Focus 580; Can Somebody Shout Amen!

In this book Patsy Sims says that she attended almost 50 services conducted by 15 evangelists and also interviewed countless revivalists their families people who work in their operations and also audiences. And she says that after all of that she can say that some of these men of God are not all good but she says she would not venture an opinion as to which are good and which are not. She says rather her purpose in writing the book is to give readers an idea of what it's like to experience an old time revival to explore human needs and feelings and an institution that is so much a part of American and religious heritage and I think the book does succeed in doing that. Patsy Sims is the author of several other books including the Klan and Cleveland Benjamin's dead. She is currently working on a novel set in a Texas prison farm. And she's joining us this morning by a telephone. Hello. Hi. I think as as I said I think the book really does succeed I think if you will and reading this book you you almost managed to put people right there in the

tent. I think you really get a feeling of what it's all about. Oh thank you I'm glad it fixed it for you. When you in the beginning of the book you you talk about you some of your first attempts at finding revivalists finding the kind of people that you were looking for and you. You seem I get the impression that it took you a little while to find what you thought was sort of the genuine article and I'm and I wondering what what qualifies for being a real revivalist and that sort of old time old. Well I think actually what happened was that you know I had a preconceived idea of what the what an old fashioned tent revival was like. And so when I set out going to services they were very different from my preconceived ideal and said No never been to a kind of coffee service or you know in a conflict tent revival. And so what really was happening was that I wasn't finding out. Fashion tent

revival and I didn't realize that and so some of the ones that I that I did go to in the beginning are included. And then I wrote the book it was just a matter that when I set that out it you know I didn't realize it first and then the music was so loud and lively and you know a lot of the phones were different from the ones that that I had heard growing up and you know it was more of a performance and so I kept working for what I thought with more and learn you know what was more in line with my thoughts but found out that I was very wrong about what they really thought. Well you do You mentioned that. That this this kind of thing is part of a very old tradition that goes back really hundreds of years so it has it has must have some of the same elements since in some sense it must be very much the same as it was 200 years ago. And yet also has a lot in it that is modern and contemporary how. How does that blend work what are the what are the modern elements and what are the.

I think that the modern elements are probably you know the introduction of amplifiers and you know electronical electronic music instruments you know that aspect of it and I think you have probably another modern aspect is the the public relations approach the promotion and more of the you know sales pitch and and for phone money. I mean of course they've been there's been a name for money and money for a while but I mean some of the some of the you know why that it's gone I think probably some of the more modern. And. And certainly you know you had the introduction entity of Radio 1 and some of them some of the larger ones. Television which you know they play a part of them and end up broadcasting or you have you know some park service you know with the evangelists you know bringing in the radio audience. But those are some of the

some of the modern introductions I can think of. Yeah. When people will hear us talking about this I'm sure that right away they will start thinking about some of the more celebrated evangelists that have gotten into trouble in the past couple of years people like Jimmy Swaggart and the bakers and perhaps also Oral Roberts but I think one of the things that you do with the book is show that there's there's a sense another end to this scale and that some of the people you talk to I mean they are certainly not wealthy they are certainly not national celebrities and they don't seem to be in it for the money or at least when they do talk about money you the impression you get is that they're what they're trying to do is stay solvent. They're not really trying to get wealthy and it seems to me this is a. This is a different end of the spectrum from those that we probably know a little bit better through the media right.

It is a different one. And you know I think the thing that I was trying to you know obviously I started the book along for the Bakkers ran into problems and swaggered But you know I think a couple of things a number of the people that people have heard about more like the Bakers on board you know a lot of these folks started out intense and you know in a day when they were smaller and less prosperous their services were perhaps more like the services that I have in the book. Well one of the reasons that I didn't include people like that you know even before the problem started out was that I that I felt like you know we hear so much about these people that it would be interesting to find out about some of the other people and you know I think that because just because these people are not as well-known does not mean that they're not equally as interested in the actually act. I think that some of the people who are in the book are far more interesting than the people that we hear about a lot. Well I'd like to to to talk about a few of these people. Why don't we start out talking a little bit

about this. This man who was the first person you talked to h Wayne Simmons. What interested me is that he's he's. And I don't know if you really want to say he's an amateur or a novice but he was just sort of starting out and he seemed to be for a number of years have experiences in and out of religion and really in a very almost painfully emotional way wrestling with whether or not he you should take it up full time and whether or not he had been really called to preach and was one of the one of these people and perhaps there are many people who who didn't go through a kind of formal religious training didn't go to a religious college or an ordained in a in a formal way but you. I sort of took it upon themselves to do it and perhaps served as an apprentice to someone else or just kind of struck out on their own.

Yeah I've been in Pentecostal churches and kind of cough three bibles actually not having some of their seminary training is very very usual I mean that's really more the norm than somebody going to Bible college. And part of that is because the evangelist and acts like that even the Church goers are a biopic or if themselves feel that that god you know God himself calls the people and when God calls somebody that he will prepare them to pretend to the ministry that I really don't feel that it's necessary for the people to go you know have form formal training. I mean there are exceptions and you do have people who do go after they feel that they've been caught. But it's a very very common thing for somebody just to start preaching. But you're right I mean he really was very much a beginner and that's why I did use him in in the beginning of the book because I was trying to show a real variety of people and that they were there really a lot of different kinds of people out

on the fondest trail for the week and I thought was kind of appropriate just you know to start out and introduced the readers to the subject into the book with someone who really was sort of you know virtually starting and I was really nervous. Yeah in the book there's a quote that I've written down here and I guess I have to admit I'm not sure if it was something that you say in the book or something that actually he says or someone here in his group says that the first night of a revival was always the hardest. Well those were he Those were thought of his words I think that perhaps that you know that I paraphrase but you know he did talk about that about how it always was the hardest and you're more nervous and you really hadn't struck up a report with the people and and you know. And I think that's probably true in a lot of fields but you know you're always more nervous in the beginning but I think a lot of time we don't think of that as being true. I was an evangelist. We felt that was and I think you

probably withdraw it not just from self but for other people too. How was his. How was his preaching his presentation it seemed that the reaction of the crowd in this particular case was was maybe polite but not exactly enthusiastic. Yeah well you know he he was very stiff and I think that he was very stiff because he he was nervous and in self-conscious and so you know being feeling that way that he wasn't really doing a good job of preaching and certainly on you know I heard a lot better than Armand's and a lot of the services than his first one thing and maybe even you know all too weak. But don't you know the people were as you said you know being polite with him but were not really responding alike. Right they do a lot of the revivals and and I think like the people really like to respond. And I do it as the time went on I did see him loosening up a little bit. And if he loosened up and became a little surer of herself

you know his preaching improved and response from the audience improved a lot. It be interesting to hear him preach now today. You know it can change how. How did he cope with the image he must have had in him somewhere some small sense of discouragement that it somehow wasn't what he hoped it would be. And you know in fact there's one point where he one night on the second night he's arranging the chairs and let you in on this little trick that early and early on in the revival you spread the chairs out so it looks like there's more people. And then as you get more people you can put the chairs closer together and put more chairs in there. So it's sort of like doing everything you can to make it appear that the crowd is a little bit bigger than it really is. He is I think it was his brother was in there sort of sort of almost as a cheerleader trying to get the crowd going as he was preaching. Somehow that

that must he must have said inside himself somewhere that well you know this isn't quite what I had in mind. How do you how does he deal with that. The feelings of perhaps disappointment. Well I you know I think he meant he more sort of explains the way that you know that this the that this happens and you know it. When it's God you know for it all to come together you know it will happen. You know I think that that he and a lot of these people and a lot of different situations rationalize both to outsiders and to themselves about things and I think that that's the way that that enables them to keep going and not to get so discouraged. But I think that this is to teach him something in that he will learn some kind of a lesson from this that will ultimately make him better. You know.

You know and I you know I think I thought not just with with him and you know in his reaction to the crowd or to their response and that type thing but in healing services and other situations where when somebody obviously was not healed you know rationalizing and giving excuses as to why they they were not healed you know why God could not permit them to be healed. You know one thing and the other thing you know it's sort of a defense of the mechanisms that are you know sort of a survival. Technique or whatever you would want to call it happening this morning in focus 580 We're talking with Patsy Sims author of a recently published book entitled Can somebody shout amen. Inside the tense and tabernacles of American revivalists and it is about revivalism in America contemporary America. She's talking with us this morning and we'll talk with you as well perhaps you have some questions or some thoughts off for

3 3 3 W while here in Champaign Urbana toll free in Illinois 800 1:58 W. while do you think that that the people that you talk to that they are the evangelists that you saw are conscious or perhaps how conscious are they of the fact that they are giving a performance. I think probably some more than others but I think that the other day that most of them are conscious that they are giving a performance they're conscious they might not call it a performance but they know they're conscious of things that they can do and that they need to do to draw the congregation into the service and to get them to you know to participate and to respond. There is one section or one passage in the book where I'm talking to a critic hall from Cleveland Tennessee and we talked about whether he knew what he was going to

preach to preach you know the topic when he came to a service and he was a very frank open man and you know quiet talked quite candidly. And he said no that he didn't that he you know might have a couple of ideas of possible titles. But you know he said he never knew what was going to really fly so to speak with the with the crowd and so he would talk a little bit along one area and then he would go to another and he would be watching the audience for its response and when he felt when he had hit on something that he thought was really getting the audience the audience's attention then that would be the thing that he would pursue and he would really focus on and then go you know. Go all out and preaching for that. Oh well I think that he was more candid in talking about these things but I think that when you're sitting in the services and you see the way these the evangelist conducted services

I think that you have to feel that they are aware to a great extent of what they're doing. You're talking about someone's brother being sort of materially or this is a really very big important part of service of having what they call a front man and this is what women themselves call this person who comes out before the evangelist and leads singing and give testimonies and little talks and really warming up the crowd and getting them into a good response of this position so that when the evangelist does come out that they are really ready to give him a big response. And you know to. To follow and get involved with the sermon and both the Thurman and also you know what the offering and in the chapter on an earnest angle I think that's very very noticeable Andy. That one particular service in Washington where they spent the be his singing group thing and conducted you know song

fellows and whatever for a long period of time really warming up the crowd so that when Anglais finally came on to the stage you could hardly hear with the what the person would think that with announcing him so that he could see that really I think they they were really good communicators. One of the things that is really striking when in the book is the way people talk about their tense. And it's really there is a certain. Really romance some something very romantic about it and people talk about them with such pride in the various times they've had and what is it what is it that you know that makes that that such a special piece of equipment and gives them such a such a special feeling and even the even the people who are just delegated to keep an eye on things during the daytime when nobody's around somehow the fact that they've been designated to be the temp watcher is

some kind of great honor. Well I think you know that you know part of it is that you know they it is sort of a nostalgic or manic part of American religion and it has a long tradition for that. There's a tradition that they can feed themselves of being a part of and I think that because you know it can be so big. Well I mean you can have small ones and you know all five. But because it does stand out I mean it even stands out if it's in an area with with buildings. You know it stands out and I think that there's a lot of pride attached to being able to look at that can't. I think they are right that my path you know that belongs to me or you know it's someone that God gave me that can't you know. You know that's mine and not everybody has it and I think there's a pride in knowing that that you're really sort of special that you know that you have a pet and I think.

Again the account manager on the people who put it up. That they you know they really Reich can't revivals. And again it gives them a lot of pride to be able to feel when you have a tent revival especially if it's going well and it's been successful in a lot of people have come forward during the service and to feel that they had a really big part. And you know making that revival possible you know with their efforts. It's interesting and there's somebody in the in the book and I don't know recall who but it talks about how how the atmosphere in the tent is different than it is in church. And it does seem to be that it gives it sort of an almost gritty earthy quality to the whole thing that it did somehow is more or more down to earth more that it has a certain. I don't know what the word I'm looking for.

I think that the people I think everybody is a lot more relaxed and you're the person you're talking about is our deputy. And he talks about how people you know when they go to church they will get all dressed up and they will be a little bit stiffer than they might be for instance and others you know their circumstances. But when they come to attend you know that they they sort of let their hair down and you know they can if they feel like they can come a little bit dressed a little bit more casually and and they really just sort of let themselves go and say and do things and maybe sing a little bit louder than they would in a church and you know and not be so uptight. And I you know I think that that that's part of it at least that you know they that with this feeling that that was part of it and and he also felt I mean I think that he even he could not exactly put his finger on it but that there there was this excitement. And maybe it's because of the excitement that we attach to tense you know just tense period I mean circus ism

whatever. You know you know he did sort of liken it to a panting you don't you know you don't have the Croppy you don't you don't hear that. But you know I kind of I felt like you when you're walking up to a 10 people or you know congregating and everybody's arriving and there's a lot of excitement that you know you could almost hear a whole lot of people praying. But I think there have their lot of different things that I think you know a lot of it if I feel a thing from a fellow faith with another or have other experiences that we've had. And in that we we were talking a little bit earlier about the first man that you talk about in the book the one who is just kind of starting out. H Wayne Simmons. And you talked with him about he has his past and his childhood and he says at one point that you know he was very troubled as a teenager and says that one time he felt that if God hadn't saved him he'd either be in jail or he would have murdered someone. And several people in his family had been murdered in. He had you know he seemed to

have quite a checkered past. And as I read through the book it seemed that many of these people do him in that way. And I don't know if perhaps they for for that to emphasize the drama of their change maybe their their overselling their evil youth a little bit. But it does seem that many of them do you know come out of this very troubled this very troubled youth a lot of them you know talk about how they drink and how they would get into trouble and were violent and did just about every sin that there was in the book. Is that sort of embroidering on their childhood or do I mean that you know I found it both ways. I you know I found that you know that there certainly are some people who have checkered past and and actually some who continued having questionable behavior I mean such as the late A Allen who had a drinking problem really all his life and died of throat throw things at the liver. And was arrested for drunken driving several times. But I certainly did find that there were people

who who did emphasize their pants and made it sound orphaned children it was because I think that that sort of made them big in the eyes of their followers that they had had such a bad past and they had overcome it and you know what I what I what I'm going to in the book and I another rider. But product will fund it. Talk about a picture Tim Phelps of the particle fun. You repent it and you have became a man of God so that I at think there is a Francis there's one passage in the book right talk about our Debbie Shabaka and he was talking about when he was saved. You know what a big center he was and when I started pushing him on well what had you been doing you know had you been he say he had hung out with the gang and I said are you talking about a gang like you know street gang.

And Pennsylvania are in Philadelphia you know some of the places that we've heard streaking. No no no he just was talking about the big young man that he ran around with and that they were always getting in trouble and I said well you know were you arrested. No no I was never arrested and I mean it went on that that you know you really got the feeling that he was no more than a mischievous little you know overall our young man. But you know when he would tell the story when you you know before you got around to pushing him on it you would have thought that he had been really this very very horrible person so that you know that there definitely is this tendency to exaggerate how bad and how fun for you were. This morning in focus We're talking with Patsy Sims about her book can somebody shot a man a book about revivalists in America. This is focused 580 money was David engined. We're talking this morning with author Patsy

Sims about a book that she's written a Can somebody shout a minute is about revivalists in America it's published by St. Martin's Press. She spent almost six years traveling around the country going to revival meetings and talking with the evangelist talking with their followers and the people that help them in their operation talking with people who attend these and put together the book that I really think it gives you an idea about something about what the people are like and what it is that motivates them and what it is like to go to something close to an old fashioned revival. If you'd like to talk with us of course that's possible let's invite it encouraged if you have a comments or questions. Three three three eight hundred two two two WY. You know the thing about about revivals is that they kind of come and go. They they come to town and they set up for a while and then they the tent goes down and they go someplace

else. And I wonder whether you think that the people who go to the revivals. I mean are they going to them kind of like they would go to a movie or to the county fair is it an evening's entertainment or is it is it more than that. Do the effects stay with the people long after the tent is packed up and gone. Well I think so. Yeah I think they go for both reasons. And you equate that very thing to some people obviously go out of curiosity or you know entertainment but I think probably the bulk of the people you know go for far religious fulfill fulfillment but they the entertainment part of it is certainly you know a big part of it also and a drawing card for a lot of people in many ways the revival provides a form of entertainment that is acceptable to these people I mean the people who go to kind of costal

fundamentalist revivals are you know very strict in their religion and an awful lot of things that are considered sinful and that you know that they shouldn't do. And so you know in life that that is so strict. A revival becomes a you know a farm. Of acceptable and on full entertainment you have you know a very lively good music at that. It's not like you know rock n roll for instance that you know has lyrics that would be questionable to them you know they don't believe in dancing but at a revival they can dance the spirit you know in and around they can tap their foot. You know it is there that they it it's something that they can really enjoy and not feel bad are ashamed or you know like that they've committed them. So yeah it is. You know the entertainment part is a very real part of it and it's you know it's something

that really all the way back to the great revival along the front pier people came to the revival partly because of the entertainment you know today. We have a caller here perhaps we'll have some others when we find out what's on the mind of this person here on our first line let me give you our phone number again. It's 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free in Illinois 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. Here we have a caller on the line and Martin. I have a couple. Questions are part of it to discuss about one month from your discretion. Well you know I was thinking of like like for example in the cafeteria there are clothing that the monks and nuns used to wear for centuries these things must have been new in their time but they were kind of preserved and then may be thinking like the ambitious people. They have certainly the press in living

there trying to preserve something that was new in its time but then they didn't want to lose it or something in it and I just was wondering if you had the impression that these customs which were perhaps. In the past I don't know hundred years ago and now to try to just know that whatever it was. Oh you mean the revival of them. Oh I think you know I think that probably you know in some places that it is that it is a matter of wanting to maintain and preserve this you know form of worship that goes back a long way. You know I think that that is you know something that some of them probably do consider. I think they also do it just because they simply enjoy that kind of service. But I did run into at least one situation comes to mind here in Washington D.C. where a very you know urban congregation decided one summer just out of sentimentality to borrow

somebody's tent and hold a three week revival and they all enjoyed it so much that they church decided to buy a tent and you know every summer they have a revival within that what really was started out as a you know sentimental thing in a way to preserve it. I would say yeah that that that does enter into it and. What do you know whether this was like the early American frontier when it began and really didn't have a circus tent. Yeah I know ya did. I mean really the the you know we had revivals before that but really what the service is you know the services that now evolved from were more the services along the front here and course they didn't they didn't have to and then you know there were the days that brush over but really they are the prototype for this type of outdoor service really came from those days that I am a long frontier observer mislike recalls a sociologist or I am a journalist I worked for newspapers for many many

years though I've been a writer of books for a little bit more than 10 years. So I I really I'm not a sociologist. I like to write about people and to study people but I you know I'm by training a journalist. So it's new now it's yeah yeah. Faith often is I guess you'd say well clearly. 7. in my personal reading of the Acts of the path of which you will panic give it three of the early start of Christianity. I just don't get the impression that these kind of things were carried on are they. I read about your prophet tried to tell people what they believed in one of their beliefs to clue from and then usually to other people. If they do said the wrong thing in my abdomen and I I just stop looking over that X of your powerful that there were more of it teaching. Going around trying to get

people interested in their actions rather than can revive them with that was do we. If this revival started with in the church rather than growing up into the world. Yeah it is a revival can attract all sorts of people but generally they have a tendency to attract more people who are already members of the church are you know involved in religion for there to it it's more of you know reviving there for you know it you know. Well it makes sense. And then the only fair point ahead with that in doing the research I noticed like in the Middle Ages there were certain ones like where a call from Fort a Baptist and they were very sensible in. In light of their teachings and then they got killed off by their enemies and then other ones that took over were more I don't know what were these wild and they take over cities and start

violent fighting back against their enemies and so on in and just stare the whole nature of their original start and I was just thinking. Maybe wonder where these questions come from you know they were originally there. Going where the these are bibles where and whether to somebody's invention is a little private. Well you know I'm I'm revivals I you know go back I'm sure that they go back even before this country is you know I think they probably are things that I mean I'm not a storytime off in left field but I would say before what we know of it the great revival of The Great Awakening in own country that you know I am sure that they were the people. You know perhaps decided to have a fight revival type. All right you know I

don't know why. I don't recall but you know Christ or the Apostle said let's have a revival but you know I think that's the problem with the Bible. But we have a revival but that just sort of running out of religious practice. Well Frank appreciate it OK well thank you for the call. We'll be here for about another 15 minutes talking with journalist Patsy Sims about her book and somebody shot a minute if you have questions or thoughts. Three three three W. while 800 1:58 wy Hello I'd like to have you talk a little bit about the one that perhaps the oddest chapter in here or at least it seems seems that way perhaps it's the one that's the most out of the mainstream the most closed community and that is your visit with the snake handlers. You went to a church and perhaps people have heard about this where they have this tradition of handling poisonous snakes and also of drinking poison sort of as I guess it says a test of

faith. And you'd seemed as if you were going to this place and it seemed like you maybe weren't quite sure where you were going and how you would be received and were genuine. You seem genuinely afraid. What. What were you feeling at that point. Well I you know I was very nervous I think I probably was apprehensive about how they were going to react to me at you know I don't mean that I felt I was going they were going to do anything physically to me but I was you know they were they had surgery. I knew that they were very withdrawn people. They don't mix a lot in the outside world. And you know obviously it was a very different religious practice and I was really very nervous about how they were going to greet me I think the other thing that I was nervous about was that while I was there somebody would. But. Pick up a snake. Be bitten and die. You know the other thing was that in this particular church two people had died from drinking strick a few years earlier. And you know I was nervous that you

know I guess I was more apprehensive about that even than the snake handling you know I frankly just didn't want to see anybody die and that was you know when I was really most nervous about. So you didn't in the time that you were visiting with these people you never did see them do snake handling or no I did say that. I did yeah i did i didn't they. I was there for a week and I had I don't know I had always been in an impression when you talk about snake handlers that they always handle snakes at their services which they don't I mean it depends on whether they have them or not whether they feel like God is telling them to handle snakes. That particular week most of the week they did not have thanks not to the last two nights that they had them but they did indeed have have snakes that we can and they very people pick them up and and handle them the first night that I was there I looked up on the pulpit and there was I do are with clear liquid which I took to be

strict which wasn't strict not. And fortunately nobody drank any of it during a week that I was there but. But they did handle it and these people literally interpret from tappers and Mark would say that those who believe in God will be given the power to pick up deadly snakes and drink harmful poisonous substance is and not be harmed in other parts of the earth. But they literally interpret that and what they feel is not so much that it's a test of their faith that you get variations on what happy people interpret it a lot most of the people I think interpret it more that that because they are believers in God and they believe that God can do that that God is really giving them to power the power to do this so that when they pick up the snake they're really demonstrating to onlookers what God can do what he has power over.

And now I'm sure that it was as you say in this particular church some time before two men had drunk strychnine and had died in that. I think various people that you talked to talked about the fact that they knew someone who had been bitten by a snake or perhaps they had been in a service where someone had been bitten. Well and what happens when you know when someone drinks the strychnine and dies. How do they how do they understand that. Well Bill this is a I think a next look an excellent example of what I was talking about a while ago about your justification of rash rationalization. And you know they will rationalize and say I did not wait for God to tell me to pick up the snake you know he was not ready for me to pick it up. Therefore I got you know bitten are sometimes they will say Oh God lets it happen every now and then just to to convince onlookers and skeptics that the snakes are indeed deadly and that they can kill and you know on and on every day they give various reasons and rationalize

why you know this is allowed to happen and why this happened. Then I think that the rational life rational and is is really very important to them and that to these people not just the snake handlers. Their religion is so central to their lives and their their beliefs their whole lives are wrapped around this religion it's not just the Sunday morning you know worship thing. And I think that if they were not able to believe I mean if if that because somebody died from a snakebite and they they didn't believe it anymore it was really in a very central part of their life you know to be left with a real void in their lives I think that you know part of this rationalization is to be able to preserve that belief. Is anybody know exactly how this tradition got started. Word got started. Well it started about that right after the turn of the century

in Tennessee over near Chattanooga and you know in the mountainous area of guiding George Hensley was reading the Bible and really felt that he wanted to to see if you know God really wanted people to handle things that he really meant this literally. And so he went out on a nearby mountain found if I can handle it wasn't it. So he felt that that was a sign from God that you know God wanted his people to take a hike. And he went back to his community in his church and was able to convince a lot of the other people that they should you know take up snakes. And you know to show the power of God and that he really is the one who started it and don't you know want to round up other areas and I did. You know I encourage people to take up that that is really where it began and and today it is mostly done and mountainous areas. And it is a

legal and every state except West Virginia. But if the authorities sort of ignore it if the people in their churches in Kentucky kind of charge Alabama Well you know I can dampen but maybe a little bit less. I'm not going to tell you where they are. Atatürk are you in. You have written another book I mentioned at the beginning of the program you you have written another book about the Ku Klux Klan. And in in this book and can somebody shout a min. You you talk about the fact that as you were looking at the people around you that were attending these revivals that you saw you saw some similarity to those people that you had seen at Klan rallies although that that you say the people were there for very different kinds of reasons. I wonder you know after having that experience of

doing the research and writing the two books that that somehow. You know those those two experiencers are the you know all that. The two sides of the same coin so to speak. Well I think you know I think that you know I think in the end the people the common thing that I thought was in terms of education and economic status but because for the most people most part the people who came to the revival like the people who can most often join the Klan and go to Klan rallies. You know people with not a great deal of education not much money they tend to have fairly hard. They are alive and you know I think that they're there is in both groups. You know looking in a longing for something. And you know to feel important.

Which the religion and going to the revival you know gets it the people just as if it's going to to the to the Klan rally the thing that that you know I think seeing the similarities and backgrounds in it and their station in life. I think the reason that it struck me was that because these revivals are very integrated and there is there's a lot of outpouring of interracial love in these revivals and I felt that it was it was really fascinating to me to see people who had come so much from the same stations of life. And you know I felt that that many of these people were related to people who had I had met at Klan rallies. And yet you had you know one group who went the route of hate and. Do you find that moment they felt that they need in their lives while these other people were

drawn to a you know really the as you say the other side of the coin. A very loving form of religion that you know it's very demonstrative although most of the revivals that I went to were integrated to some extent you know some more than others. And the preacher was the evangelist would always be saying it turn around and tell the person next to you I LOVE YOU ARE YOU'RE BEAUTIFUL that type thing. And they these people treading around blacks and whites hugging one another and you know it was really quite striking to see people who you know had to be related. Background. Yeah. And how much more positive. You were one of the people that you talk about in the book is he is an evangelist named Ernest Angell who is really you know we talked quite a bit at the beginning about. About Wayne Simmons who was just a very small time quite a guy just

starting out in earnest James and he is really big time and in seems in a way to be kind of an unsavory character at least you know some. Last year I had a chance to interview James Randi who has written a book about faith healers you know he is a he's a magician and investigator of claims of the paranormal and he is an angel he is one of the guys that are in Randy's book that he really Randi says is really an out and out fraud and says that he is is one of these people that is making a living off of the misfortune of others and causing a lot of misery and I wonder if you know if you I think in the book you do maintain a fair degree of journalistic objectivity and you say in the beginning that it's really not your. Not your desire to want to say some are good and some are bad. But I wonder you know what your what your sort of overall feeling about these people and what they do

is about you know whether they are whether they're doing a wee whether they're doing good or then we're not doing good. Well you know I I think that that varies I think that that some of the people I felt were very genuinely motivated and that they they really were trying to help. And you know that people did go away from their services and feeling better. I think in terms of Ang Lee I think perhaps the people I met he was the person who put me off the most and I really felt that his emphasis on money and the way that he went about getting that money. I found it really very tasteful and I would have to say that I did feel that he was on preying on. You know the people from the arc and I would say hey I'm just milking these people for money. And you knew that these people had

worked very very hard for them that money and that a good many of them were going to have to do without something because of the money that they were giving to him and his history. You know after I found him very very tasteful distasteful in that regard. So I think there are some people who who do take advantage of people and I find it very questionable. You know what they're doing tactics they do to raise money. One of the things that I heard or saw done. It was the hundred fold lesson where any parent would say God told me that. Say for instance 25 people tonight will pledge to give you know one hundred dollars to this ministry and all those who get up tonight and give $100 are a down payment of a hundred dollars or promise whatever fun cards you know pledging that that in 30 days 90 days whatever timeframe will get that money back 100 fold. And that's with towed

with with a labrat ceremony in-story thing you know you would see these people who were maybe domestic janitors you know people who work very very hard who didn't have much money and you would see their eyes brightening up you know lighting up you know that they were going to get all this money. And I felt that was really taken advantage of. I thought that was one of you know one of the things that was just appalling. On the other hand you know I had other people like you know Paul who I mentioned earlier and this man slept in his car he would not run a hotel motel room when he was on the road because he felt that with money they could use for other things. And I went to another of his services and he would always take up the offering. The very last thing you would talk about a four five hour service so that a lot of people you know some people would have already left by that time and he was very lowkey fairly low key. Offering. And you know I heard him say

to people you know if they were pledging to give so much money to this ministry he would often say Now listen if when it comes time to send in the second check or whatever if you need that to buy a pair of shoes or you know whatever you know for God's sake care of the envelope you know you don't need of anything and left on your back. So you know I offer those as is you know the you know to exploring that that you know you have your whole thing answering really in any way between any point did you feel. Do you feel like the spirit was seizing you and you wanted to somehow get involved did you ever feel that much draw in the end. No I didn't you know I the and I you know a lot of people want to know that I think that you know I I I went about this like you know as a journalist and you know perhaps that's why I didn't you know feel moved to go

forward or whatever but no I didn't. Well that will we'll have to leave it it's it's a very interesting book and I'm I'm pleased you could spend some time talking with us about it. All right I'm pleased that you had me on the show. The book that we have been talking about is entitled Can somebody shout a man inside the tents and tabernacles of American revivalists and the author is Patsy Sims. The book is published by St. Martin's Press. We'll take a break now as we do this time of day and have market update and some news headlines when we continue with focus 580. We'll be talking about helping victims of violent crimes. Our guest will be Melinda cook from the state's attorney's office here in Champaign County and Dr. Marlene young she is executive director of the National Organization for Victim Assistance.