Focus 580; Whats a Landscape For? Smart Growth and Livability in the 21st Century

Good morning this is focused 580 a morning telephone talk show My name is Jack bright and sitting in for David Inge today and the rest of the week. Glad you could listen during this hour of the program we will be talking with Gerald Edelman he is an open space activist and historic preservationist and founder of the Illinois and Michigan Canal National Heritage Corridor. He's also executive director of the open lands project of Illinois. These are two nonprofit nonprofit organizations working with a way to preserve open space and do a variety of Historic Preservation sorts of things. In 1988 Jerry Edelman was appointed by the secretary of the Interior to serve as a commissioner on the national heritage quarter commission will talk a bit about that. He's also a member of the Illinois nature preserves commission an emeritus member of the National Board of Advisors of the National Trust for Historic Preservation and has served on the boards of numerous civic organizations. He's in town here to give a lecture in the Miller comm series and that will be at 7:30 tonight at the faculty center on the third floor and he'll be talking about the

topic where the title is what is the landscape for Smart Growth and livability in 21st century and we'll talk about that a variety of other issues he's also played a key role in establishing the middle when national tall grass prairie something that we might want to touch on during the hour. We'll also be happy to take your questions if you'd like to join the conversation. You can call us around Champaign-Urbana at 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 That's 3 3 3. Well the match letters with the numbers. We also have a toll free line. Anywhere you hear us 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Again around Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3. Well elsewhere. Eight hundred two two two. Well good morning. Good morning Jack. Thanks for being here. It's great to be here. Maybe I could ask you to talk just to start about the open lands project. Sure. Open Lance project is a regional land conservation group. We were formed 38 years ago and one of the first in the country really

focused on a metropolitan area at that time in particular people felt there was very little worth saving. You know in a city or suburbs or kind of ex-urban French conservation was seen as out there are wilderness rural areas. But we've been working in Chicago and throughout the broader metropolitan region as advocates for public open space. Many sites. We've provided a lot of leadership for often working in partnership such as the first example of a conversion of an abandoned railroad to a right of way the prairie path or follow bog goose like prairie you know is a long list of sites that we were directly involved in saving the largest being in the day when national tall grass Prarie but also get involved very much in public policy public education about issues related to land conservation and land use and planning. And increasingly have I been

at the table with others in these discussions around smart growth if you want to you know sort of how we're growing as a region and what the implications are for the environment as well as for our economy and quality of life. We'll certainly get into that but just to follow up on the the projects that you've been working on for example the targets period for former Juliet arsenal. I mean these are size the these particular sites are formally heavily developed and you're looking you're looking at ways to reuse those sites essentially. Correct. Yes. We often deal with abandoned. Sites that had uses sometimes Brownfield kind of sites. That's especially true in a lot of our inner city community greening efforts with them a day one was a huge property put together right at the outbreak of World War 2 and basically was composed of farms. Dozens and dozens of farms that the federal government acquired. They wanted a

site to manufacture TNT that was far enough removed from the coast so it was protected close enough to a large metropolitan area that they had labor force but not so close if there were explosions that you could have major disasters and so the twenty four thousand acres that remained initially was larger. But under the Nixon administration some of that land was Dia session. But when they finally closed it down in the mid 1990s 24000 acres remained only about 3000 of them had industrial uses however so basically was pasture land and function even though it wasn't pristine virgin prairie. In fact there are only a few prairie remnants. But because they were grasslands very important habitat for grassland birds. And so Tony has for instance the environmental writers said that this is the first 22nd century National Park is going to take a hundred years of restore the ecosystems but already plays a very important role as habitat and it's just a huge expanse of open space. You know Illinois the prairie

state yet we have less than one tenth of one percent of that original prairie that survives and so we thought here was a great opportunity close to where 8 million people live to bring prairie back and to really provide a unique opportunity for residents of the region and state and the nation for that matter. I do want to also talk a little bit about the canal Corder Association. Sure. Canal quarter association grew out of open land project in 1900 to open lands it provided earlier leadership focused more narrowly the canal proper and this is a little tow canal that was built in the 1830s and 40s to connect Lake Michigan at Chicago with the Illinois River at lasalle Peru. Cutting through a low Continental Divide bridging these two major drainage is in the Chicago River originally emptied into Lake Michigan was part of the Great Lakes drainage to the Atlantic Ocean whereas the Illinois

River. You know as part of the Mississippi down to the Gulf of Mexico so this canal bridge those and really gave birth to Chicago and to the communities along it. It was replaced in the nineteen 20s and 30s with subsequent waterways and other transportation systems and sections of the canal remained in state ownership and in one thousand 70s 60 miles of it was designated a state park. But they cut off the northern section close to Chicago in part because it was fragmented. And we started looking at the broader landscape not just at the little canal and it's right of way. But at the river valley and the towns and kind of mosaic of land uses and recognize that there's an extraordinary landscape here that really told the story of the growth and development of the upper Midwest and still contained you know fabulous natural and

cultural resources and that somehow that could all be woven together. It could create the equivalent if you want of a national park in Chicago's backyard and so canal corridor Association was formed to really provide leadership for that. And we were successful in 1904 in getting the region designated the first of its kind in the country a National Heritage Corridor and a partnership park if you want where the federal government actually doesn't own and manage any of the resources are very few they have them a day when which is in fact is the centerpiece now. But where it's state and local government with private interests very much an effort to improve the region as it is to preserve it. You know a combination of both and trying to develop a shared sense of the future a vision if you want for that region. So we get involved in downtown revitalization and we have a we have the first Main Street program for instance in Illinois which now is a statewide program. We had partnered with the National Trust on that in a pilot initiative trying to revitalize these historic downtowns and

waterfronts been working to develop a trail system we now have 80 miles of hiking and biking trails provided kind of a regional context for a lot of the conservation and preservation work saving important prairie remnants and other natural resources. And using the cultural natural resources really as the framework you know for revitalization efforts especially focused on heritage or cultural tourism. Thinking of the eight million people who live in and near Chicago who want to learn about their own history and experience the outdoors and then visit some of these wonderful sites the state parks and forest preserves and historic sites that are located along this hundred mile route. I think a lot of people are very interested in this type of thing happening in their communities. You know we look at historic buildings many of which are in disrepair and so forth. And you know a lot of times sort of feel helpless that you know there's all these assets the community has.

How do you how do you go about addressing that and actually you know making some kind of for progress in developing the resources that you know the community has. I mean you mentioned sort of a partnership approach. I think the use of asset is a good term that often especially in an area like the IEM canal region back in the early 80s when this was first being conceived and developed as a concept there are pretty bleak times. This was the Rust Belt tremendous amount of disinvestment. High levels of unemployment for instance Joliet which is the largest city outside of Chicago along the hundred mile corridor had 25 percent unemployment and so people are focusing on the negative things you know. And we stepped inside. Yeah that's true but you know you also have extraordinary assets and the first thing that we did was bring together scholars representing different disciplines to help us really inventory. You know what. What was really there we found that we had the largest collection of natural areas for instance in the state of

Illinois. These remnants of the original Illinois landscape in part because it wasn't just rail and transportation corridor large areas were kind of cut off and inaccessible and developed. And so these wonderful prairie and wetland remnants and forested areas survived in terms of the historic and cultural resources it was just a gold mine you know from early in Native American culture through the French period the fur trade you know right up to the present with permanent European settlement an establishment of towns and. Birthplace of the industrial revolution in our part of the country so there are all these wonderful buildings and sites and recreational opportunities and so we started reaching out to the public and telling that story trying to reconnect people to the land. And I think that created a climate then were where people were open to new ideas. How do you actually then save a building or restore a downtown or protect a prairie. There is no kind of formula. I guess it starts

though with local support and awareness. Without that there's not the political will. And then we really tried to draw upon any resource we could find. You know if there was a grant program or state or national organization that offer technical help. Turning to you know Chambers of Commerce and the business community and grassroots groups and so each success story kind of has its own set of players and own unique kind of elements. But I think again it it it starts though with. The people who live there not just in the community but in the broader region recognizing what they have articulating its values somehow and making sure that that that voice is heard as change takes place. Certainly there's an economic dimension to it a bottom line value and I think we're finding that reusing historic buildings and historic downtown areas where investments have

been made where there is good public transit often in various kinds of infrastructure investments that were made over the years that there's a logic to reusing you know rather than discarding. But it's not just a bottom line argument obviously but I think that's one of the things that was in our favor that there was a growing awareness nationally about the economics of reuse if you want. And also about the importance of quality of life when you're talking about economic development activity it's not just you know where the good roads and utilities and so forth but can you attract the kind of employees and personnel. What do you have to offer I mean obviously things like good schools but also is it a community that has a local pride a sense of place some unique cultural and recreational opportunities you're competing with regions around the country and and so I think a lot of these things got woven into a strategy that has many dimensions to it and obviously continues

under the president you know it's sort of a process that never ends. We have a call to talk with let's include them in our conversational mention again our guest during this hour focus 580 is Jerry Edelman. He's executive director of the open lands project and president of the canal quarter Association in Illinois and he'll be speaking tonight in the Millikan lecture series. It's 7:30 p.m. at levels faculty center on the third floor and calls are welcome if you'd like to join our conversation 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 around Champaign-Urbana anywhere else. 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We'll go first to a listener in Belgium online over for good morning on focus 580. It won't mean I'm not altogether sure if my comments are probably appropriate for here seeing that you really seem to be talking more about what's going on today instead of just what's count canal systems but what the topic I was going to touch on for you was. There's the failed canal that came through western Indiana called the Wabash an Erie Canal the failed just as the railroads came through. I'm not sure that it was totally

built. It was supposed to go down to thin sins but time may very well stop short of that because the Western expansion of the river roads over did it. But it's still of a vailable to look at. And people who know about it along the west western edge of Indiana along the Wabash River. There are many areas where it's still there there's canal systems there's water in the empowerments. They used to use it for various things like that. When it got long a lot bashed from all three close to Lafayette there were spots of it and went around all the various rapids that are in the Wabash River cut off the loops and stuff. Did you folks ever deal with that part of the canal system. No our focus really has been exclusively on Michigan canal. Obviously we're aware of the great canal building era of the 19th century and some of the other canals and there are you know efforts really across the country

to preserve and enhance the remaining canals as amenities and as important cultural artifacts and important linear elements for recreational opportunities but it's interesting you point out the relationship between the canals and the railroad. In fact our canal here in El annoy. It was proposed actually initially in the 17th century when Marquette initially came through after discovering the Mississippi their Indian guide suggested a short cut it took them through this region and they recognize that you know by cutting a canal through this Continental Divide and bridging these two major water systems drainage is that you could have continuous water travel all the way from the Atlantic to the Gulf of Mexico and have been talked about President. Madison for instance in his inaugural address pointed out this canal is one of the most important internal improvements of the new nation could enter into and but debates

ensued finally and in the state legislature and there were advocates for the new railroad versus the canal and it was a fact Abraham Lincoln who became a state legislator the principle advocate for a canal he said was much more democratic. He said that the moguls of industry you know controlled the railroads and anyone could put their their boat in the canal and use it. So it's interesting you know and many people said well gee the Canal opened in 1848 in the canal was then paralleled by railroads a few years later which is true to put it out of business well that's not true. In fact the heaviest tonnage shipped on the I-AM canal was in the 1880s. And so both the railroad and the canal kind of brought in more development and industrial activity along this corridor. But many of the canals you know were outmoded quickly and most of them did not pay for themselves. The two notable exceptions being the Erie and the well only portion of your

e your e paid for itself this portion down here. Not really. Well no no I meant the not not the Wabash unary but just the Erie Canal in New York State. And it's interesting that you would bring up the rankings. Because in this area where Champaign Urbana this area where we're at over here in Danville area on over to Springfield Lincoln traveled this area and most of his court cases if you don't with a large percentage of the dough dealt with railroad right away. Right and of course then he was the attorney for the ole central ironically. Well I think he really did feel that you know it was a much more equitable way that to make a public investment. And he was really concerned that you know the railroads would be controlled by a handful of people. Ironically that's how he made his own you know living and whatever and became the spokesperson for the railroads. So interesting history though and the canal building era you know the United States is one that I think is

generated a lot of the interest and lore. And we're seeing a revival of interest in canals you know throughout the eastern part of the United States. The unfortunate part about the canals over here along the western edge of Indiana is that. None of them are at all viable. Very little water just standing water in them now. Well that's the situation with her I am too of course is paralleled by the sanitary and Ship Canal up in the Chicago region and then in the 1980s and finished in 1033 ACL NY Waterway which parallels it but the actual I am only sections are watered so in many cases it's treated as a green way if you want a linear park for hiking and biking. But there are no canal boats for instance. We're hoping to establish kind of a canal boat museum and some working canal boats at the terminus in LaSalle. That's a project that is in its infancy right now but that's generating a lot a lot of enthusiasm and we hope political support.

Thank you very much. Sure. Thanks so much for the call. There are many things you can do with these these canals and besides you know put water in them. That's right as you mention. And you know they. It's interesting that the impetus for the preservation of the canal really came from the people who live in the communities of the border and they realize that it gave birth to their towns. The northern section of the canal was excluded from the state park designation in 1994 because it was fragmented because many sections were dry. The state had leased the adjacent lands to industry and so couldn't function as a traditional linear park. But people in communities like Joliet and Lockport and Lamont and Willow Springs summit they kept coming back to open lands project this fairly new. You know advocacy organization say you know help us with our little piece of the canal. They said by the way there's also a wonderful wet prairie and there's this forested area and there's significant habitat down the river valley and so that's an open land started looking more broadly at the

regional landscape as a whole maybe a traditional linear park along the canal wasn't feasible because of the fragmentation but by looking at this broader landscape this ancient transportation corridor or one could piece together a mosaic of open spaces and cultural sites. That had in some ways even greater significance than just the canal and isolation but I think that you know the kind of now there's a certain drama and lore and mystery to it and people are just fascinated you know by life 19th century life on a canal so even when you don't have the the water to Canal you just have the right of way. I mean it can still be an artifact that triggers you know that kind of investigation and public education and certainly functions as a wonderful linear park and public open space. It sounds like what you're talking about is a in essence a community wide effort to look at the landscape in the in the given area and perhaps that could be

you know a county wide area and attempt to do some kind of planning for the needs of the community whether it be you know commerce recreation habitat et cetera. Exactly. And in fact there's a piece of legislation that opened lands project has been instrumental in crafting and supporting. That's before the Illinois legislature right now which is called the local legacy program. Representative Dave Winters from Rockford has introduced the bill. And this would provide financial support and technical assistance for counties who partner with their municipalities to first of all inventory their special places their cultural and natural resources as well as identifying prime farmland that they want to protect as agricultural zones. With that inventory in hand then develop a comprehensive resource protection plan. Again with financial and technical

help from the state with the plan then they would qualify for new sources of financial support for preservation and acquisition of conservation easements fee simple acquisition and so forth. It's a modest effort but it's moving we think in the right direction right now. The way Eleanor is structured decisions are made pretty much in a piecemeal fashion. Municipalities there are zoning and planning supersedes the county and so often they're working at cross purposes and we feel that it starts again with this kind of broader consensus building to make sure that there's predictability here I mean it works for the developer as well as for the conservationists because up front you know people have gone through the efforts to Adana fire that which is special and that ought to be protected and everyone knows that you know it's not sort of an 11th hour battle with the bulldozer sort of in front of the building or on the

Prairie. And people trying to stop it. And I think that this whole heritage area movement we were the first National Heritage Corridor this kind of partnership park designated by Congress. There are now 23 of them called Heritage areas because not all of them are linear many do follow canals and other transportation corridors but some like America's industrial heritage in Pennsylvania in fact is eight counties. And it's where the iron and steel industry was concentrated in its goal is to really tell that story of labor history and of industrialization. So it follows along the lines that you suggested you know a whole county in this case eight counties sort of get coming together all different levels of government and private sector to you know craft a kind of a park proposal if you want it done a find the key sites and linking them through driving tours and hiking and biking routes and then telling that story you know through creative ways curriculum in the schools

brochures site interpretation and so forth and having a plan for development with these assets in place. Exactly. And using the assets as assets has ways to help shape new development you know. You know often you know here in Champagne Urbana you know go to the strip you know or anywhere else in Illinois or United States. And if you were dropped from outer space I mean the only thing that would be different from one strip development to another. In most cases is the vegetation here in Florida you might have palm trees here you'll have deciduous trees if you have any and so forth. These are anonymous landscapes I mean they tell us nothing about the unique history of the place or the character or personality of the community. And I think Americans are really troubled by that. And so by focusing again on the cultural landscape and the natural landscape and identifying those features that are special and unique to your area

they they not only are preserved if you have a good plan but they hopefully can help trigger development that responds to it that becomes a little more place based that has this sense of place and rootedness and isn't just you know some sort of anonymous plan that a chain has developed and is applied anywhere equally throughout the country. Well Pastor mid-point We're talking this morning during this hour focused 580 with Jerry Edelman executive director of the open lands project he's also president of the canal Corder Association in Illinois and he'll be speaking at 7:30 tonight on the third floor of Levy's faculty center on Smart Growth and livability in the 21st century. We'll welcome your phone calls for the rest of the hour if you'd like to join our conversation. You can do so by calling us at 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 around Champaign-Urbana or anywhere else 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. What you were just describing seems like a very rosy and positive scenario as opposed to the case in a lot of instances where growth just seems to

happen. You know we were talking earlier before the show started about how around Chicago the collar counties are just exploding in population and development and you mentioned something about how even a small gain of population might result in a huge increase in actual physical development. With the you know effect on the landscape along with that exactly for instance from 1970 to 1990 in the six county Chicago metropolitan area there was only a 4 percent increase in population during that same 20 year period there was a forty six percent increase in developed land. To give another all time frame from 1950 to 1998 there was 46 percent increase in population one hundred sixty five percent increase in developed land. So what we're seeing is lower density sprawl patterns of development very harmful to the

environment obviously were using prime farmland and developing wonderful natural resources leapfrogging going further and further out away from public investment from public service from schools and the kind of infrastructure that and support systems that community needs while we're abandoning inner city neighborhoods and older suburbs now. The recent census reports were somewhat hopeful relative to Chicago for the first time since 1950 there was actually a slight increase in population. And that's very positive and quite wonderful but in the big picture with the huge growth in the collar counties older suburbs are still losing population. Many of them were seeing these patterns of disinvestment and the thing is it's not just an environmental impact. I would argue it's an economic impact I mean as a society I don't think we can afford to support all of the kinds of infrastructure and

institutional needs that we have as we're continuing to maintain the communities that we've already developed historically. So there's a real economic impact. I mean it may be cheaper when you first move out to the new development the cornfield your taxes are low. But as it grows around you and you have to build the schools and new roads and the fire department and the police and whatever your taxes are going to go up and that's the pattern that we see then people move further out for cheaper housing but it's just a vicious cycle. Yeah traffic congestion poor air quality. I mean these are all. Products if you want of these low density sprawl patterns of development but they're also I think some psychological and social implications too. First of all they are car dependent so you get the huge residential development you know the huge shopping center the office park they aren't connected there are no sidewalks you can't walk from school to home to library whatever. Both parents working they have to drive the kids everywhere I mean they spend so much time in the car. Old people in particular are

very isolated you know especially when they can't drive any longer. And young people the two ends of the demographic spectrum. I mean it creates a great deal of social isolation we are building communities we're doing projects. And so you know I would say that you know is it by chance or by choice. I mean this is not just the marketplace it isn't just public will these are there are hidden subsidies here huge amount of federal and state money that go into the new roads and the sewer extensions and the other kinds of improvements that are necessary that make that land so cheap and the housing so relatively inexpensive on the fringe. And our federal housing policy is really dating back to the 1930s have subsidized and provided low interest mortgages and so forth for new housing not for rental and not for older rehab. The huge highway building after World War 2 you know across this country that led to our tollways and highways

that opened up these vast areas. You know those are subsidies. The developer doesn't pay for it. You know but we as taxpayers pay and so I think we have to kind of step back and really look at what are the forces that are shaping the kind of growth that we're seeing the kind of development and those who are involved in sensible growth or Smart Growth movement aren't saying no growth is just saying we need to rethink it and we need to be more strategic and we need to understand the implications on our ecology our economy and our society of the patterns that we presently have an open land project we did a study called under pressure. And we did focus groups in 13 counties in southeastern Wisconsin northeastern Illinois and northwestern Indiana with local officials planners developers conservationists home builders so forth real people involved in real estate and based on that we came up with some forecasts and we said that in the next 10 year period it's likely if we don't change the way we do

business. That there will be a 55 percent increase in developed land and that over the next 30 years we will double in size. So it took us what over a hundred fifty years to develop the footprint that we have. That's going to double. And again very low density double in 30 30 55 percent increase in 10. That's not sustainable. Anyway it cut it. And so we're hoping you know as more and more people start looking at what's going on around them and understand the forces that are shaping it that we will develop some new policies and programs states like New Jersey Tennessee Maryland recently Wisconsin and many others have passed smart growth legislation incentive based you know kind of initiatives but that are beginning to make a difference and. I think hopeful in Illinois that we're headed in that direction as well although we're pretty far behind at the moment. There seems to be another incentive going in the other direction to encourage growth at least in many of these strip malls

and you know commercial developments that that you mention where a city needs the tax revenue they need the sales tax base because they've got the schools to pay for and you know the fire the infrastructure and and the city to run. And there is a real competition certainly in Illinois among municipalities to bring in these developments you know assume a shopping center and so forth. And what tends to happen as we've seen here in Champaign-Urbana and I'm sure elsewhere you'll have a a large chain retail operation that builds something in what was the commercial hot area. And then as other large capital stores come in in new developments then suddenly the traffic patterns start to change out in that direction. And so the old commercial hotspots are no longer the hot spots. And so these other older stores realize that they have to build a bigger and newer facility in the new strip and these large

formally they were they were large now they're larger in the new new location that these older large buildings sit there unused out. You know as you point out it's no longer the case of the traditional 19th century downtown that's been abandoned for the new strip development it's now the earlier generation of strip development has been a big hundred for the newer one and now in some cases the third generation as you point out. And what you have is annexation wars between communities for the cash rich commercial development. We find that other than very high end residential residential doesn't pay for itself. So you're finding you know a development happening without any grand scheme. You know it's just sort of a free for all. We're subsidizing roads and building new roads but we aren't addressing land use. And they've got to go together obviously. So I think there are alternatives and I think we're paying the price. In many different ways and there are clearly clearly winners and losers you know and the winner

of today will be the loser of tomorrow. And so at some point you kind of have to say well wait a minute this doesn't make sense. And government is making decisions by not having policies and by subsidizing certain things or not subsidizing them that is fueling this and so it's not simply the marketplace the marketplace will respond to whatever the the the rules are if you want and so other states like Maryland have enacted you know very positive incentive based initiative saying for instance if you want to develop in a zone outside of our growth zone and they do each community defines a growth zone not a rigid growth boundary but a zone that's a logical extension of existing infrastructure sewer water roads and so forth. If you want to leapfrog and go you know 10 miles out into the farmland. We aren't telling you you can't do it but then don't come to us and ask for us to build a road or to build a fire station or the new school or whatever. You know you have to pay the full cost of development and

so this is beginning to reverse a lot of those patterns and Maryland as an example. I guess the granddaddy of growth management in the United States is Oregon and everyone points to that and says it's communism you know and they're they have very rigid growth boundaries around every community. Again not an anti-growth proposal in fact they've had the support of the home builders and the realtors but they agree on here's a very firm line and you cannot develop outside of that. So there are different models here a full spectrum and I think Elon oil is going to be far closer if we ever move in that direction toward the Maryland model as an example. But I do think that we have to begin to understand the hidden subsidies and the kinds of frameworks in which this is all playing out. And recognize again that the winner of today is the loser of tomorrow and so at some point we just have to say we can't support this any longer. We have another call to talk with let's include them in our conversation this is listener in Danville on the line number four. Good morning you're on focus 580.

Yes. You may have rung up a little bit here just now on your time at urban growth and stuff like you have in our crowd. How much opposition to what you're doing. You know we have what we got but we don't want what you're selling. Do you run into opposition to what you're trying to do is a question. Sure. I think fear of the unknown in part and misrepresentation. You know what we're trying to do is engage more and more people in the dialogue get them to the table. And so it's not just a decision of you know the Planning Commission and the City Council alone but it's the broader community and there's some interesting tools that have been developed to provide a more kind of democratic sort of process. And and that's what it's all about I think at this stage is getting information out there that we understand what's happening and we aren't necessarily suggesting concrete solutions I mean we're trying to get people to the table to help craft those solutions. And there's not a formula you know that one

fits all and you can't just take what New Jersey has done as an example or are Maryland and say well we'll just adapt it you know literally here in Illinois we have to come up with our own. Unique kind of approaches and solutions. But clearly we need to understand better what's going on and I think that's where we're at right now it's more that information sharing stage beginning to develop some proposals that move us in a certain direction. There is resistance definitely but I think a lot of it is based on misunderstanding and lack of good information. Well because of the caller's question we have just about a little less than 10 minutes remaining with Jerry Edelman executive director of the open lands project. If you'd like to join our conversation in the remaining time you can call us around Champaign-Urbana at 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Or toll free anywhere you hear us 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Another issue I want to you know just raise the disappearance of farmland we're seeing you know here in Champagne County. I think over the next few years.

A battle shaping up over a particular quarter which links one of the major and growing I guess you could call suburbs Muhammad with the champagne around along Route 150. And there is a tremendous incentive if you own land along that corridor that was formally you know prime farmland song for two three maybe more thousand dollars an acre. Suddenly it's worth you know thirty or fifty or seventy thousand dollars an acre. And there is a piece of legislation actually that has been approved by the House that will be going to the Senate that authorizes the purchase of agricultural conservation easements by local government. Right now it's a little ambiguous I mean some would argue that they have the authority others say they don't. Clearly the farmer has to be compensated. I mean I think it's unfair to simply you know on a map color. Yeah. An area an agricultural zone and say Well

tough you know that your neighbor could be anywhere but now you can't. And so that local legacy program I mentioned you know would allow a county in partnership with the municipalities to determine where the prime farmland is and to define agricultural zones agricultural districts. There are a lot of factors that go into that it's not just the soils it's also the scale and you know variety of things fragmentation is very difficult for farmers and you start getting housing developments you know intermixed with fire mean and then there are complaints about the smells and the traffic from the tractors and you know all these kinds of things so you define your zone and then with that you know we feel that there need to be programs then that allow for compensation to the farmers willing sellers who want to remain farming but they say you know we also have a resource here and this is our investment you know it's our our future. And Maryland has a very good program where they're acquiring those development rights and put in conservation easements on their farm land in some cases they're paying almost 90 percent of the

fair market value. People say well why would you do that why won't you buy the farmland outright. Well the advantage to the purchase of development rights or of conservation easements is that one it remains in the private sector. It remains on the tax rolls. Public agency isn't managing it. It remains firmly and very importantly and here we are the bread basket. You know if North America one of the great bread baskets of the world I mean their economic And I think their ethical issues moral issues related to preservation of our farmland but not at the expense of the individual farmer So again I think there are tools that are out there that we presently don't have an Illinois. And that's what we're advocating. You know is that we develop that tool box you know as completely as possible and look creatively at ways in which you can achieve multiple goals and not at the expense of the individual farmer which really would be unfair. Interesting. There is a lot of these old industrial sites as well around the state. And I'm thinking of

the former Tilton plant in Danville which I believe I think has been partly occupied by new corporations so for that if you worked with some of these sites what what can be done with old industrial sites that are no longer. I mean we've we've moved into a post-industrial shape in many ways. We have many of them along Canal Heritage Corridor because this was you know a very important transportation corridor as I mentioned we're really the industrial revolution then for the upper Midwest took place. There are complicated issues. Easy answers you know are buildings that don't have environmental problems that are maybe right in the heart of the community or at the edge that can be adapted for commercial residential a variety of uses and we have many examples in the corridor of former industrial and warehousing kind of buildings that have been creatively restored and

adapted you know for new uses when you're dealing with the industrial sites and where there are serious environmental problems that gets much more complicated obviously and I think one of the things that we have to do as a society is revisit the standards that we follow. And as a conservationist environmentalist I'm certainly not advocating lowering standards at the cost of environmental or public safety. But right now we basically have one standard and everything is cleaned up as if it were. You know a lot for a kindergarten. And that doesn't make sense and so I think we need some more flexibility and we need to better understand the science of environmental remediation and a lot of that is beginning to happen because those are huge obstacles and huge costs. Again it needs to be done with good science and with a good understanding of the public safety and environmental dimensions but I think that is a piece of the equation because often there are huge impediments to reuse of these properties just the huge liability that goes with them.

But they're often strategically located along transportation systems railroads rivers canals highways. They symbolize the heart and soul of the community. You know generations of people work there are sort of a positive association so I think creative reuse of these properties is the answer and we have some models but we also have some huge issues that we haven't dealt with adequately yet. We just have a couple minutes left and as much more we could talk about but I guess I'm curious what you think about this. Do you think that there are a lot of assets out there that we don't even recognize. Absolutely. We do a lot of work. In inner city neighborhoods in Chicago and work with community interests block clubs church groups school councils a whole range of them bring them together at their invitation and we almost service staff but helping them inventory you know their their assets relative to vacant land which is liability you

know the places where houses were burned or torn down or urban renewal sites that were never developed and so forth. But to address their open space needs. And that's just kind of for me a metaphor for you know what a community often has and that they're blinded to and they haven't really looked at I mean here these are sites where there's fly dumping and junk cars and rats and gang activity and symbols of despair and failure. And yet as they start thinking about them differently where they're located and so forth they become assets if you can turn them around and create playgrounds and city and parks and community gardens and so forth and I think that every community has things like that. But we're often blinded to them we take them for granted. And that's where the resources of a university is so key I mean the people like John J Cole here and the geography faculty who has been looking at different kinds of dimensions to the cultural landscape helping people identify you know those things not just the the classic landmarks but even the subtler things that. I think

the that the educational community academia has a great role to play with community and beginning to sort of define value and to give people the tools to look afresh at where they live and figure out what it is that's really special in their community that's meaningful and that ought to be protected enhanced and re-used for future generations. So it's a complicated process but it's exciting once you start on it. And you often discover things that you never imagined. Very good. Well I have to leave it there and come to suggest for folks if you'd like to hear more from our guest Jerry Edelman. He will be speaking tonight at 7:30 on the third floor of the Levasseur faculty center in Urbana up as part of the miller comm lecture series. You know the title of the talk what is a landscape Smart Growth and livability in the 21st century and that's for you know the public and the jury alone thanks very much for being here. It was great to be here thank you.