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In this hour of the show we will look back to an event that captured the attention of the nation became a national story. Back in 1972 it's the sunshine mine disaster. Just about everybody who lived in the town of Kellogg Idaho had at least one family member who worked or had worked in the sunshine mine and everybody knew just how dangerous it was to be a miner. However no one could quite believe it when a fire broke out in the mine. This was May 2nd of 1972 because of the kind of mind that it was in. Well explained and it seemed that fire was unlikely if impossible but it happened and it burned for a week. It made national news. And of the 93 men who were trapped in the mine by the fire only two survived. This morning we'll get the story as we talk with investigative journalist Greg Olsen He's written a book all about the sunshine mine disaster it's titled the deep dark disaster and redemption in America's richest silver mine is published by Crown. He as a journalist and investigative reporter has been for more than two decades. He's

gotten a number of awards for his work he's the author of seven nonfiction books including one that was a bestseller titled abandoned prayers. Mr. Olson Hello. Good morning how are you. I'm fine thanks and yourself. I'm not doing too bad you know. I appreciate you giving us some of your time. You first I believe actually heard about the story when it happened. That's right oh with Oh well I was a teenager when it happened and living here in the Seattle area where I live now and it was on the news it was so obviously a huge story and every day it was grammar and grammar. The body count went up and up and up. And you know what really brought it home for me was that my father who was a failed man was driving through the Kellogg area at the time of all these funerals that they had. And he came home and gathered up the boys together and said you know you are going to believe this I thought a coffin in the back of a pickup truck. And we said What do you mean and he said well there was this coffin bouncing up and down in the back of his pickup truck. And you know we were just astounded by that. My dad said you

know it's because they didn't have enough hearses and Kellogg to take all the guys to their final resting places so that that image really stuck with me and made it sort of a perk. Connection to me always wondering about that town and that place and what happened there in 1072. So was there anything specific that made you know as a as a journalist want to go back and spend significant amount of time and you certainly didn't talk to a lot of people to paint this picture of what happened how the people reacted the effect that it had on the town. Ultimately the effect that it had on mining. It's kind of funny David. You know it's one of those stories that really did stick with me and every time we would drive back East you know to Nebraska where my family were from we would pass through on I-90 pass through Kellogg and Wallace the town with it with a huge impact. And I kind of wondered about the folks in those people and what happened. And I was astounded. You know 30 years later to find out that no one had ever bothered to write about it

it was such a huge event and it made people get into later changed mining forever. You certainly changed the lives of hundreds of people in a little town. This was the mine is now closed. It was closed in 2000. One at one time though this was one of the most productive silver mines ever. Yet still it still is considered America's richest silver mine. Like maybe it's probably now three hundred fifty million ounces of silver have been hauled out of that mine and it's a very deep mine David it's almost a mile underground at about 6000 feet below the surface. So it's a big massive mine and it's got a very high quality silver or tetrahedron which is the best. A lot of the mines in the area are more lean more toward lat or so this is a very prolific productive rich mine made lots of people millions. How long did the mine operate. It operated almost a century before they shut it down in 2001 because of escalating prices. Although I will tell you that development work looks good right now and

they're pumping water out of it to probably reopen in the year or two. It's for someone who has not done this. It's it's very difficult to imagine what conditions in the mine would be like and actually I think that you do a good job of describing it just trying to wrap your head around the idea that of of how deep it was I think I wrote this down that the deepest working level of the mine was 50 600 feet. Right. Is that right. That's right. And just I can't even trying to put myself in the frame of mind of thinking about what it would be like to be in the mine at that level and just think about the fact that all that rock. Was over your head. I'm not sure how what kind of psychological impact that I'm sure some people couldn't it wouldn't cope up to what it is very strange I look at it and I tell people you know they get a sense for how deep this is. You know think of a local landmark in your community that you know the height of an arc here in Seattle it's the Space Needle. So you know stand at the base of the Space Needle and look up. That's

six hundred five feet tall. The Space Needle it's 10 times that height. You're underground. I mean is that amazing. Yeah. You know and I've been underground a couple of times and I'll tell you that there is this it's an otherworldly type feeling going down that deep it's hot it's wet and you do have the sense that maybe it's a little feeling of impending doom because you are down there in the guts of the earth. Tell us a little bit about the town of Kellogg What's it like. Well you know Kellogg right now is the you know there are a sad little town in a lot of ways mining was their lifeline it had been for about a century and there are a number of very good mines there have been very successful mines in that area. But you know a lot of mining have gone overseas and where environmental concerns are are not of the astringent and prices for labor are lower. So they've really been in a real tailspin over the last probably 20 years. And hoping now that they'll become a you know a

ski slope and of and a tourist attraction but I will tell you that it's a mining town there's no question. And the people who live there are damn proud of that. I mean they want to be miners. They don't want to be the left operators or restaurant workers. They really want to get down there get dirty get that ore out and live that kind of a life that their grandfathers and their dad did. I think that's an interesting point because when you ask the question why do people do this. One reason has to be. Well they do it for the money and that the money was good and made perhaps better than what you could have made doing other things but there also seemed to be this issue of mining the association of money with people's identity the fact that mining as an occupation ran in families. Yes some people did it because it was a job. But other people did it either because they got some sort of strange. It was strangely exciting or that and the fact that maybe their uncle was a miner their dad was a miner the grandfather was a miner. There was just this sense that that's that was so much a part of them

that there was no question that that's that they were also miners. You're right about that in there with a family legacy or heritage there that we often you know forget we think. And you know there are a lot of places in our country where people do these very tough dangerous jobs. And you do find that it does run in the family lineage that they haven't done it for you know 50 years 100 years whatever. What I learned from doing the book was you know in America even today how much of a product you are by where you come from. And Kellogg Idaho if you were a teenage boy and high school you might not study too hard you might figure that hey I'm going to get a good job anyway when I'm going to get you know and go underground and I'll make you know even in 1902 they were making $50000 a year which is huge. Living with good and fun and you hit the nail on the head. The element of danger this macho subculture is definitely a part of mining. And you know these guys love being a little bit on the edge every day.

Well as I mentioned I think everyone is well aware of the fact that being a minor is one of the most dangerous occupations there is and so they certainly had to be aware every day they wanted to ground they just had to be in some part of their head. There had to be this idea that something really bad could happen and they could die. How did how did they think about that or did they really not think about that. I will tell you a lot of them did think about that and especially the women the wives all thought about it. They all thought you know if the phone rings during the day during shift it might be a bad call. So it definitely went along with the women of course the men they put up with it and there was this idea that you know I I cheated death today I made a good living and I got out a lot. Definitely that was part of the feeling. What's also made it you know the other end of the spectrum they played hard when they got out of the mine too because every day was like a celebration that you you know you worked your butt off you made a

lot of money and you risked your life a little bit. So definitely that's part of it. Our guest in this part of focus 580 is investigative journalist Greg Olsen and we are talking about the story of the. Sunshine mine disaster took place in Kellogg Idaho in May of 1900 too. It was a silver mine. A fire broke out in the mine almost half of the workers made it out. But 93 men were trapped inside and 90. One of them were killed. The story is told in his book the deep dark and is published by Crown. It's been out for a little while now if you want to read the book you had out to the bookstore and look for it here on the show also. Questions welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Well you know the book of the book obviously is is devoted to a very kind of detailed almost moment by moment account of what happened and we can only give a sort of a general sketching out of

what happened but I want to I want to do that. What what were the first signs for people in the mine that there was a problem with something. I was going nuts right there in the very beginning even with the graveyard shift coming off. They did smell a little bit of smoke that morning on May 2nd 1972 and they reported it. And whether that really went anywhere or not we don't know but probably around 11 o'clock that morning during the middle of a shift there was this the smell of smoke that some of the foreman had had went to source. They wanted to find out where the smoke was coming from. Nobody was really alarmed because you know this is a hard rock mine not a coal mine coal mines are notorious for fires obviously because coal the fuel in the burn been a hard rock mined like sunshine mine or the other mines in the Cortland mining district. But you know there's of timber there certainly last September underground you know used to break the mine and shore up the ribs and all this stuff. But there really isn't the at least does not believe the fuel source.

So when there's a fire it's usually extinguished in many cases. There's no evacuation so they look for the fire. And probably within 45 minutes of that first experience of the smelling of the smoke they were into a disaster because of a really a toxic cloud went through that mine and trapped everybody. And that's really a guess one of the sad things and one of the things that you see as as the as the disaster starts to develop at everyone and the mind seems to be asking himself that same question well what's burning. Where is this fire coming from because as you say they had this mindset that said in this kind of a mine there's nothing to burn so there's there's it's not something we need to be really concerned about because as you say because it's not a coal mine because yes there are sections of the mine that have these old timbers in them but it's wet down here so there was there was never until things got really bad.

There was not this sense of urgency right within the community even when word got out there with the fire you know. There was of course a big exodus of people from the town up to the mine to see what was going on but nobody was really worried then either they were thinking just as the men underground were thinking well it's probably a motor that caught on fire or maybe there's a shack on fire on the 30th or something it can't be that big of a deal. So definitely there was that complacency this idea that a fire in an hard rock mine was not going to do much damage or even hurt anybody. But you know if it sadly turned out to be that really the second worst a hard rock mine disaster in our country's history. And if initially they had responded differently right at the first sign of trouble could they have gotten everybody out in. Would we not now be talking about 91 men being killed. You know I do believe you know there's so many things if you read the book you know there's so many little things that could have been different. Maybe could have saved more lives with the equipment with faulty self-rescuers they used the evacuation was you know confused in

the you know it's a it's a mile underground so it takes a while to get guys out of the warning system failed or that they use this denture warning system to alert miners that there's a problem in order to get them evacuated and that didn't work so there were a lot of things but I do believe in my heart I do believe that if they had acted sooner and had evacuated sooner than we would what is safe. Probably at least maybe 50 more lives. The key to the whole thing was David and as you know is that it was the day of the shareholders meeting of all of the executives all of the top mine people were away from the mine site when a fire broke out and none of the underlings knew or felt they had the power to call for that evacuation right away. So they did kind of mess around a little bit trying to find that smoke when they really should have just sucked up the authority and said let's let these guys out now. Yeah well so eventually at some point the decision was made to evacuate the mine. Right. Why though still do we are we talking

about the number of people not being able to get out. You know when they when they evacuated the mine the whole the whole problem is you know you're you're a thousand feet down to get to one working level then another thousand feet down to get to the where the production levels are and win the Heisman in the middle of that level of the middle of the mine and when he was incapacitated due to smoke it trapped everybody that was below him and that with where a lot of the production was going on. So once they lost the Heisman at about you know the thirty seven hundred foot level they were in trouble and there was really no getting everybody out. Maybe we're jumping here to the conclusion and I don't want to know how you feel about ultimately giving too much away in the book but apparently what happened here was that there was a product a polyurethane foam that was used in a lot of mines at the time. I guess it might be much like the kind of thing that people use for insulation in their homes to prevent air infiltration. That was sprayed various places as a sealant

that was thought to be fireproof it was thought that it would not burn. Even though apparently there was some evidence even at this time from mines in Britain that in fact it would burn but that no one knows exactly how the fire got started but I guess the thinking goes that somehow whoever got started this stuff did burn and it produced a very toxic smoke and that's what it was that. And that is in conjunction with the fact that the air system in the mine really wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. Didn't take that toxic smoke out that way. That's what it was that killed these guys. Right it was the contamination of the intake outtake air system that was short circuited. So the toxic smoke that was being produced by this polyurethane foam and the other one and the wood and other things that were that were burning. What forced through the mine instead of you know exhausted from the mine and that's what really pushed I mean it. Some guy died instantly they died right where they stood I mean later when they took some

readings of the smoke and the gas if it was off the off the off the meter they could even measure it. It was so beyond the calibrations of anything they'd ever recorded. So it was deadly deadly smoke and it came through there like a tornado there's no question about that. But even so there was there were opportunities I would say where more life could have been saved if a quicker evacuation had been made or if the self rescuers which would be these hand-held mouthpieces that. Would be you know they're good for about a half an hour. And if the guys could breathe through them. If all of those were in working order perhaps some more guys could have gotten out sooner. Well that's another issue. They were the miners were provided with this kind of safety equipment that would allow them as you say to him to be able to breathe in case there was some kind of problem although it seemed that that they did they didn't work well the miners weren't trained in how to use them. And that even

if they had worked you know maybe maybe they wouldn't have been adequate to the task. The amazing thing about those self-rescuers you know sunshine mine was only one of two and Idaho that have them. They were not required in hard rock mines they were required in coal mining where you know fires are more prevalent. So it was unusual that sunshine had them but again this whole idea of not being too worried about a fire that guy you know they would they would steal these self-rescuers and use them you know spray paint their cars. They would you know mess around with them that they did they didn't respect them or care for them because they didn't think they were valuable. So the fact that sunshine had them did save a lot of lives. But many were in port shape corroded and didn't work when they really needed to. You know and one of the crucial points where you really needed to some needed to have somebody have that kind of protection was the guy who was working who was working the elevator essentially the thing that moved the miners up and. In the morning.

That's right and that you know there's a huge legacy there and I don't know if you want to get into that now what happened after the fire and how they changed things but definitely having a hoist operator or the elevator operator in a contained environment with its own air force is one of the fallout from that fire they now require that in all mines. And you're not going to have a guy die at the controls like they did last in 1972. You know I suppose if you if you want to try to find some kind of upside to the story it is as you say the number of changes were made in the way the mines operate and can it be said that this kind of mine is safer today than it was then as a result of this accident. There's no question about it. I believe many many more lives have been saved I mean those guys that died in May of 72 didn't die for nothing. They definitely you know that was the big bell ringer and changed. Hard rock mining and all of mining really to make it a safer job and it's not dangerous really if it was their other job now far more dangerous than mining.

So American mines are safer because of sunshine they have the requirement of self-rescue if it now last an hour they now have to check in check out procedures and sunshine today. No one who was underground for that made it hard to find out where they were and who was there. And now that's required and of course the oxygen and. Places of refuge in the mind should a fire break out. There are now stations that people can go to to be you know bulk at the bin and protected from the smoke which is going to be the main reason that someone might die. So there are a lot of good things that in the past and the mining and the government was all about commerce and after sunshine it became about I think the as well which was great. Well again we're almost at our midpoint here too. Just very quickly reintroduce We're talking with Greg Olsen. He's the author of seven nonfiction books he's a journalist an investigative or a reporter has been so more than two decades in his book that we're talking about here this morning is the story of the sunshine mine disaster it's titled the deep dark disaster and redemption in

America's richest silver mine is published by Crown. He's out now in bookstores. If you want to read it and questions here are welcome to 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 1. How did people on the surface the family members of the miners first get word that something really serious was going on. You know like I said they they did hear the fire. And you know it's a small town it's a small community and they're like you know everybody knows everybody or been married to somebody at a time or two. You know they're all related in some way. So when word got out there was a fire. Sometimes a little and Kampman kind of grew by the portal there. And I would say you know probably at the height of that event or two or three hundred people were waiting there. Now the company knew a lot of the guys had already died that they'd seen the bodies but they kept the focus on this rescue effort and not a body recovery effort for about nine days. So

it was tragic I mean these people were waiting they were hoping and they were praying that you know they're there that their husband their father would come out alive when in the very beginning it was you know how severe it was. And certainly there are some heroes in this story. Among the miners but there are also a lot of people who didn't exactly cover themselves with glory and the people who ran the mine were among them. Maybe you can talk a little bit about you know what about fair just criticisms that could have been made of the mine managers both those who were on the scene locally who were the mining managers right there and then those people who were running the the company those those the people who were at the corporate headquarters there would have been a long way away from from. Right the quarter you know the mine at that time was owned by outsiders people from New York which was different than the history of the mine and all within Northwest ownership and many times the owners lived in town. So it would be

with at the beginning of the time really in our country where you know out of town people were taking over little companies and running from you know a thousand miles away or 2000 miles away. So there definitely was a different feeling that people and that worked on the surface at the mine every day or you know at some level had miner's heart. They definitely understood the business. They understood the man and the dangers and the feeling of of going underground because they did every day too. But the guys outside of that the guys that you know the number crunchers and those folks back in New York I had a dog. But they were more concerned with the money and even when the mine when the fire broke out. You know several people heard the president of the time at the time you know remarked that something was going to come out of the fire like a rose because metal prices would go up but the stepdown and surance would pay for the lost production. So there was even that kind of thing going on where the people who worked there all they could think

about was you know they were going to be bearing half their town. That's that comment by the the mine president. It's just hard to fathom someone could have been that callous when we're talking about something here that could result in loss of life that they would actually be saying well you know if the mine shut down for a while that's good for the price of silver. It's it's just. Did that person actually know what was going on and and did they in their mind have at one time the fact that miners could die but also the other fact that that could be good for business. Well they did know at that time that five had died already for sure. Now whether they knew you know. That in the next 25 were already dead never going to find them. I don't know. But yeah that guy could use the media cause coaching I guess. But yeah they were that callous and they were not you know they think you know flew in on their on their airplane and you know gave their press conference and then flew away. So they certainly weren't part of the fabric of that community.

Well what about the people who were the managers who were there in Kellogg on that level. I think in the book you talk about the fact that probably they weren't local people either. They were people who were rising up through the company. This was a stop along the way of their career. So perhaps they didn't have a huge stake in that town or that mine and may indeed have somewhere in their minds had this idea that. You know I certainly don't want to do anything that's going to die it's going to cause me problems for my career that's going to go on my record after all I want to go on someplace else from here and eventually work my way up the corporate ladder did that affect their approach to dealing with the problem when it was obvious there was a problem. Yeah I think it did I think these guys who were the mine managers they were I'm thinking of Marvin chase and I want to say something about these you know maybe a little bit and that some of them but none of them were nefarious people they were you know doing what they thought was right and I don't think they made any decisions that

cost any lives or anything like that but they weren't familiar with their mind if they should have been in fact when the disaster started there were you know there was an outreach of support and lots of different mining officials came from other mines in the region and they knew the mine better than the guys that were running sunshine at that time so there was a lot of confusion. The maps were out of date. There were there was no clear you know game plan in the very first probably 48 hours of the event. So you know and I'm in a disaster not everybody's a leader. Not everybody is able to rise to that occasion to help and to rally the troops and we definitely had a nice guy. But they were not really the guys they were going to you know bust them have and get something going on. Definitely a different feel. I would say the Certainly among the miners there there were heroes and people who had gotten out and then decided to turn around and go back to try to help those people who were still in the mine. There is there anyone who stands out particularly

it's just an exceptional individual for how he conducted himself. You know I think there are so many of them I think of it you know. You know Don beaner who was a nipper which is the lowest level in the mine it's basically someone that you know carries out the of the buckets they use for toilets underground So I mean it's it's terrible. But he you know not a job anybody would want but he would he did that job and he got out of the mine. And when they were looking for a rescue crew to go in after several guys you know Donna went along and gone. You know he made a mistake. One of the guys that was coming out of the smoke one of the last guys coming out of the smoke down on Thirty one hundred level Don and the rescue party met him there. And Don took off his mask gave it to this guy to give him a shot of air and then Don succumbed and died in it becoming really the only rescue worker and Idaho history to die during an event. You know Don was a great guy and I think. Selfless

which were a lot of the guys there were everything that you know there were lots of stories of that you know leaving the sun underground and trying to go back to get him or partners you know these guys. The interesting thing about writing this book and meeting these people was to see how deeply they cared for one another. You know everything the guy that I interviewed I'm not kidding you every guy. And I thought these be the toughest old grizzled miner folk I'd ever meet. Instead they were the most tender hearted guys. They all cried. Without exception every guy cried telling me the story of what had gone on that day. So there's a lot there's a huge bond there. And I can just see I can imagine them if they told me you know standing out there feeling so helpless and doing anything they could to get back in there and get their body out and they would have done it. I think among the groups that I'm sure people in Kellogg do not feel fondly about. It's the news media because of the way that

reporters and media people conducted themselves when they came in to cover this event. How did people respond to you as a journalist even know this many years later wanting to tell this story and hoping that they would open up to you and tell you go back and tell you bought a lot of really painful stuff. Period that's interesting because when I first started it several people said oh they won't talk to you they that you know up in 172 a UPI reporter posed as a Red Cross worker to get in there and get the story and news handing out blankets but he was also secretly interviewing people in and writing stories about what was going on inside the rescue effort. That hurt a lot of people and angered them. And even 30 years later they would still talk about that journalist like he had done some terrible terrible deeds you know in order to get the story. So I thought oh you know what am I going to get. But I will tell you that if you wait long enough there are you know and nobody asked about because no one had asked about

that sunshine mind fire. I came when I felt like a hero because so many people told me they said thank God somebody cares about what happened to us. You know we hear about all these other tragedies in our country we hear about you know whatever you know the bomb exploding and in Oklahoma we hear about you know 9/11 all the things that happened but little old you know Kellogg Idaho a tiny tiny place. Suffered this huge tragedy. It was big new in 1972 and it faded away forever. So they were grateful that somebody got in there to tell their story and I will tell you that a lot of them told me things they'd kept inside for really for three decades. So I feel it's a privilege and an honor really to get a chance to go in there and get it all down before it was too late. And a lot of them you know they're in their 60s now. You said this was a this was the second worst hard rock mining disaster ever. That's right you know in terms of the number of people who were killed in fatalities right in 1979 there was

a a worse one a couple almost a couple hundred in Montana and Granite Mountain which was a shaft of fire. But and you know this is certainly you know I consider this the worst hard rock mining in modern times that's for sure. There's another sort of group here. I want to ask you about and that's the government the federal government and how it is that people from the federal gov. I responded to this and whether it was helpful or it was not. Yeah you know if there is a definitely And you know I didn't. I talked of course some people would associate with that with the present mining safety branch of the government. But then they were helpful in everything but I really focused on what the people in the town were thinking and and what do they recall and it was definitely for them and us against them type of feeling they felt like these bureaucrats at that time with the Bureau of Mines with the the agency you know that they were people who came out in the suits and they you know were afraid to go underground and they didn't

know anything about underground but they were trying to take over the rescue effort in a coffin betterness I mean there's definitely a difference between being a miner working underground and that guy that sits at a desk all day in D.C. and that's what they have. So I would say that you know Idaho is a diff. What kind of place. As you know I mean every time I don't listen and the news that some weird little story about from you know so the survivalist or whatever Idaho definitely has that kind of a place where they don't want outsiders coming in and telling them what to do. We have color here we have a couple and again I want to make sure people who are listening to it we're certainly open to questions like always. Our guest Greg Olson we're talking about his book the deep dark the story of the sunshine mine disaster took place in Kellogg Idaho in May of 1972 this was a silver mine. Ninety one miners were killed when a fire broke out in the mine. It's

a very very powerful engaging story so if you want to read it in great detail you can look for the deep dark. Otherwise here we have callers. Let's talk with one and that someone listening in Urbana. And it's line. Or two. Hello. Yes thanks for taking my call. To what extent were your informants in your investigation still conscious of the the history of Big Bill Haywood and the Western Federation of miners on the I.W.W.. Thanks for your work. Thanks. They I really focused on the more and if you'll read the story I hope and you'll see it's more focused on the campaign at the community level and what these guys and the women and the children were doing during that really 10 day period when that that after unfolded. So I didn't really get into too much of that but so that that's primarily the focus of the story was

is there a union angle to you there was there was there that they were part of the deal Workers Union is what the mining people were in Kellogg and in the hard rock mining industry and they didn't feel that you know they've been there's not at that time anyway. I would say they thought there was really no relationship with you know the steel workers and the mining folks that the job. We're too different but it was at that time that the union that they had. Well that's interesting. How was it. Maybe this is going off on a sideline but how is it that they they were in the mine. Mine Workers Union I think mine workers should be and I think that that time is I don't know I can't answer that all I know is they were with you with the Steelers. Did did the union do anything to try to help the families of those people of the survivors who had lost family members and oh yeah the union was great the union really worked hard to try to get obviously to purr to improve the safety measures of the mine and had been for you

know at least a decade before the fire. So the unit was definitely involved and you know I talk to these union guys and of course they blame the company they go and they blame the company's greedy owners you know for all that that had transpired. But the union was a very active and it's a big you know I mean labor problems within the Silver Valley which is what they call this part of Idaho that's been right for you know 50 years I mean there's been a car bomb. I mean it's been everything fell it's definitely a very active union environment and there's no question. We talked a little bit about the about what happened. About the fact that there was a fire that it wasn't the kind of thing that was really thought to be a big risk and in this kind of mind but in fact it was and that a combination of things the toxic materials that could burn and produce toxic smoke of an air handling system that wasn't doing what it was supposed to. Maybe a warning system

that didn't work to warn the man the fact that they were there provided with some safety equipment but it might not have been enough. It might not have worked very well they didn't really know exactly how to use it and might have had this very casual attitude because again going back to the issue of the kind of mind that it was they might have thought well you know there's a lot of bad things that could happen to us in this mine but a fire is not not the kind of thing we have to worry about all that stuff added together to create this problem. And we had this toxic smoke in the mine. A lot of miners were killed in a relatively short period of time. Some people were maybe killed right away they were killed right where they were didn't even have the time to even think about getting out. So a lot of people were killed and so we had this over this period of time. This this rescue effort that was going on even though the company knew that at least. Some of those miners that were down there were dead. Those two guys got out and they were there in the mine

for almost I guess almost a week for a week. Right they were there eight days underground. How did how did those two guys that survive survive those guys you know there's a lot of things you know about their survival one of them is that they were never really the right place at the right time for what could have been a tragic reason I mean the smoke was going through the mine they were down forty eight hundred level which is one of the deeper level and one of the fellow Tom Wilkinson passed out. His buddy Ron Flory carried him back to the bore hole that had been finished a week before the fire with about a thousand foot bore hole that would eventually be a shaft and it had it was bringing in some fresh air. And he took his body back there and they decided well you know this is a pretty good place to go back and get the other guys and when they went back everybody else on that level with it. So it was lucky that Tom had passed out and that Ron had carried him back and they said you know they they lived. What are they. They got

the lunch of the from the dead guys on their level and really had nothing much to do but wait. Drink water break blasting wire. They even know whittle the checkers that mean they did what they could to wait it out hoping that the guys on the surface would finally get down to them. How how does a person maintain their sanity in a situation like that maintain their optimism continue to hold on to the feeling that they're going to survive and they're going to be rescued. You know Tom I'll tell you what I think Ron was a little bit fragile there underground Rawn was sort of losing it and Tom was afraid that Ron was going to do something crazy because it a couple of points you know Vonzell I'm going to I'm going to climb out of here I'm going to you know air it we're talking climb a thousand feet. Hey you know on the flattery that are rickety of hack it's an unsafe situation for sure.

We don't know where the smoke is really coming from so I mean you don't know what you're going to be climbing into something more. But you know wrong with the term and I mean he wanted out of there and he went nuts a couple of times. But what they did was they said you know we took turns trying to keep each other up talking about you know our wives talking about girls talking about what we were going to eat when we got out. We talked about everything. And one guy would sleep the other guy would stay awake. You know they just try to you know just within their heart they knew that someday they're going to come get us. Now either they're going to get down to this level of all the silver or down here they're going to come down here are they going to get down here and time defined as dead or alive. That was the question. And it was dark. That's the other thing I mean they had one lamp between the two of them so you know I've been underground and off they do that little demonstration where you turn off your lamp and you have never seen darkness like you've seen it in the ground. The people who lost family members. What what has what has the aftermath been like for them and are there people

who were so emotionally scarred by the loss that they really truly never recovered. Yeah that's interesting I mean that I learned that you know I always tell people you know I'm I'm I'm a Baby Boomer I've been I've grown up in this era where we can be anything we want to be and we can get past whatever that we fall for. And I've learned from this experience that you know we can't not always. There are lots of people who never move past 972 just couldn't. And those are people who lost you know a husband or dad or four or three family members whatever they were that were there were many many of them lost multiple people within their family group fell. They think about it every day. They you know one woman if she took all the photographs down of every other family member in her household and stuck up her dead husband's photo everywhere and put his cap lamp and cap in her the back of her pick up and drove around I swear to God for 30 years with that thing in the backseat so that the you

know the tribute to him. And when I finished the book you know Betty Johnson I took it to her husband Gene had died he was very heroic underground he was one of those guys who sacrificed a lot to get men out. And you know I gave Betty the book and she said I hope I hope you like I think there's a tribute here in some way to what she did and she said I'm just glad I don't have to live that much longer. I'm 80 years old and I'm not going to live much longer. And I'm glad you wrote the book. But I just want to go home to him even today. There is there still a lot of anger directed towards the company. Here's the interesting thing. No because the miners were alive. You know that's one exception Betty is one that blames the mind. She doesn't blame the mine by the way for killing her husband she blamed and is angry at the mining company because they called her on the phone to say he was dead and that of coming to her house. All of the women who worked you know had a husband that worked on the ground knew there was a risk their dad had been miners to promote to them so was a cultural thing where they were all aware

of it. So when disaster struck nobody really blamed sunshine in fact very few through the mining company. Most were you know they took their $5000 and they you know tried to start a new life the many failed at that. You know married right away after the fire to try to get to a husband of a father for their children. So I mean there wasn't a lot of anger directed at the mining company because. Death The Sometimes the price of silver for these folks. How long after the disaster did it take for the mining to start operating again. About eight months. It opened up a month later in December of that year and ran until its closure in 2001. So there were a couple of times the way it came to a halt because of labor strikes but pretty much went back to business as usual. Those two guys that survived did they go back. One did one back mining the other became work for the

fourth or fifth in Idaho. They know that the Ron Florida guy who went mining he in his late 50s now probably I think close to 60 a day. But he you know he was injured badly in an auto accident after probably 10 years ago. He'd still be underground today if he could he left it. I mean he is one of those people who told me he said it was he felt of the privilege to work and underground because it was a place where few people go and you had to be a certain kind of guy to be able to put up with it. And he found some honor in that that that that was the something to be proud of. Well I think that's. Anything that would be hard for a lot of people to understand but having heard that maybe does go some way to explain why anybody would do it in the first place. Yeah you know I mean I've always thought at first I thought it was just the money because here it is people with no education making a 50000 or 60000 a year which would be what maybe a doctor might make in 1972 so they were making big money. And I

thought you know what why would they do it and I kind of know now you know I work and different companies and I know now that there's a culture underground there's the family underground. These guys are close. They you know joke and they play together and they're more brothers than probably my brother and I really are they're just it's its own world. And if you're in that and you embrace that it's probably not a bad deal. We talk about the fact that there were that at one point there were nine hundred ninety three men were trapped. These two men got out so. Ninety one died. Right. And I'm sure that a lot of people were happy to see those two guys come out. But there also were a lot of mixed feelings when people lost family members when the fact that these two guys survived and I'm sure they were. Probably people who said you know why not. Why not my husband. Why did why these guys.

David you're right about that even today people grouse about that a little bit. Why did those two guys get out my husband was a better man. I had 10 children. You know he only had one. You know why would that be I mean and I think that's been tough particularly for Rahm who Ron Flory who lives in the melter Bill what's the next town over from Kalak. He's lived there of whole life and I flare when people when he walks through town there's always that awareness from people that he got out he was one of the two. And that hasn't been easy for him I can assure you that we talked back in the first part of the show about what the thinking is about what happened. What. Maybe not the exact cause. What was the initial thing that touched off the fire. But what happened was it really that difficult to determine precisely what caused the fire. Yet Well they did it. It wasn't well that you want to know what you know here's the question everybody wants to know what touched it off and you don't seem to be concerned with that. But people do want to know you know with somebody smoking where they should have

been with. There was that Arthur and you know that with the FBI investigation and arson. There were all sorts of you know there was a guy welding not far from where they believe the fire ignited. So he could have accidentally touched it off. People do focus on that. All we can say if we you know we know what made it to that we know the polyurethane foam which was banned in Britain banned in all of Europe but used in the United States still when it should have been definitely if that is the reason it turned into a to faster there's no question about that. And just again to to sort of round us out to to go back to. One of the points you made at the beginning that there is some positive that did come out of this because it was all the mistakes that had been made all the things that were wrong it was a great case study of what not to do. And as a result changes were made and it is safer now to be a minor than it was before the before May of

1972. There's no question about that all of those changes the improvement and safety training I mean safety there are competitions every year now all throughout the mining industry coal and hard rock where they're you know where guys are challenged to show that they know the best and procedures and they're there. And then an excellent responders in the event of a catastrophe there with a lot of problems with sunshine mine because people weren't trained that way. So that's another legacy of the self-rescuers to compartmentalise oyster and all of that stuff is great. I think that you know there's a I think there's a tragedy going on now in other part of the world in China where every day there are and I'm not kidding you every day. It's it's yeah you think being a miner is dangerous anyplace in China. It's the one place you don't want to be a miner it's it's incredibly dangerous hundreds have died this year alone and they continue to die.

And there's so much we know in America about and Europe you know I mean the Brits really wrote the book on mine safety but all of these you know measures that we have it's the first time we can't get the rest of the world to follow them because the a lot of lives have been lost for the very same reason. There were a lot of 72 and sunshine mine. Well it's a very dramatic story particularly the description of what how the disaster developed what happens what was going on underground. I think you get a real good feeling for for what it would've been like. And it sounds like you wouldn't want to work underground. I don't think so. I think I'll find some other line of work for myself. A great one thank you very much for talking with us. All right thanks Dave. Thanks for having me on. Greg Olsen is the author of The Book of the deep dark disaster and redemption in America's richest silver mine is published by Crown.