Focus 580; What Matters: How a Small Group of Pioneers is Teaching Social Responsibility to Big Business

Will be talking in this hour of the program with Jeffrey Hollander. He is the CEO of the nation's leading company that's in the business of manufacturing distributing environmentally safe household products. And he is also in much involved in an effort that we're starting to see more and more among business people toward making social responsibility a core kind of business concept. He argues for that in a book that he has coauthored that's just out now. The title of the book is What Matters Most how a small group of pioneers is teaching social responsibility to big business and why big business is listening. Basic Books is the publisher on the book it's out now. If you want to take a look at it and in the book it makes the argument he certainly does that social responsibility really needs to become part of the way that every company does business but he really goes further than that he makes this argument that Im making that a part of your day to day business operations. Not only is a good thing for the community and for the

world but its also improves financial performance. So in this part of focus 580 will talk a little bit about why doing good is good for business. With Jeffrey Hollander and if you have questions or comments certainly they are welcome as always. We just asked people to be brief and we asked that so that we can keep the program moving along and get as many people in. Will but of course anybody like join conversation is welcome to do that here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have a toll free line. It's good anywhere you can hear us. So it would be a long distance call for you. Use that number and that is eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5 0 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 that's the number for people who are here in Champaign Urbana where we are and toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Mr. Hollander Hello. How are you. I'm fine thanks and yourself. I'm doing all right.

Maybe just to begin I would ask you to talk a little bit about your own company the company that you started seventh generation short seventh generation is a 16 year old company based in Burlington Vermont. It is the leading brand of natural household products ranging from paper products made from recycled unbleached fiber laundry products. Dish products all types of cleaning materials as well as baby diapers and trash bags. And our focus is as a company is to create products that have a minimal impact on the environment provide consumers with healthier products that they can use in their home and operate our business internally as well as extremely with the values that I consider in keeping with being a responsible business. Yeah that is I understand it of the of the people who are

interested in making the distributing the kind of products that you do while seventh generation it may be the biggest company that does this. It's still and I don't mean anything bad by this but you know still when you compare seventh generation to something like Procter and Gamble or Kimberly-Clark it's a lot smaller company. Well we might say that that's an understatement. No we aren't. We are definitely a small company although the business is growing at about 25 percent a year over the past five years and it is now distributed in most of the lordship grocery chains like Albertson's Kroger and Safeway. And there is no question that a seventh generation is a small player but in many ways our impact is not just on the number of customers that buy products from us. It's on conducting our business in a way that we hope will raise the bar

for all companies not just in our category but in other categories. And I'm sure that you would you would want to make the argument that doing business the way you do with the kind of corporate philosophy that you have is not a hindrance to growth that it is possible to for your company I'm sure you feel it's possible for your company continue to grow and indeed get to be a big company and still do business the way that you are the way that you want to do business. I think given what's happening in the world today in the business climate being responsible it has become and if not has become is rapidly becoming an imperative for any company of any size to succeed in the world. Thankfully and. In many cases almost invisibly to the public has gone through some fundamental changes over the past couple of years that really make responsibility a growing imperative and certainly we know that there are a number

of very large companies that are thinking about this that are concerned about how they're regarded by the public and in these respects. Now I don't know how much you know you because you've looked at this you can tell me the difference between you know a company like Nike for example that's come under a great deal of criticism. How how well they are how much of what they're doing is purely public relations and how much of what they're doing actually does address the issues. And in what ways that they're really changing the way they do it I don't mean to say that to pick on Nike because there are other big companies that are. Try to do the same thing. Well Nike is a great example. First we need to step back a little bit and recognize that all companies including seventh generation are somewhere within a spectrum of you know sure there's a few totally terrible companies. I'm not sure that there's any perfectly companies but most businesses fall somewhere in the spectrum of good to bad. And the question is Where are they in that spectrum. First of all we need

transparency in visibility so that we can make that determination so that companies as a first activity need to publish what is called a corporate social responsibility report so that we have the information we need to have to help decide how good they're doing. And if we take Nike you know Nike is a great example I think of a company that has taken many many very positive initiatives while they have made a number of very large and fundamental mistakes. Now when I look at them over time I think that they are making work of an effort to move in the right direction than most companies are. Despite the mistakes they've made. And interestingly Nike has been sent so traumatized by getting caught doing the wrong thing that many of their initiatives they

are even even afraid to talk about today the fact that they're probably the nation's leading purchaser of organic cotton. The fact that they were the first company to eliminate PVC from their product line the fact that they have done tremendous work while they have had labor problems in their supply chain they've done much great work to eliminate toxic chemicals from their supply chain. But not to go on too long but these unfortunately are complicated questions. And really what we want as consumers is an up or down answer should I buy Nike sneakers should I drink Starbucks coffee. And and while we can come to those conclusions. We have to remember that that all of these companies are somewhere in that spectrum. You know maybe I should introduce again our guests for this part of focus 580 We're talking with Jeffrey Hollander He's the president and the CEO of seventh generation it is the largest U.S. brand of green household products He's also the co-author of a book that looks

at corporate social responsibility and how it has more and more corporations the large businesses are thinking about that. The title of his book is what matters most. And it is out now in the bookstore if you want lookouts published by Basic Books. Questions also are welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5. We do have a caller here and I want to go ahead and bring him into the conversation. Aurora on our toll free line line number four. Hello again. Hi I'm very interested in this as an environmentalist and a birder who appreciates that there are obviously says that are green so that our birds have a habitat. Yes I wondered if you could tell me the name of products that I might be aware of in store was I have to admit I haven't kept

up and I realize I didn't realize about Nike. Could you tell me what products or what companies. Sure. Well. Let's say I can't give you a list of everything you should buy but let me say two things. First of all we need to recognize the important role that we as consumers have in impacting business. Every time we spend a dollar we are casting a vote for a particular company whose products we're buying and we're supporting the way they operate and their values and the impact they have on the environment. And so those decisions as consumers. Well you might not think they matter they batter tremendously. So we need to be very intentional about the products we purchase. And rather than give us a laundry list of who to buy from. There's a couple of. Resources that are helpful. There is a Web site called ideals

work. One word dot com and you feel work. Ideals work. One word dot com. OK. And if you want to buy sneakers or you want to go to a hotel you can type in the issues that matter to you like the environment and they will tell you which companies have the best record in that particular area whether the rich the environment whether it's human rights whether it's how they treat minorities. And that's one of a bunch of different references that will help you and everyone listening make better decisions about what companies they want to support. Is there anything on the butt. Now I am a great reader of products I buy something I read the label and I much recognize where what country that. Product comes from et cetera et cetera. Is there anything on a product if it has packaging that will inform me as to it

I don't know what terms you know generally speaking the information that's on the packaging. Wow helpful and valuable that usually doesn't give you enough information to make a decision about whether to support the company that's making that product. And well if you buy shrimp who it might tell you the ingredients doesn't really tell you anything about the shampoo manufacture. In terms of something like that I think a Vega is probably my favorite company to support when it comes to personality. Brooks avi eat a Veda. I really can't. It's you know I was going to go out of the house because I have things I have to do but when I heard that you were going to be on I thought I have to listen to this program. Well as you said it's imperative. And.

I feel very much to inform my family beginning with my family about these things. And I can't it's difficult for me to think that there isn't greed in all this. I just think it's a wonderful happening. I'm very happy to hear about it. Well I myself over the my years of bird watching have seen areas go out where I'd camp or to any more that I don't see birds anymore that I used to see. I mean I'm using that as a measure of just what all of us in our own way because spurious it's the negative impacts to the environment or even our communities. And I think that we need to not become

cynical about how bad things are getting in the world and really turn. Our attention to what we can do to make a positive care that's why I decided not to go out and to listen to the program. And I think that the opportunities for us to make a positive difference you know of course seventh generation is in the business of selling products but I really think that we can have a big impact as consumers if we are investors and we have money invested in different companies we need to look very carefully at where that money is invested. And even as employees wherever we work are we trying to facilitate that company to become more responsible. And what is that talk about investment I won't invest in a company I want to invest in Coca-Cola I think it's doing a terrible thing to our young children out there live there and I want to invest in cigarettes. I won't put my money in there. So I have made

that distinction. But I think you all of us take that kind of action and remain committed to making a difference. I would be amazed what a positive impact we can have on the world. So I encourage all of you. Just think about why we're we want to make a difference whether it's the car that we drive whether it's the bank we put our money in. Everything we do almost all day long gives us an opportunity to make a positive difference. I want to tell you one of the things I am working on a bird count. As I said I'm a bird watcher and we're doing a year count. Starting spring of 2004 to spring of 2005 on Kendall County Illinois. To see how many birds are in that county. And let that be a waterhole mock or a a

meta for telling people in few future generations the birds that we're seeing in that county. So that's why I say I'm I'm most interested in what you have to say. Great was great and I thank you. All right. Well I thank you for the call. Let me just ask you. One question and I want to. We have somebody else I want to get on to I guess. I hear what the caller has to say and I wonder just how representative she is of the American consumer generally and I expect that when when manufacturers and people who make and sell things think about their customers they they think obviously people want a quality product but they're also very concerned with price. And that may be their bottom line and I wonder how many how many manufacturers think well what people want is they want the best price that they can get you know the best product at the cheapest price. And

that however how many consumers are saying now wait a minute. Yeah sure I want the best product at the at the best price but I am concerned about some other things that I'm concerned about environmental impact of the way you make your products and I'm concerned about. Conditions for the the people wages and conditions for the people who make the products you know how. How many American consumers do you think those kinds of issues are getting to be as important as price. Somebody might even say that it's more important that the answer is not enough. While there is a growing in vocal minority who want to take a broad range of issues into account when they go to purchase products generally it is a minority and. That is one of the challenges that we face. Luckily there are a lot of drivers beyond just consumers that are pushing business to move in a more responsible direction. But it is.

Will and I guess we have to also be fair I mean VERY is you know I think that the success of Wal-Mart is a testament to how many people want to buy things at the lowest price they can possibly buy and not care about the other implications. But at the same time you know if you are in a lower middle income bracket it's tough to be in a position to spend extra money to buy products that embody values that are important to you. And what we need to do is ensure that everybody who is making anything lives up to certain standards and there's only so much that we can do is consumers. Some of that has to be done from a legislative perspective. We need to not let people get away with making products that have a terribly adverse impact on the environment as a way of making them cheaply. And we find that unfortunately if we look at automobiles you know you can go

purchase an automobile that gets terrible fuel efficiency and that poor fuel efficiency creates air pollution that increases Allergy Asthma and all kinds of adverse health effects. And you was a consumer and the automobile manufacturer doesn't pay the price of that adverse effect. We as a society do. And that's a fundamental structural problem that we face. Because we both as companies and as individuals don't often do the responsibility for the impacts of our purchasing decisions. We are getting close to our midpoint here have a couple of other callers maybe just real quick I'll reintroduce the guest for this part of focus 580. Jeffrey Hollander He's president and CEO of seventh generation company is based in Vermont. It is the largest U.S. brand of green household products and they make things like detergent and household cleaners and bathroom tissue and paper plates and things like that

and if you're interested in finding out more and you do have Internet access they have a Web site which is w w w dot seventh generation dot com. So you can check that out he is also the co-author of a book that talks about corporate social responsibility and the number of companies that are starting to think more and more about. That the title of that book is what matters most in the subtitle is How a small group of pioneers is teaching social responsibility to big business and why big business is listening. It's published by Basic Books and we have a couple of other people here ready to go would like to talk with us. Then I think the next caller is in champagne and online number one. Well yes. I wondered if you could tell us that there are a variation of the name of your company. Sure. From the Iroquois Indians and the complete saying is in our every deliberation we should consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven

generations. And that in many ways embodies the mission and vision of what we do. We try to look at our decisions widely over a long period of time to try to make sure that we are making responsible decisions and taking into account all the consequences of our actions. Because there's an economic syndrome that companies that are family companies tend to last only three generations. They then split up and become not only now asking off about every seven generations wouldn't try something like john their company that's been around for a long time so I was wondering if you were riding on that sort of. Well we're still in our first generation as a company. And I think that the deer are

not any challenges for businesses today to balance their social environmental considerations with the economic realities in the marketplace and I think that there's some great models of companies out there that have done that certainly given the structure of the public markets in seven generation was for five years a public company in 1909. We bought all the stock back to become a private company. I think if there's lots of. Given challenges in the public marketplace to come to bear on public opposition thanks very much. My pleasure. Thank you we have another caller here in the Chicago area on our line for a little. Hello. Yes I just had a few comments and I have a question. I buy a seventh generation project for all my household use. Usually at a health food store and

I very much agree with your comments about consumers. The fact is that I as a consumers have simply made the decision that I am going to spend considerably more than say my neighbor is on. You know and buyer mentally safe products for myself and I and the world. And I think that you know that's something that all consumers have to do whether they're you know relatively well-to-do or not. Now I at one point I recall getting a catalog that the seventh generation company had a catalog. Yes. And I still get it now but it's now harmony or is it guys. I can't keep track of this. Several changes so that I will make a point that in you know if I choose to buy organic clothing I know that I'm spending

considerably more and sometimes not the Farrelly considerably more because you know I'm not buying high fashion. But I was curious about the catalog. Sure. And yes we did have a mail order catalog which we sold to guy in 1995 and it was renamed harmony and we focused our business on selling as a wholesaler to companies like diadem as well as Whole Foods and wild oats and all kinds of grocery stores. So that is the focus of our business today. And let me talk just a little bit about the price issue because Syria is a real challenge in Vire Metal Products costing more and we have worked hard to bring our prices down. They certainly are probably 25 to 50 percent lower than they were 10 years ago. I would agree because I've been doing this long. Yes. And we want our prices wherever possible to be comparable to to dish. Will products so that we take away both the challenge for lower

income people and we make the transition easier. But you're right today in some cases the products do cost more money and it does require that commitment. One of the places that we've seen more in work consumers purchasing seventh generation is for health reasons particularly with the cleaning products there are so many perfumes and fragrances and chemicals in cleaning products that aggravate the asthma condition or allergenic condition of consumers. It's one of the places that we find lots of people switching to our products simply for those individuals who have those types of health challenges. I do as we could see more of their products and mainstream grocery. Well it's happening in certain parts of the company. This morning I'm sitting here in Denver and in the city of Denver every grocery store in the city sells seven generation products. And we are we're moving in that direction

across the rest of the country. Great product. Thank you so much for your support. Yeah well thank you let's go on to talk with somebody else. This next caller is in Kankakee on line number two. Oh yes sir. Could you comment on the work and thinking of William McDonnell the oil. Or you see a charter of cradle of a cradle. Sure how that might have thrown their idea. Thank you. Yes. Bill McDonough It is certainly what I would consider a visionary in thinking about the products as well as buildings and architecture and trying to understand how we can design things in a more sustainable fashion not just so that they have a minimal negative impact on the environment so that they have perhaps even a positive impact. And he has written a whole number of books

which I recommend and recently has had tremendous success in designing green buildings buildings that are not only better for the environment but buildings that are healthier for the inhabitants who work or live in them. And again all the people who are listening you have questions you give us a call three three three W-L toll free 800 1:58 WFLA. I'm sure that well all companies are interested in good will. As far as consumers are concerned you know they want what people think well of them. They're also in business to make money. Can you make an argument that not only can you buy by including corporate social responsibility as as part of the way that you do business that not only will you enhance as a company you will answer image but this will be reflected in the bottom line that it won't end up costing you more to do this.

The notion that being responsible costs extra money which has been around for generations is no longer true today whether we want to look at research done by Morgan Stanley research done by the Harvard Business School or hundreds of other pieces of research done over the past couple of years the evidence says that the most responsible companies make more money. The Morgan Stanley research that was done looking at over 800 global companies over the past three years concluded that the most responsible companies actually made twenty four percent more money than the least responsible companies. And the Harvard Business School research done by Lynn sharp pain in a book called value shift. But what By the way all of this information is on the website of the book. What matters most of all one word dot is. The Harvard research that was done it looked at over a

hundred academic studies concluded that in 66 percent of all of the studies that were done responsible businesses out performed less responsible companies. And in only four studies was there a negative correlation. That does not give you a guarantee that if you're responsible you're going to make more money. But the big picture today is that those companies that are responsible for the environment take better care of their workers. Companies that are good members of their community that buy build and market products in a responsible way do perform better financially. And is I guess I was sort of touched on this earlier but is there some sort of scale issue here that says OK if you're running a relatively small company you have a company the size of a generation you can do that. But if you're General Motors you can't well all of the research that I'm referring to is actually about large publicly

held companies. And we can look at I mean the companies in the Morgan Stanley research are large. Multinational companies and there is lots of evidence. Whether we want to look at companies like Hewlett-Packard Dell Computer companies like Patagonia companies like Veda companies like Timberland there are no shortage of middle and large sized companies. I mean Toyota is a great example. Toyota is the world's leading marketer an innovator of fuel efficient and environmentally responsible cars and they have become the number two automaker in the world. And I think it will be long before they overtake General Motors. So there are lots of examples of companies who are practicing this on a large scale. Again that doesn't mean these companies are perfect and they're doing everything right because that's never the case. But the leaders and the

innovators in this area are also the companies that are performing best financially with me if we have kind of talk. Doctor round it whether it may be an census is backtracking a little bit but I wonder how when we use a phrase like corporate social responsibility how many people will know it it will have some sense of what that means and what really it is that we're talking about. Well I think we can approach it from from two different angles. One is probably a sense that people are familiar with in terms of being responsible in terms of your impact on the environment taking good care in treating your workers responsibly taking care of the health and safety at the plants that you operate and being a good community member in the communities that you do business. All of those attributes don't have to be made visible and transparent to the public through

publishing something called a corporate social responsibility report. And today thousands of companies publish these reports. And to me that is a leading indicator that a company is taking its responsibility seriously. Most large companies if they pay. Publish a report of this type we'll post it on their website. And to my mind that report is a first step in being a responsible company because it is a statement about what they're doing what they're doing right what they're doing wrong and what they're committed to improving and fixing in the future. I'm sure that there are cases where as a marketing tool companies are dressing themselves in green. But it maybe not doesn't go any deeper than that. How common is that it seems to me that when you started out thinking about this you expected to find a lot of that and that maybe you were a little surprised that it wasn't quite

as common as as you had thought. Well that is often called the green washing an activity that a company will create some positive program. Sense to distract the public's attention away from things they're doing that are not right. And unfortunately we see that quite a bit. I often get questions people say well look at Philip Morris the cigarette company they give away so much money you know. Does that make them a good company Well of course it doesn't make them a good company. The types of things that companies do they talk about the money they give away. They have something called cause related marketing where they'll pick a nonprofit organization they're going to support and they promote their relationship to that nonprofit. Now by itself those activities are not bad. But we need to see the whole picture. We need to understand the full range of those activities and the full

impact that that company has on the planet. And that's just it. Because I mean Wal-Mart's now running a series of ads talking about individual things that they are doing. Excuse me that are good and responsible and that's nice. And that's well and that's good. But if they need to address as a company the broader set of challenges what happens when they pay so many people wages that are so low that their employees can't survive and have to depend upon food stamps and going to the emergency room because they don't have health care. We need to know the whole picture when it comes to a company not just a single attribute. We have about 15 minutes left in this part of focus 580. Again our guest is Jeffrey Hollander He's the CEO of seventh generation it is the America's largest brand of green household products. He is also the co-author of a book that looks at corporate social responsibility and how many businesses are now

starting to think more and more about that and incorporate that into their business practices. The title of the book is what matters most and it is published by Basic Books and we have some other callers who will go next to Urbana and line number one. Hello when are we going to get the point that our government becomes socially responsible. Certainly in terms of you know military you know some of the sites that were used in this insight you know are used I mean those are being contaminated you know. And so what they're going to say you know well you know it it probably starts with us ensuring that we elect public officials who care about these issues. But I would say that we face many many challenges today from a government and regulatory perspective. And if you contrast what's happening in America to what is happening in some parts of

Europe. You find in Europe that there is a much more collaborative focus between business and government on dealing with things like the environment. And in the United States I'm afraid that we often are moving in the wrong direction rather than in the right direction. And I think the only way to change that is for us as citizens and us as voters to hold our elected and governmental officials accountable. It doesn't help that we live in a nation we're only half the people vote and where many of us are disengaged from the political process. High paid people to get involved to communicate to their politicians to make their concerns known and to make sure that we vote in the elections that are coming up. You know that. That's enough then.

Well I think Mr. Holder you actually do make the argument in the book that one might think about the about the business community or at least the segments of the business community as being an alternative kind of force for accomplishing some of these things particularly when it comes to the environment. And also maybe. Labor issues sure that that government is not is not doing you're sort of suggesting to people that well here's and here's another sort of a fifth column here and that is the business where we might expect that from them but that that's that's a possibility. That's absolutely true I mean in many cases you can argue that business is the biggest global influence on the planet. And when you have a company like Intel that builds plants all over the world to the highest guidelines and highest environmental rules and highest health and safety rules of any country that they do business with anywhere in the

world they are setting a goal and a benchmark for themselves. It is way over what local governments are setting for them. And we're finding more and more companies holding themselves to higher standards than our government would hold them to. And that is a very positive influence and we need to make sure that we support those companies in their work. I think with our earlier caller from Aurora would like to get in with one more question so when we go ahead. Do that at your toll free line. And I I wanted to address the subject of companies that have planned obsolescence. I purchased a coffee maker and he I asked the man I went to the store that only sold those products. B and E products I'm not mentioning the company. If you want me to I will. And I said but it will only last a year.

I thought I don't want it then. Like I said will only go in the dump. And I had a daughter in law that I had a coffee maker that went out in a year and I said take it back to the company. Let them know that it isn't working and she didn't want to do it. Well I didn't make her but I just suggested because we have to let the companies know that we don't want a product and overload our Gobert systems. That's absolutely true I mean from an environmental perspective. One of the best things we can do use buy well-made products that last a long time and then can be safely recycled or disposed off when we buy products for cheap that don't last long. Often we do ourselves a disservice we can go into a store and buy something that is half the prices. Something else. And when it only lasts a year you think about the cost of having to replace that every year. You're actually spending a lot more money.

I think Consumer Reports generally does a pretty good job of valuating the durability and how long products last. It's a good guide to make sure that we are buying quality. They don't tell you anything about the environmental impacts or the health and safety of the product but they do a pretty good pretty good job in telling you how long the product will last and whether or not it's a good value. Well the the other thing that's happening I bought a new refrigerator from a company that I had had a washing machine 35 years now that I had this washing machine and it's still working. So I bought the refrigerator thinking that the name brand was a very good name brand. But I've had it two years and slowly everything is breaking on it. Well again we need to be careful and unfortunately sometimes do some research before we buy. And then as you suggest we need to be very vocal to companies to let them know we let too many

businesses get away with things that we shouldn't let them. If things break if they don't work well if the service is poor we need to be very very vocal and let those companies know it's not OK. You won't do business with them anymore and you will let all your friends know that you don't think they should buy either. Yeah. Well again I appreciate the comment of the caller we have a 10 minutes left here and we don't want to get some of the folks in 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have a toll free line that's good anywhere that you can hear us now that he's 800 to 2 2 9. Four five five I think we have another caller here ready to go in Urbana. And that's line number one. Hello. Yeah hi. I just want to make one quick comment about the previous caller was talking about you know buying a very high quality product a few years back and having a very good experience with it and then decided that well OK this product is very good. And so the company

that manufactured this product will will they're a brand name now. And so the consumer you know trust that corporation to make good products and so buys their product. Assuming that you know that it'll be just as good as those products in the past. You know my experience is that manufacturers are getting very very creative about you know actually figuring out how to make products that will break down. You know after a certain amount of time that is that is just usually just slightly longer than the warranty period. And I think they actually spend money you know doing this and there's a term that they used in the design of products it's called Planned obsolescence. And it's just you know it's it's a very I think it's very common these days and a lot of companies go to go to a lot of effort to try to

make products that you know are very appealing. And they rely on their brand name. But you know ultimately I guess the old the old saying you know buyer beware. Every single consumer is responsible for finding out whether the manufacturers really are making stuff that that's good still. And in general you should never assume it. So anyway I'd like to just hang up and listen. OK. Fair comment do you want to. Comment on that. No I think I think that is is unfortunately true in many cases. And again you know I think that the we have to go to a certain extent to the perhaps the heart of the matter which is what kind of values and what kind of companies are we dealing with. And there are companies who as part of their core

corporate philosophy are committed to making the best products they can make that last the longest period of time possible. One of those that I always think of is Patagonia who makes clothing that cost a little bit more money. But part of their mission is to make things that will last you a lifetime and will never go out of style. I think companies like Timberland have the same philosophy to make products well make them safely make them an environmentally responsible way and make quality products that last. And I think that we need to try to understand where we can what. Kind of company we're doing business with is that company committed to providing you with the best quality they possibly can or not. And of course business is are all across the spectrum. But I but for all of the ones that are

not doing the right thing and making products with Planned obsolescence that don't last very long. There are a lot of good companies that don't operate in that way. One of the things you know among the things that people can take into consideration if they're trying to make a decision about whether going to do business with a particular company is that company's labor practices. And in fact if you go for example if you go to that website that you mentioned earlier ideals work dot com and you decide you're going to look for a particular kind of product and then they'll offer you a number of things they'll ask are which of these things are you concerned about. Are you concerned about environmental impact but then they'll also ask questions about the the the policies that the company has as far as its human capital is concerned. And I guess I think that's interesting and I wonder you know what makes you want to ask the question why should the consumer be concerned. For example if they're looking for toilet paper and they're thinking about buying from your company they may be concerned about. The environmental impact of the manufacturing process why should they care how you

treat your workers. Well you know for a variety of reasons and I mean we can just look at one single factor. If you were paying your employees or your workers a minimum wage in many cases that is not going to provide them with enough income to live adequately. What happens when people don't make enough money. They need to rely on food stamps. They need to if they don't have health insurance go to the emergency room. And we as a society and up supplementing the cost for their income. When you have employees that are using food stamps rather than make enough money from their company we as a public through our taxes are paying for those food stamps. We're paying for many of those visits to the emergency room. And well we think that you know

the implications of those minimum wages don't reach us. They do as a society. So you can look at it from an egg. Perspective. And there's been some wonderful books written recently. One is called the working poor. It describes the challenges of people who want to be in the workforce but for whom being in the workforce making the minimum wage particularly if they've got families doesn't provide them with enough income to survive. And of course you can look at it which I do from a humanitarian perspective. And if you have a workforce aside from not being paid well but is not being taken care of properly from the health and safety perspective so that there are higher accidents. The air in the plant is unsafe to breathe. You know I can't feel good about buying a product that has had an adverse effect on the workers who made that product.

We have some other calls here what try to get at least one more or ban a line one you know. Wondering what your guest would have let our government rule it would help companies become more thoughtful responsible thing and think that it can make it easier for shareholders to nominate board of directors. Currently I believe it takes a quarter of a million dollars to even put it up unless. Sure. Well I think that proposal that you're referring to which allows shareholders to nominate board members is a wonderful example of legislation that empowers shareholders to have more of an impact on the companies they're invested in. And I'm a great supporter of that. It was a recent change to the S.E.C. rules in the past year where mutual funds had to disclose how they voted on proxy matters so that if you are invested in a mutual fund you can actually see how they're voting those shares and what things they're supporting and not

supporting from an environmental perspective. Unfortunately we have lots in lots of legislation that encourages consumers and businesses to do the wrong thing. The auto mileage standards because. Of the increasing purchase of trucks and SUV. We're making no progress in having automobiles and trucks that are more fuel efficient in the United States. There's absolutely no reason why those fuel efficiency standards shouldn't be rising given the oil crisis we're facing. Giving the air pollution challenges we're facing we have to insist that automobiles and trucks get better all on a mileage standard. And unfortunately the list of legislative initiatives that we would benefit from is almost endless. But certainly we need to pay attention to those initiatives and support them where we can. We're going to have to stop because we're here at the end of the time. I want to say for people who are listening if you're interested in the book we've talked about you can head out to the bookstore and look for it. What matters most.

If you have internet access there is a website for the book. You can find out more about it and about our guest Jeffrey Hollander. That's w w w dot. What matters most because be icy so you can do that. Jeffrey Hollander is President CEO of seventh generation it's the country's biggest brand of green household products and Mr. holler thank you very much for talking with my pleasure happy to be here.