Focus 580; Buddhas Warriors: the Story of the Cia-backed Tibetan Freedom Fighters

Good morning and welcome back to the second hour of focus 580 This is our morning talk program my name is David engine glad to have you with us the producer of the show Harriet Williams and Martha Diehl Henry Frayne. He was at the controls in 1050 China invaded Tibet officially the Chinese government says that this was a peaceful and a popular occupation but in fact thousands of Tibetans took up arms against the Chinese in defense of their homes and their culture and their religion. In this hour of the show we'll get the story of the Tibetan resistance to China and also the clandestine support that was provided by the United States and our guest for the program is author artist Michael Dunham. He's written a book on this it's recently been published his title is Buddha's Warriors the story of the CIA backed Tibet and freedom fighters the Chinese invasion and the. Fall of Tibet penguin his publisher the book that's out in the bookstores. If you would like to read it. And Michael Dunn's way into the story interesting enough came really through Tibet an art something that he was very interested in and studied.

And in the course of doing that he came to know some Tibetans and he heard some of the stories of the Tibetan resistance to the Chinese and felt that this really was a story that needed to be preserved and told. So he spent a number of years interviewing people who were involved and the book is the product of questions here are certainly welcome here on the program. The number if you're here in Champaign-Urbana where we are 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have an toll free line so that means if you are going to be making a long distance call that number is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 in the call will be on us. So again here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 and toll free 800 to 2 2 9. 4 5 5 Mr. Dunham Hello. Hello Dave and thanks for talking with us. Thank you. We certainly appreciate it. At some point here I'm interested in having you tell a little bit of the story about how it is that you got

involved in wanting to find out more about this but maybe I would I would say that and we can do a quick overview here to start and perhaps you know two points that that are worth making and you certainly make in the beginning of the book is that historically the Chinese felt that Tibet was part of China and also historically going back a long time. The Tibetans felt that they were an independent nation. Right. Well you know and this is a point of contention that has been going on for centuries and centuries. The far back of a hundred a de Kooning truth and doesn't have to bat who is a mighty general among other things. Actually one of the strongest power in Central Asia and took over the then capital of China's yuan. And so the Tibetan boys regarded themselves as independent of the Chinese the Chinese on the other hand and always contended that their emperor

was a uncle by quote unquote who the Dalai Lama. And there was a kind of patron relationship between the two countries. But using that they have argued that they are actually the the owners of Tibet. And this really doesn't stand up to the test of what is defined as an independent country that has its own language which is in no way connected to Chinese. That's Burma related language. They have their own specific brand of religion called Tibet and heard of them which has nothing to do with. China is a religion. They have their own culture their own art and this goes right down the list. And but most importantly the people themselves regard themselves as Tibetans not Chinese.

And this is why the problem is has not gone away. So why the Tibetans rose up in arms against the Chinese when they came into Tibet in 1950 and essentially created a giant land grab which the rest of the world sat back and watch. And historically there is this. The Chinese claim on Tibet as being at least in their sphere of influence if not part of China. In more contemporary times what really is the interest of China in Tibet. Well if you want to go back to 1950 for instance when they invaded the country there was a tremendous amount of natural resources which they coveted including gold and silver and ore and incredible amount of Virgine temblor all of which mainland China needed sorely and then added to that list

once they invaded they realized that there was your reign him and borax and all these other things. So in terms of of raping the fuge country of the saddle resources that was terribly important for the Chinese. They were destitute coming out of World War Two. Preceded by the occupation of the Japanese and then the civil war with the communists against the commune tongue which was headed by the Nationalist China of and. And it was a very profitable move on their part to move into Tibet. Apart from that it's also strategically very important because it is a buffer zone between the behemoth of the then Soviet Union to the north and to the south.

So it's perched on the top of the world and it's a wonderful place to be in control. Prior to World War Two What was the position of the United States in regard. Bet Well this is interesting that they really didn't know anything about the united about to bat the files in the State Department were few and far between it was very hard to get any good information about what was going on out there in fact the fact that no one knew anything about it was a nice aspect of Tibet as in terms of the State Department because it just in that it was a huge neutral space on the atlas if they didn't have to worry about. However once Japan became involved in World War Two Asia became much more important in Washington and they brought out old maps that they had and they were very interested in being able to transport arms and ammunition from

India in to excuse me Western China and the only way they could do that was to go through this mysterious land called Tibet. And what happened was. Franklin D Roosevelt said well we need to we need to send an envoy to the five called about him find out if we can give them some arms through their territory and see if that upsets anyone. Wild Bill Donovan who is the creator of the South which later became the CIA. Well you know we've contacted Chiang Kai shek and he says no problem we can. We don't even have to talk to the Chinese citizen to the US. Will will guarantee that you can have a safe journey through Tibet. But once he made a few more roads he found out that the Tibetans On the contrary there are no Chinese in our country. And if you try to come

in there's going to be big problems you have to come through us through our government which is in fact what the United States did they sent on the envoy there the Shoggoths of the cabinet. Of the Tibetan government gave them permission and the Tibetans felt that they had secured an international treaty with the United States which helped them to define themselves as an independent country. In fact the envoy had no authority to do anything such thing. But they got what they wanted. The Tibetans help the United States with the 7th of arms without the Chinese improvement and approval because the Chinese were in no military position to back what they claimed they could do. Let me verge very quickly for anybody who might have tuned in last couple minutes reintroduce our guest We're talking with author artist photographer Michael Dunham and he is the author of the book Buddha's

Warriors. It looks at the resistance to the Chinese invasion of Tibet that took place in the say early to mid 1950s. His book is published by touch Putnam is out there now the bookstores we like to read it questions are welcome to 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2. 2 9 4 5 at the eve of the the Chinese coming in as the battens looked at China what do they think about the Chinese and did they particularly feel that there was any kind of imminent threat. Well there had. When you speak of the eastern provinces of Tibet that bordered on to China mainland proper territory there it was then and a bit of travelling in between the two countries. In my book I call it the silk curtain those opposed to the Iron Curtain because

it sort of blew back and forth and the borders were kind of hazy always there was some intermarriage along the borders and. Prior to mouth a tongue rise to power the commu Tong or the Nationalist Chinese led by Chiang Kai shek had had a minimal presence in the border areas of Tibet the Tibetans didn't take them very seriously because number one they were poorly armed. They were guys who didn't want to be there. Many of them were addicted to opium and the Tibetans thought that was a terrible thing. They were basically a minor nuisance but something that wasn't really threatening. They had a few Kara scattered up and down the border and the INS took delight in actually raiding them on occasion and helping themselves

armed. They really weren't concerned about them and they had such a low him. Impression of the Chinese that they assume that mouth a tongue wouldn't be much different though the previous Dalai Lama the 13th had issued a very clear warning before he died that the that the communist Chinese were very much a different breed than any of the Chinese that they had ever encountered before. They had the example of the the communists going into Mongolia in the thirties and playing havoc with the monastic Buddhist system. Mass executions of Lama of the blowing monasteries to visit cetera and the Dalai Lama the previous day where if the reson they do that is truly going to and in deep trouble. When the Chinese first sent troops in the first troops in

1950 it was. It didn't exactly look like an invasion. And the Chinese were. They came in and their thing was we're here to help you we're here to could do good things were your friends and that that was the face initially that was put on it. What in what constituted this initial move of Chinese troops into Tibet and what at first what did they do. Well this is the thing that everyone has understand you know nothing tongue was no fool. He realized that he was invading and occupying a foreign country. It was not like being in China saying to the poor people Power to the people etc. etc. He was actually going into an entirely different culture and taking it over. And so his approach had to be entirely different. And he instructed his troops. To be very respectful of the

monastery is to help the people with their harvest to not take anything to buy everything that they needed. You know in terms of supplies and to not create any kind of problem when they came in from the east they said we're just here to build roads which have about had none and provide other niceties of the 20th century we're going to provide you with 20th century medicine. We're going to help educate you we just want to make you our neighbors a happier country and then after a few years when we've helped improve your lot in life we're going to we're going to live. And so it didn't feel like an invention. It felt like more like huge construction and road crews coming in to help the the ancient yak trade route and to help the people.

There were some who never bought it of course and were very skeptical of what they were doing. But in the first couple of years particularly there was there was even a certain amount of acceptance because it actually didn't generate extra income for the border of Tibetans. You talk about the fact that these areas of Tibet in Eastern Tibet where the the rebellion the uprising really took root is home to some of the toughest people in Tibet the kind of people that other Tibetans are a little bit weary later leery of you know people who are really known as being fierce fighters very independent the kind of people you don't mess with. How would we know when these when this foreign power sent troops sent soldiers in even though they said oh we're just here to do some some good things for you particularly in the in this part of Tibet. How did what was the

initial thought rip people when they saw these Chinese soldiers. Well I would say it was more of what the Chinese thought when they saw the compost and. And they I'm done on the go like the three major tribes. If you're into that because these guys were true warriors they were dead eyed marksman. They all had weapons they had these huge sabers. They were fearless and they had a reputation that went back as far back as a gang of Kahn who said I'm not going to fight these guys I'm just going to pay them and incorporate them into my army. It's one of the few areas in which he didn't. Rough Ride into power here he actually courted the compo warriors the ongoing core warriors in the Guard and in the same way the the Chinese soldiers were in office and they

they were in the Army because they had been forced to join the army. They had nothing at stake. But for many many centuries the eastern Tibetans had big time fierce warriors because there was no one to protect them but themselves. Even though they considered themselves Tibetans even though they were the most fiercely devoted followers of the Dalai Lama and loss of the capital they knew that they could never rely on the army from central Tibet. This is in large part because of the top dog refusing the some of the most mountainous areas in the world. There are gourds of that are several miles deep and they run north and south in Eastern Tibet so that it is almost impenetrable and so within each valley

on top of each mountain tribes became more and more furious and learned how to protect themselves and even central Tibetans from Lhasa when they had to travel through these areas. They travel with great caution and with large convoys of of military because they weren't entirely safe unless there were great numbers of them. What sort of. At this time at the time of the invasion. What sort of army did Tibet have. It was a really sad joke. The previous one a lot of the 13th had tried to model modernize the army in the 1920s. He had a great deal of resistance from the the road the clergy and the aristocracy in law.

They were afraid that it was going to endanger their own powers. He backed off. And so the result was that in 1950 when they most needed an army they they had something like 10000 soldiers stationed in and around Lhasa primarily with muskets and antique weapons mostly and very little training. So in terms of warding off an invasion it was it was a job. And when this happened it's really clear. That the that the Tibetans clearly they objected to the Chinese coming into their country and also knew that this wasn't something that they could cope with all by themselves and did feel that they needed help from the outside and did make appeals

which seem not to have been gotten very far with their western leading nations way. How did when they went for example the dependes went to the United Nations and said look we have a problem here. This is we don't want the Chinese here and we can't fight them off ourselves we need help with how the rest of the world respond. Well it could have been worse timing for the Tibetans when the Chinese and that and because of the geopolitics of 1950 were such that many things were changing very quickly. Only three years before in 1947 India had become an independent nation. They threw out the yoke of the British after many centuries and they were dead set on creating a new pan asian peace movement. This was led by Nehru. He wanted the rest of the world to see this and knew

that it was entirely united and so one of his main goals was to create a unified front with the China News. He became in effect mouth a tongue and charm. And yes a man. That was one of the problems. Another problem was that once the British were kicked out of the subcontinent they sort of said well that's that we don't really have anything to say about it anymore because that's not our problem anymore. The United States was very concerned in 1950 about what was going on and about the Chinese presence and Tibet. They were sending out feelers and because they had no real prior relationship with the Tibetans they were relying on the Britain to tell them you know what they should be doing because they said in that as early as 1951 the Dalai

Lama's older brothers had contacted the CIA and they were very much wanting to help. But the Eisenhower was a very much wanting to be able to help them. The problem was the British said well we're not going to take the lead on this if you want to find out what you should be doing with the dividends you're going to have to talk to Nehru and the Indians because if they inherited the relationship of Tibet that we had a third of the British Empire. And so the United States went to NEVER rule and they said we would like to help in the battens and Nehru said please whatever you do don't do that. That will only cause problems for us.

And even though it went forward out of an appeal to the UN they got tabled because when everyone looked to NATO to describe what Tibet was if it was an independent country or not the end and even though they knew that they were basically an independent country refused to say it. And so the first appeal was shelved and and therefore Mao Tse-Tung took that as evidence of the good the United Nations nor anybody else was going to do anything about whatever he wanted to do and to pad the Early on in the. The Tibetans and the Chinese entered into a treaty an agreement that provided for joint rule by the Tibetans and the Chinese and clearly this was something that the Tibetans didn't really want but felt that they were not in the position that was the proverbial offer that couldn't

be refused. What were the circumstances of that agreement and what exactly did it mean for the people of Tibet. Are you talking about the similar agreement in 1949. Well actually I was thinking about the in the agreement that was entered into in 1051. Oh this is one of the saddest parts of the story after the Chinese invaded into eastern loss over the area. And they didn't quite know what to do. And the general. Who was in charge of the Tibetan military in the eastern Tibet who was an aristocrat from LA was captured by the Chinese Communist indoctrinated for many months. And he started sending letters to Lhasa saying the Chinese don't want to invade Central

about they have no desire to do that they are just here to help and they want to negotiate a treaty. Most of the men in power in Lhasa are all too ready for that to happen because what they most feared was that their comments are going to invade la take away their inherited a state of the Torah and they wanted to protect what they have. The man who who was the traitor the collaborator with the Chinese whose name is not Bo. And he also volunteered to be the head of the negotiations. In the mean time the government was very afraid for the safety of the new Dalai Lama. The present 14th Dalai Lama who at that time was only 16 years old and they moved to the southern border of Tibet. And

hey if the Chinese were trying to capture him for the Dalai Lama was very far away from the negotiations and then mouth a tongue moved the negotiations even further to Beijing. So in fact the Dalai Lama had no real control over what was going on. He gave strict orders that non-polar was not to sign any agreements without the Dalai Lama's approval. And beyond that he'd place a state in the fact that non-poker had been around the communism more than anyone else and that something good would turn out of something did not. Nog and four or five other members of the quote unquote negotiating team. Began Dave giving speeches talking about how historically to Tibet was an independent nation and the leader of the Chinese side of the

negotiations stood up and said we're not interested in what you have to say about Tibet. You were here to sign the treaty that we have already written. The Dalai Lama assumes that the negotiations will go on for months in fact non-polar finished up the entire negotiation within three weeks. He did exactly what the Dalai Lama told him not to do which was to sign the treaty mouth a tongue asinine pope. Why do you have the power to negotiate for the Dalai Lama. My post said yes I do know there were no seals from the Dalai Lama to attach to the treating. But that was no problem the continent simply had new seals made up which not a poser used to make the treaty official. And the first time the Dalai Lama heard that the treaty

had been passed was a radio broadcast from Beijing saying that the bat had signed a treaty allowing China basically to take over their country. We are a little bit past the midpoint of this first or second our focus 580 And just again I'd like to introduce the guest for anyone who might have tuned in we're talking with Michael Dunham. He's an artist a photographer and a writer and has spent most of the last 15 years or so working on projects in Central Asia. He was the artistic director for the murals of two major Buddhist temples one of which is located in India and has authored a book that is about the resistance in Tibet to the invitation of the Chinese in 1950. The title of his book is Buddha's Warriors the story of the CIA backed Tibet and freedom fighters the Chinese invasion and the ultimate fall of Tibet and it's published by torture penguin questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5

5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. There was between the this this this agreement that was signed in 1951 and when the rebellion really started in these places these parts of eastern Tibet that you talk a little bit about and some time back in COM there were several years here that passes before that starts. What in those years or what did the Chinese do. In Tibet how how did they conduct themselves. Well until 1955 the occupation army had strict orders by MT to not interfere with eastern Tibet infrastructure. Again Mao was no fool he understood that the local monasteries were the ancient and essential hubs of all Tibetan society and cannot be easily sidelined and let alone destroyed which was his his main purpose.

One out of every four males and to Bath David was a monk in 1950. The schools were at the monasteries. The printing press of life art music communication social order all of cultures centered on the monasteries. Of course it was inevitable that well peaceful cohabitation between these a devout Tibetan and the atheistic communist would at some point become insupportable. And by 1956 the Communist Party was and nudging the Tibetan people. Think how far they would go another Were they sort of criticizing the monasteries a little bit. They started criticizing the lamas who were in control of the monasteries and that's when the resistance started cropping up. They started suggesting that it would be a good idea for the compas to relinquish their arms.

The very identity of a compo warrior was his weapon. That's started to create a problem. And then the communists started looking at these people and saying we're in it. We have done so much for you and you are so ungrateful to us and this really makes us angry. And so they dropped their smiles and they started having public what they were called Tom struggled suction sessions with the leaders of the Tibetan culture. I mean the lamas they were brought into. A public square and criticize knowing where they criticize at gunpoint. The local Tibetans were forced to criticize them as well. It became uglier and uglier. There are certain to be snipers out in the mountains threatening to shoot the Chinese and it quickly escalated into guerilla warfare.

There was no real organization behind it. It was spontaneous all over. You are going to have. By 1955 to when it became apparent the mouth at times and to obliterate them in the monastic system to attack them for their own purposes to take away their arms and so forth them into labor camps where little or no money to help build more roads so that they can have more control over the Tibetans and finally to humiliate them physically torture their Lamas and banned Buddhism altogether. The Tibetans including the monks. They rose an armed protest and the reaction of the PLO away with the Swift of it was atrocious. Wives daughters and nuns were raped in many cases repeatedly celibate monks who force have intercourse. In one case this is the come from in 1903 report prepared by the International

Commission of Jurists. I believe that's where it came from. In one case a Chinese turn a monster into a horse stable brought in prostitutes and a gunpoint demanded that the monks have sex with them when they refused to the Lamas were publicly crucified. When another monk protests of the Chinese chopped off his arm above the elbow and they laughed at him and said Buddha Hey Buddha will give you your arm back. This member meant that if the deflection the Bowden's were beheaded burned skull the death dragged to death thrown from airplanes. The parents were shot in the head by their own traumatised children other children were dragged away from their homes. Rita located the state run schools. Abbott's war inspired a gunpoint to commit the violent acts that you can imagine and all the time the Communists were saying where's your Buddha now.

Monasteries were blown to bits and all over Tibet monks took off the robes and they picked up guns and that's why the book is called That is war. Yes and that's something I think probably is important. Point to for people understand if they don't already know that nonviolence is a very very important tenant of Buddhist faith. And so for the poor Buddhist monks to go to the point where they would take up arms. This should tell you that this was this is extremely serious. Yeah you know and and it doesn't sit easily with the Western person who has fallen in love with the bad or the Shangri-La image of devout. But the myth of a nonviolent Tibetan people and the myth of a nonviolent takeover of Tibet by the Chinese has been advanced by the communist propaganda machine all of these years David. And it is still very much working for the Chinese propaganda machine

today. That's the reason for this book to help the spell the fantasy. China has spun about their bloody takeover of Tibet. It's the misrepresentation that still thrives and remains largely unchallenged. Six years after the fact their textbooks do not describe this and it isn't. Which is all the more ironic because I don't know if you've seen in the news lately. The Chinese are out in the streets screaming at the Japanese because of their textbooks. Don't tell the real story of the Japanese television and to China in the 1930s the same thing as can be applied to the Chinese and their take on how strong we have some callers here. I think I think some of the conversation will get started here we have a caller in Indiana will go to first and that's line number four right here a toll free line.

Hello. I'm glad you thought you talked about the Japanese situation as the first thing on my mind. Plus the fact that you know you pick up a good high school textbook in this country and you don't find a true story about we did to the Indians in any stretch of the imagination of the room. Nobody stands are unsoiled. That's true. This takes me back to early high school. What you're talking about when I was around and remembers some of the things I guess you know in the newspaper scholar Tribune in particular. But throughout all this you've mentioned very little about our wonderful CIA were worthy and it's and who in the world thought that they could counter you know such a huge army. It also makes me think that we were dealing Dowling there and in some way for all of for other purposes than to say to bad you know very unclear about it. You know as you said the old story is pretty unclear. It is one of these if you do have the information I just

did see I just sort of run and drop some money and run out or what. No no not at all and this. This is one of the most interesting parts of the story. The CIA of course during Eisenhower years they were ready to help anyone who was fighting the communist. It was fighting the good fied and the Tibetans fill that bill perfectly. They were ready as early as 1951 to support if the Dalai Lama wanted to leave to go to support. He and two or three hundred people of his immediate family and entourage if he wanted to come out. In fact they said that they they thought that would be a better idea. In order to expand public awareness of all that's going on unfortunately the Dalai Lama didn't take them up on that offer. They were working very closely with the Dalai Lama's older brothers. Their hands were tied because the.

There were certain things that Eisenhower wouldn't allow them to do without the Dalai Lama's official sanction. However when it became apparent that with or without CIA support there was a rising resistance to the Chinese invasion. It was decided to help in any way they could. These guys and that came in training actually exfiltrate ing. To Bowden and trying them out a top secret camp and Campell Colorado which is very close to present day Val. They eventually air dropped. Hundreds and thousands of tons of arms and ammunition. Back in just about two these Resistance Army groups. They did everything they

possibly could. To help these guys and one of the great stories of the Tibetan task force which was created by a true hero the same as Roger McCarthy and the men who helped him train the Tibetans. Our Still to a man helping That's about them and their own private why I mean I can personally vouch for those I've been to a refugee camp in Nepal where there are destitute Tibetans and I've seen Roger McCarthy personally. She is a refugee schools afloat. They care very much about these people and in the book and I interviewed these CIA guys all of them through the same thing.

They broke the rule they broke their own rules they fell in love with these Tibetan guys they had never been around anybody with that kind of spirit. They didn't have to provide any kind of motivation. These guys already had everything ATOC to do what they needed to do to fight the Chinese. And. They broke the mold for the CIA guys and that it's actually a very touching story. Well we have just about 10 minutes left in this part of focus with our guest Michael Dunham. It is a it is a great story. And there's of course more than we can really do and just in a relatively short conversation so if you're interested in reading more you should look for the book which is titled Buddha's Warriors. It's published by torture penguin We'll see if we get in a couple more. People here that's good line number two for calling Hello. There are some point would you please be sure to extend the narrative and present and discuss the present prospect of combat. The facts of the question of Tibet on the community of nations. The Dalai Lama president

roar the question of the parents and Rama over the present role of the cosh OG and also the bet and I think you know what they could keep us going for a while. Can you try and talk about some of that very briefly. The Dalai Lama is trying to create some sort of means to reopen negotiations with the Chinese in terms of returning to Tibet granting them the idea that Tibet is an autonomy as a region of China. This does not sit well with a lot of the diaspora others. So the caller was talking about they feel like they're being left out of the equation although it's not how happy in the Diaspora world of Tibet. However even though there are people who

don't totally disagree with the Dalai Lama's actions you'll find that they'll still support the Dalai Lama and his final decision do anything they're very much behind him. It's it's a pretty unified group of people. Personally my personal take on the whole situation is it's very bleak indeed. I don't think that the Chinese will. It's likely the Chinese will invite the Donna Lama back I think it's more likely that they're simply waiting for him to die and which point and a new Dalai Lama will have to be selected and the Chinese may very well the side that they've discovered one of their own making. This happened with the puncheon Lama of the Lao Fanta Lama very complicated story. At the present time I can't be terribly optimistic about what's going on.

Well it's also one of the it's clear that a major component of that. Chinese strategy in Tibet has been to move large numbers of ethnic Han Chinese into Tibet so that any fact what they have done is they've made the Tibetans a minority in their own country. Exactly. And between 1950 and the end of the cultural revolution of from of that one point two million Tibetans were killed. But that that's not nearly as damaging in a way as repopulating. With the China news if you are a parent that doesn't parent and you have a child that's getting ready to go to school you have to make a major decision if you send that child to a Tibetan speaking school. That child will have no possibility of getting good jobs later on. Therefore many

people are sending their kids to Chinese speaking schools because they want them to have the best future possible. And there is no way to kill a culture that are quicker more efficiently than to eliminate the language. Well I want to maybe at least one more call in here we have somebody on cell phone so we want to get to them This is Lou. Number three. Hello hi I ever have a question that you'll believe that a person make a comment on the making of a population into a minority by the Chinese actually I guess rapping to the beat of what the British did. Northern Ireland where they basically imported people. Gentry. But the question I really want to ask you is this. I merely embarrassed by health and human I am. From what you're telling me Richard Gere the actor who we only dismissed acted in their political positions. It's kind of my hero in continually

bringing up the plight of that that you take to the public. Ah yeah and you think that he he's helpful in doing that. And moreover what really surprises me is you know I would think that that that you could turn to the Dalai Lama and peaceful resistance and you're telling me Well what I think I've heard is that there is actually a group. Why they wanted to bet and why not. Dalai Lama followers. But our national of the week. And they have their own movement and they basically call the thing and they will coalesce with the Dalai Lama to be at that he can help them earn their their goal of maintaining or at least keeping their and depended on what will happen if that ever happens. As unlikely as that plane to be it likely to be a civil war after that. As it happened a lot of places with it that have been liberated. Rick thank you.

Well I don't think the civil war would happen. These are the guys who who took up arms and fought the China who were fighting for the Dalai Lama. You have to understand that the Dalai Lama is everything in Tibet the Dalai Lama is their national flag. He is their national anthem. He is the reason for being Tibetan. So even if the USA divided don't agree with everything the Dalai Lama has still the the the the patron saint. And the reason for you even having a nationality so the unity is very very strong even though some of the opinions are different. To answer one question. You know that's not the simple answer but and now I've forgotten what else. Well I guess if he was he was also interested in the fact that we have some people some

of them celebrities speaking out wanting it really. Say I wanted to keep the issue up for discussion and maybe perhaps raising the question of whether or not fact that fact and that well helps. Yeah he described Richard Gere as kind of a hero I would I would amend that and say Now he's a real major hero because you do get a little sound bites of what he's saying but behind the scenes what he does is tremendous and without expecting any kind of a little byline in People magazine he's not doing it for that he's he's he's really doing a tremendous amount of work and there are many people like him. Not so many celebrities but many people behind the scenes who are who are working very hard to try to keep the the the problem alive you know when in in. When the rebellion was finally crushed in 1959

the Dalai Lama and other functionaries of his government fled to India and he continued to live there and although the the Indian government hasn't openly supported the idea of independence for Tibet at least they've let the Dalai Lama live there. Recently the there has been a kind of rapprochement between the governments of India and China trying to to to to build better ties does that. Do you think have some potential impact on Tibet. Oh yeah I'm sure that it does. You know I I I can't I can't tell you what those behind closed doors meeting have have included but I can tell you you know you can look at it and it is northern neighbor Nepal and see the present King who has disbanded the government and has been having meetings with the minister of finance from China etc. and is working very closely with him. Two months back the Dalai Lama's office

and Nepal was closed down under duress by the time it so that the Chinese will do anything they can to eliminate the scope of power or influence of the Dalai Lama. The rapprochement as you call it with India and China certainly the Dalai Lama is a card that is being played. Well we're going to have to stop and again there is more to this story so if you're interested in reading more you should look for the book we mentioned Buddha's Warriors by our guest Michael Dunham published by Penguin and Mr. Dunham we want to say thanks very much for talking with us. Thank you David I really appreciate it.