Focus 580; Sharing the Land of Canaan: Human Rights and the Israeli-palestinian Struggle

On this program this first hour of the program we will return to a subject that we have talked about many times before and that is the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians we have tried to have guests on the program to represent different perspectives particularly when there has been someone here in Champaign-Urbana that has been brought here to speak. And we've tried to take advantage of those opportunities and we can and we're doing that here this morning as we talk with Palestinian American political activist miles and come see it in a book that he's authored titled sharing the land of Canaan he writes that there is no more compelling story with more international ramifications than this conflict that between Israel and the Palestinians. He says that it is a conflict that often has been reduced to simple statements about religion and violence and that some people have concluded that it was something that simply cannot be solved. He certainly disagrees with that he argues there is a way forward and will get some of his thoughts this morning on the program. Let me tell you just a little bit about him he was born and raised on the outskirts of Bethlehem was educated both in the Middle

East and the United States. He has a master's degree from University of Connecticut and a Ph.D. from Texas Tech University also did post-doctoral training at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital and the University of Tennessee and he has by his same scientific training a geneticist. He also though for the past 15 years or so has been involved in political issues and has done a lot of speaking and writing he's published many op ed pieces and has appeared in various national publications like The Washington Post and The New York Times has been interviewed on CNBC and C-SPAN. He's also published many scientific papers in areas ranging from zoology to genetics and as I mentioned is the author of the book sharing the land of Canaan human rights and the Israeli Palestinian struggle and it is published by Pluto Press so you can look for that book and the questions here on the program are welcome as always. If you'd like to call in 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have a toll free

line good anywhere that you can hear us. And that is eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5 so people are certainly welcome to call the only thing we have to callers is that people try to be brief and we ask that so we can get in as many as possible and keep things moving along and I also our guest here this morning will be giving a couple talks here in the in the area in Champaign Urbana and a little bit later on the program I'll give you the information so if you would like to go and hear from him you can do that. Well thanks very much for being here. Thank you very much for having me. As I mentioned your academic training is in science and you worked as a scientist and are still I believe at Yale. No I actually I got to tell you I have a private lab that we have on the testing. All right well formally has been it has taught at Yale. And in the book I hear I think that you mentioned that. Maybe that you've only really been intensely involved politically involved maybe for about 15 years or so. What was it

that led you at the point that you did to want to be involved in this issue politically. In 1988 in 89 there was a Palestinian uprising in my town but Sahota which is the shepherd's field where the shepherd saw this thought one thought to Bethlehem was engaged in the tax revolt and nonviolent resistance to the Israeli occupation. And I was in the U.S. that time in the media here as they are still today they express basically they show ISSUES only when there is violence and they chose not to show the nonviolent resistance of this town. A biblical town basically in and the media was rather silent on this issue and the Israeli army had come with 44 tanks that rounded the town. And then sent in over one hundred twenty three arcs which basically pillaged the town of everything valuable including cars and TVs and so forth and the media here was silent and that got me very interested. In speaking to the media

and talking about these issues publicly in the US which before that time I was not very actively involved. Well that raises a question because I think that often the criticism of the Palestinian movement is made and admittedly this is painting with a very broad brush that they have used violent methods and people have raised this question why is there not some sort of a more nonviolent civil disobedience kind of movement and from time to time weve talked about there in this program and sometimes people have said well they just think that there just is no there is no such tradition. In the Middle East can you talk about that is there in fact a lot of nonviolent political action going on like call anti-colonial anti settler activities whether it's in South Africa or whether it's the Native Americans here. The majority of violence in all these situations are nonviolence also in Pakistan the majority of resistance is nonviolent. Of course the oppressors

the colonial people always want to emphasize the tail of the curve of resistance which is always a bell shaped care of that tail that is violent and also the tail that's extremely violent and that affects civilians and Native Americans versus white European settlers. There were massacres on both sides but what we had about is not the nonviolent resistance of the Native Americans but what we had about is how the Native Americans are savages how they attacked those white beautiful settlers. And that's what the settlers would like always to show the world basically. And in South Africa the same thing. Apartheid the regime in South Africa was more interested in showing the world the necklacing putting the rubber tires on people burning them alive. That's the image that they want the world to see and that's the image that's presented in the U.S. media unfortunately it is not showing the much larger ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of the resistance that's non violent which is ignored in the media here as I said with my own story with my town a bit Sahota just over

15 16 years ago. Are there particular cases where you would point to non-followers political action that you thought was actually political particularly effective and again perhaps hasn't gotten a lot of attention. Well you know the nonviolent action works when the media covers it and the media and the US has not covered in the media and Europe has covered and that's why the public in Europe has changed in its special sections of the Middle East. And I think that's where I see some effective nonviolent resistance for example about the wall there has been a lot of nonviolent resistance to the war. There has been a lot of coverage in the European media about that just like there is coverage was coverage of nonviolent resistance in South Africa which changed a lot of the perceptions of people in Europe and that's why the European countries are much more open to to the reality of what's going on on the ground than many in the U.S. media. I think also in the minds of a lot of people it's perhaps not just enough that there be a nonviolent component to the

Palestinian movement but also that there be a more vocal condemnation of violence. What do you say about that. Well I mean in general what you see again you have a bell shaped curve of resistance in the situation of violence that's from the occupied the directed against the occupiers against the settler state that violates human rights. That tale of resistance like any says that this solution with tell you can condemn it you can cut it off. They will really normalize. But the violent resistance from the occupation and from in this case from Israel directed against the Palestinian people has not been condemned and I look for Israeli apologists and the Zionist movement in the U.S. to ever show me any incidents where they condemned human rights violations of the Israeli army which are far far more damaging to the Palestinian civilian population than the other way around. As I said in all these situations there are always civilians that are killed. The question is not condemning that of course everybody

condemns I condemn it everybody condemns it the question is what to do about it and I and my book I look forward to. Addressing as we call it in the medical field the theology of the disease not the symptoms of the disease and the violence is simply a symptom of the disease not the theology. The underlying fact that it is used if somebody has cancer you know they get symptoms like skin rash or headache and you can give them a mess but it can make him feel better but unless you have chemotherapy and radiation therapy or not going to cure that. This is certainly is a conflict that have been going on for a long time. And from time to time either there are periods that seem particularly bad or there are times when people are optimistic and they say because of particular developments they think you know perhaps there's some there's a possibility of getting this thing resolved. And at the time that Yasser Arafat died people said well now here this is an important possibility a chance to take a new beginning. We go on from there. We have the

the leadership of the Israeli government the prime minister talking about withdraw from Gaza some people think that that is an important move and yet. There doesn't really seem to be a lot of dramatic progress and as much as people talk about the possibility of going forward and about there being peace it is at the at the moment it seems hard to find anything to grab onto that would make one feel particularly optimistic. Where do you think that things stand now. The International articulated very well why peace process is failed. They said the reason all slaw Accords and other peace processes failed is because they ignore human rights and so far every peace process proposed by America. And of course written by many in the Zionists and the US administration have failed to address human rights human rights such as the right of refugees to return to their homes and lands. Unless you put human rights at the center of the peace process you are going to have what I call pacification rather than

simply a process a durable peace process that leads to a durable and lasting peace. It will be passive geisha it will be a kind of a love between the fighting so to speak and that's and I think Amnesty is correct in that unless we put human rights and international law at the center of the equation then we are going to always fall into the same trap of trying to pacify the native people rather than talking about the real peace that's durable sequiter will that treats people equally regardless whether they are Jews Christians or Muslims who live in that land. Do you think that is significant in the decision or at least the intentions stated by Mr. Sharon to withdraw settlers from Gaza. Well Mr. Sharon's. Right time man dove wise glass explained about this quote what the single agent from Gaza. They don't use the word withdrawal they use the word the single agent and the voice glass argued that the reason for doing that

is in his words to put the peace process in formaldehyde in other words to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state that's viable That's sovereign that's independent and keep prolonging and indeed that's what they got they got from the US to prolong of the process than they got from the Bush administration. All sorts of promises about the refugees having no right to return to their homes and learns about the said the moments in the West Bank being retained and so forth and so on. The reality of it that's just again you know just best if a Geisha rather than. A peace process that's based on human rights and international law which are very clear if you want to look at human rights and international law is one for the question and I have some callers here want to get to you touch on one of the things that I think a lot of people's minds as well is an important and also very difficult issue and that is the right of return. Is it that you're arguing and other Palestinians argue that when when and if this new Palestinian state is established that any Palestinian living any place else in the world should be able

to go there and live there. Well some national law and basic like they invest in the Creation of human rights are very clear about the rights of refugees to return to their homes and lands. This is an inalienable right that's recognized by every international covenant by every international organization and also by U.N. General Assembly and the United Nations Security Council resolutions. So refugees have a right to return to their homes and nuns Christian and Muslim refugees. Now it doesn't make sense to say that any Jew and I mean convert to Judaism in the world can go live on Palestinian land and become an automatic citizen of the state of Israel where there's a Palestinian who was born and raised that and their children cannot go back simply because they are not Jewish they are either Christian or Muslim. That makes sense and I think that's that's what human rights and I'm going to see international human rights watch every single human rights organization said you have to put that at the center of the equation.

Maybe let me again just ask if the cause will bear with me one one for that make one for the point. And as as you write in the book that a lot of people would like to reduce this conflict to a matter of religion and say that essentially what we have here is Jews pitted against Muslims Well you're not a Muslim you're Christian. How do how do Palestinian Christians play into this when and I guess I'm interested in what your experience as a Palestinian Christian has been. I mean the Zionist program starting with been Gorean inherited in many of those folks were secular Jews who did not really believe in religion many of them actually despised religious Jews. It was never really a religious thing for them to start this program of removing Palestinians from their lands. 538 best thing in villages were removed ethnically cleanse between 1947 to 1949. To them it was never about the religion. And many of these villages were Palestinian Christian villages and they never distinguish

between a Christian and a Muslim as long as they are native Palestinians. They were in the way and had to be removed and I think that's they didn't distinguish between us as better seen Christians and between Palestinian Muslims that 3000 us equally. And of course even they also three said many Jews with contempt like Sephardic Jews and others who were oppressed in this group with it gives them the early parts of the establishment of the state to reside. So I think you know the idea of it has to do with religion is just an idea that was developed post de facto to kind of justify continuing the process as Osama bin Laden uses religion there are many people really is that outages the crusade that was used that are legend they just adore is used in Christianity and so on. We have some callers We'll get to them in just a moment let me introduce Again our guest We're talking with Maz and come see he is plus 20 an American political activist he is involved or has been involved a number of organizations. He's

co-founder of the Palestinian right to return coalition. He appears often in print ads and also has been interviewed on the broadcast outlets. He has said trained as a scientist was on the faculty of Yale genetics his area he's also one of the founders of the Middle East genetics Association. He's the author of a book sharing the land of Canaan human rights and the Israeli-Palestinian struggle and he is here visiting and the campus to talk and questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5 we have some callers and we'll start with someone on the campus and line one. Well yeah I just wanted to call in support of what you said earlier when when you said that in Europe they get different media coverage and I often listen to one of the cable channels here which broadcasts a network called scolar which is newscasts

from other countries. And a good example of what you're talking about is about two or three weeks ago when those three quote teenagers unquote were shot and they're playing in a field apparently in the United States. They just said three teenagers were shot but on Scola you could see actual blood. It's being put into an ambulance. At most they were middle school workers. So calling them teenagers is really a stretch and to them at least we're shy. No other marks on them but there had been pitched and bloodied. So I really I really think what you said is absolutely correct and and it's really I mean do you think you're all right. Don't you want to comment on that at all. There's a there's a group in America called If Americans Knew they have a website if Americans knew dot org which actually analyzes media covers the US the report

which was issued this week actually is about the New York Times coverage of children's deaths among Palestinians. And it turns out that the New York Times covered Israeli children's death at the rate of about 4 to 1 of pettish thing in children's death in front page and headline coverage. And that's just that are you know him in this is to this to go live today dead of the New York Times coverage in The New York Times as. Many people know is the liberal magazine it's not even like a conservative or a right wing magazine so I think yes in many ways the U.S. public is being cheated and that a lot of radio stations like this one and many others a do in fairly decent job of presenting different perspectives and I think people need to start looking for alternative media including on the Internet as this gentleman said in European media and other places. Let's talk with someone else on our line number four. Hello. Yes go ahead.

I'd like to ask Mr. Cumshaw Yeah about 500 villages that they emptied in the early years of occupation of Israel in Palestine. Are there people living in those villages. The Between 1947 and 1949 over a two year period about three quarters of the Palestinians who lived in the area that became the state of Israel were removed from that land. Half of those refugees were created actually before May 1948 when the state of Israel was created in the Arab armies intervened as you had historically. The mythology was that that about me came and told the refugees to leave. As I said the reality is that half the refugees have already been kicked out. Before that our armies intervened as are you historians now analyze the history of this process. As far as the villages now most of these villages are empty and Israel is even do not cultivate these lands because the Kibbutz Movement to this site is bankrupt. Basic Israel is now a heavily

industrialized society dependent mostly on military and other technological manufacturing skills and so wants to be some images. Lines are still empty. Besides this 530 Palestinian villages that were removed there were 200 plus additional villages that remained and of those 100 is considered by Israeli law to be unrecognized villages they do not recognize them even though they remain inside the state of Israel and they say they are citizens who still live there. Israeli citizens they can vote but but they are not recognized they don't get municipal services they don't get water they don't get headaches thirsty they don't get schools. That's just the reality of the remaining one quarter of the population that they remained in Palestine which became the state of Israel in 1949. Does that get at your question caller. Yeah. Then I kind of revert back to maybe what would be good in that country would be a one state solution with equal rights for

everybody. I mean in my book I was criticized by both Israelis and Palestinians in my book because I'm a Post national. I do not believe in nationalism I do not believe in these concepts of countries waving flags and putting borders to separate themselves from other countries. I think Europe is already illustrating that with dissolving its borders across the continent and they realize that nationalism given them by both world water and second world war. So yes in many ways I do not argue that we need the Palestinian state or in that sense a Jewish state that's separate from a pet or Syrian state but we need the state or changing Ashwin of the state but changing the concept. Of nationalism to a concept of citizenship where citizens are free through the equally regardless of that allegiance and have the same rights then the laws apply to all of them so as I said that early on in the talk in the conversation that a Palestinian refugee can return to his home and learn

should be able to return to his homeland and theirs. You know what it is. You cannot say that they can't while anybody who converts to Judaism or who is Jewish and American anywhere else has automatic rights to citizenship in a state like the state of Israel and live on Palestinian land. Thank you. It's it seems pretty hard to believe even if you could get a majority of Palestinians to agree to such an idea that is really what amounts to a one state solution as opposed to what we have always talked about is a two state solution. It seems hard to believe you get a majority of Israelis to agree to the same thing particularly if right of return ones included because their fear would be that if that happened given demographics the chances were pretty good that you'd end up with a state where Jews were actually and Israelis were actually a minority. Yeah we used to say the same thing in South Africa. The majority of white South Africans would never agree to a one state solution because the blacks would be a majority and there would be big problems of course what ended up happening in South Africa is that the whites

maintain economic control and economic superiority and actually are doing much better now under removal of the apartheid regime than they did when the apartheid regime order in place in South Africa was subjected to sanctions and boycotts and already was seen. We see the same parallels and the same trends developing with boycotts and divestments evolving against Israel and against Israeli companies and companies that invest in Israel and I think eventually many Israeli Jews like many white South Africans. I realize that this is what what the trend is going to go on there realize that that's what's going to happen. And it evolved peacefully without much bloodshed as many had predicted including me by the way I had thought that in South Africa those people kill each other but the reality is peacefully and I hope and I thrashed and I truly believe that it can happen the same way with Palestine and Israel in the same situation not. I mean if apartheid was a problem in South Africa why would we think

it's a solution Israel Palestine. Segregation then a kid in the United States it shouldn't be expected to work in Israel Palestine. Well supposing just for a moment we stay with the idea of the two state solution. The problem I think a lot of Palestinians have with the proposals for a Palestinian state that has been made is that they make the argument that it's not a viable state. What in your mind supposing that we were going to do that say say even if we're going to argue that was some sort of intermediate stage maybe we could move to the part where you would like to be but in the meantime say maybe we're going to do this. Well in your mind what would constitute a viable state for Palestinians. What would it what would it have to look like. I think that's an excellent question and I I really I'm not against a two state solution if the two states are based on human rights and both states where the people are treated equally and where they have a viable condition where they control their natural

resources their control their air space they are able to move freely within those states that are able to move outside of those states as they like. The reality of it that that's Israel has never accepted that and will never accept it and it will be very difficult to remove 450000 settlers from the West Bank and Gaza which is an area only 22 percent of Palestine even that 22 percent which is marginally viable. How are you going to remove 450000 settlers and what's going to happen to the water resources Israel now controls 80 percent of the water resources of the West Bank in Gaza and they're not going to give that up. Even the left wing in Israel like the Geneva Accords that people have talked about left the water issue aside because they could not really figure out what to do with that. I'm a biologist I can tell you environmentally and biologically and the way society sustainable environments develop. It would be very very difficult to have two states

that are Southern and independent in this one contiguous territory called Palestine slashes right. So I think and I discussed this in detail in my book in terms of sustainability and future development and economic things and even for Israeli Jews I think economically it would be very damaging to have a separate independent Palestinian state for the precious thing is it would be very damaging. It would not be in the best interest of people in the Mideast regardless of whether they are Israeli Jews Israeli Arabs so-called Israeli Arabs but are seen as living within the state of Israel or Palestinians in the West Bank or people who moved into areas like East Jerusalem who are Jewish. Well a bit past our midpoint we have some other callers have a good tune Right in just a moment but I do want to introduce Again our guest for anybody who might have to have been here last a little bit. We're talking with Dr. Maz and come see us. He is a Palestinian-American political activist has been involved with starting a lot of grassroots groups that have to do

with the Mideast conflict including Palestinian right to return coalition the Holy Land Conservation Foundation academics for justice and also the Middle East genetics Association he is by his training his academic training scientist and with degrees from University of Connecticut and Texas Tech he also did post doctoral training at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital and the University of Tennessee. He appears frequently in media in the U.S. the Middle East. If you'd like to read some of his ideas on the Middle East you can look for a book that he's authored titled sharing the land of Canaan human rights and the Israeli-Palestinian struggle it's published by Pluto Press and came out last year. There will if you're here in and around Champaign-Urbana where we are you would have an opportunity couple of opportunities to hear him speak and I do want to mention those he will be talking this afternoon at 3 o'clock about the Palestinian right of return. And this would be at the line our union on the unified campus that's in the room for 0 7 and then he'll be talking also about

the issues he has some of the same issues that we've been talking about at a talk at the university YMCA at Wright and Chalmers in the latter HALL That's also on the UVA campus. And that's tonight at seven thirty. So those opportunities are there if you'd like to hear more from him questions here a welcome to 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. We have several callers here. Starting out with line 1 and someone in Charleston. Well you know if you are mommy The Poetics think up stuff. Protestant to talk about the Lord give us and the Lord taketh away. In my opinion the whole question of the Middle East will not be resolved until the U.S. abandons Israel when the US abandons Israel it will it will fade away to nothing just as it came from nothing in 1948 to much to the dismay of

Palestine which is an international crime which should not have happened. But those who had lived there for millennium and suddenly had this super imposed upon them live upon themselves. This outside influence orchestrated by the West in England in the form of Israel. So that's my opinion. Right what you think of that. But when you ask not for their use for the state of Israel was not the first time. Well the the official position of the United States has been for a long time it certainly recognizes the right of Israel to exist and has supported Israel in various sorts of ways do. Do you think that the fact that the United States government has long had that position is that. Is that any impediment to solving the problem that we've been talking about or is that not that. It doesn't really influence it one way or another.

I think people couldn't you know couldn't make it make a mixture between people and their governments. I certainly you know do not want the U.S. to abandon Israel. I think there's already people like any other people deserve dignity and human rights like the Palestinian people like everybody else. And I think as far as a U.S. government of support for Israel for Israeli government and including the human rights abuses that there's a government that engages in that has been a long tradition in the U.S. Congress of supporting Israel that goes back to the time of Truman when he decided to support the establishment of a state of Israel against the advisers that advised him otherwise and against many intellectuals Jews including Albert Einstein and Sigmund Freud and many others who were against the proposition of a separation of political of severity that's called the state of Israel on purpose thing in London. But that's a separate issue and I want to spend too much time on it. But the reality of U.S. support for Israel is actually nothing to

show support for the people of Israel because 30 percent of Israeli children are living below the poverty line today. While Ariel Sharon is building a wall that's costing billions of dollars and that's basically leaving Palestinians and in ghettos of shrinking lands and creating the formant for future instability and future violence that will affect everybody in the Mideast. So in my view the U.S. government if you ask me what is the role of the U.S. government the U.S. government is the biggest obstacle to peace in the Middle East. In fact more an obstacle to peace in the Middle East than there's a government. There's a book by by Norm Chomsky called the fateful triangle that talks about the U.S. role in the Mideast. There's a book by the CFR Henri that's titled this on a spiral cutter that people could look up their many books on the U.S. role in the Middle East. That explains why the U.S. is really against peace based on human rights and international law in the Middle East. The U.S. is not an honest broker in the U.S. government has never

been interested in peace in the Middle East and there's plenty of evidence to support that. Let's talk with some of the callers we have some here in our ballot next is lie number two. Hello. Hi I have question for Professor conceit which is just my belief. There are some strong parallels between the occupation in Tulsa time and the occupation you know Ach and not only other strong parallels but the two phenomena are very closely linked. Could you comment on that professor. Yes I mean the reason we went to Iraq the the real reason not that Eason is that the administration gave us about weapons of mass destruction about terrorism which are now known to be lies since there is no links between Saddam Hussein and between 9/11 or any of that stuff as as a purported than as a publicized and also the issue

of weapons of mass destruction which turned out to be a distraction a lie. The real reasons that we went to Iraq is us think it is very well by the architects of this war people like Richard Perle like Paul Wolfowitz like Douglas faith. Like Cheney and others who wrote about these things in 1996 97 98 well before September 11 and they argued that parts of the reason is to control the faucet of oil. And it fits very well with our strategic interest with Israel and bringing Israeli interests and American interests closer together. They articulated this very well in documents like projects for a New American Century like the document that Richard Perle and company sent an attorney Yahoo. Which is about you know strengthening Israel basically and that's these people have articulated in this in fact chillingly in the project for New American Century.

These same folks said that it would be hard to sell the American public on the water for preemptive water like this to control these natural resources. And then they added you know it would take years to convince the American public and then chillingly they added it might be easier the words they use save for a better harbor like event. This is 1997 98 other words if we get a paddle harbor like event it would be easier to convince the American public to support this preemptive kind of attack. Germany of U.S. and Israeli interests in the Middle East. Does that call as I get your question very well thank you. All right let's go on to line 3. This is also someone listenings morning in Urbana. Hello. Yes or what would be your opinion of a third city. I personally would like to be in a city with about five ten thousand peaceful Israelis and five and ten thousand peaceful Palestinians. And if they would take

that money and use it to try and build something that you'd certainly get international attention. There are so many of us who would love to see a peaceful Palestinian Israeli hybrid if necessary with an international protectorate because it is a powder keg and because I think it didn't it has something to do in the same cloth and yarn as the 9/11 event. Right. I would there just to write to your congressman and senator and say You guys are sending three to six billion dollars every year to the state of Israel was sent to the state of Israel more money than what we sent to South America Central America and sub-Saharan Africa combined. I would suggest you write to your congressman and say Congressman you know I know you know you have all this money to send since our schools are flush with money and if you want to send 3 billion dollars to Israel why not then take it at least a few millions of those three billion to

build these cities to have integration to have joint schools instead of schools for Jewish children schools for Palestinian children. Why not get some of that money to build joint schools joint cities joint projects and see what they respond to you see see how that flies with our Congress which is you know influenced by the Israeli lobby I think it's important that the average American gets engaged and suggests ideas like that I mean the biggest thing about governments is they want you not to be engaged they don't want you to be a citizen with the opinion they want you to be a consumer just by products. And if you are a citizen and engage they think that you are treading on their territory of which you should just give them the right to do whatever they want to with your money and your taxes. So I agree with you in many ways. Thank you. You think that you think it's possible that you could get together a reasonably sized city or an area of territory with mixed Israeli Palestinian

population and have that be prosperous and everybody get along and do that as a demonstration project of what. What a one state solution might look like. Yes why not. I mean there are many is their use I mean I can on my website which is just my last name come see a lot of people can find lots of resources lots of ideas there's about 50 or 100 Israeli and Jewish groups that list the NY website that deal with human rights that many Palestinian groups that deal with human rights and talk about the kinds of things that we do. We have an association now called association for one democratic state in Israel Palestine where it's headquartered in Geneva. Actually I was just elected president of this association and we are getting many Israelis to join many Palestinians to join we are working together. There are groups like the Committee Against home demolitions. That includes Israelis and Palestinians that go prevent to stop home the relations by the Israeli army. There are thousands of Israeli soldiers who are refusing to

serve in the army. There are many people who are engaged on all sides who are engaged genuinely in one thing peace and justice for. For that part of the world I think we have to engage with all these people and we have to get them involved in the process and we have to put our money and our resources and our actions where our mouth is and not just say well they have to do something. What is it that we as American citizens have to do because our it's our response it's our money. Every time Israel bombs a Palestinian refugee camp they use American weapons with American money. So we've got to get involved I mean the bulldozer that killed the Rachel Corrie an American student in Rafa as she was trying to prevent the demolition of a Paris thing home was a caterpillar bulldozer made in America and paid for by our taxes so it is our responsibility. We have about 15 minutes left in this part of focus 580 just again let me introduce our guest. He's Palestinian American political activist he appears frequently in the media in the U.S. the

Middle East is here visiting in Champaign-Urbana will give a couple of talks one this afternoon one tonight and again before we finish up here this hour I'll mention that The Times and the locations He's also author of the book sharing the land of Canaan human rights and the Israeli-Palestinian struggle is published by the Pluto Press. I think that in the past there has been a lot of criticism of the Palestinian political leadership. Some of that coming from Palestinians who complained that it had been any effective corrupt and also unable to for those people who are interested in a nonviolent kind of solution had been really able to have much exercised much control over those elements who were interested in using violence do. How do you think that Mahmoud Abbas the Palestinian current Palestinian president has done on those three fronts. Yeah I mean I criticized the Palestinian Authority actually on a TV station in

Bethlehem in my last visit about a year and a half ago. I went there and actually my second to last resort I went back again about a month and a half ago. But about a year and a half ago I wasn't on TV in Palestine and I criticized the Palestinian Authority any or satisfied he was alive. And I explained why are criticizing him because he is authoritarian he was authoritarian and that the movement has really abandoned the Palestinian cause by agreeing to a peace process that excludes human rights. And I think there was the biggest problem with the Palestinian Authority and in the way it reminded me of Chief Patel Asia and South Africa who agreed also to solutions that involve the African and South Africa with the white majority minority that deal with just having a state flag passports but not really with solving the human rights violations that were rampant on that our past tide and Amnesty International as I said said that all slaughter courts violated human

rights and that's why they failed. And I think if people look at it from that way I look at what I did which is actually of Mahmoud Abbas's he was the one who was negotiating all slow is they sold out the Palestinian cause they sold out the cause of human rights and in the process they also harmed long term interests of his raise on Palestinian not just devastating it's you know you just I'm interested you make this parallel between the Zulu leader gets a bit lazy and in South Africa and Yasser Arafat I think a lot of people in the pre apartheid area were extremely courteous critical of Buthelezi for being much too cooperative with the government and I suppose that I would guess there would be people in the African National Congress who would have said that he was a traitor to their cause. Do you think that that would you go as far as to say that about Yasser Arafat. Well I mean Professor Edward say that Columbia University wrote the book about the subject where he where he entered lives that far in detail all slow and beyond the book is called and

it discusses basically all the failings of us out of five and all his hose issues and actually his book was banned in the north already at one point. But that's I mean that's the reality is as other fattened without bias have decided to go with the powers to be which is the U.S. government and Israel and to play on the balance of power and say well if the USA is demonic they control the situation. I have to play by their rules I cannot resist them. No I don't. There is one point which was with Camp David after he basically gave up just about everything. The last step he kind of balk at it. He was in my opinion especially as on a probationary period which expired for him and the probationary period was whether he would be able to become like King Abdullah of Jordan which is a puppet of the U.S. or King or Hosni Mubarak of Egypt.

Those guys are puppets of the U.S. who. US foreign policy in the Mideast which is how demonic Kennon supposed to reside. And if he was going to set of those leaders that he was going to stay in power and if he wasn't he was going to be isolated and shunned and maybe even killed. So the thirst just that he had a few people could read more about this and other books and literature I could send people links about this. Well given that given the fact that the Palestinians do have these two major powers to contend with that the United States and Israel. Is there an alternative. You you were talking critically about our father Mahmoud Abbas saying well look we have we do have these two hedge money powers and either we work with them or we got nothing. Is there actually an alternative if if you if the problem is Palestinians come along and say well we're really not. We're really not going to work with the United States and with the government of Israel. Right. Well I mean there's an issue of morality and if you abandon your morality and you abandon

human rights then I don't know it's worth to have a Palestinian state I don't want a Palestinian state that abandons morality and human rights. But even in a practical sense I mean the USA US and Israel are demonic and they have a lot of power. But things change you know policies change and we look at the history of the Roman Empire we look at all these things change and we look at the dynamics of the situation now and we see it changing I mean one in the United Nations just a few weeks ago there was a vote one hundred fifty six countries voted in support of the Palestinian positions and the US and Israel both against I think joined by three great empires the Marshall Islands of Micronesia how three islands dependent on the US. So we already see there is an isolation of the U.S. and Israel position into Russia. We see the Europeans standing up with see we see that evolution is changing the face of. Democracy in Venezuela and Brazil and other countries that are standing up to the United States have demonic power in the world and we see the

American public also more important in the American public is standing up millions were on the streets against the war in Iraq and in support the better thing of human rights. So I think things are changing and they will change and I'm very optimistic that this country will change and Israel will change. I think I am very upset with him very sure this will happen within the next 5 to 10 years. We talk we're coming down the point. Unfortunately just a couple minutes left in one of the things we talked about earlier was one of the of the very difficult points again going back if we're if we assuming that we're going to do a two state solution one of the difficult points in the negotiations between the two sides is the right of return. Something else that we really haven't touched on but I guess I'm interested in having a talk about for a minute or two is Jerusalem and the future of the city. Again a point where it seems that the two sides have had positions that are just mutually exclusive. One with them in the Israeli side insisting that Jerusalem will continue to be essentially controlled by Israel and on the other side at least in the past it has been the

mere assertion from the Palestinian side that it ought to be a Palestinian essentially a Palestinian administered city. I mean I think those of them would not be too difficult the problem to solve if we base it on human rights and the rights of the people of Jerusalem to live in dignity and equality within the city and it is one city you cannot really say well it's this city and half a city here and half a city there. But you cannot also say Jerusalem must remain under Israeli sovereignty. You cannot also say that terrorism must be quote unquote an Arab Islamic city and by the same token tourism is a shared city it's holy to three face and and it has holy sites of three major religions Islam Christianity and Judaism. And there are ways to allow access to allow freedom of movement and to have the city not solve anything of particular kindly. I mean in fact they're not the nation of Partition resolution in 1947 so that would be an international city

and that still is a valid recommendation it's not that or a solution that's implementable but it's a valid the recommendation of a general assembly resolution So there's ways to move around that issue. The question is whether there's the will and as long as Israel gets billions of dollars of money and support military and also by vetoes in the United States and the United Nations then obvious Israel has no incentive to compromise on this issue. Well I think that we are going to have to leave it at this point because we have just used our time and I want to say again that our guest this morning Moslem siya a Palestinian American political activist. He's here he's traveling around the country speaking about this issue and is spending some time here in Champaign-Urbana. And if you would like to hear more from him he'll be talking on the Palestinian right of return. At 3 o'clock this afternoon this is at the line our union on the U of I campus on Green Street. And then also we'll be talking tonight

on the subject witness to occupation witness for peace deep inside Iraq and Palestine. And this is a talk that takes place at the university YMCA on right at Brighton charmers inlets where all this is also on the campus that's tonight at 7:30. And if you're interested also he is the author of the book sharing the land of Canaan human rights and the Israeli-Palestinian struggle published by Pluto Press the book came out last year. And I do again want to mention that you know over time we have tried to perspire present a number of perspectives on this issue from different people with different ideas particularly when they were here and we had some access to them and were pleased to have Dr. come siya on the program and we'll continue to do this when we get the opportunity. And if people have ideas on how they'd like us to be discussing this we're certainly open to them. Thank you very much for being here. Thank you for having us.