Focus 580; Racial Profiling and Asian Americans

It seems that age an increasing number of Americans who just a month ago would have said that they were opposed to racial profiling now would say that it is necessary maybe even appropriate to fight terrorism. Just to cite a couple of results that came out of polls and surveys and there have been a lot of them for example a recent poll done by CNN and USA Today and Gallup found that fifty eight percent of Americans supported the notion that all Arabs including American citizens should undergo special more intensive security checks before boarding airplanes in this country. Forty nine percent said they thought that all Arabs including U.S. citizens should have to carry a special I.D. card. The L.A. Times found in a poll that they did a couple of weeks ago. Overwhelming support in the wake of the attacks on September 11th for allowing law enforcement to randomly stop people who may fit the profile of suspected terrorists. This morning in this part a focus 580 We will talk about racial profiling and Asian Americans. And we have two

guests here with us in the studio. George you who is head of Asian-American studies at the University of Illinois and is a political scientist and he's certainly here been here before on the program we've talked about China. Relations between China and the United States also with his has put us on a bug a Paul who is an emeritus professor of social work. Here at the University of Illinois and they will be taking part in a panel this is the fall Asian American studies program council meeting that happens on Thursday afternoon tomorrow afternoon. It's taking place at the university wide talking about this issue and they'll be some other people taking part in this. And I would expect that if people who are interested in attending that discussion listening and taking part certainly should feel welcome. Thursday afternoon at four and lesser hall of the university. Why. And we thought it be a good thing for us to spend a little time talking about here this morning and they were good enough to say they'd come over and give us some of their time. The number if you'd like to be involved in the conversation this morning 3 3

3 9 4 5 5. We also have a toll free line that's good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 3 3 3 wy L.L. toll free 800 1:58 WLM. Thank you both very much for being here. It certainly is clear that in the days following the terrorist attack on 11 Sept of September Asian Americans Asians in this country have faced increasing discrimination and in fact it seems that Americans were not even being very discriminating in our discrimination because not only is anyone who looks vaguely middle eastern has has faced this. Excuse me. Even Latinos apparently have experienced it people have been booted off of airplanes because they the crew the other passengers said these folks made them nervous. We have seen things that have to very clearly be labeled hate crimes.

People have been killed just because they looked like they were Middle Eastern. How do we understand this how do we think about this and does history give us any guidance and thinking about this and dealing with this do you think. Well first of all I think all Americans Asian Americans included we mourn the loss of lives. September and we join you know this to say how terrible the event was and we hope the people who were involved can be brought to justice. As President Bush and others have said. But having said that I think it's very very important that we do not go overboard in a moment of passion and condemned all who look

different among Asian Americans that we have a say in that because the most of us if not all of us look slightly different. We are forever foreigners in a land which is very free which we came on our own accord but which we are a. A minority and I think I think I think America as we used to say as a militant part that welcomes all has to be very careful in not going to the extreme and putting necessary burdens and pressures. And in this sense as we know since the 11 September event it has put a panic into subgroups. For example we know people who for example from the southern European regions the

heritage who look a little bit darker some of them have expressed fears that they may be mistaken for Arab-Americans and they're very concerned. And I've even seen reports of Americans taking their children to county registers to change the name to Smith because of the concerns I think we have to be very very careful because this country is made up of many racial groups and and I think as we were later on they have been have been incidents that are very disturbing and we want to raise the awareness consciousness of how we deal with this very delicate issue of not mislabeling people. You know I agree with Professor Yoo who is saying I do agree with him that

the tragic events of September 11th is something which has affected all Americans and we are already sad about it. The progression of the same as has been mentioned is that certain groups of American population are treated differently there is a fear there is a panic and there is sometimes even a very irrational kind of a behavior on the part of many Americans. No one of such groups is what we call commonly as South Asians that is people who come from the subcontinent of India South Asia usually consist of countries such as Pakistan India Bangladesh Nepal and Sri Lanka. We have had many tragic incidences where such hate crimes have taken place against people coming from this part of the world.

For instance one Sikh gentleman seeks are those individuals who usually wear a turban and beard and oftentimes ordinary people mistake that as the Afghans or even bin Laden's group because of the turban and the beard but they are very different. They're not in any shape or form connected with that group. Now on September 19th in Mesa Arizona one of the Sikhs was killed. The other part of it is that recently on our own campus at University of Illinois last Friday the 21st of September there was a hate crime against a student of South Asian origin and he was beaten up on the campus. So these kinds of things are not just incidental cases that are quite a bit happening and it wants to be very careful that one does not generalize these things as Professor you pointed out that this is a country

of immigrants. Everybody has come you know their own religion. The South Asian presence is also significant and historically everyone wants to look at it that the first Sikhs they came to the west coast in 1890 and they have been the farmers there and there was a lot of. And time. Mr. nation law they could not marry interracially they could not bring their wives. So the group did not become too large. But at the same time. Their presence has been significant. They have contributed extremely significantly for the development of American society working on the railroads like other Asian Americans would they have been instrumental in developing the beach and the applecart to produce of California. They have been very instrumental in developing the timber industries in Washington and as well as in British Columbia.

Now the South Asian population remained very small till 1965 legislation when the immigration. The quota system from each of the Asian countries only 100 people were allowed to come immigrate to this country in 1965 when the legislation was passed and which abolished the quota system. We developed what we call as a professional system that means people who brought some technical skills and professional. And the population since then of South Asians has increased significantly the 2000 census officially comes out to around a million and a half about I would imagine to say that it will be a little over two million. There are about almost half a million people who are of South Asian origin who are primarily from the Caribbean island or Trinidad Tobago and British Ghana which is now Ghana. They have come and many times they are

counted as Caribbeans and not as South Asians. So with this kind of cooperation increasing there is a fear because these people bring very drastically different values different ethics. Religion is different. Their food habits and oftentimes even clothing because the South Asian immigrants probably are one of the few immigrants who still maintain their native. Dressing code again stands them out as not as an American I should take a moment here to introduce again our guests. Paul is professor emeritus of Social Work at University of Illinois George you is head of Asian American studies or do I have the right George. You know you do. And also with that hat too. Right. He's also professor of political science at University of Illinois we're talking about racial profiling and Asian-Americans will continue here in just a second.

For people who would like to join the conversation here in Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. Just to pick up on that point I wonder whether indeed you think that now as a result of what happened there will be increasing restrictions on immigration that would apply perhaps not just perhaps people who would be coming from countries of the Middle East but to South Asians and West Asians too. There might be some sort of a blanket statement that said well we're just going to be very careful about and and any Asian person want to become United States. That certainly is a very important question now. As we know that in the United States international students a large number of them they come including I don't know on campus and what is

disturbing. For instance the senator from California Senator Feinstein she's introducing a bill to restrict student visas for next six months. Now there might be some you know Realty in it but at the same time one has to be aware that South Asia as well as East Asia almost all the Asian countries do send a large number of international students and we're very well adjusted on that campus and it would be a shame to put that kind of restriction. Now I hope it doesn't have a ripple effect and move from the student visa to some other kinds of things like visitors. I'm sure that will have some impact on those individuals who are waiting to get their residency or what is commonly called as a green card applications being approved in that moment.

Very much appreciated the comments professor or bug report because I think there is among Asian Americans and other other immigrant population that there is a certain degree of prevention in this moment of passion we might institute laws and re restrictions that indeed have been the bases and have made this country great because Asian Americans as other minority groups of different religion just records have made an important contribution to the economic binge. And so show diversity of all of America. And if we're going to single them out. I think not only is this in my opinion morally wrong but it could have a immediate impact upon America it's self.

But going back to the question of racial profiling somebody has has made this interesting comment which may or may not be relevant to our case. And it is this. After the Oklahoma. Would it have been appropriate for the FBI or some other agency of government to send out a bulletin said we should now watch out for all white Americans who drive a pickup truck. When we think about that it is rather disturbing because this is coming. No. To hunt people like Asian Americans who look different because now there is this suspicion of South Asians and not to mention Arab Americans because they look as we look different. We are under a sufficient America unfortunately has

has a history which doesn't speak well for the future. For example as we know and we will talk about it on Thursday. Following the second world war we interned over one hundred and twenty Japanese Americans one hundred and twenty thousand I think the pardon because they look different and they were under suspicion in the last few years that we have the famous Vincent itching a case up in Detroit who was beaten to death because people took him for a Japanese and they thought the Japanese were stealing the share of automobile market. And just recently as we also know we have the famous Wen Ho Lee case that he was accused of spying and it is now quite clear one of the reasons they

centered on him because he was a Chinese American or Asian American and he was suspicious he was suspected of doing just one thing. But this has been proven not to be true but this is all what I would call falls into the category of racial profiling. And I think we have to be conscious that this could be a very dangerous thing. And my fear now in the heat of passion at this moment there we have to be on guard we don't carry this too far. It would I just would like a little bit. Now when you're talking about racial profiling. We have got to look at it that way. Who is doing this profiling. Is it done by the law and order. All results are done by the citizens at large. You know immediately after the tragic incidents of September 11th number of cases were reported by South Asians especially the Sikh community who

where are either arrested or interrogated by the police authorities on suspicion. But then we also know that a large number of these population have been victims of hate crime by general public. There are a number of instances where young children throughout the country were of South Asian origin have been getting hostile remarks by their peers in schools in the neighborhood and they are scared to go to school. As I mentioned earlier the gentleman may 0 Arizona was killed on September 19th. So you know the whole issue we ought all to look at that they hate crime and racial profiling is something if we are to we take it seriously it has to be done at all levels. Many of the South Asians are working on jobs which are

risky jobs. As far as I'm concerned a large number of them certainly are very professionals and they are in the highly specialized technical fields whether it is medicine or engineering and other kinds of things like computer science. We also have a fairly significant presence of cult agents on other employment which I was kind of a risky things for instance if one looks at the 7-Eleven convenience stores which are located in off areas and most of those things are owned by the South Asians 30 to 40 percent 30 to 40 percent of the cab drivers in major metropolitan areas are driven by South Asians. You find newstands now for instance all you have to do is go into New York and then see the subway stations and the newsstands owners are were all owned by South Asians. So gas stations you know one can go on and on and these are the places which are

open sometimes 24 hours and the place for major crime is that. And not with this kind of thing taking place in this climate there's a danger of people just going and taking out their anger on these innocent solid citizens. Let me ask you this question because I think that there are some people who would say they would say we want to say obviously hate crimes are wrong. We also would say that for law enforcement for example to target someone who just who was just walking down the street minding his her own business just based on what they look like would be wrong. But they would say particularly a situation like this if where there would be nothing wrong with increased scrutiny of a person who appeared to be of Middle Eastern origin who was getting ready to get on an airplane for example they're saying in broadly we say no profiling is bad. But in a specific

situation where we're hoping to prevent a specific site it sort of crime. I think there are some people would say well OK as long as we're just talking about this this very narrow application do you do you see a distinction there. What my fear David in this one is really that this is a country which protects every citizen. It's a country which protects everyone's liberty and the constitutional aspect of that is unique. Probably you know there are some other countries but the United States is certainly one of the places where we can be very proud of. So indiscriminately picking somebody we have got to be looking at how that affects the civil liberties issue and are we violating the constitutional rights which has been given of course. Yours is a political scientist and he knows more about it and I don't know anything about it or I would fully support what you said. I think our constitutional rights are very precious.

We are among the few countries in the world there are others of course that have equal rights but I don't think they keep using the word in the moment in the heat of the the passion where we want to safeguard our lives and and property. We have to think very carefully before as Attorney General Ashcroft apparently is pushing Congress to pass certain laws. We have to be very very careful that we don't go over the edge because once we do go over the edge the question is how do we recover these liberties and how does going to change our lives. And I'm very concerned about that as I'm sure. Many of the people we do want to see if God lives and property. But at the same time these principles of freedom that we have fought so hard for this country has fought so hard must be safeguarded. Let me just as we're here at the midpoint I'd like to introduce again the guests for this part of focus

580 George you professor of political science here at University of Illinois who is an emeritus professor of social work. They are here to talk about this issue here we're talking about racial profiling and Asian-Americans but I do want to mention one more time that the Asian-American Studies Program Council will be having their fall meeting on Thursday afternoon at the university Y and will be talking about this issue and press you Professor bug will be among the panelists for this discussion talking about why it is that it seems so often in times of national crisis and tension. Asian Americans have faced increasing discrimination and what perhaps history can tell us about all of this. And they have said that anybody in and around the campus that's interested in listening to discussion or taking place should certainly feel welcome to stop by Thursday afternoon 4:00 o'clock at Lancer hall at the university why. And of course questions are welcome. Three three three. W y l l toll free 800 1:58 WLM.

Just for a little bit I wonder if I could ask you a different sort of a question and you could speak about it from your perspective being people involved in higher education. According to the Middle Eastern Studies Association out of all of the colleges and universities in the United States something between 50 and 70. Probably they don't know the exact number off for degrees in Middle Eastern or Islamic studies. Apparently they're one of the best known programs Middle Eastern studies in the country is at University of Texas at Austin and there they have 50000 students out of those 50000. They have 100 undergraduates who are majoring in Middle Eastern Studies. When you look at study of Arabic languages it's estimated now that we have something in this country like 100000 people studying Russian. We have five thousand five hundred people studying Arabic and now we know that that agencies in Washington you know the State Department the FBI the CIA they're putting up this desperate call for people who who speak Persian and Pashtun and. And Arabic. And it

seems that we have we have a really crying need for people who study and understand the politics the languages and the culture of this part of the world. Will it do you think now universities move in the direction of perhaps trying to offer more opportunities to students who want to study these things. Well let me just comment on this on this campus. We do have a small but good at least to the program. We do have a small but good Arabic program. But I quite agree. These are areas at least in the the study of the Arab states. And the teaching of the culture and which has not been as well developed as we should and indeed as you said government agencies just desperately looking for specialists

in that part of the part of the world. And we don't have them. I know from my own experience and I also am head of the Asian Studies Center on this campus. I know it was only after the Sputnik event of the 50s that this country suddenly. Became aware of the need to support the study of East Asian and South Asian languages. We need perhaps such a program for the Study of the Arab culture and languages in this country because we know at least in that part of the world. If I'm not mistaken the population the Arab population is at least one hundred thirty two hundred fifty million. How can we neglect not knowing about that part of the world. So I am a person who absolutely certain that we have to do something to remain. This hiatus.

I agree with what you is saying. If you look at it historically in the 50s and till about the mid 60s there was a fair amount of funding for these kinds of programs especially South Asia East Asian countries. Then suddenly in the 80s 70s and 80s you saying that there was a more emphasis because of the economic shift more money was given for Japanese studies for instance because of the employment opportunities trade and whatnot type of things. My only concern is that number one the academic institutions must support it. Strengthen their programs not only South Asia or East Asia or West Asia but the whole that part of the world. But the second part which

I'm more interested in also is that we don't do that for the wrong reason that we have not trying to educate our students to understand the culture to understand the regional languages and what not type of things to meet the needs of our law and order the kind of things but I think it has to guide how that kind of an academic integrated because these programs are also very strong ones which can contribute to the ethnic studies and that is a controversial issue which you will see being debated now. Well let me also and I want to return to two ethnic studies and the problems of racial profiling which is the central topic. This morning I think is that on this campus we have done a lot though of course we could do more of trying to promote different different ethnic

studies center such as Asian-American Latino African American and others because we realize that we live in a more cultural society. America's greatness is the fact that we bring together people of different backgrounds. But these people of different programs. Not always fully understood. And this we have the question of racial profiling. In a moment like this I mean we suspicions that anybody who looks different or comes from a different background who worship a different religion therefore are suspect and I think if there's anything that this lesson of 11th September Ken teaches is that we cannot look at people at a shall we say skin deep approach. We have to really understand what is the whole issue and what is the nature of this background. And what do they do

and how they have contributed to our society. We have some callers to bring into the conversation. Let us do that. We're here at 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. That's for Vanna folks Champaign-Urbana folks toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. As always we welcome your input. We'll start here with Urbana and line 1. Hello. Hello how are you. Yes good thing. I want to say that we need people about one reason not to profile is that we'll miss everybody else who may not fit the profile. I mean if we're only looking for people from the Middle East what happens if that occurs. The United States. So we have to be careful not to because when the people that are there. Well I would absolutely agree with you because. Because we just cannot suspect or accuse one

subgroup of of all of America or once a group in the world population as being the only people who can do initiative. As you said we might miss out on on another group. In fact in this context if we look at the pattern of the all of the incidents so so far going back to the attacks upon the American Embassy in 10 Zinnia and Kenya and then look at the the previous attacks on the World Trade Building in the early 90s and then look at the attacks upon the American warship Cole and then we look again at 11 September. We see different targets. And these people obviously had been ahead of us in terms of the planning which goes back to the point you make and if we just look at one specific group. By profiling them we might miss indeed

a lot that we should have been looking at in the first place. We can feel safe if we're only thinking of what happened in the past. You know that was just another killing time and I well thank you thank you it's a go. Let's go to have another Urbana persons is lying too. Hello. Yes hello I'm the former director of the Jewish Federation Champaign-Urbana. I want to I'd like to raise another point here. Back in maybe 20 years ago there was a rabbi who was a hothead he was he was very vocal in his bigoted remarks his name was Mayra Kahana. He had a lot of press. He was assassinated a number of years ago by one of the people who was implicated with the with the first World Trade Center bombing. He was ostracized by the organized Jewish community in America almost 20 I mean along many many two decades ago more than two decades ago. He was he was basically cut

off from speaking. In the hell off foundations across the country which are campus organizations for to a student he was he was cut off from speaking at any main Jewish organizational event in the country. He moved to Israel he became a member of the Knesset and he was barred from the Knesset by the by the Israeli government because of the things that he said. The point I want to make is that it's easier for each community to sort of police itself and to take care of its own people who who who respond like this. And so I'd like the guest could comment on what's the responsibility of each community to take care of its own people who can sort of create the problems it's like you know the very small percentage of people in each community that create the problems. Whose responsibility is it to have to deal with them. You know the United States is a multicultural society with a

pluralistic kind of cultural rules DIC ideology. Now if we accept that as all citizens then we have the responsibility for the country first and that means if we find that there are some issues in our groups then that means that group has got responsibility to take actions as well as. Notify the appropriate authorities. So I totally agree with you when you're saying that the Jewish organizations and institutions barred the infamous rabbi from coming in speaking. I think that was a very correct and appropriate step. The Jewish institutions took and I think that is similar if we do find that any of the ethnic groups members engage into such activities. They should not only be barred but also have to be brought to the attention of the authorities. If I may add a point here I totally. Agree.

However I beg to differ in this since as in terms of what we are facing is an American problem. It is not a Asian-American problem. It is not an Arab American problem. It is not even a Jewish program. And we must act collectively if we begin to separate ourselves into subgroups. I'm not sure we can survive the American dream. So while I commend you for the idea of self policing which I have no trouble with. I think we should also look at it in the a macro sense as a national problem. And that's exactly what I was trying to say that you know we are a multicultural society multiethnic multiracial one multireligious society and that means we have got to accept the differences and diversity and that means we have got to be willing to share the responsibility

of the country as one. And so we are primarily Americans. So I agree with Professor Yoo that this kind of fragment ising is not the right approach except where I do agree with you by saying that many times the small ethnic groups might be aware of such a rogue's in their constituency and so they can probably bring that to the attention. Well that makes perfect sense to me. So then what is the next step how do we work together and encourage our own respective communities. To do that to bring people to attention. Yes or you or whoever or whatever needs to know what people are actually saying. Well I don't think the problem is that simplistically is solvable. I think if like for instance was the president after the September 11th incidents as well as other leaders have done is saying that

this is not a war against Islam this is not a war against Arabs but this is a war against terrorists. I was extremely impressed by the interfaith rally which was held in the Yankee Stadium. And to indicate again to reinforce the fact that it is a multiethnic multireligious. Country which is this one. And I also feel very strongly that the political leaders as well as the civic leaders visiting each other's institutions religious institutions and lastly I was reading The New York Times a couple of days ago where it was in our in our op ed section was indicated that the religious institutions and religious leaders have a very major responsibility and bringing this into their congregations and educating their people about the multiethnic nature of our society

right now. So I think it's not simply to just go to the authorities that easily. OK thank you very much. Thank you. We have about 10 minutes or a little bit left in this part of focus 580 talking with you it's you who is head of East Asian studies here at the University of Illinois and a professor of political science policy on a buggle policy emeritus professor of social work. We're talking about the issue of racial profiling and Asian-Americans and questions are welcome three three three w wild toll free 800 1:58 W while I'm at it. As you say Professor Polly it is in we we do have a multi racial multicultural society all the same time I think we have to acknowledge that this country has not always been welcoming as as welcoming as we might like. There have been Asian people coming from various places in Asia coming in settling in the United States for a long time. And yet it seems fairly consistent that one hears Asian Americans talking about the feeling that they are still

viewed no matter how long they've been here no matter how long their families have been here still viewed as outsiders. Why. Why do you think that that is and is that particularly more of an issue for Asian Americans than it might be for more Americans of other kinds of ethnic background. Absolutely. Absolutely. Excuse me I have spent all my adult life in this country but still I get questions. You like living in this country. When are you going back home now. My two adult daughters were born and brought up in this country. They still get the questions. Where are you from and when are you going back. Do you like living in this country. So those kinds of questions are going to be asked.

Doesn't matter how long one lives. But I think what has happened is that as you said it is a multiethnic multiracial society but we have a pecking order and deviance diversity was seen as exotic up to a while. But when that population started coming into a large number the dominant group is getting very threatened. At least I'm not talking about the entire dominant group but at least a segment of that. Because they feel that these people are hardworking they are going to take our jobs away they're going to take the piece of the pie and we'll have to share with them and these kinds of things. And so many times those individuals who do not fit the profile of the traditional European ethnicity they are seen as foreigners and they are still seen as outsiders and that is something which will take a long time. Now of course the profile of the American population is changing rapidly and I hope that that kind

of a different situation will end. But there's only a hope at least you know. Well let me. Let me return to a used to earlier Asian Americans among ourselves as well as from you know nice Americans have always been given the idea that we serve. FARRANT and is partly if not mainly because of physically you know appearance we do look different from the dominant group. I'll give you a personal example I was at a friends house at a party over the weekend and I met a senior professor here and after talking to him for a while he said. He said Gee you speak quite good English don't you. Well implicit in his remark of course was that I didn't look American and therefore why should I be

able to speak English. I don't want to condemn this person. A senior colleague. But this is very common among the general population here and these anti outside as you know type of sentiments usually occur during times of stress economic stress. And then when we have these moments then people begin to differentiate between the inside and the outside. And unfortunately for Asian Americans in times of stress. But there's always this latent sense that we are foreigners we are not really genuine. Americans even though as Professor Paul said and I can say our children were born and raised here their children being born and raised here we are as much Americans as you are David as anybody who is an American and yet we still face this

every day. Shall we say outsider type of attitudes being held by others. How is this going to be overcome. Well on this campus we have the various ethnic studies program. We are trying to raise awareness and hopefully we will can attribute to the gradual a restatement of these insider outsiders type of attitudes. Your few years ago I would make this very short only a few years ago my wife and I were driving going to school and some of the other. The. Police officer stopped me and he said that I hate you for that. Wiley did some traffic things but I don't think I did. So then he says that I'm going to give you a warning citation. But and I said fine. So when he comes back and he says you know country we we don't drive like

this. And after I got the citation in my hand and I looked at him and I says you know something officer this is my country this is my county this is my town. And I says you just Wiley did my civil rights. And I says I hope you understand that you know you cannot judge people and start telling who they are. So you know these kinds of things is very prevalent and I think half the time it is ignorance of the time it is fear of the time it is prejudice. Well I think that would be a good point for us to to stop it which we must do in any case because we've come to the end of the time one more time I do want to mention that again that the Fall 2001 Asian American studies program council meeting taking place on the University of Ally campus Lancer hall four o'clock tomorrow afternoon that's it one thousand one south right at the university why. Our guests here George you Paul and others will be having a panel discussion of this this issue racial profiling and Asian-Americans and anyone who has been around the

campus who is interested in listening and taking part in a conversation they should feel welcome to attend. And I want to say to the two of you both thank you very much. Thank you thank you.