Focus 580; Who Owns Death: Capital Punishment, The American Conscience, and the End of Executions

Good morning and welcome back to the second hour of focus 580 This is our telephone talk program money as David inch glad to have you with us the producers for the show. Jack Brighton and Harriet Williamson and the Jason Croft is on the board this morning. In this hour focus 580 will be talking about capital punishment in America. What attitudes are and in fact how attitudes may be changing. Our guest for the program is Robert Jay Lifton. He is a psychiatrist. He's director of the Center on violence and human survival at John Jay College He also teaches at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. He is author of a number of books will be talking this morning about his most recent which he coauthored with Greg Mitchell The title of the book is who owns death. The subtitle capital punishment the American conscience and the end of executions as published by William Morrow and company and in the book they argue the authors among other things that some time in. In the near future they expect to see capital punishment abolished in this country.

We'll talk about that and other things. And of course encourage calls from people who are listening. If you have questions comments they're welcome. All we ask callers just one thing try to be brief in your comments when we ask that so that we can keep the program moving along accommodated many different people as possible. But you're welcome to call if you're here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Also we have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 so you can use that number whichever works best for you. And if you match the numbers with the letters on the phone you get w I allow So that's another way to do it. Three three three W while Al and toll free. 800 to 2 2 W while a doctor left him. Hello. Oh thank you for talking with us. I'm happy to be with you. Just right up front maybe I will ask about the two conclusions that you in your preface say you reached

two things that surprised you. And here's the first one you write that you find the prevailing wisdom that America is fiercely in favor of executions is largely wrong. Right. It's wrong because it doesn't take into account the shifts in American consciousness which the polls have really indicated. And also the contradiction between Americans still seemingly having the need to have the death penalty on the books but having considerable reluctance to carrying it out when you consider the hundreds even thousands of people on death row and still despite the increase in executions the relatively few executions you can begin to understand this disparity and the for the finding which is very significant especially in the last year or two is that not only is support for the death penalty diminishing in sequence of polls being taken but when you juxtapose it with

life imprisonment without possibility of parole it no longer is support for the death penalty. It's something like 50 percent and sometimes dipping below 50 percent. It's only in the last year or two that Americans have developed confidence. In the possibility of a sentence of life imprisonment without parole as that sentence meaning what it says. And with that confidence in that alternative sentence there has been this radical drop in support for the death penalty. Of course the problem with surveys is it all depends on how you ask the question. What you're suggesting is that if you ask people their feelings about the death penalty and then you say to them if we if we could guarantee that this individual who was found guilty of murder would be put in prison and would never ever absolutely get out. Would you then be willing to say it's ok life sentence instead of Beth death penalty.

We've seen an increase in the number of people who given that assurance would say All right well in that case I would say put the person in prison for the rest of their life. Not at all. Of course life imprisonment without possibility of of parole is itself a draconian punishments. It's no minor matter but what what the sequence of polls in this direction does show is that Americans aren't fixated on the idea of legal killing of state murder in response to the murder on the part of individuals. Part of the part of the support of the death penalty has been a response to the fear that these murderers will murder again. And it's that fear that's taken into account in the alternative sentence of life imprisonment without parole. And of course it is true that society has to protect itself from those who might kill again. Even though this kind of recidivism is relatively

rare except in serial killers. But it is a real concern that has to be accounted for in society. It seems that a good deal of the erosion for support of the death penalty is due to the increasing numbers of individuals who had been convicted or awaiting the sentence and then were exonerated and seems to be that people are starting to be concerned about people incorrectly convicted. That motivates their concern more than the idea that in the abstract there's something wrong with execution on moral or some other basis do you think that that's that's the case and I think that may be true. Well I would put it this way. I think that Americans even in supporting the death penalty have some inner doubts. And it has often the form of takes the form often of a sense that to kill people to have the state kill people is a form of hubris to take lives

is something that only God has the has the ability or the right to do so that even with support for the death penalty there is that inner doubt that there may be something wrong with killing people. Having said that there is now. Rush of evidence of wrongful convictions of people on death row who can be established to be innocent with the very important help of the new technology of DNA tests. The improved technology of DNA tests is very crucial here because it gives us a scientific means of clearly establishing innocence. And that's why the so-called Innocence Project Barry Scheck and others takes on such great importance and also Governor Ryan's moratorium in Illinois which as you know took shape after he had incontrovertibly evidence given him by law professors and law students that a sizable number of people on death row were indeed

innocent. And I think that the idea of putting to death innocent people is really something that's intolerable to the American people. There still remains in the American people a strong sense of fair play and what more wholesome and violation of fair play could take place than the killing of innocent people. And this in turn I think really reveals the difficulty and the ease of carrying a death penalty in a democracy. Now I think here in the state of Illinois the figures are rather sobering. It is the case I hope remembering this correctly has been a while since I looked at this but I believe that it's the case that since the death penalty was reinstated here in the state of Illinois 12 people have been executed. Thirteen people have been exonerated and it was when the when the balance tipped at one point it was two it was 12 and 12 and it was when it went to 13 and 12 that's when Mr. Ryan imposed a moratorium I'm not certain why it was

so much more different when it was when it was 13 and 12 than 12 and 12 but that's I'm not sure that it was you know fundamentally difference 12 or 12 or 13 but it was if something was taking shape in Governor Ryan's mind and it had to do with a conscience kind of governing the conscience of a governor of a political leader. Which which called upon him to avoid an act which might end in the death of an innocent person or a number of innocent people and its Governor Ryan's act and his own journey have been enormously important in this whole issue because as you know the moratorium model that he established has been taken on by a number of other states and cities and areas. And it was purely an act of conscience because Governor Ryan as you know had always been in favor of the death penalty and had been a conservative Republican governor. So it's a

very important act in this whole sequence and in this shift. When the shift in consciousness of the American people that's taking place. Let me. There are number of things that we can talk about though and I have some callers so we'll get right to them but let me just for a moment also then go to the other of these two conclusions that you talk about in the preface that you say surprised you. The first we talked about the fact that it is our perception that America is fiercely in favor of execution is in correct the other. You're right this our second conclusion also challenges conventional thinking we believe that even as the execution rate soars the death penalty's days are numbered. Yes well when we began to say this a couple of years ago people thought well you know they're being wishful it's a nice idea but can you really believe it. It's interesting that now people are more and more tending to agree with us there. Everyone senses that there has been a

major shift in consciousness. Just one indicator it seems smaller maybe not so small but during the second debate the notorious exchange the presidential debate during the campaign the notorious exchange that took place on the death penalty. Most people will remember those who witness the debate and it was when Governor Bush President-Elect Bush. At that time responded to a question about good and evil by saying well we are putting to death three people. That's the that's the act of true justice. In fact he exaggerated as only two people were being put to death but the whole spirit was an enthusiastic endorsement of the death penalty. The reaction of the American people at that time was in a way surprising. They tended to be appalled by this enthusiasm and Bush had to backtrack and subsequent statements and even Bush himself and we quote him in our book.

Said on a number of occasions that decisions he made against commuting sentences were among the most painful decisions he made he ever made as governor and he also indicated that he had to in some way call upon a higher power. In a sense ask the will of God again. Perhaps expressing in his mind and in the mind of so many others the idea that this decision is not one that should or can justifiably been be made by ordinary human beings. There are other indications of the shift in consciousness and one of them that we emphasize in our book is the increasing evidence of pain unease and even post-traumatic symptoms on the part of those assigned to carrying out the executions. And we find enormous ambivalence on everyone concerned with the death penalty or in everyone concerned of the death penalty from governors to

prosecutors to juries to judges to wardens to teams who are in charge of the actual execution process. Everyone every group of those people no matter what the state what steps are taken to diminish their pain or their ambivalence. They all express misgivings doubts ambivalences. We're talking this morning with Robert J. He is. He is director of the Center on violence and human survival at John Jay College. He also teaches at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York and has done research and written on a wide range of topics. He's done psychological research on the problem of apocalyptic violence. He has written on Nazi doctors on the problem of genocide he's written about nuclear weapons about the Chinese Cultural Revolution about survivors of Hiroshima. He's written a number of books his most recent which he coauthored with Greg Mitchell deals with this topic we're discussing today. The title is who

owns death capital punishment the American conscience and the end of executions and is published by William Morrow and company we have a caller others are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free 800 to 2. 2 9 4 5 5 color here is in Champaign County on line 1. Hello. Excuse me I am at lunch right now so I'll try to get this out as a where I had occasion to hear Governor Rogers an address to the New York law board or I'm getting our go station a Bar Association you know it was a couple weeks ago it was just replayed on alternative media here and I was happily surprised contrary to the great code Republicans who are having this givings about Ryan for a number of other reasons including the death penalty moratorium which around here there's a judge that gets on the radio in the local chat shows and said that he technically had no no right to do that kind of thing. But anyway

in this questioning of the death penalty actually went further than the death penalty and he has apparently authentic misgivings about the entire legal system is the way it's racially and class I don't think he actually used those words but. It isn't just he's not just questioning the death penalty itself he's actually questioning the judicial system now. How will I judge. Justice is meted out to people with different levels of the society which is rather astonishing in. Well I didn't hear that address but from what I understand Governor Ryan has been on a kind of political and spiritual journey of his own. He he really performed a very courageous act in initiating that moratorium and in my view and since that time he's read up on the whole issue talked to people and probe more deeply into the whole problem. Well I don't know whether he raised this issue but one issue for many of us has to do with the relationship of

the American legal system specifically to the death penalty and that of course has to do with both the death penalty and the way the legal system functions. We have as everybody knows an adversary system. It's a very intensely adversary system. And perhaps it's one of the better systems because each side has its day in court and has its own arguments from its own side. But anybody who watches these things has to have a profound sense of unease and absurdity at the idea that this adversary system can result in the death of a human being because the adversary system is really a contest game. And it. Once upon the skills and maneuverability and cleverness of those participating in it and it is also now widely known as Governor Ryan and others learned. Often people accused of people receiving the death penalty get very very poor legal defense so

that the people playing the game are very bad at it or not even interested in it. But the idea that the skill or qualities of a particular lawyer is in playing this legal game in engaging in this content can result in a death is what we have to look at here. And that's the heart of the problem in the relation between the American legal system and the death penalty. Other lawyers who have worked in IT have said and I think convincingly that the death penalty tends to corrupt the whole legal system. It drains its resources and it leads to the kinds of. Options in lacking in the lack of authentic legal defense that I just mentioned and it prevents society in many ways or at least impairs the capacity of society to take the kind of steps that might diminish that this sort of violence and homicide that result in the problem in the first place. He named that specifically and he went on to even talk about police abuse and

the DA abuse in the sense of. He was very harsh in condemning people sentenced to death for jailhouse informants or someone who gets out gets out of jail free gets for testifying against him but he says the guy confessed to the crime and in jail when I was with him and I was absolutely surprised. I don't know that it's going to do is political career any good but I do trust that he might sleep a little more comfortably. Yes and I do very much I got to go. Well thank you for the CO. Let's go on to another caller here this. Urbana with line number two. Hello. Good morning I have to agree with the last caller. Governor Ryan's address to the New York Bar Association was stunning really. The man is I believe is trying to be an old Lincoln Republican in his own way. And I wonder why it is that we have to listen to Amy Goodman and democracy now from Pacifica Radio in order to find out what the governor of Illinois is saying and

why that address couldn't possibly be broadcast over w i l l. The question is really for you David. Thanks to the last caller by. OK well I have to be perfectly honest with you and say that this is the first that I've heard about it. We can broadcast things when they're made available to us. There are questions of rights and so forth. Perhaps we can look into it. And find out more about it let me send another thing about Governor Ryan and his conscience that the two callers have both been struck by what he said in this address and we have to hear notes the kind of spiritual journey that Governor Ryan has has embarked on and that tells us that people can watch that one isn't in a fixed position forever. If one opens one's conscience to it and there's no issue in American life that calls upon the American conscience really more than the death penalty.

As far as we know I think we believe that throughout human history capital punishment has. Existed. That's not to say that there weren't times when people said that we weren't that they were going to do that but given the fact that it seems like it's it's been around for a long long time and that seems to be motivated by a very elemental feeling of justice that still exist today. I'm interested in how it is you're thinking about how that that thinking comes about and how it is that for those people who would say that if a person commits murder if they kill another person they should die. Simple right. It's a simple matter of moral equivalency how it is that if if that is an individual's reason for supporting capital punishment how you how you make some sort of counter argument to that.

Capital punishment has been around from almost the beginning of history it's true. One has to counter that statement though by saying that capital punishment has been abolished throughout all Western contemporary democracies so that some time during the 20th during the latter part of the 20th century there was something in the way of an advance in history. And we have to be grateful for any such advances which raised questions about a very ancient custom. And what you're raising in talking about it is and these these issues can never be totally clarified. The relationship between let's say Justice retribution and revenge. Certainly when there's a murder when this killing on the part of anyone is a universal call for justice the person. Guilty if it can be if that guilt can be clearly established has to be called before the doc before some kind of tribunal or retribution

suggests that a society must have some means of punishment that's appropriate to the act. Revenge suggests that one uses fierce physical measures and very likely murderous ones against the person who's accused or established himself as a murderer. The the idea of revenge has never left us and certainly it's a very human feeling that anybody would be likely to have if he or she had somebody murdered in ones own family and we say in our book Greg Mitchell and I if that happened to one of us we would be the first and have the strongest kind of vengeful emotions. But then we ask ourselves would we be able to step back and raise the question of whether the state should kill again to get at the problem in perhaps the cutest ways but

that are meaningful. I did a study of Nazi doctors earlier on and I was much concerned with the nefarious career career of you know says Joseph Mengele. And I talked to many survivors who had been under the power of Mengele and who had witnessed his evil actions. And I talk to them about their feelings about Mengele. When much was in the press about whether he was captured with that was his body that was found and so on. And there their tendencies were mostly. Let's bring him to justice. Let him come before a judge a jury a doc and be accused of what he did and recognize what he did to us. That was their primary emotion. Over the years feelings of revenge had diminished they hadn't been absent but it was more justice and some measure of retribution in a way we can say that or at least I would think that society is capable of

recognizing vengeful feelings impulses toward revenge when terrible crimes of this kind are committed. But at the same time refusing to act on those vengeful emotions and taking hold of a system of justice that stops short of killing. We see that in the absence of the death penalty is a functional arrangement now throughout Western Europe and through a good part of the world and we have no reason to believe that it can continue to be so. Let me ask another question that you indeed pose and at one point in the book where you look at the history of executions in America and that is why is it that capital punishment has proved so endure. Being in this country. Yes that's it's a nagging question and it has to be addressed. You know there are many theories about it and nobody can be certain and we raise really two interwoven historical currents in the United States

that we think are very important. One is what I've called in other work the American habit of violence. And it has to do with the front teeth here and with the the worship of the gun even though that worship has been supplemented by economic and by the gun lobby and its enormous economic benefits but nonetheless the worship of the gun and the. The the relationship of the gun to our creation mythology in the American Revolution and the glorification of the militias often in ways that aren't entirely accurate historically which has continued. Into various particular guns and then later guns and gun ism as I call it in other work or a terrible word or a gun ocracy in which the gun has taken a sacred place. And we do lead the world in guns in their numbers and and their dangers. That has been

interwoven with an American evangelical impulse from very early on toward absolute distinction between good and evil and retribution toward evil and separation from the good in very absolute polarized ways. And that habit of violence tied in with a kind of polarized sense of good and evil certainly can contribute I believe it starkly to the American continuous embrace of the death penalty. But in saying that it doesn't mean that this has to be the situation forever or that historical tendencies can change just as Governor Ryan has changed significantly in an individual psychological and political way. So can the American state and so is it now changing in relation to a larger historical currents. We are a little bit past the midpoint of this. Our focus 580 we have other callers will get to in just a second one take a moment to introduce Again our guest we are speaking with. Robert

Jay Lifton. He's director of the Center on violence and human survival at John Jay College and also teaches at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. He is the coauthor of the recent book that explores this issue. If you're interested in reading on it you could look for the book it's titled Who owns death and it's published by William Morrow and company. Questions are welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. That's for folks who are here in Champaign Urbana where we are and toll free anywhere that you can hear us. There would be a long distance call for you. The toll free line is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We have couple of callers here in Champaign we'll take them in the order they came in starting with line 1. Hello. Hi. Well a couple of things. First of all I while I support Ryan's change of heart I wonder how much that influence that epiphany is influenced by his own legal problems that he's facing corruption scandal gets closer to him. But also I mean in point you may have I didn't catch the very

first part you may have pointed this out. You know the absurdity. Of the appeal system and they have a serial system as I think has really pointed out by a case that. As I recall you in the initial appeal of a death penalty where the lawyer was falling asleep during the trial and the court ruled that this you know in of itself wasn't sufficient evidence that you know you didn't get an adequate defense and that they had to show something more than the mere fact that the lawyer was you know falling asleep during the trial. And as far as psychology. Also curious what you think about what I find sort of a schism between people who are opposed to abortion but support strongly the death penalty. Well to take your second point first. The whole relation of the Catholic. Hierarchy of the Catholic bishops

particularly to the death penalty is interesting in that regard. Some years ago the bishops pastoral letter on nuclear weapons which was a major document in the anti-nuclear movement. It was predicated on bishops being prodded by their younger priests to be consistent in their conscience so that if they opposed abortion they must oppose the mass death that could be potentially caused by nuclear weapons. And the bishops were honorable enough to to declare that consistency and one can say this is a similar process taking place. I don't applaud their anti abortion stand although I'm no lover of abortion but. But to be consistent many oppose the death penalty and the pope has now taken a stronger stand against the death penalty than he has in the past. So that I think among many but not all of the Catholic hierarchy. The idea of opposing the death penalty is consistent

with a right to life stance that has to be honored. Course they don't have as much influence in the media as Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh and folks like that who it is true that a lot of the Christian fundamentalist movements strongly support the death penalty though occasionally they've wavered also in cases where prisoners have had some kind of conversion reaction in prison and they have then questioned the death penalty. I don't think that the support for the death penalty is absolutely fixed in any area of our society. Although the Republican right and the fundamentalist Christian groups are perhaps its strongest area of support. Well thank you. All right thank you for the call. We'll go to another show. Pained person this is lie number two. Hello. Oh yes. As an aging topic

one of the couple of things that I would like to ask the author is let's look at something that many of the Americans in this capitalist society definitely rule their lives on and that's what is the bottom line. How much does the seeking prosecutors seeking the death penalty end up costing their county. Because most of these capital trials end up costing the counties all around the death belt in the southern part of the United States and and even to this extent to you know in the Midwest seeking of the death penalty capital cases the costs far exceeds that of confronting a suspect with the knowledge that we will seek the life without the possibility of parole. And we know that maybe the evidence is overwhelming and the cost for life without the possibility of parole when amortized both in the in the in the trial phase of seeking you know of the

guilty plea and then take caretaking of the prisoner is extremely less expensive over this long term. There's a kind of painful dynamic here as you rightly say. There's nothing more expensive than seeking the death penalty and it's been established again and again that it costs much more to put a person to death than it does to keep a person in prison for life. And that cost as you say. The bottom line elements have to do with the cost of the prosecution. The costs of the execution and of all of the appeals. Now one way of cutting down on these bottom line costs is to try to diminish the possibility of Appeals correct down legally on the right to appeals. However when you do that to doing that at least doing it completely is hard to carry through in a democracy right. Once you start cutting down on appeals you're really questioning. I think the democratic

process particularly when it can end up putting a man to death. And in that way there's a continuous struggle around these issues which is another way of saying that the death penalty rests very easily in a nation that calls itself a democracy. One of the last things or two things I would I would I would like to I would like to hear from more listeners that more can possibly more conservative nature on their on their considerations in the time remaining. And the last I would like to know if you have any information because capital crime and the seeking of the death penalty in a trial phase. Seems to be a large propellant for many prosecutors into higher political office across the United States here in Illinois and everywhere else. How many of the House of Representatives and the United States senators got where they got because they were

tough on murder. I'm going to hang up and let you hear if you got any numbers. I'd like to hear how many folks got where they are by doing that. Well I have no idea about the numbers I can't answer that but what I can say is that the real point of what you're saying is that there is an enormous political edge or political center one might say to decisions to make cases capital cases. There's a political judgment what will this do for me for my party in this state in this county. And when you stop to think of it that's having to say the least unacceptable motivation for a capital case. Having said that one begins to have the right to wonder whether the political capital is diminishing or whether the political weathervane may be shifting in that regard. One indication is that a President Clinton. He's still president for now himself. Praise Governor Ryan

for his moratorium even though Clinton has been a notorious advocate of the death penalty. And in other federal cases now his support for the death penalty has at least subsided or weakened so that it may be that there is a change here which can and politically affects those who are using the death penalty for personal and political purposes. And it may be that in the future it might not be so beneficial to one's career to press for death penalty cases. I think we're seeing that switch. It's not going to occur at any one sudden moment of saw Turi. But it can be a gradual incremental process that we're in the middle of right now. Oh about 10 minutes left in this part of focus 580 again. Our guest Robert Jay Lifton is director of the Center on violence and human survival at John Jay College He also teaches at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York.

And if you'd like to read more on the subject you can look for a book that he coauthored the title the book is who owns death capital punishment the American conscience and the end of executions published by William Morrow. We have several callers here. One quick question I'd like to ask and then we'll go get back to the phones here. I think that some of the people who continue to support. The death penalty do so because they believe that it has a deterrent effect. That's something I know that various criminologists and psychologists have looked at. Do you think that there is there is evidence to show one way or the other that either is or is not. There is lots of evidence that shows that the death penalty has no deterrent value whatsoever. Every single study has had this conclusion. There is a suspicion though not established that the death penalty may be an impetus a stimulus to further violence. But it certainly has been established that there has never been any evidence that it has any deterrent effect. Then one must ask why do people still insist that it does have that deterrent

effect. And again to go back to that notorious exchange during the second presidential debate both candidates first Governor Bush said yes he's in favor of the death penalty because it deters murder. And then Al Gore said yes he's in favor of it. And so far as it deters he was a little weaker but he still connected it with deterrence. They were both wrong because all the evidence shows that there is no deterrence that results from it. I think that there's a psychological NEED to believe that if we kill murderers and the word gets around people will stop murdering. That seems logical but it doesn't take. Human psychology individual psychology into into effect because it can be often the opposite effect. Very often murderers are as well suicidal they have been psychiatric studies establishing the relationship between murder and suicide and in effect the death penalty could be an attraction to killing because then the

state will carry out one's suicidal inclinations for one. So I think one has to look very critically about the idea of deterrence and uncover it as an illusion. We have other callers let's go to Urbana one number one. Hello. Good morning. Yes. Yeah I have a question for the caller. When he was before he was talking about the sort of mythology at the end and I was sort of it kind of dawned on me that in this country the level of violence is really high for a country where there's no war. You know inside the country and I'm I'm really I'm curious as to what the speaker thinks is the reason for that is like why do we allow so much violence in our country. Well you know I mean there's so much violence just done everyday citizens that no one really really looks at. Yes I agree and. We are a violent society and I spoke earlier briefly about the habit of violence that goes

deep into our history. Of course we're not the only country with violence but we seem to have more of it and more gun centered violence than anybody else. And I think that part of the motivation for supporting the death penalty is to quotes get rid of violence and to get rid of crime get rid of murder it's as if one is one is doing something about this nagging and frightening problem of violence. Of course one is doing the wrong thing and one is committing more violence in the name of combating violence. But it can give people a sense that at least some measure is being taken. And the other thing I would say in relation to the point you make is that yes we haven't been oh well I can't say we have been at war for some time the Gulf War is not that old. And even the Vietnam War is not that extremely old but. One prosecutor we quote in our book as saying that he's an ardent

advocate of the death penalty and seeks capital cases because he sees himself on a mission. He said Our generation hasn't had a war to fight. And I take this to be our war our mission. So in that sense it can be a substitute for war an expression of the quote's war on crime which sadly may be motivated partly by the impulse to get rid of violence but is that it is a way of pouring more violence into the society. OK I hope the caller will forgive me for wanting to go on here the lines are full and time is short let's go to Champagne next. That's line number three. Hello. Oh good morning. Yes I am for capital punishment because of the way I understand the Bible. Now there's a big distinction that if it's murder. To be

punished by capital punishment if it's manslaughter or something like that it is. And a lot of times the people that are convicted as murderers because the prosecutor is trying to make a name for himself and so he doesn't. Use all the evidence that he has and I think that's the reason a lot of people get the blame for murdering somebody when really they are innocent. Well you know I respect your view and. I'm no great authority on on on Biblical terminology or rhetoric but I think one can say that the Bible says many things in it and Christianity has taken opposite directions in relation to the death penalty and other issues. One can one can embrace the idea of a vengeful god a vengeful Old Testament God and see in the continuity of that

justification for the death penalty. Or one can take the wisdom and the compassion of the Sermon on the Mount as an expression of compassion of and against state killing and against the death penalty. And certainly many people who who work in opposition to the death penalty system pre-shot is a is a very notable example do so from their Christian roots and it's out of that Christian compassion that they oppose the death penalty. Let's go to another caller this is Savoy line to you. Hello good morning. Yes Dr. Lipton. You know it's been presented at the psychiatric association meetings. Did you hear that question. No I didn't. Maybe a call you help us if you'd speak up.

But as the doctor spoken at the psychiatric association meetings I've spoken many times at the American psyche access station but not yet on the death penalty. It's not OK. I thought I'm sure I will you know speak before psychiatric groups in one place or another in relation to the death penalty. But I thought you were Jewish and I was wondering if therefore you could tell us what the various thinking of the theologians in American Jewry is about the death penalty. I'm Jewish but I think that Jewish thought is divided like as is other thoughts on the death penalty. And there can be ambivalence and there can be compassion in opposing the death penalty coming from Jewish sources as as comes from Christian sources and even Islamic sources. Let's go on to Crete here lie number four for a last person. Yes I would like to say that there's also the racial component that you didn't mention

you know the long with historical and religious and also the fact that we've just learned the man who had been responsible for more executions than any governor in history this country does not bode well for your futuristic propositions. And secondly each year the number of people executed go goes. So I would like to have a response from the original as the governor being a new president and the fact that each year we have more excuses. Well I could only hear most clearly the part about the racial aspect which is very important because it's been shown again and again. If you're a minority person if you're black and Hispanic and you kill a white person you're much more likely to get the death penalty than if you're a white person and you kill a black or Hispanic. That in itself is direct evidence of the uneven inequitable application of the death penalty. But it's worse than that it's not only race and ethnic group it's also which county you happen to be in whether they have

a very zealous prosecuting attorney who has ambitions that are connected with the death penalty. And what the political structure is in that particular county or state and it's this uneven and irrational application that turns many Americans that violates the spirit of fairness and turns many of them against the death penalty and which I would further add some people will say therefore Well why not fix it and make it equitable. Well you can never fix it perfectly because there's always the flawed human approach. There's always human error. And to that extent in so far as we cannot eliminate human error I would say we have no right to have the state kill people. I think the caller asked it made two other point. It's one that every year the number of executions increase. The other that now the president elect comes from a state that is I don't know if it's the number one state in executions but if it leads it's a leading state in executions he said those two things taken together might cause you not to

be very optimistic about the death penalty going away anytime soon. Yes. Well you know what. What we feel and of course my co-author and I have talked a lot about this and we've written a couple of op ed columns about it and we think that despite the incoming Bush administration and Bush's strong support in the past for the death penalty we shouldn't assume that the opposition to the death penalty will be overcome or that it will cease to function or that it will not grow. Bush himself has made statements indicating a certain ambivalence about the death penalty despite what he said publicly and it looks as though there's a turn around very slightly in what was formally a steady increase each year in the number of executions. It looks like in the last few months or year they may be slightly declining. It also looks as though there is a widening. Opposition to the death penalty and with a focus on Tex's

as a state that kills more people than any other state in the union. So all these aspects along with the very very important new technology of DNA so that when we come upon the very first execution followed upon by DNA tests that demonstrated that executed person to be an innocent man. When that happens it hasn't happened yet but it certainly will happen. There will be another turnabout and another jump in consciousness in opposing the death penalty. So in general I would say that despite our our very rational worries about the Bush administration in relation to the death penalty one shouldn't assume that opposition won't continue to grow. Well there we will have to leave it because we are at the end of the time we want to say to you Dr Lifton thank you very much for talking with us today. Thank you it's been an interesting dialogue for me. Our guest Robert Jay Lifton is director of the Center on violence and human survival at John

Jay College. He also teaches at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. His book if you would like to read it is titled Who owns death. It's published by William Morrow and company. Our program focused 580 made possible in part by a grant from the massage therapy professionals at bodywork associates and champagne with helping hands and plant education the physical therapist said bodywork helped clients learn to reduce pain and improve their quality of life programming on W while also made possible by a grant from the Silver Creek restaurant for O2 North Ray Street in Urbana offering fine dining for lunch and dinner in an historic Urbana setting that includes a greenhouse dining room Silver Creek offer steaks fresh seafood vegetarian dishes pastas fine wines and more for more information call 3 2 8 3 4 0 2. That's it for us. We want you to stay tuned though for the afternoon magazine the host today Jay Peters and I think David in Happy New Year to you. It's good to have you back after the holidays and coming up in this first hour of focus the focus of the afternoon magazine we are doing the transition here.

We will have our regular segment of news and information and of course talk to Mike mikes will be here to answer your weather questions if you have some travel plans this weekend you want to pay particular attention because as you can see outside we've had some snow.