Focus 580; The Trials of Lenny Bruce: the Fall and Rise of An American Icon

This morning on focus 580 will be talking with one of the authors of a new book which is titled The Trials of Lenny Bruce the Fall and Rise of an American icon. It's a book that explores the career and also the Free Speech struggles of Lenny Bruce. It also includes a companion CD with some of his routines and also interviews with people who were followers and friends. Our guest is Ronald Collins. He grew as a graduate of Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. He was a judicial fellow in the U.S. Supreme Court he is currently the First Amendment scholar in residence at the First Amendment Center in Arlington Virginia and he's written scholarly articles in The Harvard Stanford and Michigan law reviews and also more than one hundred fifteen years paper op ed pieces his co-author by the way on the book is David Scott over. He's a law professor at Seattle University Law School. The book is out now it's in the bookstores if you want to take a look at it. Questions and comments are certainly welcome. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also have a toll free line that's good anywhere that you can hear us and that is

800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 comments are welcome we just ask callers to be brief so that we can keep the program moving and getting as many people as possible. Anyone is welcome to call Mr. Collins. Hello. Greetings. Thank you for having me. Well thanks for being with us we certainly appreciate it. I understand that you and Mr.. School for your co-author were very much involved in this effort to persuade Governor Pataki to pardon Lenny Bruce. Why is it why is it that you thought this was such an important thing now so many years after the trial and in fact so many years after his death. Well Lenny Bruce Don in 1966 It's been a long time he was convicted in New York and 1964 of obscenity not conviction for reasons we can get into was never overturned. When I wrote the trials Lenny Bruce published by the way by an Illinois publisher of sourcebooks I could mention that when we wrote

the book to get five years to write we felt we were just a man that you know these things happened in our own lifetimes. Admittedly we were very young. And you know when he Bruce's free speech struggles prosecuted in San Francisco in Los Angeles in Illinois and Chicago at the Gate of Horn and then in New York it didn't even occurred and and so what we have to do is to write a biography of Lenny Bruce Bruce true the lens of his obscenity trials is just incredible story. When we were done we found out that contrary to popular belief even the popular belief was that old Lenny Bruce's convictions had been reversed either thrown out by the judges at the trial level a jury would find him not guilty or an appellate court would sustain his first name and claims. But we did the research we found out lo and behold at the New York Times where he was convicted of using colorful words in a Greenwich club after dark but that conviction had never been reversed.

The reason had never been reversed is that Manny had fired his lawyers and he tried to handle his own appeal in however great a comedian he was and he was a great a canyon he was an awful lawyer and so he didn't for technical reasons he didn't perfect his appeal and what that meant was that his conviction was never were first he left New York as you know off a criminal fugitive if you will and then he died on August 3rd 1966 of an overdose and that's where the Lenny Bruce story I didn't put it all together in a book called The Trials of Lenny Bruce. And it occurred to me you know just as we were getting toward the end of the book you know the president stands on the books in New York and it just seemed like an incredible injustice. I spoke to David and the two of us looked up with Robert corner of your noted First Amendment lawyer with whom we've done work and we petitioned the governor of New York and figured whatever else happened we thought this was something that should be done. We never anticipated that it would happen. On the other hand being committed to the

First Amendment we believe in howling at the moon and that we're going to be willing to let it stand there. And on December 23rd Governor Pataki did what had never been done. He posthumously pardoned somebody in New York the first time it happened in the earth's history and the first time in American history that anybody has been posthumously pardoned for a crime involving free speech. So we were very excited. And it is the case and I'm hoping remembering this right is that that at the time that he was charged in this incident in the cafe a go go in Greenwich Village the guy who ran the club was also charged but his conviction and he was found guilty as well but his conviction was later set aside after Lani's death. Yet your point is very well taken and it was key to our petition it proved. But at the time our petition was based on the war as it existed in 1964 not if it existed. Thousand and three so this is kind of no revisionist reworking of history.

Our point was that any time law was with Lenny Bruce by the way one of your own former governors Governor Thompson had argued at the appellate level. Aw against Lenny Bruce in an attempt to sustain his convictions Lenny Bruce had been convicted for similar acts. They get a warrant in Chicago and a trial court found him guilty and sentenced him to a year and Governor Thompson was not the governor of course he was the one of the main lawyers who argued that appeal and he argued unsuccessfully to the Illinois Supreme Court that Lenny Bruce's act was not protected. First moment and it's precisely because that Illinois ruling that New York courts and others would in other cases find the act of Lenny Bruce did read it under the First Amendment. Lenny Bruce certainly became known for using stand up to do social commentary and he talked about things like sex and

religion and race that were not generally discussed in public much less from a platform like that. He though when you look at at the trajectory of his career he certainly didn't start out that way. He didn't set out to do that. How is it do you think that he ended up going in the direction that he did and I want to you know to what extent the fact that at various points people said to him you know wave the finger in his in his face and said look Mr. Bruce you can't do that. The fact that people told him he couldn't made him wanted to it even more. I guess I'm just you're getting you know it's always hard to look into the mind of another human being let alone a dead one. But my guess is a combination of things. First of all it was into the DNA. I mean Lenny Bruce I mean persona was that he was the kind of guy that's that stepped out a lot you know ranter with the truth. WOMAN He was provocative. It's who he is. You know in time this sort of thing would come very natural to how many bruises

might have been some commercial reasons he thought you know to just kind of get attention or what have you that's certainly within the realm of possibility. But you know and he did skyrocketed to fame in the late 50s and early 60s and people like Steve Allen you know had him on the show and very much defended him. But after a while when the police started you know coming after him starting in San Francisco then in Los Angeles bust after post after post. And you know it's not just the words that many used it's not those four letter words those 10 letter words it was it was what he was saying about race. It was what he was saying about religion particularly in Chicago I mean that really got I mean for all practical purposes Lenny Bruce was busted in Chicago at the Gate of Horn for blasphemy. And you know what exact fact. He was offending people you know he was you know all talk as it were and more than anything else.

That's why it was busted. The words were kind of a you know kind of a legal excuse for prosecutors to come after him. These prosecutions were brought in in major cities and I guess if you would think there would be any place where people's attitudes towards this sort of thing would be fairly relaxed. It would be in cities like New York and San Francisco. How would how and you know given the fact that some people at least would have made the argument the time that said this is protected speech. How is it these prosecutions were brought at all. Well I would you know they would do it but if the for. Venters the freedom you would have you know was Angela San Francisco Chicago New York I mean my God if you can't get freedom there where else can you possibly get it. And again I think it is and this is what the first minutes will pan out. Here is the idea that offensive speech or speech that kind of you know goes

to our or that offends us about our belief in God in our belief in country and our belief in family and our belief in morals. You know that people in these big cities as much as it does anywhere and you know that kind of you know Lenny with an equal opportunity offender I mean most of his audience were liberal but you know there were a number routines he did he didn't want to get a phone on Adolf Eichmann which made many Jewish Americans feel uncomfortable and you know and it's so the tide should be doing something on. You know the cardinal of the pope which should make many Catholic Americans feel uncomfortable and one thing about Lenny Bruce show is when you went to him and you can hear this I mean we have on the CD accompanying the book. Yeah cool audio of the routines he did the night he did when he was busted so you can just hear it you know in its original form. You know when you want 20 pre-show you never knew what to expect you never knew who is going to

be on that night and that was part of the excitement of it on the other hand you could find yourself laughing one moment and being the friend of the next and just saying you know and that kind of proverbial went well now he's crossed the line. And of course that's what Lenny Bruce was all about crossing the line. Our guest in this part of focus 580 is Rob Collins. He's a scholar at the First Amendment Center in Arlington Virginia and he is the co-author of the book the trials of Lenny Bruce the Fall and Rise of an American icon and he's published by sourcebooks and looks at both the career of Lenny Bruce and also the various charges against him and the trials that he experienced that had to do with obscenity or with people who who were charging him with using obscenity in his various nightclub performances. There is as we mentioned a companion CD that includes some of the material. And if you want to hear it you're going to have to go out and buy the book because we can't play it. And I guess I'm still a little bit confused. I guess part of the reason I'm confused I guess is that

I know that for example were he alive today. Lenny Bruce could do his routines on HBO. And I don't think that there would be any problem I mean some people might be offended and angry but he could do them. My understanding is that I couldn't play it here on this radio show but on cable I guess you can pretty much do whatever you want. So to me I guess I'm still a little bit confused about what it is you can say and where it is you can say it but the last I heard the seven dirty words I mean which you know in the in the George Carlin case the U.S. Supreme Court said could be regulated and that the Federal Communications Commission. Regularly the last I heard we moved from seven dirty words but for a time I'm never quite sure which ones you can use and which ones you can't and even as we speak the chairman of the Federal Communications Committee Michael Powell is trying to decide whether or not the F-word at least in its adjectival form can be used and if it could be used going to be used for

political purposes or what have you. But you know I mean it just points out the problem and that is that you know when you set out to censor it becomes difficult or impossible as to where to draw the line. And that's what Lenny Bruce was all that bad. He was out there to kind of obliterate those lines to point that out. I mean it was just so much of his commentary that was political it didn't appeal to prudent interest. So you say why. You know why is it that you you know if we listen to Bob or George Carlin or somebody or Margaret Cho for example and they use the colorful word that that can't be aired. But why is that if we listen to you know the tapes of Richard Nixon or President Johnson but using the same exact words why is one permissible. You know in some context and not in others and you know this is the whole open under him and I believe that if our first M stands for anything it's opinions for the proposition that these decisions should not be left

to the government but they should be left to individuals and broadcast stations and whatever. Well that's what I think another reason you couldn't play Lenny Bruce could be theirs and retains use when it's no colorful language you might have reservations about plane and because they're not politically correct. Even today it was even today and again you know I think one of the big challenges of the first time today is political. And quite often it's liberals who are violating the First Amendment rather than the kind of traditional conservative the kind of people we think of who went after Lenny Bruce by the way one of Lenny Bruce is really prosecutors a young guy out of Los Angeles named Johnny Cochran. Yeah that's another interesting it's interesting how people whose names we now recognize today perhaps in different sorts of context were involved in this one as you say was was one of our former governors Jim Thompson and the other was Johnnie Cochran who at one time was on the other side of the proceedings and there was indeed a prosecutor and you know what was the best thing about writing this book is you know he did

because of the fault of flip or flop one way or another I mean so you had people like Thompson and Cochran who are prosecuting Lenny Bruce and then the person who really stood side by side with Lenny Bruce defended him when everybody else was you know a bad name was Steve Allen. And yet toward the end of his career Steve Altham led the campaign to kind of clean up the you know that had come to our airwaves and what have you I would make you kind of sometimes wonder well you know what would you balance about you know having Lenny Bruce on the radio today or on television. I want to maybe you could talk specifically about some of these trials and beginning with the one that took place in San Francisco this was in. 62 and in which he was acquitted and the jury apparently afterwards said they weren't happy about that but they said that based on the instructions they were given by the judge they felt that they had no choice so maybe this also gives

us an opportunity to talk a little bit about what what exactly the law of the law and the court the big court has said about this issue of obscenity. Well I mean let me you know Fortune was smiling on him. Look at that. I mean God knows you know God when I was that kind of him. But basically you know the Supreme Court ruled in 1957 a rather important case Rodgers's United States and it had been tested in San Francisco when when Lawrence Ferlinghetti was busted for selling out a poem by Allen Ginsberg in one what if well what did you know based on that trial when when Dylan Getty was found not guilty by that judge that that was the end of the matter in San Francisco that you know certain types of expression used for literary purposes or artistic purposes or in clubs. I think Lenny pretty much assumed that and so when he came when he was. That in fact Cisco basically busted for you know his humor

relating to gays and lesbians in Francisco and the judge that he had in that case was the same judge who had exonerated Lawrence Ferlinghetti when trying to get he was prosecuted for selling how and so it's almost as if the decks were stacked if the jury in San Francisco had been left to their own devices they would have found Lenny Bruce guilty but the judge is very sensitive to First Amendment freedoms gave them instructions that made it all but impossible if they honored the law to do anything but find Lennie not guilty and so they came back grudgingly they felt that many priest was guilty but true to the first time at least as presented to them by the judge in San Francisco they found him not guilty and so you know Lenny Bruce is leaving San Francisco according to newspaper accounts at the time and he's all gleeful and you know you know it's a new day for him and he's now headed for

Chicago the Windy City where he thinks you know the First Amendment is the window to his back and all of these problems are behind him and little did he know that that was hardly the case. Well we can talk some more about that and I do however have a call I want to bring into the conversation and tell anyone of course who is listening if you're interested in joining in. Questions comments are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 that's here in Champaign Urbana toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 the caller is in Atlanta. Illinois. Line number four. Good morning gentlemen I've got a question. If I remember right I think Playboy magazine you know Chicago can actually do a lot to try to bring the funny Bruce thing to light and do a lot to help that situation with artists want to help. Absolutely Hugh Hefner stood with Lenny Bruce for any variety of on any variety of occasions in

instances which would really not in any way bring him any financial gain him meaning Hefner. He also took Lenny Bruce with Maurice Rosenfield a very prominent lawyer who still I'm pleased to say still alive and with us today and played a very important role in when we wrote the trials of Lenny Bruce. I had hooked up Lenny Bruce with Morrie Rosenfield who would think that fully along with Gary Calvin from the University of Chicago and William ng represent Lenny in the Illinois Supreme Court so yes after at the time did play a significant role there were a handful of people that stood by Lenny Bruce when he was in dire straits. Hugh Hefner was one of those people Steve Allen with another and Phil Spector who's now had his own problems with the law it was yet another interesting conversation and I remember reading the Bible Code years ago to fame. I mean like you know really nobody closer to God to regard to better or worse when it

went there was always some kind of. To give to people I want to thank you. All right thanks for the color of their questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5. We talked just a moment ago about the San Francisco trial and the fact that Lenny Bruce was fortunate that the judge had strong feelings about the First Amendment and based on his instructions to the jury the jury found him not guilty. Otherwise they probably would have so then now he goes on to Chicago and he has arrested once again for this performance of this place called the Gate of Horn. And here the result the outcome though was different in that trial. He was found guilty. What was the difference between the two. Imagine I mean for one thing I don't think it would ever occur to Lenny Bruce that you know he thought that Chicago I mean Chicago was too hip. I mean you know that particular gate of Orne and but you know I

think your caller last caller had it right there was a vendetta in many respects against Bruce you know in many towns and he comes from Chicago and as freewheeling as the city was in those days it could have its Irish Catholic devout segment and I don't say that in any critical way. And so when Lenny Bruce comes to town and you know goes after the pope in the crowd on the big ship with wild abandon it does so in a colorful way. It catches the attention of local authorities and it believe me it caught them. It definitely caught the attention. And so he's at the Gate of Horn and he's performing and the police come in and they basically say that they're he's being arrested for blasphemy and not being formally charged with that and they tell the owner of the Gate of Horn that if this continues there. When to shut the club down the best meaning these attacks on the Catholic Church and and a good one in time does close down because of the Lenny Bruce prosecution and you know what happened from that thereafter was so bizarre it was almost something

right out of a Lenny Bruce skit and we wrote this book the trials of many Proust one of the things I was so excited about it was that this kind of these bizarre situations that always seem to find Lenny Bruce comes into you know he's basically charged with blasphemy. He's probably charged with obscenity of course and he comes into court with his lawyer who's Jewish and from New York so they're the only two Jewish guys there the broom and they look around and everybody you know the judge the jury the foreman the bailiff the lawyers everybody has ashes on their foreheads. If Ash Wednesday and. Here it is you know being prosecuted in effect for you know dissing the Catholic hierarchy. I mean it was just bizarre and when it was done Judge Ryan the jury finds that a guilty and judge wrongly and sentenced Lenny Bruce to one year in jail for Word Crimes in a club after dark in

Chicago. And by the way on appeal Lenny Bruce has about the best three lawyers ever. Yeah Terry Calvin the noted first intimate scholar now deceased from the University of Chicago. He has Maury Rosenfield a very prominent lawyer very skilled in civil liberties and other areas. And he has well meaning a guy who's been kind of lost to history meaning prominent civil rights lawyer had worked with a good marshal on Brown v. Board and would have probably been on the Supreme Court had he not had some run in with the law about tax returns for which he went to jail years later. But these are his three attorneys and the case goes to the Illinois Supreme Court. Lenny loses in the Illinois Supreme Court and in all about the month or so later the SPEs decision comes down from the U.S. Supreme Court involving the First Amendment and the Illinois Supreme Court asks the parties in the case to reprieve the case and the Illinois Supreme

Court tell the parties that get on it. All motion is now going to reconsider its ruling and what to be. The Illinois Supreme Court reverses itself. And Lenny Bruce's rights to perform off on First Amendment grounds. It was just it was an incredible moment in legal history and it happened there in the state of Illinois. Our guest in this part of focus 580 is Ron Collins. He is an attorney he's also a scholar at the First Amendment Center in Arlington Virginia and he is the co-author of a book that we've been talking about here. The book is titled The Trials of Lenny Bruce The Rise and Fall of an American icon which looks at his various trials for obscenity. The book is published by source books so you can head out to the bookstore and take a look at it if you're interested. Also questions comments here are welcome on the show 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 we're now headed into our second half and again

we just like to remind callers to be brief please and as that helps us keep the program moving and in as many different people as possible. Next we have someone listening in Champaign will go to line 1. Hello I have a hope I haven't missed any discussion of this how far but. Could your guests actually talk about First Amendment issues today and how he sees and spoke in relation to them or maybe there's no relation but actually maybe talk about the Patriot Act to act and things of that nature. Well I would be glad to address that question. The Patriot Act obviously raises a number of issues but there is a little wide of the mark at least in terms of what we spoke about in the trials of Lenny Bruce. If you just start with the basic proposition that what Lenny Bruce was prosecuted for first and foremost with offensive to you. That notion of offense if ideas continues to plague us today it may be people marching in Skokie it may be people who are involved in expression

it's not politically correct. It may be so-called indecent words on our airwaves and whether or not someone can or can't use them. So it may be artists putting on shows at public museums that some people find obscene or indecent or offensive in some way. So that whole principle I mean you know going after a person for a sense of the idea that this much. Part of our culture today as it was then you know somebody make might find themselves on TV saying something about the war or might they find them saying something colorful about gays or lesbians or civil rights or whatever the issue may be. And so one of the reasons that people discovered I petition the governor Pataki was a Governor Pataki of New York posthumously pardoned Lenny Bruce. And now that pardon has been granted to you know have some formal recognition of the importance of the First Amendment to kind of make New York a safe haven for free speech

for speech that you know we tolerate even though it offends us. And you know what Lenny Bruce's audience. But often they had no problem when he was going after Catholics but you know then when he started you know doing routines or bad Jews that might make them feel uncomfortable or vice versa you know. And one of the things was that if I said he was an equal opportunity offender. And so if anything the story of Lenny Bruce is the story in many ways the free speech in America it's the whole story about you know how we as a people do or do not deal with a speech that offends us. And I think if anything at all what would spread as people very interested in working with the person would so excited about. We were so excited when we wrote the traps Lenny Bruce was it that this principal comes out yet again. And in that respect whether or not Lenny Bruce's routines would or we wouldn't be permitted in a comedy club today is is that is apt

to be considered against the larger point by the way. Lenny Bruce almost single handedly liberated comedy clubs. I mean after Lenny Bruce who has prosecuted and died there was never again a prosecution in a comedy club for Word Crimes just words alone. And. You know I think our clubs are better afford better that people can go and speak in an uninhibited robust wide open way without looking over their back as to whether or not the police are going to come after them I think they're better at it. We have talent like Margaret Cho and George Carlin who can spot a Robin Williams going on HBO and can speak freely without fear of being hauled off to jail. That legacy is due in significant measure to what Lenny Bruce did and the trials that you heard at the end. If you think you're talking about you know saying what can't be said or saying what can't be thought or thought control or cultural

control. But how do you have an idea about how do you connect that to political correctness. And if there's any way of encouraging respect for difference without shutting down pre-speech. Well you know you have your right to all the right questions. You know when you say political correctness. Obviously we should all have sensitivities when it comes to matters of race when it comes to matters of gender when it comes to you know sexual orientation whatever. Any decent society that respects people and respects humankind which do that. But when the government comes in and says well you know ah Lenny Bruce you cannot do that routine on it off Eichmann because it would offend Jews or Lenny Bruce you cannot do this routine on gays and lesbians because it would offend gays and lesbians or Lenny Bruce you cannot do this routine on Catholics because it would offend them. This is where political correctness and you know butts its head or

rams if you will the First Amendment. And I suspect that you know much of Lenny Bruce's routines are performed on college campuses today to people who would be trying to shut that expression down my guess is quite often though not always would be liberal. Thank you. Thank you caller we have certainly time for other folks if you want to call in this question may come at 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free 800 2 2 2 9. 4 5 I want to give you an opportunity to talk about the New York trial which was probably the biggest of all and this was actually this actually took place before the Illinois supreme court set aside Bruce's conviction in the gate of our trial. This was the one based on his the routine he did at the cafe A Go-Go and this was the conviction that Pataki just for which Pataki just issued that the pardon this was an amazing case is at least if you look at how long it took how many people were involved although the participants only spent

13 actual days in court this thing stretched over six months and there were more than sixteen hundred pages of court transcript. This was a when you look at the time and energy and how many people were involved this was a amazing undertaken undertaking particularly when you consider the fact that we all they were talking about a misdemeanor here and not exactly a high crime. Well you're absolutely right and thank you for having read the book. I really appreciate that doesn't always happen on talk radio. Yeah it was just you know when we were writing his book we couldn't believe it. I mean the more research we did and you know just to find all these things happened before I spend a moment on the New York trial just let me quickly mention something about the Los Angeles trial it's had its moments as all of them did here in Los Angeles. Lenny was using colorful words you know and of course in order to you know trying to get a conviction under the obscenity laws people have to understand if something's offensive and you know the prosecutors in

L.A. found a Jewish parent who understood you to who went to his show and took note and thereafter you know came after Lenny Bruce for using that obscene words in a foreign tongue to which you know again it was it could have made for Wonderful any brew schtick. But in Los Angeles they cannot obtain a conviction and then we move on to New York. Yes you're right. Lenny Bruce performs a copy of Go-Go in New York in April of 1964. You know and I didn't but not one. Twice along with the owner of the quad band Richard cue the man who prosecuted the case and others made it pretty clear that they were going to go you know at the mat on this. As you mentioned the case lasted you know on and off for six months it was before three trial judges would get a misdemeanor you know score some scores of witnesses testified including nahin top

syndicated columnist who I'm happy to say agreed to narrate the CD that accompanies her book and it was it was the trial of the absurd it was bizarre. You know you just couldn't imagine that this was happening happening in America in the last you know explosion of the counterculture. And here Lenny Bruce is being prosecuted. And when the prosecution when the arrest first starts. A number of celebrities you know make a public statement signed a petition protesting and those celebrities included you know Woody Allen Bob Diehl Bob Bob Dylan and you know Elizabeth Taylor and you know the whole host of others and you know they were incensed by this and yet the prosecution went on to what the end of the trial Lenny Bruce in his wisdom and I say that in a terrible way he fires and hires from London to lead toward returning and then Martin Garbus council he fires them for no apparent reason and he decides he's going to hell the end of his crowd

in Philadelphia and toward the end of his trial you know with just about a week to go he approaches the bench and he serves each of the three judges who within a week will pass on you know his judgment. Yes. Each of them with a complaint he is suing them for violating his First Amendment right. I mean it wasn't so tragic it would be comic. It is an American example of an American standing on his rights looking in the water you know in the eye literally and saying I will not back down. We might applaud him as being a courageous defender of the First Amendment of course. It didn't bode well for the fate that would soon be falt him and by a 2 to 1 decision this trial court finds Lenny Bruce guilty and sentenced him to four months in Riker's. And if he fails to pay he's going to handle his appeal and he fails to perfect it and he skips town he's a fugitive. What's amazing is that New York never attempted to extradite him for this misdemeanor.

And by that time he's bought a lock. He's out of money. Prozac hasn't been invented. He's depressed. He's got a monkey on his back he said. As Bob Dylan put it it junkyard Angel Dylan by the way did a song called Lenny. And on August 3rd 1966 Lenny Bruce dies of an overdose penniless. Nobody really to defend him Phil Spector picks up the tab for Sunil and then within a year or two afterwards rises from the ashes like a phoenix. And all of a sudden America. The comedian that they had prosecuted in San Francisco Los Angeles Chicago New York becomes this great cultural icon and biographies are written to be essential Lenny Bruce comes out Broadway play by Julian Berry called Lenny and then the movie with Hoffman Lenny and all the sudden kind of Bruce becomes this great American icon and when we wrote the trial when he bruised he already had the status as

a great American icon but we try to do is to say you know he really deserves the status of this great American icon and defender of free speech. That's what the Trouts Lenny Bruce was all about. Well that's you know point to one of the great ironies here is as you write it in the book I don't know who penned the line but it's a good line that I'll take credit for the take by the car the years of Lenny Bruce's life came after his death and that that that's that that is that is true. And again it is a little bit later how could a comic vilified by the state and abandoned by so many be resurrected as a free speech hero but in fact that is. What happened. You know I suppose I was being flip when I said I penned that line David and I wrote echo and I wrote every line in the book together more or less. But you know it is if you think about what you just mentioned you know it's kind of how we treat our hero. You know we admire them and we pray that when they're dead you know. I mean it's when their lives you know we're making no lives miserable and anything else and I

hope that this book serves as the lesson of the importance not to have any more First Amendment martyrs you know on hand. If Lenny Bruce were alive today I have no doubt that he would be saying things that would be offending people right and left and then you know people in every locale would be trying to find a way to censor him to shut him up shut him down to run him out of town. And you know that again what I think is why the story of the trials of Bruce is such a fascinating story in American history and in the history of the First Amendment in this country. Well it's certainly more than one person has commented on Bruce's self-destructive personality at the same time you have to acknowledge what going through these various prosecutions did he as you say. Say that he ended up broke. Nobody wanted to. Nobody wanted to employ him nobody wanted to hire him for their club because they were afraid of what he would say and that not only would he be prosecuted that they would

be prosecuted. He really really became something of a persona non-grata So I guess you have to wonder to what extent his legal troubles contributed to the way that his life ended. You know whether he was maybe headed that way anyway. Yeah. You know he like Janis Joplin Jimi Hendrix and others. I mean he was on the fast track you could get common. I mean when he died Phil Spector said in a rather flip way he died of an overdose of cops. It isn't true today. Yeah but you know he had his own problems. He had his own devil's own demons. Certainly drugs or drugs were one of them. And you know the depression the fact that he was out of money you know all of those things in fact as I said one of his Illinois lawyers Maury Rosenfield did everything he can they could to prevent you know prevent me from self-destructing you know and he was I mean he was. Many are doing is trying to argue his case on appeal Mori Rosenfield knew this was going to be disastrous he was doing everything in his power to Conan to

convince Bruce to let you know some seasoned lawyers endless case and tell him that if you only listen to us you'll win of course that he didn't didn't follow the wisdom that Maury Rosenfield gave to him and it cost him. So yeah there was this self-destructive side but you know you know Bob Dylan has expanded line you know if you ain't got nothing you got nothing to lose and it really was a lot about Lenny Bruce. I mean he'd be in those nightclubs and the blue would be lined up in the back you know five eight strong you know they're taken down no if you can believe it and it didn't stop him at all. He just went on and did it and then you know he'd be hauled away in handcuffs. You know it takes a lot to do that. Some would call it creates as would call it self destructive probable but both of our guests Ron Cohen she's co-author of the book the trials of Lenny Bruce The Rise and Fall of American icon and we have about 10 minutes left we have several callers. We'll try to get everybody in.

Starting with Bloomington Indiana line number four. A low point where the fired he has a right to protect. Is there a point at which I'm certain of which the family has a right to protect its decency. Oh yeah. Society protected Stevenson any Ferrari of ways are whether or not it needs to do that in order to censor expression is yet another quote I mean there's all sorts of ways we as parents we as educators we as people of faith are exercised that right as well we should have 11 year old I do it every day. We're not writing the balun. Steve Ballmer certainly not big but he was disgusted at the depths to which some of the public entertainment had sunk and I think you know if you get it wrong kind of. Very Young were entertained barbarians. Do you remember that.

Not only it's mentioned in the trial so Lenny Bruce your caller you're right on the money. And one of the questions I would we had planned the interview Steve Allen and you know it's awful but he died said another we could have done but one of the questions we would ask him is how was it that you Steve Allen who defended he defended money Bruce and Bill but Daithi valent died and never once PVA did from that course defended Lenny Bruce's first minute right and I think the answer was all that he thought that the government had no business even foreseen laws in this way but that if commercial entities broadcasters and others decided that they didn't want this quote unquote felt that that was their judgment and the government had to leave it alone. Remember our universities are based on speech codes don't think wrong and I think though the number the speech codes probably violate the First Amendment. And I don't know. I'm certainly against them but

it's certainly not permitted on the public airwaves and should be. Do you believe you believe people should use that N-word on the public dole Kennedy wrote a book called nigger and he's a Harvard professor and he talked about how that book is how that word is used in our music how it's used in songs. I mean you know do I approve of it being used in a pejorative way as a racial epithet No I don't. But the fact is if you read Randall Kennedy's book called nigger an African-American a law professor at Harvard University you will see what happens when the government attempts to censor even a word with all of that kind of racist back which we can we can discuss race and we can discuss every part of Wright without using that word can't we without being pejorative without degrading any. On can we do that. Well I just used it. Yeah I know but you use it in a very in a very generic way. Well Lenny Bruce had a routine and it opened with are there any niggers here tonight he had a

routine and that was that. And all of that and thereafter he went to mention to a number of other groups with the de-fang the word if it's racist in fact that was his whole idea and it's not it's not if the words come from the Almighty you know filth all this and so the whole idea of what Lenny Bruce did that routine What do we draw from it was to de-value if you will its racist impact whether or not that is or is not a good idea I'll leave to you to decide but it is not a question of the. Government should decide. Appreciate the comments of the caller again we're really getting short on time and I'd like to try to get in some others. Next caller is in Southeastern Illinois on our line one below. Yeah I can perfectly understand Steve Allen's stance and impending right to free speech and being unhappy about the result I mean it started about grace in the spiri working in there. And and language.

One question I was wondering is the U.S. Supreme Court decision that affected they have an AI Supreme Court decision that did that involve that of a book or something and that I would check the ballots versus Ohio that was argued bought from London who was Lenny Bruce's New York lawyer and in the Jack ballasts case which had the right of opinions the court made it clear primarily speaking to the question of literary context. The standard for obscenity was far more liberal than the Illinois Supreme Court thought it to be. Well Douglas was just yes I guess was that I mean there are a whole series of books that were read had been banned there. You're absolutely right Caller Yeah. Well back out move on let someone else stop and thank you sir. Let's go to Champagne county line number two.

Hello. Oh it's. Yes I think it's something I heard on NPR that. And it's not illegal. Well has legal implications but he was denied a performance license right. And not I mean obviously he was barred from playing in New York after e. Yeah but to deny performance licenses and even access to England I mean it's kind of hard for us to imagine that you need a performance license I guess you could say that it could come from like some cultural outfit but I think it was actually handled by the police department absolutely right it was that's what you needed in those days is almost kind of like this board of answers and it just shows you how it leads to I promise about how different the world was you know that's what I was trying on I think highlight that because. And what. Yank that for me you were dead. You couldn't perform anywhere and that was Lenny Bruce's problem because you have something further.

I guess maybe he is not there anymore and in any case here we have maybe about 3 4 minutes just to get to the bottom line on free speech is as far as your concern is thinking about the conversation you had with a couple of callers back is it your position that basically on speech that we don't like is you would say if you don't like it don't listen. I mean is that is that. Well I not only don't I don't want to say this. I believe in participatory democracy I believe that if there are races carry racist messages in the street people of good conscience have to go out there and country back. You know I think Brandeis Louis Brandeis the Supreme Court justice had it right. You know the answer is not censorship. It's more speech. And we exercise our First Amendment rights and we stand up to pickets when we stand up to people with sexist attitudes when we stand up to people who are homophobic when we stand up to people who agree or disagree with our position on Iraq. I mean and that's what this you know this experiment freedom is all about out and so

I don't I don't fear speech I think we're the better and the stronger at the end of the day when we speak our minds and speak freely. And for those people. Who are concerned about the coarsening of the culture who might say something like that in fact. Lenny Bruce and what he did started as the proverbial slippery slope to where we are today where maybe a lot of people would even if they as they say even if they do believe strongly in the first men would say but on the other hand I'm not real happy about the way that it's exercised. Well you know you make a good point. You know with liberty comes to excess. There's no doubt about it. Yeah I mean money helped to coarsen the culture a bit. But when I go and watch my great show and when I listen to her and I laugh and and I listen to her talk about sex and racism and what have you and it makes me think. And even when she's using colorful language that some would find careers I think were the better for it.

Sure. But you know as I said you know with liberty comes a certain amount of excess and if we don't like these things we need the people to stand up for our moral values and if it means Christians having bible groups being able to have bible groups and have them in public schools and elsewhere and go into a public forum more power to them. The First Amendment has no favorites. And you know we're concerned about of course you know our culture then let people of conscience Jewish Muslim Catholic Christian Protestant whatever their background let them go out into the community let them preach their gospel and if it makes our country better we're all the better. Well there is a good point for us to stop. Our guest this morning is a Rob Collins he's a scholar at the First Amendment Center in Arlington Virginia and he is the co author along with David Scott over who teaches law as well at Seattle University They're the co-authors of the book the trials of Lenny Bruce the Fall and Rise of an

American icon and sourcebooks is the publisher. And Mr. Collins thanks very much for talking with us. Thank you for sharing your airwaves with me.