Focus 580; Elizabeth: The Struggle for the Throne

This morning in this hour focus 580 will explore the early years of England's first great female monarch Elizabeth the first and our guest for the program is historian David Starkey. He's published a new biography of Elizabeth which is titled Elizabeth the struggle for the throne. It's published by Harper Collins. And indeed it explores her birth her youth her early years. She certainly changed her country in ways that we can still see today. But at the very beginning her rise to the throne was certainly anything but a certainty. Well talk about the character of Elizabeth this morning with David Starkey. And of course people have questions and you're welcome to. Call the number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free. So that means if you're listening in Chicago for example or Southern Illinois or Western Indian or any place you can use our toll free line that's 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 3 3 3 wy L.L. toll free 800 to 2 2 W

while just a little bit more of information on our guest David Starkey is an historian and commentator he's fellow of Fitzwilliam College Cambridge. He's the author of several works on the Tudor period including the reign of Henry the Eighth and the English court from the wars of the roses to the Civil War. His home is in London now he's spending some time in the United States talking about the bookies in Chicago and as a matter of fact we'd like to mention for polka folks in the Chicago area that he will be at the University of Chicago bookstore for a reading and talk today 4:30 in the afternoon. The bookstore is located at 970 East Fifty eighth. So anyone who's interested. So it should feel free to attend of course here on the program if you would like to give us a call. You may do that. Mr. Starkey. Hello hello thank you for talking with us. Not at all I mean it. I've have in fact found interest in America really very impressive. I was talking in Chicago last night actually the public library and and the size of audience the enthusiasm involvement

was really impressive. She is. Elizabeth is a compelling figure. I think perhaps one should be surprise you would be for if were for British vox but you're in the United States even as she seems to be. I think she's the kind of world. I mean you get a handful of these people curious enough her father Henry the Eighth is the same I was a couple of days ago I was over in Chicago doing doing the sort of thing that I'm doing now. And I noticed downtown in a rather cheap area. There was a sort of tall and big man shop called Henry the eight store. And these figures seem to that the kind of the English mists The Tudors of the English mists and mystic figures go right they reach right outside their own time. They reach to as across the centuries and you know each age interprets them for itself and obviously one of the reasons why Elizabeth is so interesting to people now is feminism and the idea of a woman in power I mean Elizabeth actually hated the idea of other women in power but but we tend to see it differently

as you. As you say Elizabeth's father was Henry the Eighth. Her mother Anne Boleyn Henry had gone to some trouble to dissolve his first marriage to Catherine of Aragon so he could Mary Anne Boleyn and his hope was a male heir. How did Henry feel about it when indeed the first child that Anne Boleyn had was a girl. Well he put a good face on it and I think he did the most. I mean there was an obvious and our assessment. You counseled some of the celebrations that they had organized a tremendous tournament soon a games on horseback they were counseled and Berlin and even have the leftists announcing the birth of the prince written in advance and they carefully inserted. To turn it into the birth of the Princess things like that. But. They put a good face on it and in fact Elizabeth we were talking now about the status of women. It is a bit of from the very moment of this proclaimed Princess that is to the throne and other was she was treated as add to the

throne pending the from the son of course that didn't come by that marriage. When Elizabeth was three her mother was executed. And it seems that her that she bore no ill will against her father for her mother's death and in fact she apparently loved her father hold him and held him in great regard. Perhaps it was because Elizabeth was only three but in a way it seems a little surprising. It seems very surprising particularly because we. Tend to be Freud in about these things you know we see it in terms of modern psychology and psychoanalysis and all I'm doing David is looking at what Elizabeth herself says she never mentions her mother and I think in the whole of you know the next 40 50 years of her life as an adult there are two mentions of her mother but her father's name is constantly on her lips. It's very important that we understand I'm one of the things I try to do in this book is to bring home the very very

different context of their lives. We tend to think of them as you know another kind of all British or all American family. You know Henry and Anne are in bed Elizabeth is in the cradle at the foot of the bed. The book starts crying and Henry says and you deal with it. It's not like that. The King and the queen lead almost completely separate lives. They have their own suites of private apartments. I mean Henry's private rooms at Hampton Court cover an acre. And Elizabeth isn't brought up by her mother. She isn't even suckled by her mother. She's got a wet nurse who feeds. She's got her own house. She's got her own palace is 20 miles from Cork. So the news of her mother's fall and death horrible though it is he just filtered through into into an existing secure world and her closest relationships at this point and for a long time afterwards are with the men and the women who bring her up they go. What I mean is different from how this would play if they were all living together in a

duplex. Well it it seems also to be the case in a very real sense that the most basic function the royals have is to reproduce themselves. That's true. And of course it particularly fell heavily on the woman on the Queen. Any problems in producing a male child or indeed in fertility tended to be blamed on the woman. And if you look at how the queen is treated in terms of the rituals of the court. It's everything to do with her pregnancy to do with this cycle. So the moment she's pregnant is not a private matter it's something of public rejoicing when they think the time of the birth is approaching. This is immense ceremony in which her confinement. I mean we still use the word but then it meant something literally. The queen ceremonially withdrew from the life of the court which of course men were as heavily involved as women into an all female world into which men were absolutely bitten. She was sort of locked up in a room that was like a

log seriously padded cell we have to see this is as as you know the essential female row. And it's this of course which Elizabeth Patton of life challenges. I mean she should she doesn't play that game. Well it certainly seems to be the case that. While she Elisabeth was clearly and Im an intelligent young woman capable strong personality that she also benefited by receiving what would have been at the time a boy's education not the kind of education that a woman a court woman who was destined simply to go on to be someone's wife and produce children would have received. Yes being British. Actually it was really striking in this early phase of the NSA renaissance in the early 16th century the daughter was not only a moment expert of import nobleman and leading citizens very often did receive an incredibly good education. It was almost as

though they separated out in their minds the fact that. This person is going to going to be eventually a breathing machine a child rearing machine from the idea that they ought to be well educated and all Henry's children. Mary also the elder daughter a very very well educated. I think the difference with Elizabeth is that she was brilliant being intelligent credibly receptive. So by Already 18 she's fluent in about five or six languages in English in Latin and ancient Greek in French and Italian some Spanish. And there's a wonderful remark by her tutor who happens to be one of the greatest teachers of the age a man called Roger Ascham in which he's reviewing her achievements. And there's a moment disliked his missus Innes when he said but spoken ancient Greek was only moderately good where she's fluent. She taught Latin as you and I speak English and continues to do so right to the end of her life.

Our guest this morning David Starkey he's a story and he's written several works on the Tudor period the one that we're talking about here this morning is his most recent which is titled Elizabeth the struggle for the throne it's published by Harper Collins he's spending some time in the United States talking about the book his home is in London. He's in Chicago and would to welcome questions the number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2. 9 4 5 5. Henry had three children by three different women Mary by his worst wife Catherine of Aragon Elizabeth by his second and Belinda and finally a boy Edward by his third wife Jane Seymour seems to be the case that while Henry was alive these three children got on rather well you know reasonably well I think they were always tentative that they're actually brought up together. It's the most surprising thing. Mary of course is much older than the other two. Mary's born in 15 16 as he's 17 years older than that is above. Elizabeth is four years older than Edward but they are brought up together away from

court. They spend most of that time together. They only go to court. Well Marian it's tough to go to court for 15 36. Elizabeth doesn't start to go to court until she's about 11. In 15 44 but I can say with that brother both of them both Mary and Elizabeth like Ed Wood and get on with him very well. We have between Mary and Elizabeth that he is obviously the tension that and I and Mary had been excluded from the SO. Session her mother had been divorced and humiliated all because of and the Lynn and Mary bitterly hate Berlin and she only stopped to forgive her after she's been executed. So there's always a tension between the two. And it is natural I think nowadays with any family of half siblings I mean children of different wives I think quite often have a problem in relating to each other particularly if one of them identifies with the mother as having been wrong. And what's very clear though Elizabeth doesn't particularly identify with and Bill and Mary completely identifies with

Catherine of arrogance so there's this resentment and it's intensified because both Mary and Elizabeth symbolize different religious positions Mary is. Recommitted and you have to be committed to the Catholic religion. Elizabeth is a symbol of the Reformation symbolize a symbol of religious change and so added to the personal tensions as a religious one but they do rub along well and one might expect that when Edward was born the same thing happened to Elizabeth has happened to Mary before her you would think that maybe there would there would be some common cause there between the two of them. Well yes except that the one thing they do as everybody did in the 16th century is accept that the boy should come first. I think everybody can expect Edwards position because first of all the marriage between Henry and Jane Seymour is undoubtedly a valid marriage.

Henry had made sure of that by executing him beforehand so if he doesn't marry wafty could already be so it's hell to be married to somebody else. And also because everybody recognized that the boy automatically comes first in the succession. This isn't the modern world in that sense there's no notion of equality between men and women. When Henry died his son Edward came to the throne he was only 10. Elizabeth received what seemed to be for the time rather genuineness and a generous annual income. The promise of a dowry if she should marry should then she went to live with Henry's last wife Katherine Parr and her husband Thomas Seymour who seem to show a rather unhealthy interest in his teenage stepdaughter. And in fact when Katherine Parr died Seymour decided that his way to power was to marry Elizabeth and perhaps that actually would have happened had he not been charged with treason and executed Elizabeth. Through this whole

episode gether was was lucky not to have been implicated herself. Well she was implicated because I'm afraid the unhealthy interest is very real and that there are these extraordinary incidents. I kind of think she will play this one in which Catherine Elizabeth is behind her back while Thomas Seymour cuts a dress off with a knife. And we know. That that actually happened. We do it because we have in fact traditionally investigation you remember you you mentioned that Seymour was charged with treason. That's exactly the same as having a special prosecutor turned on you nowadays in the U.S. every single thing that you have ever done is scrutinized everybody who's ever talked to you is interrogated. And all the documents survive as you can imagine the papers are electrifying. And they become more fair once Elizabeth is queen and they're seen as being so sensitive that her first minister William sessile

actually weeds them from the state archives. I mean that that taken out of the files and he takes them all home with him. She will survive by the parent. Now as a teenager even in relatively young age. Dad had enough self-control to hold herself together through this and apparently even when she was told that that Seymour Seymour had been beheaded she didn't show any concern about the emotional reaction. Oh yes. Hi Well yes I mean what she doesn't do she doesn't sort of fling herself from weeping and wailing and say oh my god I mean her first instinct of self-preservation quite understandably. I mean how do I save myself from getting involved in this mess. And what she says all the time is that she admits that these incidents took place. She admitting to having strong feelings of Seymour. She even admits that she would have liked to Americ him off to Catherine palls death but what she does emphasize is she would have only done this by going through the

proper forms of seeking permission from the king and the council which is what's laid out in the terms of her father's will. What is really striking though David about it is the way in which she keeps control of the situation the way in which she understands the strategy to avoid being really badly damaged is this legal pot legal a sticking point about I wouldn't have got married without permission. She sticks by that and then the moment she senses the situation is swinging in her favor you can see her going on the attack and she's really concerned about the damage that's done to her public. The protection you can imagine rumors start circulating that she's pregnant by Seymour and whatever and she's she writes to Seymour's brother the Lord Protector a man called Edward Seymour the Duke of Somerset she writes in look these rumors a terrible they must be stopped some effect writes back and says Fine tell me who's printing them and I'll deal with them. And Elizabeth says Oh you don't want me actually to name people if I'm seen to be naming people and

get them punished that will make me unpopular. If she says it will get me it will cause me to lose the favor of the people. And this is 16 year old girl and you see her already aware of the crucial role of popularity of reputation of how you handle public image I mean it is as though she had a you know Madison Avenue image consultant whispering into her in 16 that extraordinary. Well it is. And I suppose that that has something to do with being raised in this this political hothouse atmosphere that must have been a court life. That's terrifying I mean in which on the one he's a bit I suppose like being you know a dot com millionaire now if he had the sense of incredible excitement of being literally at the cutting edge except the cutting edge then also involved being the execution acts. And it's an incredibly risky would. And Elizabeth is brought up with extraordinary insecurity. I mean royal children nowadays we look at the children of Queen Elizabeth the Second that

brought up with immense security material security security of the succession and Elizabeth is completely the opposite. And what I try to say in my book is this tremendous sense of insecurity of not knowing whether you will live out any particular day of not knowing who will be in power from one moment to the next is this and how she coped with it. That actually makes it such an extraordinary great politician and such a great mover. And you also suggest it's this whole business with Thomas Seymour that was a very important turning point in her life was really her transition. Into adulthood I think it is. I mean it's obviously a pretty horrible way to encounter sex for the first time. But what seems to happen is that all the men she finds attractive in the future look like Thomas Seymour the same physical type that told that poor child that whole been had. It's as though he establishes the ideal man or

ideal type of manhood. And of course all of them and in the same way that the seem more offended sometimes an execution always a ball to flee then then they never turn into marriage. It's a pattern which constantly repeats itself. She it would it would seem that for her the issue of her autonomy not just in the the royal sense but perhaps in all senses that for her was a lifelong issue and when one asked this question why is it that she never married. That seems to be the that seems to be the answer that is she wasn't interested in sharing power with anybody. I think that's one of the concerns I mean. I think Elizabeth David is actually split on the idea of marriage. I mean on the one hand it's clear she's immensely jealous of power and authority and riches and autonomy I mean it's as you hinted this enormous fortune that she's left by her father is really conditional on the fact that he doesn't marry she's given what amounts to sort of

five English counties to the north or to the northwest of London is a huge fortune and she's 20 houses she enters London at tended by two or three thousand people a house in London. It's from a Fed house which is grander and more modern than the King's own palace. But all of this goes. The moment she marries and so you can see her sense of of a lot of possible loss. And equally she is has the affair with with Seymour demonstrates she is very highly saying all this stuff about her you know not being gynecologic clean normal or whatever is nonsense we we know the result of medical examinations they all say she is normal. We know that the women don't gossip and say oh she's not having periods or whatever she does. So she's a perfectly ordinary healthy woman with a normal interest in men. And there's this terrible tension between her desire to exercise power and authority and her desire to

have a man. And she sees of course in the case of her sis. We've talked a little bit about Mary when Mary becomes queen. The thing that destroys Mary is the fight of her womanhood. The five she marries an unsuitable man that she has a phantom pregnancy which leads to complete humiliation that she's deserted by a husband and deserted by power it's it's how a woman destroys. And Elizabeth I think looms from the back and decides I'm not going to do it. But it's a terrible price I think. And she turns into a bitter old maid because of it. Well again let's introduce the guest this morning in this our focus 580 We're speaking with historian David Starkey he's fellow Fitzwilliam College Cambridge and has written a number of works on the Tudor period in England including the reign of Henry the Eighth and the English court from the wars of the roses to the Civil War. His most recent is a Biography of Elizabeth the first titled Elizabeth the struggle for the throne published

by Harper Collins. He's in Chicago has been spending some time in the United States talking about the book and he will be giving a talk and a reading at the University of Chicago bookstore at 4:30 this afternoon. That's at 9:00 70 east. Fifty eighth. So if you're in Chicago and you would like to hear more from the guest you can attend and of course questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9. Four five five. Elizabeth did at least earlier her live have relations with men. That is there were men who were interested in her and one of those that you write about in the book was Robert Dudley the Earl of Leicester who apparently was someone much in the mold of Thomas Seymour as as you suggest someone that maybe had things gone differently they might have married. Tell us about Robert Dudley. Well he is the son of John Dudley the Duke of Northumberland

who takes over the government of England Fred with the six off to the full of it would seem all because Elizabeth again one of the elements in it is a bit of that that I constantly emphasize. She had incredibly good luck after that dreadful incident with Thomas Seymour in CMOS execution. His elder brother the man who brought him down and humiliated Elizabeth he loses power right quickly. And Elizabeth becomes flavor of the month with this new regime headed up by John Dudley and one of John Douglas some is Robert Dudley. And later on of Les and he is brought up with the royal children. He's he forms part of Edward's household and is Edward's household is on the same that's King Edward's household. Prince Edward's household and of that household is under the same roof. Elizabeth there are very close contacts with them that go right right back to the days when their children. And when Elizabeth becomes queen in 15 58 Dudley has a position which is called Master of the horse. That's to say he's in charge of the royal

stables which then obviously has the horses the basic mode of transport is very important but much more important than that. Obviously when you have a queen the whole way in which the Royal Household sequent of the White House staff is organized is different. The postal attendants who do the most personal things like dressing and undressing and helping at the toilets and whatever obviously have to be women. Whereas normally they would be men and the closest post the one that's the closest personal attendant on the Queen is the master of the horse. And this job is given to Robert Dudley. And very quickly they shift from being royal mistress and servant to something that looks very much like lover and mistress and they behave very freely in public you know that touching kissing that helping hands. And you know as you can imagine in the the room a milch trance furiously and nobody will ever know whether they had sex or not I mean it's one of the reasons why. But it's such a magnificent figure of mystery and there are all these unanswered questions about her and

one of them is because she really is the kitchen the guest that-I have come up with and it is only a guess but there's quite a lot of evidence for it is that they did have sex but it's like President Clinton and he had it with her but she didn't have it with him. But it it's a wonderful story. Her younger brother Edward was not on the throne very long after his death. Then her older sister Mary became queen and she was the daughter of Catherine of Aragon and was Catholic so here this created a great deal of tension between the two women because they in a sense represented those two different faiths and the struggle for which one would be the official face of the country during this time. Mary was on the throne. Elizabeth had to be very careful about what sort of public face she showed. But what was she indeed though actively involved in attempts to overthrow her older half

sister. I think she probably was. I mean there's no doubt whatever she had some involvement in them. She is of course incredibly careful in contrast to Mary Queen of Scots when she sees when Elizabeth is Queen Mary Queen of Scots just silly things like putting. Instructions on paper to Madrid Elizabeth Elizabeth is five to seven. Everything she does is on the deniable basis some. Ambiguous messages find letters all this kind of thing. But I think she is involved. And certainly Mary thinks that she is involved and marries. Company determined to execute she would have liked to kill her. She sees Elizabeth as the great risk to making England safe for the Roman Catholic Church. And there's an enormous rebellion because this is not only a quarrel between the two sisters It splits the country and there's a great rebellion in Kent which is to the southeast of London which actually gets into the capital itself.

It's defeated but it's a very close run thing left as a discovered communications are discovered between the leaders of the rebellion and Elizabeth and between Elizabeth from the French ambassador who have been backing the revote because of course Mary looks to Spain and the two great rival international powers that period of France and Spain and England as a kind of dog between the bone between two dogs fought over between them and and Mary is so convinced that Elizabeth has been involved that she has her arrested and imprisoned in the tower accused of treason. She's taken into the tower past the great menagerie of roaring lions at the entrance to the tower and from that moment on was you always describes himself as Daniel in the Lion's Den. And she goes further into the tower past the scaffold on which Jane Grey is just been executed and she's looks at and says is that for me. And then she's imprisoned not in a dungeon as the legend has it but actually in the room in which mother and been imprisoned before her death. It's

awful psychological torture but you know and she reacts badly. I mean she gives me grain she has strange psychosomatic swellings but she keeps literally keeps her head I mean she keeps control of her emotions. She she plays the game she fends off the inquisitors she never never ever incriminate herself. And finally is released. But but still held in on the house arrest for another 12 minutes. It's an awful story. You've literally within a whisker of death she this is this was why it's rebellion was loved by many. Thomas Wyatt who himself was there the revolt did not succeed if he was executed. And then she as you say she was in prison it's again that seems to be rather remarkable stroke of luck there that somehow during all of that that Elizabeth wasn't. That some some shred of evidence or maybe even you wouldn't have needed any. It wasn't produced in that face the same would have faced the same fate as Wyatt and her mother and a lot of other people who play I mean I think that what is important to

realize is that even in the two day period they needed some sort of evidence I mean you couldn't just do it. ABA travelling at the moment in England then no more than the president of the United States now couldn't condemn somebody to death to have to be a trial. There isn't we don't we didn't use political assassination or murder at that period. There have to be a trial there was a jury the jury had somehow to be persuaded. And it's very clear that nobody would have been persuaded to execute to the fan. And that certainty builds up and builds up and builds up and Mary herself is because they're resentful about it we know because she talks about it the Spanish ambassador a monk called Seema and who is her confidant and you know she says. I'm convinced of her guilt but we can't pin it on her and you can sense the frustration I mean one of the really interesting things about the relationship between the two Ha sisters is that Mary constantly is dealt what looks like an absolute winning

hand. You know she becomes queen. It looks as though she's got charges against Elizabeth will eliminate and always Elizabeth escapes always she slips away. We have a couple of callers to bring into the conversation another. Who are listening are certainly welcome I'd like to ask question. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 we also have toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us and that is eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5 will start with someone in Bloomington Indiana. Line number four right here. Hello. Hi could I could I ask your your guest to comment on Elizabeth. How how the how some some developments in history that occurred outside of the control of Queen Elizabeth effected her success now. Obviously she she ruled over the culture and cultural and artistic flowering in England. But let me let me name some things that were also happening. The Renaissance was happening didn't she benefit from the renaissance that comment on the

Renaissance the binocular of English from that came the printing press Shakespeare Sir Francis Drake and Mick could comment on those things one of the times the starting with the Renaissance. Will Elizabeth did indeed benefit from the Renaissance we've already talked about the extraordinary education that she received the whole idea of that kind of education and particularly giving it to a woman is a development of of of the Renaissance itself. And her connections with it are very very close. I mean obviously she couldn't go to university as a woman. I mean that doesn't happen in England really until the 19th the end of the 19th century. But Elizabeth has the next best thing all the tutors belong to a single Cambridge college. My own university I'm proud to say and I'm drawn for college which is the real cutting edge institution. And interestingly enough many of her leading advisers and ministers both when she was young and when she's an adult also come from some drums or a kind of close knit intellectual group and Elizabeth benefited enormously

from that. But she can only benefit from it because she's very intelligent. I mean it's not just something that's actually given to her. Your other point point about the development of English as a vernacular in other words the use of English rather than Latin is also very important. But remember that key development happens a little bit earlier. It happens in the reign of her father. It's 110 V8 decides to create an english. National Church and that you get this immense emphasis on English as a great European language. But you start that you put the Bible into English that you put the Book of Common Prayer into English that you come up with this wonderful liturgy of the church in English. Now Elizabeth encounters that directly in this period of you we're talking about. And she I mention briefly to David she she doesn't really come to court until she's 11 the first time she spends a lot of time in court as at the age of 11 in 15 44 and by coincidence this is the first year that Thomas Cranmer who is also her

godfather is actually translating parts of the church service into English. And we even know the date on which Catherine Parr the Queen Regent because Henry's gone off to fight a war in France actually acquires the copies of what's called the litany in the prayers of intersession and moments of tension. We actually know when she first acquires a copy of the litany in English and we know Elizabeth uses it and we know it is a bit becomes deeply deeply committed to it and this sense of an English nationalism based on the English Church and the English language in the English sense of nationhood is of course the thing that Elizabeth exploits is one of the real fundamental bases of her rule. Constantly going on you see a mother is English mostly Queens the foreign Of course. Mary's mother is a Spaniard. Elizabeth says you know I've got an English father I've got an English mother. Amir in fisheye and Meir in 16th century English means completely and absolutely English and she plays this for what it's worth I mean

the way she's able to arouse Patra TISM the defending against the Spanish attack of the Spanish Armada the great speech that she makes it to will break. It invokes both the things we've been talking about it invokes the Renaissance and the wonderful colored use of language but it's given in English it arouses these English passions you know and I have the body of a weak and feeble woman but I have the stomach of a king and a king you know that the think foul scorn that Palmer and the foreign prince of Spain you know should venture against my dominions is wonderful stuff I mean she talks as well as a Shakespearean speech is written apparently. There was a there was a kind of a combination. She was just the right person at the right time yet the right time because at the same time they had a binocular but the printing press here and the government of course again yet again what's striking is you know Elizabeth has this

incredible almost modern awareness of anything to do with propaganda. I'm just putting together a big. Exhibitions of 2003 on Elizabeth for the anniversary of her death incidentally there will be another one in Chicago at the Newberry Library. But I mind will be in London and I was talking to a friend of mine who is the head of the math department at the British Museum and you can imagine a British Library and you can imagine maps of very very important in this period with exploration and all the rest of it. And I was saying to him does Elizabeth have any interest. He said no and then he thought again he said Oh yes she does. If it can be used for propaganda and of course the maps are printed. And so she's got this brilliant sense of propaganda portrayed friend graved. Government propaganda is printed because the government controls the printing press. It's it it is a remarkable period. But I think also just finally you talked about cultural flowering I think very often these moments of intense

political crisis like the Reformation like Elizabeth restoration of Protestantism do lead to an immense artistic flowering. We tend to think of the arts flourishing in peace. I don't think they do. I think they flourish when there's real tension when they're absolutely radical debates and disagreements. Very interesting. Thank you for the call. It certainly it's also seems to be the case that not only was she did you know the power of propaganda she had a talent for what today we would call spin. I think there. There's there's I'm thinking of the of the famous story when she came to the throne and she was going through the street and a man an old man in the crowd turned his back on her and cried and she singled him out and said look the man is overcome with joy. It's wonderful. He's crying tears of joy. Yes and clearly he was that was not his that was not the emotion that he was experiencing at the time I don't think that. But she what is striking in fact I was David I was here

last weekend when the inaugural which is a kind of coronation of the president and it was instructive just looking at the contrast between Bush's inaugural procession going up Pennsylvania and Elizabeth which went through the streets of London from the tower right through to to Westminster a much longer route than just up Pennsylvania Avenue. And whereas you had the president you know in a bulletproof limousine that looked you know heavier than a tank and I gather Actually it is bullet proof glass everywhere. This is completely separate going to motorcycle outriders is complete separation between a president who is supposedly created by popular election. That we do know of the problems in this case. And Elizabeth a moment by divine right deliberately exposes himself to the people she's carried in an open lid. He's wide open to the people on every side. They come up they press. And every time she receives one she's got just the right mix in the phrase and rather

than the the American inaugural which is just a spectacle there's no interplay between the president and those in the parade. And in the case of Elizabeth's possession the whole thing is a dialogue between Elizabeth and her people. And he just brought home to me that that we think you know you think Stephanie royal government doesn't respond to the people republican government good elected by the people. If you looked at those if you compare those two events you read them completely opposite you have a president who seems frightened of the people and doesn't interchange and the mamak who opens himself to tourists. We have a little less than 10 minutes our guest is David Starkey he's historian. His book Elizabeth the struggle for the throne is published by HarperCollins if you'd like to read it and we have another caller here standing by in Clay City sell go there line number. Well yes you've talked about the things that have influence that influenced Elizabeth.

What what came down from her reign I mean every Monarch takes from the next morning a little bit of what they did and adds to it or changes it. What what influence did she have is there anything that would come down to day that I would recognize is the tradition that she started or or something like that. I know he's talked a little bit on the subject specifically is there anything that you can point a finger and say well we do this today because Elizabeth did this. Thank you. Oh good question. Well we listen to Shakespeare at entry I mean she didn't write Shakespeare but the events over which she presided at the shaping moments in our culture. The whole idea of an English Empire an overseas empire its first formulated under Elizabeth I mean it's a saying doesn't it. Actually happen as I'm sure you know better than I do. The column is which which was started under Elizabeth work Roanoke Noi and all the rest of it but immediately in the next reign that idea on the dreams the first that idea is put into practice but I think the most important thing about it is about the most important legacy if you like

is is the myth of the golden A. Within a few years of her death when the official the new official version of the Bible is produced on the James the First King James Bible the preface just talks about Elizabeth and it refers to a fat bright Occidental star Queen Elizabeth the famous memory and you already have that sense of myth and and that myth that mythic sense of England's ideal age which goes on from generation to generation. And it's so powerful that even at the beginning of the reign of Queen Elizabeth the Second Ah present moment there was talk which unfortunately has not been fulfilled of the new Elizabeth and age. So is Elizabeth finally as a mistress of myth. She she she the great creator of legend and I think that. Love and I mean there is a great achievement to political stability. She hands all to James the first against all expectations. A unified realm a

monarchy at least a strong wish he'd inherited. She does all that but I think what's more important and why after all we're talking about her. If she hands him a missile we have another caller here from a car phone line number two. Hello hi there. Yes I'm really enjoying the conversation today. I want to ask a little bit about Elizabeth's relationship with Mary Queen of Scots. I've read many many biographies I haven't read your book yet but I will as soon as I can get hold of it and a lot of times I think you split 50/50 on whether or not Elizabeth really led Mary to marrying Henry Darnley. Some authors seem to indicate that she sort of that's sort of what she wanted and she offered Dudley in place so she could kind of leader through it and get married react badly and marry him. Other people think I will marry a livable and marry one of her subjects. What is your view on.

I think it's the second which is the case as far as I understand it and I hasten to say in my book I'm there for the period on which I've done the most recent research is just before the one that we're talking about now is in the run up to her accession to the throne but the work that I've done on the Dudley Dudley and Elizabeth it suggests two things. Elizabeth is serious about offering doubly as Mary's house but Dudley is appalled. The fault in the idea of going off from being you know a great favorite of the English court to Scotland which is is you know it's in sequence of going to Albatross something I mean it's a million miles from anywhere it's poor. He doesn't. Want to do it and it seems to be Dudley who actually gets commission for Henry Donnelly to be allowed to go up to Scotland. But it is a bit he is genuinely appalled that Mary marries him and she is of course even more appalled when Mary goes on and is complicit in his murder. And even

more appalled when Mary then marries the man who has organized his murder Bothwell was also raped. And I think that really we've talked a lot about the relations between Elizabeth and the sister Mary with Mary is the kind of model of how not to be a queen. The other model of how not to be a queen is Mary Queen of Scots. I mean who is a disaster. Right. And when she comes to England you know immediately flings herself into plotting against Elizabeth because again contra to the romantic legend of I'm sure some of the books that you read on Mary Mary Queen of Scots The one thing that Mary Queen of Scots is not interested in is Scotland. She'd been born to be Queen of France and then her husband dies prematurely and she leaves France with tears streaming down her face. And the moment she gets to Scotland all she's interested in doing is plotting to succeed to the English throne. And the amazing thing is Elizabeth put up with it and they only wait 20 years before she removes her. I mean I think. He shows extraordinary

patients tolerance. I would say she was the Saint Elizabeth's with me isn't that but again she has this terrific reluctance actually to use violence as a solution to political problems. Well thank you very much. All right thank you. We appreciate the call. It just is a way of finishing up I think that when people think of the image of Elizabeth perhaps they've seen portraits perhaps also they they think of various portrayals in film but it is probably the image that we think of it as Elizabeth in her maturity of the cover of your book features a painting that's also reproduced in the book that shows Elizabeth as a teenage girl and apparently it was a painting that she had done. For her father and I think you you said that you were very struck by the image and thinking about her at this time of her life and in fact that when you first saw this picture you didn't think much of it in and it was only when you realized that it

this was Elizabeth that you perhaps then started thinking of looking a little bit more at this period. That's right. I mean when I first saw the picture I actually I think it's a beautiful beautiful painting. Stunning. And but I didn't record I mean the point was not that I didn't think much of it. I didn't recognize it. I didn't recognize that this was a little bit because she looks so completely different from you know the figure with the great piled up week and painted out face and the fantastic dresses. Is this the simple unmade up rather intense teenage go. And what I wanted to do was to try to understand how that became the great Queen. And that's what this book is doing is exploring the girl behind that picture and trying to do so with new material and a freshness in the bubble. The use of eye witnesses who saw all the events that we've been talking about well we must stop here because we've come to the end of the time. The book we've been talking about is Elizabeth the struggle for the throne published by Harper Collins by David Starkey. Mr.

Starkey thank you very much for talking with us. And thank you David.