Focus 580; The Mummy Congress: Science, Obsession, and the Everlasting Dead

In this hour of focus 580 everything you ever wanted to know about mummies will be talking this morning with Heather Pringle she is a science journalist who has for over 20 years now been working especially in the fields of archaeology and anthropology. She has traveled all over the world and has written for many different publications including National Geographic Traveler discover science and Geo. Just to name a few. And this morning we'll be talking about a recent book that she has authored that is titled The Mummy Congress. The subtitle is science obsession and the everlasting dead which in part explores why it is that we find mummies fascinating. Generally why we as individuals find the fascinating why people who do research on them also find them fascinating. Then the various things that mummies can tell us about not only who these people were and how they lived but can the say things about how we think about beauty. What politics really mean then and now they have some things to tell us about medicine and disease. It's

quite an interesting subject and she explores that in the book which is published by. You say who is the publisher on this book. Thea I think Hyperion is an imprint of Hyperion. So you can go out and look for the book it is titled The money Congress and then of course if you have questions or comments you can give us a call. Three three three W I L L here in Champaign Urbana toll free 800 1:58 wy alowe. Ms Pringle Hello. I David. Thanks for talking with us. Oh my pleasure. And so sorry I sort of stumbled over your publisher here I guess I I guess I'm not familiar with his imprint. It's a new imprint so don't don't feel badly. All right well anyway the book is out there and people want to read it they certainly should should look for it. The title comes from a meeting that she would tend in fact had I guess has been going on for a while. It's a gathering of various kinds of researchers and scholars and people who are interested in mummies. And apparently it's not a particularly high profile event and

in fact you write in the book that even though you've been writing about archaeology for a long time until relatively recently you had never heard of the mummy Congress. Well that's absolutely true and I found out about it quite quite almost by accident. I was at the time for casting around for story ideas for Discover magazine they had asked me to try to find a new mummy research that would make a suitable article so I was calling around and. And as I say quite by chance one of the researchers just mentioned that there was going to be this gathering of money experts from around the world. And as soon as I heard this sort of all my journalist bells started going off and I thought gee this this sounded incredibly interesting you know to think that money experts would be coming from all over the world to present their findings. Just it just seemed too hard to resist. And of course when when one says the word mummy immediately everyone thinks Egypt.

Exactly exactly. When I went there when I went to the Congress it was held in a little place a little city in Chile called the Ricoh in northern Chile. And I and I started attending the sessions and listening to the various papers that the researchers were presenting I was really amazed to find out that there had been mummies on every continent on earth. There had been for example researchers were reporting finds of mummies from let's say Lebannon these were these were mummies of people who'd fought during the Crusades in Lebanon. They were telling stories about the mummies of Buddhist monks in Japan and these were these were individuals who had actually practiced a form of self modification during their lives. So in other words they had they had tried to modify themselves by eating a very particular diet they had abstain from all grains and rice for example and they had nibbled on that type of Not on this a tree and not. And they had sipped at bowls of laugher which is the stuff that most of us put on furniture.

So you know there you know as I say I heard stories of these do with money from Japan and of course there were if there had been there were many reports of mummies from South America that the little city of the Rica's that were perched on the edge of the Atacama Desert which is one of the driest places on earth if not the drive place on earth. And it provides a natural environment for the preservation of human flesh it's just so very dry there that it dries cadavers and naturally moment flies the dead cell. You know I think it's important to point out that to a money expert. Mummies are not just sort of dead folks wrapped in linen which is what I think most of us would think of we think of Egyptian mummies to be expert a mummy is any body that riseth the natural process of decay. So in other words this could be for example one of the children that have been found on the tops of South American mountains these are the Inca children.

It could be a frozen child from a mountaintop or it could be a body found in the bogs of northern Europe still. You know there's just a vast range of you know mummies that scientists were talking about. You know it's interesting that that. Because this goes to the very question of well what is it exactly that we're talking about. Because there are there are examples of mummies that were the deliberate effort or deliberate attempts at people to preserve the bodies and prevent them from decaying but then depending upon the natural conditions there are also places that it's just happened because of the because of the virtues of the environment in the place so it does it gets to this question well as I said when you say Mummy people think about Egypt and think about these people wrapped in strips of linen and that it's it's really much much more than that.

Yes absolutely and I think people may be surprised to learn that. In fact be the human Art Monk for cation is really really quite widespread in other words it certainly wasn't confined to Egypt. There were very proficient modifiers in let's say and in northern Chile. In fact we often think that Egypt was the birthplace of mummification but in reality the very earliest. What I what I would call artificial mummies over mummies made by human beings. The very earliest artificial mummies in fact come from northern Chile and they date back about 7000 years which is around twenty five hundred years before the Egyptians began to embalm their dad. So you know it certainly as I say chill you know they were there were morticians in northern Chile 7000 years ago there were certainly cultures in North America which practiced modification on the Aleutian Islands which are just off the coast of Alaska. There were again some very very

proficient monk fires living living on those islands in prehistoric times. And they did they also modified their dad. And then of course across Europe in medieval times the kitchen was well known and in many other parts of the world. So we're certainly not just talking about Egypt here. It's interesting I guess you think about it in one way that it is a kind of a window into the human psyche because obviously all you would as it as a human being and I'm sure that people notice this a long long time ago all you have to do is observe for a little while when something dies you know what happens to it. Yeah DKs it decomposes and as so it must must very well be that it didn't take people very long to make the leap in or start thinking about well gosh when I died this is going to happen to me. And the idea of death and decay is a guess as never been particularly appealing to human beings

and so there seems to be an impulse that came into play here probably very early that people somehow had this idea that if we can preserve this physical structure that skin in the bones as much as we possibly can then somehow that means that we won't really die and decay and disappear that somehow one way or another it's help going to help us make the leap from this plane of existence that we're in it to whatever we think of the next plane of existence is. Yes very definitely. And one thing only. Just like to point out it seems that I mean it certainly wasn't a case where for example one culture sort of development occasion and then sort of exported that idea to too many other cultures around the world. It seems to be you know that that doesn't really appear to be the case. What seems to have happened is that human culture is in many different parts of the world discovered how to preserve the dad on their own using just a really wide range of techniques. Now

what. What I think and I'm certainly not alone in thinking this many many experts are starting to to credit this idea as well. It seems to be that when human beings discover how to preserve food. In other words you know when Hunter went out and let's say shot a deer I mean. I mean it. There are certain things that hunters often do I mean they took out they got it the animal took out the internal organs. That was a way of trying to preserve the carcass a little bit longer. And certainly human societies developed a vast range of techniques everything from smoking smoking meat to drying meat salting meat and so on. And I think really what happened in many many parts of the world was that human societies really just adapted those technologies for extending the shelf life of food and they adapted them to human beings and so. You know as I said I don't believe that was the case that you know for example the Egyptians exported this

technology for unwind. I think that human societies you know developed food preservation techniques on their own and then applied them to human beings. We're talking this morning with Heather Pringle She's a science writer who specialize is in writing about archaeology ancient cultures. She's written for many different magazines including discover and National Geographic Traveler and science among others. And she is also the author of two books including In Search of ancient North America and the one here we're talking about this morning the mummy Congress science obsession and the everlasting dead and that's got some really interesting things in there. If you'd like to take a look at it it's out there in bookstores and questions here a welcome we have one person who is ready to go we'll get right to. Others are welcome to call 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 4. Folks here in Champaign Urbana. And it would be a long distance call use the toll free line 800 to 2 2

9 4 5 5. Here's a caller in Farmer city and line number. For so long. Good morning I'm looking forward to reading your book and I have a few subjects I want to do to address the first of. Or if you could go into the practice of the 19th century Egypt I understand that monies were used for fuel in the steam engine. I can't think of a better metaphor of a big paying culture now literally burning its own dead its own heritage to do address that object. I didn't know it's very interesting the origins of that story. The it was Mark Twain who first recorded that anecdote in innocence abroad I believe it was and he described in the engineers an Egyptian rallies. You know asking for around. It was kind of a funny remark

that Twain quote he says when engineer asked him so that the probably in bodies weren't burning at all well and could they please throw a king or a king or a pharaoh up front because perhaps that would burn a little bit better in the firebox. In fact I think that's a I think really Mark Twain had his tongue in the cheek when he was writing that. There really aren't any other kind of historic sources that really support that contention at least not that that I was able to uncover nor that other mummy experts have been able to uncover so I don't think that that Mark Twain was having a bit of fun with that. Certainly mummies were you know almost ubiquitous in Egypt. I read some estimates that suggest that there were in the order of about three million mummies preserved in Egypt an extraordinary number by any by any count and certainly you know people were offering the bodies of Egyptian mummies for sale as souvenirs to travelers

who were touring around wealthy travelers who were touring around in Egypt. So you know mummies were highly visible. But as to whether anyone was actually burning the mummies in boxes of. Really engines up. I'm a little skeptical about that myself mainly because I haven't seen any evidence and because Mark Twain himself had a little disclaimer at the end of that anecdote saying him you know he you know just basically that you know he took this on faith and we should to so I think it's a little unlikely but it makes a great story and certainly it lingers in in just about every man's mind. Take out of the comfort that you like and subject like you to address is the the the Catholic belief and the incorruptibility of saying yes as a proof of a saint and a figure just discussed then. And is there some natural process I mean how is this a common thing of life you dug up any

body you know 200 years later with some of the. Remain in corrupt without the benefit of pay. It's a great question thanks very much for asking not because I didn't. I delved into the subject I was really interested in it myself and have written a chapter about it in my book. What I did was I went to to Italy and I interviewed extensively and spent quite some time there interviewing two pathologists who have been involved in the examinations of the bodies of the incorruptible. In Italy this is done under the auspices of the church the Catholic Church is very interested in obtaining information about the lives of the saints. Often that the. The official legends of the Saints are our own. A bit scanty on facts sometimes about about the lives of the saints particularly the very early ones the medieval saints and so as a result the Catholic Church has a sort

of fairly regular examinations of the saints. They also want to make sure that they're being kept in good condition and so on so these two pathologists have been studying the incorruptible and have come to a number of conclusions about them. There are some instances in the case of some of the saints this is a rather small number but I would say that there have been about 30 or 40 saves who have been carefully examined and a very small number of them from medieval times from a very specific period 13th and 14th century and in Italy these feints were in fact artificially moma fied the practice was very well known in Europe at the time. Contrary to what most of us might believe the practice of monks cation was less frequently I perform I mean modification was frequently performed in the courts of Europe in order to preserve the bodies of royalty for their state funerals. And so

this knowledge was with certainly present in European society and when these when these two pathologists have examined some of the bodies of saints they have seen the clear signs of artificial lung cation In other words the incisions along the abdomen and they have seen you know just the removal of inter Turnell organs. And sort of some of the sort of very standard techniques of almost Egyptian style monks cation I would say use of aromatic herbs and in order herbs that possess antibacterial properties that really assist in the preservation of the human body. So as I say there is a very small number of those two fates which have been preserved you know whose preservation has been assisted in this way. And then there are the saints. Who have been really kind of thing really but whose bodies were annoyed at the time of death. We have various kinds of plant resins

which are known to be antibacterial in nature and in the bodies were wrapped in linen and linen and cotton. Both both these kinds of wrappings I have you know have a kind of a.. Whip away moisture from the body so again the sort of assists in the preservation of the body. And in addition there have been some studies done on the tunes in which some of the Saints have been were initially buried in they were often buried underneath the church floors in tombs that were carved out of the bedrock in some case the bedrock was a limestone bedrock and water drains very quickly through limestone. And there was kind of a very kind of arid microclimate created in inside these tunes which again was very conducive to preservation. So there are there are sort of a number of ways in which. You know those human human beings have assisted in the preservation of some of the saints and also the environment itself has assisted in the preservation of some of the saints no

I mean I certainly wouldn't want to rule out even divine intervention and I don't think any pathologist would would be willing to state categorically that there was not some other agency acting here as well but certainly there does seem to be some you know some explanations for how some of the Incredibles came to be preserved. I say one other topic. And then I'll hang up. If you talk about the Web kaufen you know where he is then at that time gave airtight seals in some of these have been open and you know with corrupt bodies but then they quickly decay when exposed to modern air inside. Yes I mean I came across a fascinating story of this I thought. I went to when I was in London I went to a. A company called the Necropolis Corporation which is just such an evocative name but they it was a company that had been founded in Victorian times.

And it was located in little office in a London suburb Kingston upon Thames. And it was actually in the turn of the 19th century undertakers office in a way. I went to see the people at the Necropolis corporation and they were in the business of what they call the exhumation they were exhumation specialists in other words because real estate in London is so valuable. What has happened in recent years is that property developers have actually purchased cemeteries for redevelopment and this has necessitated the removal of vast numbers of bodies from London cemeteries to two new quarters I should say. So in one particular case the Necropolis corporation had moved 15000 bodies from Islam and. It was very interesting we talked about that and they told me that of those 15000 bodies and this time it's 1 am 5 and rainy down London to the bodies that they found were in absolutely pristine condition.

And you know one of the gentlemen very kindly showed these some of the documentation they document the removal of the bodies scrupulously both with photographs and with detailed notes and so on. So the gentleman at the Necropolis corporations very kind of show me some of the photographs from the exhumation and I must say you know the bodies were spectacularly these two bodies were really wonderfully preserved. They both dated back to the 18th century. And when I asked you know why these bodies had been preserved the gentleman told me that it was likely a combination of things. One was that the body was in one of these lead caskets both the bodies were in these lead caskets. They had been you know very tightly cocked with something called Swedish pitch which was some meat you know made think the casket quite airtight. And then the bodies had been buried in a in A.

A type of soil in the cemetery in the two spots it was a very kind of CLI type of soil and the there had been almost a vacuum a natural vacuum that had formed around the the lead casket in this kind of clay soil and that the people of the crop of company believed that this was what had led to the preservation of these two bodies there. I mean they didn't open I just left dress they didn't open up the caskets but the caskets have these kind of glass plates over the faces and Roger WEBER The fellow that I interviewed said it was you know for the workers it was quite a shock when they dug down and you know clearing away the soil from the glass plate and there was a face of a woman staring back up at them I mean it was just quite an incredible experience for them. But as I say this was a this was a case of lead caskets that were buried in a clay soil I believe that the lead casket in itself is not always not usually enough. It has to be a curve a combination of factors that leads to preservation at least certainly unfair in a

very damp environment like London. We're talking this morning in this part of focus 580 with Heather Pringle She's a journalist a science writer who has written a lot about archaeology and anthropology and if you're interested in mummies you will certainly be interested in her book The Mummy Congress science obsession and the everlasting dead. The publisher on this book is Thea which is a division of Hyperion perfectly appropriate since they always Hyperion wife. Exactly and they sell you here open to questions if you like to call in. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 and also toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 I'm back here to honor the caller and their local. I think in Champaign I think on line number one. Oh good morning. Yes I've got a question I've been dying to ask for years and years and years. I read a statement several years ago that said I when I saw

multitude mommy is that a lot of them were sent over here to America and they were turned into a newspaper. Yes yes. Now could that possibly have been true as well. This is a great question. There are so many of these stories that that have sort of percolated through our culture over the years. Another one of these really fascinating ones. Now I have to say that I myself went again when I was doing the research. I was not able to find any hard evidence of this story I mean it's the story as I understand it is that during the 19th century there was a shortage of cotton at that time. Paper was made from cotton and linen rags. I mean it was very common to do this. And there was a shortage of cloth. And so I believe the story goes that that there was a very enterprising entrepreneur who decided to import Egyptian mummies and then stripped them of the of their bought their bandages and

then used the bandages as the raw material for paper. And indeed there's even an additional aspect to this sort of a curse of the mummy kind of twist to the story. And the story goes that the the regs were infected with cholera that the mummy bandages were in fact infected with cholera and that cholera spread through the mail and that eventually the American government had to pass a regulation to prohibit the export of mummy bandages. So I mean certainly it's a it's a very kind of it's a neat story it's very colorful very detailed but I wasn't able to find any real hard evidence of it. And nor was there. There is a scholar who has written about this story in great detail a fellow by the name of Joseph Dane who has written a real neat paper on it. But there doesn't there are no surviving examples of this paper. There was no one account that suggested that there had been a

newspaper on the eastern seaboard which had actually published in an edition on this paper but this. But there has been no record found of this of this paper so I at this point I would say to the best of my knowledge it's it's a really interesting story but there doesn't seem to be any really hard proof at the moment that that is true. But you know I think that the jury's out on that one. OK. Thank you I'd wondered always very. Thanks for the question. And probably there are as you say many different stories about an Orthodox uses for mummies. One apparently though that is the that is actually true is that mummies were ground up and they were used to make a pigment that were that was included in the paint artists. Yes again that in fact is it is verifiable that that story is perfectly true as as hideous as it may sound to us. Mummies

were exported from Egypt beginning probably and in Renaissance times and it carried through right until. And this is just sized right until the nineteen one thousand and four. We know for sure that it was still going on in one thousand and four because there there is a magazine article that was published in London on not on the use of of Egyptian mummies for the paint pigment that was called either mummy or Egyptian browned. I have two names and the magazine article actually had photographs of. People working in what was called the color man which was a type of business that supplied artists materials to artists and perform other kinds of services for artists. And this this magazine article actually shows people employed at the firm grinding up the Egyptian mummies with a very heavy stone. The powder

was then used to make a pigment that was very popular there are several accounts written accounts of English papers talking about using money or Egyptian Brown and is actually just a really wonderful story I think about two British painters. One being a fellow by Burne-Jones in the other one in Elma tabla. And they have both been very interested in painting Egyptian scenes and film a tad and I came back one day from visiting his color man and he had just found out what was actually in Miami. I guess most painters hadn't really realized that there were human bodies being ground up to make this pigment. But when Elma Tahoma learned the truth he came came to visit his friend Burne-Jones right away and he explained to him what what he had discovered and Burne-Jones went off to his studio and came back with a tube of money in his hand and Bridges was just horrified by this. So they they had a little ceremony they dug a hole in the back garden set up a few farewell

words parting words of the kind of funeral ceremony and then they buried the tube in that in the back garden. And you know it certainly that the pigment was very pretty pervasive on a European painters. So apparently a lot of people just thought that it was a it was a it was a cool name and they didn't really realize that in fact it was what it said that it was definitely I think there was a lot of misconceptions about it. But indeed it was definitely made from human bodies. Yeah very interesting. Let's continue. We have a number of other callers obviously people are interested in this subject. Let's go to Oaktown Indiana wine for Hello. Yes. The thought occurred to me a few minutes ago that like in Egypt and China the very rich and the very powerful mon fired their people. Why didn't you. Well it's an interesting question that you raise here. It's very true that that in civilizations such as Egypt and China

people did in fact reserve long vacation at least initially for you know the very rich and powerful and indeed this is this product as was true in many other cultures you know many of the other civilizations as well people reserve this for the rich and powerful. As to why India didn't do it that's a that's an interesting question I don't know that I really have the answer for that because one of them they do burn. They did. Oh yes indeed they did. I have read one account that suggested that in ancient times in Egypt our part meaning in India people did indeed. Preserve the dead in a in a honey compound and then and only then did they did they burn the body but I have 11 able to verify that so I didn't take that much further in my research. I you know I am afraid I don't really have the answer other than to suggest that religious police in India really ruled that

out as being a you know a good funeral practice time you know. Yeah but one thing I do want to point out though that it is certainly most occasion was practiced in cultures that did that were not. You know for these these you know big important civilizations and I just like to go back to a point I made a little bit earlier which was that various very earliest mummify as we know of were in northern Chile and what I what I really want to stress here is that in the case of this very early Church chilling group modification was very elaborate. The monthly mummies were you know just rated and then they were coated in a kind of Ashy paste that that hardened into almost like a ceramic like substance. And then they the mummies were painted so they have this almost almost ceramic like body suit and with beautifully painted I mean these mummies really looked to me like they should be in a Museum of Fine Art at the very earliest ones

that were made it by this particular culture were all that were all children. And it seems to me that the original impulse to modify the dead at least in northern in northern Chile was perhaps arose from a parent's grief in other words. I mean I can just really and really see this clearly in my mind's eye that a mother or a father just could not bear to part with a child. And so as a result had devised a way of you know keeping the child with them. And to preserve that child's body and to make that child's body beautiful forever for eternity because certainly we still have these bodies 7000 years later. So to me it seems like the original impulse was not to mummify was not to preserve the high and mighty but rather it was you know from that if a parent tried to preserve the body of a child in a much more kind of human impulse that I think we can all identify with. OK. Thank you.

Thank you. Let's go to file for the next caller. Line two. Hello hello. Yeah if you ever heard that cats were shipped to the United States and large quantities to be used as fertilizer from India or Egypt. Yes. Great question another is this it's really interesting this is another one of these tales that we hear. And in fact this one I believe is true. Now I haven't actually heard the question. Cats are Egyptian mummies Egyptians mummified millions and millions of cats I mean this this sounds so strange for years today but they they in fact these these cats were intended as offerings to the gods. And they the Egyptians actually raised cats in categories. I mean it was like almost like a factory farm production in some parts of Egypt. And they literally moma fied millions of cats as offerings to the gods. The cats were wrapped in linen you know very similar to the human mummies and

you know it's very true. I mean I certainly read accounts and this does seem to be well substantiated that mummies were. Export it can't move these were exported from Egypt to England to make fertilizer for roads rose beds rose beds but I haven't actually heard of any instances of this trade being conducted between Egypt and America. It certainly it's possible that I'm just not aware of it myself. OK so the story about the newspapers know that none not on that one but at least as far as Britain is concerned cat moments for fertilizer. Yeah exactly. Yeah ok to another call here ban on line one. Oh yeah I had heard that. Currently bodies are decaying more slowly because of the food preservatives that we consume. Oh I was I was wondering if that there was any truth to that. And also how how well can we

preserve a body nowadays not to hang up on what we can think. That sounds to has it has the ring of an urban legend to me. It's a great you know I have to say I had heard that story before a vote. Bodies preserving because of all the food preservatives that we eat. You know I really can't comment on that because I hadn't heard that one before. It does sound intriguing and I'm afraid I just can't add a shed a light on that one at all. After the second question however of how well we preserve bodies today. There's a couple points to this one The first is that. The embalming that you know that that that is very prevalent in North American society today that tends to be a very kind of short term process in other words it's usually intended just to preserve the body for the funeral proceedings and is not intent to be a long term modification technique.

However there are services in North America that will modify the dead. There is a company based in Salt Lake City Utah company called him that will undertake a kind of Egyptian style kitchen. I should say Egyptian style month cation using some fairly high technology chemicals and so on today but soon them will in fact mung five the DAT is very expensive. I believe it's in excess of $60000. And then of course there's always the option of cryogenic as well which is the. The freezing of the human body. And there are several firms in the United States which will agree to to preserve the body by means of some of freezing you know with with liquid nitrogen and so on and I think that some you know both of these represent real options to

people who do want to preserve their bodies for a very long period of time. I'm sure that I had read somewhere recently that freeze drying had actually been nudging out the traditional art of it. On a great nominee can't think of of the worst of the skinning and protected Army endure in preserving animal specimens. And that I don't know are our people. One wonders whether anybody's offering that service for you. You know when your spouse goes and you'd like to have them arranged tastefully on the couch so that you can sit there with them offering the same sort of service. Yeah it's funny I don't know I haven't I haven't come across city services that would offer that but I've certainly read the same the same Probably news article that you had about the freeze drying of pets and it kind of tweaked my my fancy I've got kind of an older cat myself right now also.

I would like to keep our cat with long as possible. We have talked about the something about various places that that moment mummies have been found and mummification has taken place and it seems that in many of them a key item is that the environment is extremely dry. Yes. And what happens is that the bodies very quickly become dried out and that's part of why the. They are preserved. But it's interesting that in in Europe in Northern Europe there have been a number of mummies that have come out of bogs which is an extremely wet environment and you think well this is kind of counter intuitive I can understand how in Egypt because it's extremely hot and dry that this would work toward helping preserve bodies but how is it that a body could be in a wet environment like that and and also be to a large extent preserved. Yeah great question. To sort of understand it you have to know a little bit about the decay process and I promise not to go into any kind of really graphic gory details but essentially decay happens because of a certain kind of

protein molecule. Certain category of protein molecules I should say in our body These are called enzymes and these enzymes are really the main agents of decay we have them in our cells in the nuclei nuclei of ourselves and during our lifetimes they actually perform a lot of really valuable services. But after we die these enzymes start leaking out of ourselves and start sort of corroding and digesting sort of everything in sight. In addition to that source of enzymes we also have in zines in the bacteria of our in our in test will track our in our G.I. track and again after our death these bacteria begin chomping through the intestinal walls and kind of ride the veins which are the superhighways of our bodies and they kind of wreak. You know they just kind of go bother their dirty business. Kind of again digesting everything in sight. And then the third kind of source of in zines would be the insects that feed on cadavers.

So in times are really that the real agents of decay as I as I as I say and the real key thing to make them up in making a mummy is that you have to shut off the enzymes you have to somehow be able to turn them off. And there are really two ways of doing that. Enzymes are real water lovers. They love water and they need water in order to you know. Decay the body I mean they really must have water so if you deprive them of water you can shut off the ends of manic decay. That's one way of doing it. But the second way of doing it is to make a chemical environment that is hostile to the enzymes and this can be done in a variety of ways in the case of the bog bodies. These are the bodies that are found in the bogs in northern Europe. There is a chemical environment in the water of the bog that is very hostile to the enzymes. What it what happens is that there is a time the

chief form vegetation in a bog of something called Magna Moss. And as it DKs it produces a series of chemical compounds each of which is hostile to informatic decay so that in the bogs of Europe bodies that are placed in there are are preserved. They they're almost all the bodies looked almost as if they had been tanned tanned you know. You know if you think about leather They almost look like kind of a levee very brittle brittle leather when they're when they're dried after being taken out of the bog but that's sort of that what these enzymes do the bodies but it preserves it. Partly that's what this chemical environment does to the bodies and it can preserve bodies bodies for literally thousands of years. We certainly have bodies that go back to the Roman year Roman era and beyond. We have another call here in a couple minutes we're trying to get them in there in Indiana on

our line for hello hello. Yes. Freeze drying is different called because of fat in the body. For one thing that occurs over the site but I don't know if there were a proper prior right. It's not about you know Ramon effect. Q I wonder if you might be able to answer this question. I'll try. I was traveling in Europe a few years back and I met a woman on the train whose nephew wanted to bring him back from the pirates and she said you know where I can buy and I said no I had no idea but anyway later on I was in the British Museum and I thought well if you if it's available at all it should be here. And I asked the fans and she said no but why don't you go back and talk to Dr. banker banker about this and she said You go past the Elgin marbles and turn left and right which I did and he came to the door to the laboratory rang the bell. He hit one of his assistants took me back to see

him and I asked him you know about piracy he says well we've been trying to make it here and we get a pirate's from Kew Gardens and then we can buy it and pound it and he says oh we never been very successful 99. At any rate give me a couple blades of prior great stride where started my road back into the country because of the five years old for that anyway a couple of years later. There was an article on the front page of The Wall Street Journal in that column that be devoted to cultural things rather than trying to answer all. And it talked about that prior is being made today now do you have any idea of where or why or oh you know I'm again it's not really an area that I've done very much research on but I will say that certainly in Cairo there is actually an institute in which people at least profess to be making piracies by traditional techniques. As

to the use of the real degree of accuracy I'm afraid I can't really tell you that but. I too have had that experience of the British Museum of taking that left turn in the right turn and then ringing the bell and going down to visit the Egyptologists who are sort of installed in the British Museum and in the basement there are a lot of crap memories there. Yes I know the place you're talking about but I'm really sorry I just can't comment on that and I'm afraid that we're going to have to stop because we've used our time and there is so much that we could talk about including medical research on mummies and other sorts of things and would just have to call a halt for the moment but maybe on a future day maybe when the book comes out in paper we should say. If you'd be willing to spend another hour with us we could find some more things to talk about. Oh I'd love to and by all means yes. Well thanks very much for talking with us we appreciate it. Thank you I've it's been a real pleasure David. Our guest Heather Pringle Pringle and again her book is titled The Mummy Congress science obsession and the everlasting dead published by it which is an imprint of Hyperion it certainly should be able to find it out in the bookstore now.