Focus 580; Divisions in the United States Influencing the 2004 Elections

Good morning and welcome to focus 580. This is our morning to our program my name is David inch. Glad to have you with us. In the first hour of the program today we will talk a little bit about how America breaks down in terms of values and how that may be likely to influence people as they decide who they'd like to vote for in the presidential election this year and in part we'll be talking about the survey that was done in late last year by the Zogby company International a very well known big public and public opinion survey research firm. And what they did was they went out and they took a look at attitudes of people in those states that in the election of 2000 either had gone for President Bush or those who had gone for Vice President Gore. In the shorthand. These are called the red states and the blue states. Because when you see those maps on television and they show you which state went for which candidate they color one red and one blue. And they went out there and they surveyed their attitudes on a number of subjects

and interestingly enough or perhaps you would say not surprising. It looks as if the way that the country was divided up last time in 2000 and it hasn't changed that we still have a very divided country and we'll be talking a little bit about the survey results worth. Our guest this morning in this part of focus 580 His name is John Kenneth White. He's a consultant to the international and in fact has written an analysis of that values poll. He's professor of politics at the Catholic University of America and he is also the author of a book titled The values divide American politics and culture in transition that's published by Chatham House Publishers and in his analysis. He starts this way and I think it's a nice way to put it. He notes the fact that the motto of the United States is that's a Latin phrase and it translates as out of many one. He writes however that today that motto should be rephrased to read Pluribus Duro or out of many. 2

he says that that very the one that we'll talk about shows a nation that is deeply divided by party ideology. The presidency of George W. Bush and most importantly by values. In fact he goes on to state that not since the Civil War and post reconstruction has America been as divided as it is today. As we talked with John Kenneth White of course questions are welcome from people who are listening. We ask only that people are brief and we ask that so that we can keep the program moving get as many different calls as possible. But if you like to call in and be a part of the conversation you were certainly welcome to do that. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have a toll free line that's good anywhere that you can hear us. And that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 again 3 3 3 w. rial L. or 9 4 5 5. That's where champagne Urbana and then toll free 800 to 2 to WLM professor right. Hello. Thank you for

having me. Well thanks for talking with us will you. We certainly appreciate it. And I guess I want to make sure that that you think basically that I've got it right here to start out at least if we talk about where America seems to be today and draw some comparisons between where America seemed to be in 2000 the last time we had a presidential race. It was very divided then. It's very divided now and it doesn't seem to have changed very much. Well I think that's absolutely right. You know it's a mini 9/11. Changed Everything. The vice president talked about the new normal. But what if so we Marco Polo about this president and it's of ministration that infidel we've had changing events in some ways like September 11th 2001 to political divisions keep coming back to where they were and it is it is absolutely the most

remarkable remarkable thing. I just as a footnote I'm and I do yes I beat people did their recent national survey this week looking at our troops Bush's approval rating and reelect numbers and they are right back to where they were prior to the capture of Saddam Hussein which had to be about. And after e. Well I'm interested in perhaps doing a very quick look at the poll results and I guess that on the on the read side of things that is the Republican side or maybe we don't want to use a party label we just say these were the states where people supported the president where those states went for the president. If you look at those people and you look at their attitudes about a number of things it seems that they are remarkably consistent. They they support the president. They support the war on terror.

They believe in things like the importance of religion in public life. They are opposed to the idea of same sex marriage. They're opposed to abortion that is you know if you if you looked at some of those things that without meaning to sound to preserve it it sure would have you would say are the litmus kind of issues of whether you're a Republican a Democrat or whether you're a left or right or liberal or conservative it seems that these folks in the red states those that voted for President Bush in 2000 supported him. And the take the conservative position on all of these issues particularly the values issues right down the line. Absolutely right. And the way I would describe it. First the red state voters are much more likely to be members of the Republican Party than the blue. Or States she said that much more likely to attend church and be in a church pew whatever their denomination is on on a Sunday morning and I think when it comes to

values the way I would describe them as that people believe in absolute truth and other words there is a right and wrong. And even we know that our country's values have changed significantly in my last 30 or 40 years or so whether we talk about race relations or women working than ever before and even when it comes to the right day to day except for some of those changes that have to be pounded if you will by respect for traditional institutions and traditional values. These red state voters really do believe that there is a right and a right. And there needs to be respect for that even though they may profess to be to be tolerant. There is something else that to me is seems very striking when you look at the poll results when you look at the particularly when you look at the responses of the people in the red

states versus the responses in the people in the the blue states and when you ask particular kinds of questions they asked about how people felt about the Clintons and they asked about the legitimacy of the president they asked about the war on terror. If for example here we'll pick one and here they were asked. It's about the the policy on Iraq and whether or not people favored the idea of you know how they felt about the world where they thought there was a right policy and so forth. And if you for example you look at the red states that the people that supported the president the majority of the people there basically say they support the president although there are some people who who disagree. And on all of those sort of bedrock issues if you look at the Republicans there is some some disagreement but mostly people seem to support the president and take the kinds of positions on these issues that you would expect. To me what I think is really interesting is what happens when you look at the blue states.

These were the people that before the states where they went for Al Groh where presumably here we're talking about Democrats or people who lean Democrats and they're on the blue side things are on many of these issues. Things are much more evenly divided. So it seems that Number two we have a divided country but at least on the on the blue side the Democrat side there's a there's much more diversity of opinion on these issues as if it seems like the people on that side they're not as sure about what they think and what they believe then are. The Republicans have a right after which approval rating up to 50 percent which is get it back down that night and come up. The rack in the in the blue states are stacked. Again I've gone back to vs three fathom insane levels

absolutely right and I think what's going on is that you know like minded people like to associate with like minded people. I am one of them. Thanks I'll be found via rap when I was at Woodstock. But as follows If you got your news and information from Fox News for example we found a Fox News viewer supported the Iraq war no matter what. If hundreds of American casualties. They were unshakeable after what thousands of. Please American and Iraqi civilian or military they were unacceptable and I bow to what questions you posed to him that would stop the news for our viewers. Standing with President Bush no matter what happens. I mean I think he and CBS used a few words. ABC News viewers watch

ABC particularly which tends to do better in some of the blue states where they would lend support. Now we don't have that kind of pure liberal media Taft in the survey from that period where you know it would be that very identifiable strong liberal media outlets would be Rush Limbaugh I mean for sort of thing. I suspect that if we had badly would have found the fame of a fame thing. And so what we what I think is going on is that we have really two very separate trains each. Well you know each American. Yeah well I guess I'm saying I don't mean to belabor this point but I think look for example at some of the values issues not not so much political or at least in terms of national security but if you for example one of the questions was asked had to do with the issue of same

sex marriage and then they asked people well they presented them with two statements Stephen A and B and statement goes like this regarding marriage with the question they asked was regarding marriage which of the two statements comes closer to your opinion. Either governments recognize a civil union between two persons of the same sex or government should only recognize marriage between a man and a woman. The people in the red states these are the Bush people 70 percent of them said that government should only recognize marriage between a man and woman. But if you go over there and look on the blue side on the Gore side there was a much more a much more. It's one distribution where those 55 percent of those people actually said government should only recognize marriage between men and women and 42 percent recognized agree with that other statement that you know government should recognize civil union between two people of the same sex. And it seems like here there's an example A and I don't think it's exactly unusual. On one of these values issues where the Republicans seem to be

much more of one mind than the Democrats and I would analyze that. I think what's going on in the blue states is that voters like they're more rowdy Ritson off eating my my reality is for me but not necessarily for you. Happy to tell you my values my family life and my sexual preferences. And son but that no one should derive any kind of lesson from that. I did at me as I said baby like more reality writ small and that that up to gay rights were the overriding value is really I think time. Current would be ideal marriage which would be the idea of civil unions. Very comfortable with the

Vermont Massachusetts run through civil union. Marriage should be promoted to do that. One of the sort of abiding bits of conventional wisdom about politics is that people maybe talk about ideology a lot but when they vote they vote their pocketbooks. They're interested in the economic impact of politics and how decisions made on the national level affect them. If you if you perhaps set aside and I think this poll also tried to do this if you tried to kind of set aside economic it set aside some of the more ideological issues and for a moment and look at those where you can ask this question about how it is that the policy of the administration has affected people in a very direct way and perhaps in terms of their economic situation is one of the most direct ways you can think of how that influences what people say and whether or not they support the administration

and its policies if you try to find out you know who's doing well and who's not. And then you know maybe again there you go. You wouldn't really be surprised to find out. If you break things down that way who it is that thinks that it is supportive of the president who is not. Well let me let me try to answer your question this way. I think that there are two interesting elements at work one is the economy. Am I doing am I better off than I was four years ago. For example. And I want to play that kind of thinking about the importance of the economy really does date back to the New Deal period. And not surprisingly that Bennett country was in a Great Depression and the Democratic policies of Franklin Roosevelt seem to be working. It's not surprising that the economy would. What matter most and certainly the Democrats captured control of

that issue. Now that he began to move back in the 1960s I did not 1955 under Eisenhower and especially in the late 1960s and 1970s arson and unemployment but the era of 980 began to be there. There was such a dominant position on the economy and they haven't been game back to the extent of the New Deal period. And that happened I think when you ask this question about values. We actually don't have plumbing question so I don't value isn't so. 1977 early 1980s were surprisingly during the Reagan Terry at the Democrats actually meet on a values question in terms of protecting traditional family values which is really a legacy. But once a values question from the 1990s and

recently and one of the separations here and spend between the economy and. Family and a value is divided between the parties on the other. Since I've found that values do indeed matter most and that if I cared for a party or a candidate to get a hearing on economic question the voter first have to believe or feel that a candidate or party evaluates now at the same time and once they can achieve that level then it's how do you make those values more real in people's lives. I'm awakened with the first of many values a lot of speeches he talked about family work neighborhood peace and freedom that Americans respond to him responded I don't need to. Values rhetoric but a proud faced one in 1984 when people believed that they were

being. It can't buy its programs Spouter used in every Clinton speech. There was opportunity community and responsibility. Thank family values over and over again. It was fighting specific values that Clinton wanted to recant and during his presidency. And so for me acceptance speech to the farewell speech you get the same recitation of values over and over again. It's happened in the case above it that he'll wait in the polls. You would think he would be given the state of the economy given the country. But I think particularly in the red states is that voters there believe that he shares their values and their lifestyle.

And it has to fight with him. It's not really I guess one of the things that I have that seems also to be one of those bits of conventional wisdom about politics is that the two parties people see them as having different personalities and having different strengths and weaknesses and that generally speaking when people feel that the security of the country is at stake they are more likely to turn to a Republican because they think the Republicans are better at that. But when that's not the issue when their primary concern is say social economic issues that they are likely to turn to the Democrats because they think that the Democrats are better at that at that and that would suggest that perhaps maybe the reason that there is the high level for the president is the continuing concerns about terrorism and that that people do feel that the security of the country is at stake. And when that's you know when one things I like that you need a Republican that's what people seem to think that Chris Matthews is wonderful right now if he were the Republicans. If the daddy party the party that's going to protect us. I democrats not the mommy party and the party that's going to provide care and comfort. I

may yet social and social justice and economic questions that you describe. I think there's something to that but I but I also believe very strongly that when we answer these polling questions in terms of true church W Bush shares your values and as you know in this recent survey we actually had a question about the Clinton and we found a big difference between being red and blue states. I should be counted blue states what we're likely to think that they shared the values and somebody by Bill and Hillary Clinton in the red states were decidedly turned off by that. I think again to share your values questions is really important I think it. But Bush it certainly played him in 2000 and to address their terrorism I agree. Agree with what you're saying but I think there's this other dimension to it that's very important. Well let me introduce Again our guest we have a caller and we'll get right to and welcome others. We're talking

with John Kenneth White He's Professor of Politics at the Catholic University of America. He's also a consultant to Zogby International a big polling firm and he did a commentary analysis of the results of this poll that we have been talking about that was done by Zogby in December looking at the attitudes of people in those states that either had supported President Bush or Vice President Gore in the presidential race in 2000. He argues that as Professor White argues that the country was very divided then it continues to be very divided now particularly on values issues and that things perhaps haven't changed very much over the last four years. Jones are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 1 9 4 5 5 years corner in Chicago to talk with our line for Joe. Good morning. Just wondering if your polling is not really looking at values but really it's social opinion and I have two reasons for saying that

you think values are deeply held and rational well thought out or thought over through traditional religious beliefs are. And it's something with a value the capture of Saddam Hussein should not have affected anyone's values the second point is brings to mind. Yesterday when Mr. Bush made a phone call saying that he held a life sacred and accepted this even though we know as governor he oversaw several executions many of which were questionable and the policy of preemptive war which has killed at least 5000 innocent Afghanis I mean but somewhere there's some problem with calling these things value if people do not question a statement like that where I could accept if that was your social opinion because socially it is acceptable to fear people who threaten your society. I don't know I just. I find it very hard to accept that these are values because there

doesn't seem to be anything deeply thought out in any of this. I can accept all this as opinion along with the attitude of go along to get along. But let me let me respond to you this way. First Rob the capture sediments ain't it. If it devalues it would serve me in a vamp and people are going to respond to that of now but when we look at opinion when there are really two components one is beliefs that is a Baptist and people accept them or know them about the world that they're that they're observing and second it's values. Abortion is both a social issue as you said and as you suggest but it also has a values component where one fagots the respect for for life and the valuing of life from for the other side. It's the idea of freedom of choice. But we what makes this country I think really unique it's that each of the red states and blue states but I am about to

answer the question what does it mean to be an American. And. But when I answer that question me I often answer in terms of values that is a right to be free are to exercise our freedoms a belief in equality of opportunity for the individual to judge me as a person and not on the basis of race or anything else. That's the profound question for Americans to answer but gave us some easy answers to that because we could say we're not communists and in fact believe that talk of a red state divide during the Cold War period. It's something of an anomaly because politics did stop at the water's edge and under a club where our values I think have a stance on it. Phenomena because they really go to very different

answers to this notion of what it means to be an American and they do have different answers to values that I've just described like freedom. I think quality of opportunity like individualism. Right. It's a good example of that because it takes both. Same basic values but interpret them quite differently. And I don't see where you're testing the idea of value it seems to me that in any examination you would question the person further that the person that that they are respected all life there should be two questions in there one. Do you support are you pro-choice or pro-life. Are you against capital punishment for capital punishment. Are you against war for war. I mean just sort of try to understand get some sort of qualitative examination of this question of value because just saying that you hold all life they create and then think that capital punishment is all right and and war is fine. It seems to me that

you're not bad measurement of same. This person holds us as a value will not have any predictive power because if you're thinking that that person holds life sacred and therefore they will not vote a certain way you're going to be wrong. Well we didn't. I just stand exactly what you're saying. And the survey of course we did ask about abortion we asked about the death penalty. But what I think comes up over and over and over again I think it's a value sort of lifestyle question regarding church attendance or marriage or having children at home. A degree of commitment to face and when we have those kinds of questions as well if you have one for you just indicated we kept the same kind of divisions that are happening over and over and over again and putting every fact that the marriage gap that we've seen in 2003

is tremendous and we see more married people by the way in the red states than in the states between different. By church attendance here. So we live in a country would have significantly different lifestyles if you will in these red or blue states. And we're finding again these differences that are extending it into the 2004 presidential election. People will take issues like abortion and the death penalty where a right is a value in rhyme. But in the death penalty it's over right written if you will by people I think in the red states. But the sense of justice on the other. So wait hold competing values if you will. And and I've been trying to do this is to is to measure the thing said it's not just of people but we have of rowdy of polls that really look at these

types of question. I just want to make one last comment because I think what I'm trying to say is that it's not the measurement across the group. It's the confusion we're in each individual that I think it's missing in polling this way. You're not catching the contradictions within. One person now you system when we get to the top of the red and blue state because I guess in your grouping the response to my question where if there's this confusion within the individual's response and within their final tally sheet. Again I feel that there is really no predictive power I'm really looking at it's bits and pieces of all these opinions added to the fact that all of these individuals are very conflicted about their values might be affected by a sudden event such as the capture of Saddam Hussein. I don't agree with that I mean I would suspect earlier on that last point. Sure we'll have a bat that changed the landscape but

what's so remarkable is how quickly the landscape reverts back to that same basic red blue divide. When you look at polls as much in fact you have a plank to you discover is that there's a structure to public opinion and that the public is not. Well if you well you might think you should think about it now would on the Democratic side between Dean and Kerry and I but it's an autograph and their opinion so rather than can be easily trained and the fans of the show would be a Dean campaign. But when you look at the values question you really I'm really so struck by the fact that there's an enormous stability. The public opinion and that it's not a soft if you might to cast because of these conflicting values I need to jump in to help the call forgive me because we're already past our midpoint and I have some other callers I want to get to a particular someone here who is on a cell phone so

let's go there to line number one. Hello. Oh yes I have a question for you Rick. And that's a similar thing as the last individual. But I was curious if if you had any for lack of a better term demographics. I mean what did pop what influence had any effect. Is there any effect and the stop by I presume it's a percentage of Baptists and maybe the north that's maybe Presbyterian or Catholic and possibly Muslim or Jewish that showed any significance in it or is that pretty much across the board I'm not sure it's been a red state. Well yeah we're just a weird lone should that one should have hung up but it didn't. Let me try again.

Yeah I would tend to read the state to find a higher concentration of Protestants both red states and higher concentration of born again it's within those red states. Again I think what what's going on it's a kind of interesting cultural federalism. So if you're born. Again and you're Protestant you like living in Alabama or Mississippi or Texas would you like to associate with like minded people. We didn't see the percentage of Catholics with any blue states and a Muslims fan. Well let's just not graded out so that we could make that kind of a determination as such but I think you asked about the pope Lord be you. Influence of the pope. But I would still be dances steps and states there's more attention to the importance of institution effort located. Finding and understanding and an expression of religious belief and

faith and a blue state seatbelts expression. Well personally I don't I can't I can't. Anytime. Even the existence of God. I don't believe the expressions of return are quite different just real quick to come back to another point and then I'll get on to the next call I promise that person I will make him wait forever. Just recently I heard some one some one some political commentator make the observation that one of the things that's been true about American politics today is that there simply aren't very many people who are undecided in terms of whether they would be red or blue. And that sense that you know you can't people someone who would do who could truly say well gosh I don't know I guess I could vote Republican or I guess I could vote Democrat there. There are just almost anybody like that anymore.

Rebut that analysis. And to add to it Robert the Democratic nominee. It's going to wind up with 45 percent of the file simply for the fact that now it's likely to be nominated. Maybe some exceptions to that. You feds Sharpton and I simply deem that I teach math. You get 200 points for putting your name on the exam. Contractor likes to say I think it's absolutely right that our strategies may be somewhat different this time which is to turn out. I didn't because you doubted if you can identify Republicans or Democrats are likely to get their support and that's a time for a different safe. Senator thank you. Oh by concerned the 1980s it's crap. I know George W. Bush Democrats

must but they're simply not fair. And I know very few Republican defectors from George W. Bush to either Richard Democrat or reference the nominee made me. That's pretty extraordinary. Let's take another caller this is someone listening in Urbana Lie number two. Hello. I you know I was wondering if John could comment on something David Brooks was talking about its book Bobos in Paradise is talking about the green Puritans and of the people of the progressive side of politics who were kind of absolutist morality you kind of in different areas like you banning smoking banning SUV that kind of thing. Yeah. I think that it to your book it's a wonderful book and I was informed to buy it by a great way. I did. Yeah I think obviously when it comes to cream cured

and I like that phrase by the way I did it again kind of did. There is a kind of rigidity there. But when you really deal with it I think the new professionals were a prime player and you look at the types of people that have been gravitating to the Dean campaign. The Democrats they still like their morality writ small they do believe in the environment that's I proud to be an important issue to them a kit kat. Absolutism about banning smoking and doing other forms of behavior. But still the data tell me they have all kinds of stories that they could tell but they still want when it comes to my questions it has really stuck around with me. Writ small. Let's go to Belgium. Over by Danville. That would be Lie Number 4. You know I know. And the surveys you

do for other people to anybody. Or other presidents you know you you take a look at Lincoln and you have a perception of a very magnanimous right for everybody. If you look at other ones maybe to be intellectuals like well I can only really present himself in a very. Intellectual way it. But we have asked questions about to the public as to how they would rank and precedence in terms of greatness but I thank you for your suggestion is really a good one. I would answer more carefully at the red and blue states we know about the pipe as ranked Washington and Lincoln Franklin D votes Frank John Kennedy. Really. And that of a

90 in Dallas and one of the interesting things with the presidency of George Bush Sr. had really been in the pie but some stimulation which was the find of things to come. I think that's a very good point and at the next time that we do that sort of suggests that we take a look at that and see whether we find these kind of unifying figures between the red and blue states and the case of thank you. And by which I suspect of John Kennedy am which President I'm a low depressive my mom would expect certainly Bill Clinton and the presidency of George W. Bush to fallen out of in those categories to perhaps others as well. It's an interesting question. We have about 15 minutes left and I would like to introduce Again our guest for this hour we're speaking with John Kenneth White. He's professor of politics at the Catholic University of America

which is in Washington D.C. He also serves as a consultant to Zogby International which is a big public polling for public opinion polling and research firm. And we've been talking a little bit about a survey that was done in December looking at the attitudes of people in those states that in 2000 went for Bush and those states that in 2000 went for Gore and asking them a variety of questions about their attitudes on things. And in an analysis of the results as I mentioned the beginning his observation that is our guests John Wright's observation is that it is a nation the United States deeply divided by party by the by ideology by the presidency of George Bush but most important he says it's divided by values. And if you're interested in this question you might also look for a book that he's authored that's titled The values divide American politics and culture in transition. It's published by Chatham House publisher. I would just for a second here I'm interested in asking this question you know

now I think when people politicians or others use the word values. And they talk about the importance of values. You don't have to ask them what they mean what kind of values they're talking about. I think everybody seems to know what that means and I guess I'm interested in how it is that values lower case became foul use capital V so that now you can use that term and everybody knows what values that you're talking about and in fact people might you know even you know even though the people can disagree with those things how they feel how they feel about the particular issues that is you know everybody knows what values means. How did how did you how did that happen. I will write my novel. Thank you. They can get in terms of transfer he transformed our politics around a certain set of policies as we well know but

government is not the solution but rather the problem in Fallon and Reaganomics and all the raft that Reagan constantly topped the language of values and in so many ways transformed the presidency. You think back to Reagan State of the Union address if they want so much. I want to say to policy prescriptions he was the prime minister the minister. If you Well that is telling different people stories. You know pointing to the people in the gallery and telling their stories from which the listener to derive a kind of wrath. But I've said before Bill Clinton understood that quite well and so did some of the Democratic candidates. We've seen Mr. Lieberman constantly talking about values but also his expression of religious faith. It's part of history which we see Mr. Kerry talking about his Vietnam service. He can't he

too can embody the value of patriotism and heroism and service and all of a raft. Rhodes talks about being the son of a mill worker. And and what these candidates need to do and I think I was doing it to varying degrees of success. It's to try to make that only devalues action. Again by the way it's a stark contrast to the Redeem it meets at the outset and you know I did. I'm not going to talk about by my dahlias my values I doubt you think your values are yours. I beat up the facts of this is why I want to be president. It's a very clumsy values to match and they're going to try to tell me Carter talking about the importance of religion etc.. But I think that most successful candidates have been very consistent in terms of trying to make those connections and understand that stop that they

need to make those connections that were to be kept hearing. If you do that matter most to them. We have some of the callers let's talk with them the next is in Danville. Why number one. Hello. Yeah I want to do assessment of my own pure and clear the responses that you received this morning. It shows what how those different assessments could be me and out of time Senator timing that I bring up and listen. Your response to what I think the caller said had some good questions so we can add to the survey that one of the Thankfully time deaths and other surveys and not just about being international But our polling organizations again. But we see the same lifestyle differences that occur over and over and over again.

And and I think the divisions within a country. And I see no evidence really that 2004 is going to produce a result terribly different. So small differences will be crucial this year but not terribly different from where we were in 2000. It's a country it's rapidly changing it's changing demographically. It certainly has undergone a significant values shift on a variety of different issues and questions to be sure. And and some parts of the country are very comfortable with those. Thank you and others are not. Well one of the things is certainly we know about politics is very dangerous to make predictions about the future because things can change very quickly and no one knows what the future holds Having said that though I'm interested in following up on your last comment when you're talking about this year's presidential contest where you're saying that when you're simply saying that

like the 2000 that it's going to be very close or are you saying that if you were a betting man that your money would be on President Bush being re-elected. I think it's going to be crowded and I think careful observer is really do believe fundamentally that this is going to be a close election. It's true that we would have a landslide run for either party. I don't think that's going to happen. And one reason for that is opening up those divisions between being bred in various states. That's sad and you know there are several states that are like him but not many and I think that the about him is going to come down to a handful of states. And I don't think we're going to go to the south at guided Eastern or your time. I know last night I think it's

going to be a very very long night. Let's go to another caller this is Urbana why number two. Hello. So are do you know blue states do they have the most potential for a population growth. Right and you know I wish I could give you a direct answer here. Here are the two answers for the red states it is the fact that their electoral vote has grown by seven or eight votes since 2000 that is if you take the states that through except you Bush one and got two. Two hundred and seventy run about 12 I think be a decimal number of about 12 out of time as a result of redistricting and a less than 2500 and that taking a fact is seven votes greater when you ripped abs other elements of that so if you look at the growth of new Calla professionals you look at the growth of

Hispanic voters by 2050. I whites will be a minority in the entire United States and one of the things that fascinates me is that 30 years ago there was a book titled The real majority in which they got pieces once the real maturity once I'm gone I'm fluent and I'm black. Or to put it another way. Right. Middle aged middle income means I had to carry those groups in 2000 overwhelmingly and the popular vote. He was winning the same groups overwhelmingly whatever tests we do with the political democratic candidates or an unnamed Democratic candidate. As your question suggests that is real. I think it's now the real minority. Yeah that's going to be a continuing problem because that's that's I'm not that society is not likely to be able to digest.

I would I would kind of. Make it all that made me pick up a article I read a couple years ago in The Daily Telegraph and it mentioned a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta where it states that Tories and liberal tried to warn and not made. And I mentioned that in conjunction with a study done out of the University of Western Ontario where they found that conservative values much more genetically. You know they are you know I mean there are more genetic tie to conservative values than there are to liberal values. And it really seems kind of like a weak future I'll couple actually off on. Well I don't I've never read that I'd have to really think about that. I don't think that there's a diplomatic component to that sometimes.

I think it really revolves around lifestyle like minded associations. And I would think a memory if you will. You know why don't you need three it's in American history. It's really the 1950s when we talked about the organization name the sense of sameness and all the raft and have now with these two very different countries almost here. I know experiences like 9/11 that did sound I interpreted very different way. Again two very separate kinds of care whether it's run its radio station you listen to it the television programs you want your right you get your news from. We try to get at least one more caller champagne 1 3 0 3. Yes I'm wondering about populism as something that might might unify us and one of the issues that I've been surprised not to see more

is talk about inequality in in wealth and income because it seems so you know even if people are looking at themselves and saying Well I'm I'm doing all right. Most people can say I'm not doing very well you know in in in prospect and will have to I'll have to. So you got your color but we're getting really short on time we have to get a quick response here from the guest that certainly offended Democratic argument particularly in the states of the old Confederacy including the south. Well I don't think that that argument finds because again you need to make that values connection. What this survey showed. Look in row three Democrats in red states around the question of trade red they're very skeptical about free trade and back to jobs lost and Medicare. Everything from where again red state voters are very skeptical and not terribly supportive of what the

president has done in bacteria. We're going to have to leave it at them. Have some other folks here we can't take my apologies but I'm sure we'll get back to some of these issues again for the moment we want to say thanks to our guest John Kenneth White is a professor of politics at the Catholic University of America in Washington D.C.. His book is The values divide American politics and culture in transition. If you'd like to read it published by Chatham House Publishers and Professor White thank you very much for talking with us. Thank you for having me.