legislature passed a law stipulating for the first time in post-war history that the flag and the anthem Camille would be the national flag and the right of the time they didn't have a national flag or national anthem. And there's a tremendous human outcry over this. So you can imagine if this legislature established a law setting out some National Cemetery that there would likely be a similar hue and cry over how nationalistic This is the irony is that for many Japanese people Ishant a shrine is more acceptable than a national state cemetery which would evoke images and memories of statism in their lives during World War Two because there still are very many developed Shinto practitioners in Japan who nonetheless don't care much for the state. It was a very complicated problem and particularly when foreign statesman such as the Chinese statesman get involved in this because I think they often don't see these nuances and complications and simply see this as some kind of Japanese conspiracy to be China or something. Let's talk with someone else. We have a caller here in a bent line one.

Yeah I was wondering about the significance of the and the bubble economy over the past decade. My perception is that it's changed the way that many Japanese feel about themselves their families and their community and that it's made them a little more thoughtful introspective and community minded and so forth. I'm wondering if you think this is true. And secondly how that might then translate or have implications for the issues you're talking about how they feel about the country and its place in the world. That's a very very good question I was in Japan several times during the collapse of a bubble economy when the inflated land prices came back to town and a lot of stocks and bank debt that had built up over the little in prices can crushing depend faces and still faces a major major debt problem and it's caused layoffs for pretty much as essentially the first time postwar history. And while one would like to think that it's a turn people towards community and towards more important values it's also had the impact of creating all kinds of

social discord murders of school children school children fathers who commit suicide. Mothers who kill their children. There's been a tremendous sense of political and social and cultural instability and certain anxiety or. Where it definitely impacts the larger global world because one of the things Koizumi was supposed to do was to redress this problem of the bad debt resulting from the Bubble Economy. And he found there are tremendously strong entrenched interests that are resisting him. And he continues to try to do that with his finance minister talking. But he's up against a lot of opposition so at the macro level they're continuing to address the problem at the social level where when I was in the pen I noticed a lot of stores that had gone out of business for the first time and ever been surprised are seeing lots of signs on permanent holiday essentially. And it has had a tremendous personal cost on the Japanese people in this is one of the reasons there was so much hope that Koizumi could turn it around.

Having said all the bad news it's important to note that the Japanese economy is in fact growing at this point growing very very very small I think second quarter of last year they had about 0.3 percent economic growth rate but nonetheless they've turned around the negative growth rates and the positive growth rates and I think in time and with some adjustments in restructuring the closing the administration is trying to take to implement. They might be able to turn this thing around. The social costs are big and they're part of a broader cultural changes taking place in Japan and I just don't know yet where it's all going to lead. But I would underscore that when I was there a couple years ago I could see the pain in people's lives. Does that get your question caller. Yeah it's a complicated question and thank you. Well if you go to another caller in Indiana this is someone on line number for a toll free line. Hello. Well I'd like to take advantage of this situation having somebody I know must talk to politicians and gives advice. If you

could put on two hats a Republican a Bush Republican president period versus say Democratic adviser to the president and what you've been talking about the last half hour or so on. Could you sort of give the you know have two mouths and say what's what a Republican advisor with Bush would be telling him you know in the general sweep of things you want to do and what you know it's speculative. Kerry president advisor would be telling him what to do if at all possible. Thanks. Oh interesting question. I've often been accused of having two minds well enough like that. I think that if I were a Republican advisor to President Bush I would probably encourage him to continue building a coalition of regional powers to address the problem of North Korea's probable

possession of nuclear weapons. And at the same time try to resolve the kidnapping incident of Japanese citizens. And I would probably encourage him to continue reaching out to Koizumi and to continue to try to bring Koizumi into the international coalition and ultimately to from the sea nations. If I were a Democratic advisor to a Democratic president right now I would probably and I understand all of the Kerry administration's arguments before the election that the problem in Korea needs to be addressed unilaterally that more attention needs to be given to China's interests in the region and we should probably not put so much emphasis on such personal and local questions about kidnapping as we should about the question of Taiwan and the larger regional and questions but. I'm not sure I can play either Republican or do so

well given. I realize by the way they're asking you questions about politics and economics that aren't that really aren't your area of specialization. But having said that given the fact that Japan's neighbors and East Asia continue to be uncomfortable with Japan as power and influence and that for them the memory of what Japan did in the second world war is still fresh given the fact that also that there are economic both political and economic rivalries going particularly between Japan and China for who will be the leading power in the region. You know given that. Background how do how difficult will it be for Japan to become a major if not the lead political player in the region. And how how does

that how does that how do these countries do you think sort out these various kinds of rivalries and sort out their past to come together in an kind of effective way for for their region. You know I think the regional focus is the right one to take. And it highlights a number of complexities a lot of perplexing problems that are facing the entire world. One thing about this constant bringing up of Japanese nationalism or we're too. And I'm partly guilty of it because it's what. And I want to make it clear especially to listeners that if if some of these nationals unlike myself it doesn't necessarily mean that that's the problem and we shouldn't forget the other nationalisms in the region as well. But in many of these cases Korea China to a certain degree Taiwan nationalism is a force that seeks the maturity and development of a nation which has not completely reached development. Korea the question of course is unification and nationalism are that

high one. There's a sense that people have grown up. There are now 50 years in this country have their own culture their own identity. And I want to say no you're in China saying no you don't you're part of us. Clearly the question national and China needs equal attention. And therefore oftentimes these rival nationalist claims from Korea and China in particular in some degree Taiwan raise the past raise the question of World War Two and others are often perplexed. But because the Japanese government the Constitution and the people are entirely different from what was there 50 60 years ago and the Japanese as I just stated were streaming pacifistic. So one wonders why these questions of World War Two in history textbooks in the US Clooney and even Japanese national them are consciously brought up. Well one of the reasons I brought up I think is to keep Japan off center so to speak and the result of all that has been throughout the post-war period the need for a United States involvement in East Asia. In a sense Japan can play the role of economic donor. America is supposed to play the role of the muscle for democracy in the region

as that region changes and as America's commitments grow in other parts of the world. There's a reassessment going on as to whether or not the United States can feasibly be involved the station if we have to withdraw from East Asia. Some people like Chalmers Johnson arguing who's going to fill the void. Do we want China to fill the void. Would that promote democracy do we want Japan to avoid but that promote stability. What would happen to Taiwan and what's likely to happen to Korea. So as of now I don't believe that there is any realistic prospectus for security and blocks in a region without United States involvement and I say that fully where there were already probably over committed. Well that gets at the question that was in my mind back to the 1980s the time when the Japanese. Kaname was really booming and here in the United States we were concerned about Japan as an economic competitor. The media in this country was full of stories about Japanese culture about Japanese business culture about Japanese popular culture some some about Japanese politics but more though those other two things

and it seemed that at some points we were just obsessed with Japan and then when the the bubble burst the Japanese economy cooled. Then it was almost as if Japan just dropped off the map as far as America a lot of Americans were concerned so I guess the question that I'm heading toward is something like what what does Japan mean to the United States today. It's a great great question. One of the things that I've been trying to do over the entire period I remember I was in Japan the 80s. Everybody was agog about Japan. It's been trying to normalized. And by that I mean my interest in Japanese nationalism is NOT say this is the greatest threat to the region. We all have to watch out they're coming to get us. Going to another attack none of that would be crazy outlandish. My interest in nationalism in Japan comes from the question that all nation states particular democratic nation states need to tame nationalism. If they're going to be effective democratic citizenry in their in the countries and to a great degree Japan has neither tamed nationalism nor is it encourages a healthy sense of citizenship.

So what I would like Americans to finally recognize is that Japan should be something that we're fascinated with. When we're thinking of cherry blossoms and geisha and Japan should be great here when we think about economics and trade or military but rather Japan is moving very rapidly towards a normal country in a normal society. A very important one. And we should pay a lot of attention to Japan because it's economically important because it's a great democracy in the world where there aren't that many democracies. And because in the post-war period the Japanese have become extremely familiar with an appreciative of America. I don't know if I gave these numbers earlier but let me give an account of did the recent surveys show that 88 percent of the Japanese people believe the world would be less safe without American influence. Now that contrasts with the next leading nation who believes that United States influence is good for the world which is England and that's only 60 percent of the British feel that way. So when you look at this the United States has a great friend in Asia in

spite of contemporary political differences with the Bush administration when Iraq and the Japanese people extremely familiar with American culture. And we are. My sense is that Japan is moving toward a normal nation and we should be very interested in that. Let's talk with another caller this is saw someone also listening in Urbana this morning line one. Hello. Yeah. Did I read into what you said that you read Japanese then as that. Yes yes. Yeah. Well I just wanted to know if you had read much and or seen anything in the Japanese literature or how they I mean what is coming from the from the. From the from the fact I believe that you know that they're aging very quickly. I believe they think they're going to have to import

workers and you know have to accept immigrants. A much greater degree than the ever did before. And yet and and put that with China as a tendency you know and I'm just curious if if if they might be thinking that they're going to have to move closer to China and perhaps the people that come in to help them you know sustain this bubble and the demographics the slump in the demographics would be Chinese. I haven't but I'm General I just want to know what you have. What you might have read about what they're thinking of in terms of how to deal with China and its ascendancy. Thanks very that's a very good question let me deal with the birth problem by thinking that in closing the cabinet there's a minister named chicle M.. A woman and one of her jobs is to be a minister of state for Youth Affairs and measures for declining birth rate

has been recently important high level government conference on what to do about the declining birth rate in Japan. At that point it's very important note that Japan's declining birth rate is largely a similar phenomenon to what you find in industrialized European countries. Right. But placed in East Asia the caller did it raises the question of its relationship to China. I'm not entirely convinced however that a large number of young people in a society is necessarily an asset. It only looks like an asset when you don't have enough thinking about social welfare spending. Who's going to pay the tax and who's going to take the old people. But in many other parts of the world including the Mideast a large number of young people creates questions of unemployment and political economic and other kinds of instabilities. So I don't know that the birth rates alone of the population and demographics suggest a rising China in a declining Japan. Part of China's economic rise a great deal of it has been of course the result of Japanese investment. So that in spite of the nationalist

antagonism sometimes the breakup between China Japan over things like sink island territory and culture in the war. There's an under neath level of tremendous cooperation in terms of economic growth vestments. Well does though. Is it though going to be the case that to deal with this problem and as you say it's not just a problem in Japan it's a problem elsewhere in the industrial world that the Japanese are going to have to start thinking differently about how how easy or how difficult it is for non-Japanese to come to Japan to live and work and raise families. That's been an ongoing issue for at least 20 20 some years. I mentioned earlier my kids were in elementary school in Japan the textbooks for social sciences were all about international relations society and how you need to welcome other kids and other people in the society I must say. My two boys were extremely welcomed into the school system at the elementary level they made lots of room for

them. They were not discriminated against. I think Japan has made tremendous steps in that way. If you go in Koto for example in the major cities you find Korean writing Korean off the hunger on the subway stations and throughout the city. Japan has become all more in many ways international I think the United States in some ways some measure to me I look at it. But the question remains and it remains for Europe it remains of course for our country and for Japan as to what they will do about labor needs in the future. I think it's also important keep in mind that in the 70s and 80s Japan addressed a similar problem through technology. The idea was that you could get more economic growth out of technology per worker. And I think that part of Japan's attempt to respond to the demographic question is going to be to look at technology again and see how much more wealth and growth they can extract out of high technology investments rather than simply increasing the number of laborers that won't address the entire question. And we're still left with the problem of immigrant laborers and an international culture an international society which I'm

happy to report the Japanese media and the government the people are addressing as best I think anyone can perhaps in many ways are ahead of most American people thinking about international questions of misty identity things like we have a couple of minutes left we have one more call we try to get in here. Here locally here in Champagne Urbana Lie Number 1 0 0 0. Yes. Good show. The news mentioned a Westerner one of the first to get a new heart and a Japanese name and the I.D. card what's involved in that and what are the advantages like owning property and so on. Thanks. Listen off air. Right. Very good question. In fact I've been number of Westerners who have become Japanese back in the late 19th century left as one of the first but under the. Current constitution there's been a revision of the nationality law. I think it was in the early 1990s which has removed many of the formal obstacles so that for example you don't

have to take a Japanese name anymore to be a Japanese citizen. Blood has nothing to do with it. There's a process that seeks to discern how serious you are about citizen ship so there's a period of time I think they expect you to have some facility with the Japanese language and general kinds of familiarity like that but they've largely Ribault they've entirely removed the ethnic and racial barriers that were deemed to have prevented many people from becoming Japanese. The real question is that westerners there are a handful of Westerners including a story as a weapon and Hokkaido who got involved in a public mask and all became Japanese so that he could continue taking public vows. Other question of Koreans and Chinese particularly Korean Japanese people never been to Korea don't speak Korean ethnic Koreans who have been prevented from having Japanese citizenship on the basis of ethnicity. The most recent revision of the national law now allows them if they choose to become Japanese citizens. But there remain cultural and other kinds of barriers on both the Japanese side and on many of the Korean people side that prevent all of them from becoming Japanese citizens.

We are going to have to leave it at that because we've come to the end of the time President we want to say thanks very much for giving us some of your time today which I think. Thank you David it's good to talk with you again. Our guest Kevin Doak he is a professor and also department chair of East Asian languages and cultures at Georgetown University has been there since 2002 and before that from 1994 until 2002 he was on the faculty here at the University of Illinois in Urbana champagne.