Focus 580; Shattered Dreams: The Story of Charlotte Fedders

All in order in the house he was subject to long depressions and over those years there were explosions of physical violence. Finally and 1983 Charlotte asked for a divorce and when that divorce went to court there was a reporter from The Wall Street Journal watching the proceedings. The story that he eventually wrote about the fetters led to John Fedders resignation from the FCC and made Charlotte Fedders probably one of the nation's best known victims of domestic violence and since that time she has been talking about it a lot. She wrote the book which was published last year by Harper in a row and she continued to try to increase people's awareness of domestic violence. And she is here to talk with us this morning. She talked last night here in Champaign Urbana and is going on tonight and will be speaking over in Springfield. So we're pleased to have her here. Welcome to the program. Thank you. It's your book is difficult to read. It's difficult to read about what you went through. It is it's been.

Now since you were divorced two years actually I was just divorced officially in February of this year when the book was written. I was still in the midst of many years of legal hassles to get divorced but I've been divorced for about eight months now and separated maybe more like separate five years since July of 83 and it is a difficult for you to talk about this. Still not really. It's more therapeutic. I think more therapeutic. Years ago. But it's no it's not too hard because it's behind me and I. I know I'm helping people. It's an important issue and when you've lived through it and survived it's not as hard to talk about as you might think it would be. Growing up you know you grew up in a very traditional Catholic family had what what you might say was a relatively sheltered upbringing and were well cared for.

Your father was a was a very strong man would it was he a domineering man. He was domineering by his nature but also he was the only man in the house. I had four sisters and things I explained when I speak I do not of my friends even have any brothers my grandfathers been around didn't have any. I had a few uncles but it's a whole lot of them he was the total center of our life he is a doctor it is his offices even in our homes I mean our whole life revolved around my father. And in addition to that he was a fairly strong individual who had not had the easiest life becoming a doctor and so therefore he had learned to push themselves around a little bit to get his way and we tried to keep him happy he had a temper but he never hurt us me never physically abused us or really emotionally abused us. But he did have a form of control at that house so therefore I was used to the man being the one in control.

No one with the power deluded that is somehow you know what life was like growing up for you did that somehow. Help to form your impression of what married life was supposed to be and what you as a wife were supposed to be and how that relationship between husband and wife was supposed to go. Yeah definitely and my mother was very traditional and again she did everything for my father and it's really all I wanted to do either. You know also I didn't want to be a professional I went and became a nurse. But in the 60s and 70s you were their nurse or teacher until you wait it you know until you got married had children stayed home and took you know took care of the the family and so that it's what I saw and it's really what I wanted. When you tell me when you met your husband you were for my husband you were you had not not dated a lot of guys you went to a Catholic girls school and you were a girl you went to a Catholic college. All girls all right at college

and this was when you were. I guess it was it was still part of your training when you're working in a hospital right. And I happen to have he was he was still in law school he was going to a Catholic rock out of the university. So he was a good good Catholic boy. What were your impressions when you first met. Well he was very tall he's 6 foot 10 I'm 5 foot 9 and I really never felt like I was particularly attractive I always felt like I was a really big and so the first thing of course that attracted me to him was the fact he was so much taller than I was and he was very handsome and he extremely charming streamlined charming. And frankly I was just lucky. I mean I felt lucky that he even talked to me in the first time he ever asked me out it was I don't my gosh is too good to be true and then when he asked me out a second time I mean I was just absolutely had a crush you know slash in love from absolutely the first time he ever talked to me. I felt just very lucky and it was the thing that kind of because I had dated a lot I thought it was a fluke. And so therefore when I got into the marriage and things weren't really great I immediately thought it

was my fault that this wonderful person was acting this way. And I also felt that I would be able to live without him and no one else would want me. Certainly no one of that caliber would go Taisha Marx would want me. It you know you get reading the story of your marriage and your relationship with with John and the kind of person he was. It would be easy to assume that he was a monster. But if that's the you know maybe the curious thing sometimes about people like that is that that they may be monsters sometimes but they're not monsters all the time. And it's sounds as if they were you know maybe some aspects of your relationship with him that were good at least good enough to to try and carry you through the parts that weren't good. Oh definitely. They were the times that that kept me in the marriage. The times when he wasn't abusive and wasn't wonderful were OK. But there are some incredibly great times some of the experts refer to it as honeymoon periods. A

lot of them did come in the I'm sorry phase after some kind of explosion be it a physical explosion or at times emotional explosion verbal explosion. He would be very sorry. One of my friends who when they were listening to me talk hated him. I mean there is nothing redeeming about this man they hated him. But then they'd see him and I want friends especially so I bumped into him today and he says when you see him he's he's really not bad. That's what another thing that's so confusing for many of the victims because the outside world never sees him in the bad and usually these men. I've heard other people speak. And one of the common threads that they all you know mention talking about these men in the personality is that they're so charming. And you know it sets up a real confusing state for victims because nobody else sees them the way the way he was. And he had the shower some of the kindness and

charm on you at times. Before the first time that there was physical abuse there may have been some times it was there may have been sometimes there were some times when he was an extremely difficult man to live with but had no heed. He was never physical. What happened that that first time that he hit you when what was your what was your reaction to this day and that was 20 some years ago I'm still totally baffled by that time because we were discussing and I was disagreeing with him I was not screaming him out of fact I'll tell you right now if I was screaming My mindset was such at that point I would have felt that I deserved some kind of you know attack on him from him. We were just talking about I was disagreeing as I say I guess strongly sticking to my point I mean I just wouldn't budge. And and just his right hand just came to the side of my face and hit me writes back on the ear which broke my ear drum one blow broke my ear drum and I have never

been so surprised at anything in my life. It would be you know almost walking past someone on the street and just you know having them turn around and hit you you know for no reason at all. And so I was quite surprised. Very very confused because I really felt I had done nothing. You know I I guess I don't explain it well because I was just so surprised and. I just didn't know where it come from. And in years to come after that I sometimes I could pick out exactly what had made a man of course and I would try never to do that again. But this particular one to this day I don't know what did it. So I was very very surprised. You basically in a state of shock. You I think that after that happened you told your your dad about it. Not immediately but I did tell my father I sought medical care I was too embarrassed to tell the doctor. I was sure that if I told him anything my Lord what a bad person you are that your husband would

have to slap you. That may sound really ignorant to people listening. But I'm very it's a very common feeling that that battered women have I mean I just felt this enormous guilt and I did tell my father somewhere I don't know exactly what time it was and the next couple months and of course it was believe him you know and I mean just plain leave him but as I said before and I very you know I went into the marriage I grew up with with not the greatest self esteem. No one really knows why but but I didn't have it. And and here I had finally married this wonderful person and I was sure that I. I don't know I just didn't I just didn't couldn't comprehend living without a man at that point very early into the relationship living without him. So I couldn't just pick up and leave and shortly thereafter I became pregnant. As as the time went along where there were a lot of other people who who said the same thing that your father said that you want to leave this guy or did you or did you not tell very many people

what was going on. From until nine hundred seventy three would be bout six they have seven years and the marriage really didn't tell too many people because I was moving around a lot. We moved from you know New York City to Westchester County from us just a county about a year and a half later moved to Texas and from Texas we moved to to Washington D.C. where we stayed so once I got to Washington and really had a group of friends that I you know knew well after a couple of years that I started telling people but basically the first close to you know eight years I would periodically mention it to some family member but I didn't have many friends because I was isolated and. Not necessarily by him a lot of men do isolate their women in other forms but in the beginning it was just it was just the way things were that I was somewhat isolated because we weren't anyplace long enough to really get you know friends that I would confide in So. So I had a long

history in the marriage of not telling people except like I said every now and then mentioning to my family eventually to his family his family's theory was well you just better get some help to learn to live with them. You know I was reaching out to them and to. See if they could initiate some change in him. I did go to several psychiatrists I told you know a doctor about pregnancy beating. So I told some people but not really close friends and of course a psychiatrist and a doctor the one doctor said to leave him the psychiatrist tried to change me. And so there were times that John would yell at me and say that I was the crazy one to go look in the mirror and you know I stop and think about I was the one who was going to the psychiatrist I was aware of the diagnosis so therefore I accepted the fact that I was a sick one very easily. That's really the that that that. That really sticks in my mind that you know you were trying to live with this man who was subject to these explosions of violence but also was subject to really prolonged periods of depression

and you were trying to get through to him and figure out what was going on with him. And here to for him at that period to be to say to you Well you know what our problem is go look in the mirror and you'll see it. It must have been really devastating. It was and I'll jump way up to divorce proceedings which I think is not even in the book because a lot has taken place in the past year. Just about a year ago right now we had to go into court for what I thought was the final divorce. I've actually had to appeal it but. He convinced a judge in Montgomery County Maryland that he had had depressions and that I didn't emotionally support him during the depressions and therefore the judge ruled that I was equally to blame for the breakup of the marriage equally and impartially equally. And you know getting in. Tell you because some people may have heard about it that there was a book rolling that he because of this because of marital property being defied everything he was given a portion of the book proceeds and which eventually was overturned but so like I said you know

he was very convincing that I had supported him and it was very frustrating because all these years I was trying to support him and I was trying to find out what was the matter. And I was being told by him to go look in the mirror there was that problem. Well it also in probably other women have confronted the same circumstance as as you went along trying to you went to various counselors you talk with a lot of people you said a little bit earlier that you were that the first time that he hit you you were afraid to tell the doctor what happened because you were afraid the doctor would say well what did you want me to. The problem is that all along you seem to be getting messages from the people that you were talking to that somehow you were the problem that you had to be a different person. You had to feel better about yourself. You had to learn how to live with him better not to trigger these things off and that there was. Was there any was there anybody or very many people who said look this guy is bad news. There's

nothing that you you know you can't improve yourself. You just should get out of this situation. Well my my parents and friends it without really saying that they felt there should be some separation. But the professionals never believe parents are friends you know you have to believe the professionals no professional said that you know they all like a said try to change me and let me figuring that if my reaction to him changed and surely he would change so no not till 1982 when I finally met a psychologist that that said this is wrong and you're not the one that's that's that's bad. You know he's driving you crazy but you're not the one who's been had. We're talking this morning with the Charlotte fetters about her experiences as an abused wife. She wrote about it in her book Shattered Dreams published in 1987 by Harper and Row and she was in the area to do some speaking and was good enough to come over and spend some time talking with us both about her experiences and about domestic violence in a more general sense. We were here open to questions as always so if you'd like to talk with Charlotte you can do that by a picking up the

telephone 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free in Illinois. 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. I don't I don't want this question to come out sounding like blaming the victim because it might but be for the first time there was physical violence and you know thinking a back about your the period before you got married and the years of your marriage leading up to that one where there are there are signs that. Looking back now you could say well those were those were those were key used to his character that might have led you to suspect that he was the kind of person he was. There were keys to suspect a to leave me. Now again looking back on it that he was going to be controlling and want things his own way but nothing nothing I've searched nothing to indicate that he if he didn't get is no way he would

become physically violent. Actually the emotional control ended up being worse but that was there very early I think that when we were doing interviews for the book friends remembered me coming down you know dressed up and something you know for a date and he'd say I don't like that blouse allied with me and rushed right back upstairs to change it. There was also a period that he didn't speak to me. He kissed me good night one night and said I'll see you tomorrow morning or call you tomorrow. And this was before you got or you were married and eight weeks later he showed up again. I mean he called and there was no explanation for the for the withdrawal nothing. I had to study which I would have understood but that you know that's what his excuse was. And I said and there were signs of the of the emotional. But none of the physical he never pushed he never he never threatened me with a fist. You know maybe just wasn't there. And there had been none in his family or my family therefore i also there was something else. I had never seen it

because I had never seen it. I just figured this was something again that was really wrong with me because why would someone do this you know you spank your children I don't anymore but that was the only physical violence in quotation marks I've ever seen was ever heard of his people spanking their children because the children were bad off I was being spanked or disciplined physically. Therefore I was bad but there is something else that I'd like you to talk about. It's it's in it's in so much detail in the book it's it would be difficult to really impress upon people the extent of it but just to give people an idea of the way the household ran. John was. What I think obsessed is a fair where he admits that he was obsessed with with with order and everything being in a certain way and everything always being the way he wanted it again the thing that sticks out in my mind again is the thing about how he like to see the marks from the vacuum cleaner and the carpet all going the same way.

Yeah he didn't want any little footprints that I eventually had so that six little footprints you know what you had to make sure the kids took off their shoes before they came in sight. Yeah one of the things my little toddlers learned I had six children one one died a year and a half I mean that up having six little children and so they learned to you know walk and put on their shoes they learned to take them off I mean we did not wear shoes in our home one of the worst beatings I ever got was because I challenged him and stomp my feet in front of him and said I want to wear shoes on my own home if I want to. We were you know the House had to be very clean there was you know the kids could mess up the basement. But you know periodically we'd have to go down to give it such a cleaning that it wasn't worth messing it up. You know he was very he very proudly announced on the stand that he had an anal personality. I mean he's very very pleased with that point. So it wasn't really a very relaxed household that's putting it mildly and then in addition to the way the household had to be run I had certain duties people would really call like slavish type duties and you know I had to help him get dressed in the morning

and I mean I had to lay out his clothes I had to help tie his tie if he were Botha I had hook up suspenders I had to you know carry his coat put his wallet in his coat wash his glasses. You know put the hanky in his his pocket of his coat I remember several times he would take it out and I would feel you know why he failed because he had to reinsert the hanky in his pocket. You know I it was just that type of thing. And it's funny when you really say it it almost sounds insignificant but on a daily basis when you could not you couldn't not do it. When I finally stopped doing it 1982 I was selfish. And he just was beside himself that I was no longer participating in this type of activity and I mean I would go in and I would be nursing a baby and I would have to put the baby down. I would have to stop nursing to hook up his suspenders or go through this routine so it's like once you

started something once I started something for him. Like I wasn't allowed to stop it. I had to pack Foreman I mean literally we couldn't take phone calls after you know after he came home in the evening. It was it was really it was it was a hard hard life. It was a very hard thing to live with and you never knew what was going to trigger him. You know it's a myth that only guys who abuse alcohol or drugs you know come home drunk then you know to stay away from them you know what she was that easy. It isn't those guys by the way will also come home and and still batter their women whether or not they're they're higher on you know or drunk. So there was no way of protecting him. We're talking about. Some of the experiences of our guests Charlotte Fedders And again they're detailed in her book it was published last year shattered dreams. What I have. Oh I think I have yes yes now in paper that is it just came out that you normally I don't plug my book but it did just come out paperback It is the same same publisher

Now Dell down. It's I mean literally this week. Yeah. OK. We're talking this morning with Charlotte fetters about her experiences as a victim of domestic violence. And you can read about them in her book Shattered Dreams which has just been published in paperback now published by Dell. Well you do have some callers here and I want to keep them waiting any longer will go right to the phones and first to the line number one. Tell me yes I don't know you. He was and we were together for just about 17 years I was actually married 21 1/2. We were together for 17. Why did I get it. Did you go. That's always a hard question. I should have done it the first time and it's what I tell people you know what do you what should you do that you have to make a change in the cycle immediately you have to remember my my the way I felt about myself. I think I said it earlier I really didn't feel that any other man would want me I didn't feel capable I very very early in the

relationship he had to be beaten down that I did not feel capable of taking care of myself. It's a you know it's kind of one step builds on the other it's not just the physical violence it's the emotional control over you or jerking around if you want to call it that that that also companies this and it very quickly makes you do that to the point that you really aren't thinking clearly I often said I became a non-person. I didn't. It's like the it's a learned help helplessness type of thing it's like the mouse that comes out every time it comes out the corner he shocked will eventually he does come out of the corner so you know I wasn't a very strong rational person who could say hey take the kids and run I was very beaten down in the motion only paralyzed. Well there are other ways other. That's what I say don't you. Well every now and then there are a couple episodes of

Basically I've learned how marital rape. But not nothing. Nothing worse if you want to call you know than that. But you say it was is the physical but the emotional again was worse for me. I mean when you're called every crazy name in the book and you're you know there's never a day that you that you look right or that and if you do that then you're you know where you going type thing why'd you get fixed up and when it's a constant constant monitoring of your every breath. It's very emotionally demoralizing. Well you know 17 years old. Well there are people who feel that in that that's a myth. Women do not enjoy this. They they are locked in and isolated and trapped again mostly because of the emotional control. That's just that's just plain hogwash that anyone would enjoy this type of behavior. But it's

it's very hard to explain. I I've been out of it for this many you know five years now and I still have a hard time explaining it actually same training films that that show the emotional abuse that just recently that's so emotionally over took me I could barely speak so it's very subtle. Also you don't know what's happening then by the time and you know by the time it has happened by the time you realize that you just are too stuck in it it takes a very strong person to break it. And in my case I did break the cycle because of. The fact that I felt I deserve better I just finally realized that it was you know really affecting my children especially my oldest child at that point is almost four years older than the other group. I want to start affecting my children then I that then I had to say it was enough but I really didn't even I'll be honest with you I didn't get out because I disagree. I felt I deserved better I got out because I knew my children and deserved to be treated like this.

How was he with kids as he was with you. Well he was wonderful with the children till I started thinking for themselves so sometime around the age of six or seven he started getting into trouble so she with my oldest one because Luke would have a certain way of looking at things as we know children do they don't always think the way we would like them to think and and he he would not accept that. And so he eventually became very very hard on my oldest son who's now 19 and who has spent five years in and out of therapy getting himself together and feeling good about himself. Luke felt like nothing. And so yes he did do it to my children and he was the next to we're coming up they're like 9 and 10 so they were beginning to challenge him also. And so in effect he treated them the same way he treated me. And we have these long silences. HE DID NOT JUST NOT SPEAK TO ME. He would walk past his five children and not say a word. There I mean my oldest son broke his hand once the hand was broken in a cast. He'll be out

of gas before you said how did you break your hand so yes he treated the children the same way. OK well it's just with someone else here line number two the next person. Hello hello. First I'd like to congratulate the author on her disclosures I think that's really important and she's doing a good job. And I heard something a little bit earlier that struck my awareness that you don't want to have it right. I was curious if you were suspicious of the cause. No absolutely not. It was meningitis and there was you know it was clear cut infection. So I as a matter of fact. And that was a time that I I really hope that things change. It was certainly something that is difficult to difficult in significant word to explain you know what it's like to bury a child and I really had felt that it changed my way of thinking and I hoped it would change Johns but it didn't. But now there was he was not he was not a beater of his children he was more of the emotional jerking around. He would very openly

spank in quotation marks children with a large fraternity paddle. I mean that was his way of discipline and I know I realize now that that really is a form of violence physical violence but I wouldn't do that to someone walking. Right. Well especially He's a 6 foot 10 felon here. You know he he actually to this day you know he sees two of my children in the one of them the 7 year old is again beginning to challenge him and he'll spank him with just his hand but he'll say I didn't I didn't hurt him. You know I mean he just never realized his power strength than you know when your shop to just swap by a guy who's that big He's like weighs 230 240. You're hurt period and you're Yeah you could go down and you know if someone you who worked for you didn't do a good job you could whip out the fraternity paddle and slap of a get away with it so you know it. It is a form of physical violence but I I never suspected that there was said this was clear cut meningitis and the death of John Michael. The rest of your children thought there would be for their emotional difficulties.

You know I have such a wide range of children. The three older ones have seen have had some form of. Their AP. But then I drop down to a you know a 10 year old who only saw one episode when he was three and a 7 year old whose father left when he was 2 so they haven't had anything yet I think they might have to eventually just to. You know to accept because they will eventually know and actually they do know a little bit about what their father did. They will eventually have it explained to them and they will need some form of therapy but yes they've all had a very easy to you know I have a family therapist that you know when they have any problems anything they want to talk about they just go make an appointment Dr. Donoghue I mean it's it's like going to to the to the dentist that's how it's really kind of a great way to be that you're that we're that comfortable with with seeking you know emotional guides. Absolutely. Good on all of you. Graduate THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. Let's go on here to someone else we have a caller on our toll free

line. Hello hello. This problem have to exist in my family. Erica America can offer two ways both your father in this case has this behavior toward George's wife and then they have a good effort. Since he's been little has been very hurt and not a word. Very physical and crows. I go through these violent periods periodic breaks you know what I mean. With God any rational now and just suddenly I seemed to sort of imitated his creator Now my question is is this theological or and or a psychological problem with a man that is doing it. Well I think you can actually be both. I won't say either I think you can be both. And the people who have dealt with me really feel that my former husband had some you know physiological problem. But he

also had the other problem you can't I don't think you can really separate them in regards to the child it sounds like yes there may be some you know physiological reason why he is acting that way. But statistics hold that I think it's somewhere between 70 and 90 It depends on who's to disobey your rating. Nine is 70 90 percent of boys who grow up to be batterers did see it in their family so it is a type of learned behavior. And. You know so I personally feel it's very difficult to separate the two but the bottom line is if they see it as a child many many men will grow up to be batters and or be very controlling people in their relationships with their family. Can you or do you have any knowledge or very good particular behavior American station reversable Is there any form of treatment that can be a literary career.

There's gravy. There is the matter fact any of the you know the shelter the abuse persons organizations would be able to you know to guide you in that direction. However it is very difficult it's a very difficult pattern of behavior to break. And there are still differing views on how you should handle an abusive man. But yes I mean to answer your question it can be broken but it is one of it is very very difficult pattern to break. I personally feel that a man has to really want to break it. There are some people who say that even if a man is court ordered to go to counseling that many times that will least break the cycle of violence that may not necessarily break there. The need to control especially that particular family but it might you know break the cycle of physical violence but it's very difficult. Thank you very very much.

All right thank you again. Our telephone number is 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free in Illinois eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5 We're talking with Charlotte Fedders about her experiences with domestic violence and she's written about them in the book Shattered Dreams first published in 87 and it's now out in paperback. If you'd like to talk with her again share your thoughts with us three three three wy L.L. 800 1:58 W while I was in your former husband's childhood with was there abuse in his family now there was no alcohol there was no physical abuse. There was one controlling person in his family and which is his mother. I like being a mother I would want everything blamed on me when my children grow up so I don't I can't blame it all on her he has blamed it on her and his and his he has chosen psychoanalysis as a form of therapy I believe across the board almost every expert in Mr. Byles will tell you that is the wrong treatment because he has been able to shift the blame from himself to his mother and then from his mother to

me. But she was a very controlling person. But certainly not enough to to create this this type of behavior pattern and there was no physical abuse as far as I can see. Far as I can look back nothing that he ever saw. And so therefore he is the minority but that you know it but it goes to prove that you do not have to see it. Yes if you do say it you used to grow up to be that way but as a man but if you don't see it you could still fall into that pattern. You were when you were growing up with a very very strong Catholic. As it is we talked about before you went to Catholic schools all Catholic girl schools and your that was very strong in your family and was very important to you. Did you feel did you find it in any point support from the church or or did you. Did you try to to seek some help there.

Yes I did I. Eventually you know very humbly crawled to my pastor figuring since John was basically it I would look back at the you know feel almost a much stronger Catholic and at least in the you know the outside to the outside world stronger Catholic and I was bored more neurotic Catholic I think. Let's be honest. And I felt that surely he'd listen to a priest so I did. You know tell the pastor wants and and this man listen to me talk to John and he came back in and said the job just needed some space and I should go home and love him so that's what I got from the Catholic Church and that was as late as I think 1978 something like that it was not just you know it was a way back at the beginning I venture we did find a priest much later that you know said the sky is a little knotty and this is not you know the proper behavior. But basically I didn't get a whole lot of support from the church I didn't really seek it but you know when the door when you finally seek the help from someone and the door is kind of slammed in your face and shifted you know again the blame is kind of shifted back to you you know go back and you get to the point where you just stop.

Yeah talking about yeah. We have another caller here on our toll free line again. We'll go there. Hello. There are two there are two aspects I don't know whether you have. I think I told them you had it in the program. But one of them is the traditional method of making her work. Which probably occurred before before you actually got married but with a man I can remember when we used to put women on a pedestal. I grew up in the oldest tradition of working husband and full time mother but we were socialised back in those days. Place women on a pedestal and it was very rare in my experience. And I used to deliver newspapers so I wouldn't read the newspapers every morning the phone would deliver and I do very very rarely ever a domestic violence case because in those days young young men were socialized to see

women as special and he ended it with strong cultural that's a. Brutal what if anything any boy would do. What exercise violence would a girl or any man who would have been kind of violent toward a woman. An on and off edition when you think about it. Well I I I think that was possibly the the tradition to the outside world I. I think the traditionalism gets into I'll keep you on a pedestal as long as you are the traditional wife and you obey my rules. I thought of getting as I think there was a lot more violence there then we were willing to talk about. I mean hack I mean I've considered this rebel almost that's that's talking about it now and in the late 80s. I think there was more there than we accept. I often hear that explanation that there was really more there. But in those days we

didn't we had never heard of woman violence Thank you. Women of violence we didn't need any war we needed them we just did it. You know we needed on this just that the women were going out because of the traditional background she she was there to keep the tradition was the wife of the wife rather house kept the guy in the house happy with what we've seen with black eyes and the bruises. I think they were there I think these are the women that just didn't go out or you know wore the sunglasses I think they were there or said they but you know they fell or they you know opted to doors I mean I'm fairly traditional certainly early in the marriage and most of the marriage and they're the things that I did because I just know that this wasn't going to it wasn't wouldn't be happening to me and especially very upper middle class they would be happening to me if I had done something wrong this was my main This was my job and if I wasn't if I was going to this type of behavior then obviously I wasn't doing my job well. I really I really believe that it was there the problem was

there it's just that women's consciousness I guess had been raised and so we had you know we didn't go out and go to shelters. There is a there is a reasonable sociological explanation as to why your children have grown up in a situation of domestic crown quality. They will not resort to violence and that is that when children have grown up in a tranquil well-functioning. Two parent family they actually have years of experience in making marriage work before they get married. In other words they have seen marriage modeled for them you know in today's world where we have families of all different structures and sometimes as often as not dysfunctional children grow up and arrive at marriage age having having never seen a successful marriage modeled what you think of us. Well I I disagree with that too because. I mean yes that that that I

guess would hold true with some people but violence didn't just domestic violence just hatch in the past couple years. It is you know the people who are battering Now they did. They saw their family battered it's not just because they were from one parent or you know dysfunctional household. I have a one parent household now and I know that my children are in a much stronger much better home much more functional home than they were when they were in the other one with the Father and to the outside world with a father who was a very good provider. So you know. It's just I'd like to think that life was tranquil and peaceful as you portray it but really it's it hasn't been quite that way for all these years. We're starting to run out of time I've got a couple of other callers on I want to get to we only have five six minutes the time ends up going very very quickly and I wish that we had more. What we will just have to deal. And when the time comes we'll see if we can get both these these other people here in

before we finish here a line number one is next Hello. I want to say that I agree with your speaker if it think people who are battering out had to have learned it from somebody and I can recall growing up and hearing it from it. MARTIN But what about let's say things like playing with him because the children really had no option and a way to support herself to get her children away from a battering husband I had friends who I would parents would talk about like and these are people whose parents were in my mother's generation the same generation this man is talking about. Those women had to put the best. I don't think it's because it couldn't. There's no way that they could support themselves and take care of their children away from the marriage and they just put up with a battering until the children are grown and I could not get away or hope that things got better then those kids learned from their fathers. The

same generation of people this man is talking about are so very well hidden. I agree and we also have to we still laugh about I mean look at the Honeymooners I mean you know Ralph would raise his fist and you know tell a threat now that she's going to the moon someday and we all laughed. I don't think that's funny anymore I mean you know it's the old Vaudeville joke Why did you stop beating your wife who said I ever did you know it's like it was there it was there it's just that it was a very very silent crime. And you you know you you were almost criticized if you certainly by men if you broke the taboo and did speak about it. Take another caller here and lie number two. Hello. Yes I just wanted to add further credence to that same thing from anecdotal examples in our own family. I have an older family member who is 35 years old when told me many stories of what it was like as a young woman and growing up around her peers and where this man says he didn't see anything you didn't know about it. Are you did. Because so many stories of young women that he knew at that time who were bruised and

battered who would wear long sleeved dress and long and high collars and carefully make their faces up so that the battering would not sound that they could go to church on Sunday and I would know that. And interestingly enough these same families were still aware of today who have children in their 40s and 50s and perhaps grandchildren in their 20s. Many of these children in these families today have the same tremendous problems with battering and tremendous emotional problems with their own children so it was their their IT guys go around and I think there's a lot of affirmation for what she's saying and if this gentleman didn't see it before it's simply because he wasn't able to. And that also brings up a point which you said many men even in the heat of anger will batter in areas that are easy to cover up. We one of the things that I want to ask in maybe we've we have really answered the question. Your your situation got a lot of attention.

You wrote the book and during your divorce trial there happened to be a reporter there reporting from Wall Street Journal. He wrote a story that appeared in the paper and led your house your former husband had to resign his position as a CNN and sort of made you a national figure for good or ill. But you know we've been talking about your particular case. How did how does what happened to you generalize way does it mean more than than just this. This was you. Was your life. Oh there's. And it happens to a lot of people and and there's a fairly common thread. It doesn't depend. It doesn't matter where you live or basically how old you are or your financial position in life the things that happened to us and the dynamics of family violence are almost always the same. I have heard from actually most of the letters I get are

from upper middle class women most of whom usually say something like You know we were married to the same man that's how common my story is. And that many times when I speak like last night when I spoke they were sever several shelter and have a dance there and they were you know beautiful young women who haven't necessarily had all the financial benefits that I have had to be at their stories are the same. And you know the dynamics are pretty much the same no matter you know who you are. I get one more person that I want to try and get in here on the toll free line if you can try and make your question pretty quick for us I don't know. Oh I thought that I did have a fabricator for Mary. I think of your husband you know. Growth figure of a man and I mean when you're in the supermarket. I think Standard little kids fucking everything. Well he did it. I don't think that there are maybe young girls so kind of sucking it

wondering what if any of his have you been to what is it. That's right you're very kind of government. You mean as if I will make a comment I think this might be along what you're saying. John's height. Perhaps just and I do think it increased his poor self-esteem. I mean people think oh he's so tall that's a lot to live with. That's another fairly common thread they're trying to you know figure out who the typical quotation marks batter is. I don't think they really have one. However a common thread is usually they don't think so highly of themselves. And I I think possibly that's what the caller was indicating that you know you know maybe that had had some effect on his his you know behavior but certainly not an excuse me you know a lot of you know tall guys that don't batter there are a lot of short guys that you know do so. You know but they basically also have a poor self-esteem poor self image

themselves. We will just have to we'll have to leave it at that. Thanks very much for. For talking Thank you for having Charlotte Fedders our guest and you can read her story in the book Shattered Dreams. It was first published last year in hardcover by Harper Rowling no has just come out in paper by Dell.