Focus 580; Literacy: The Teaching of Writing

Good morning and welcome to focus 580. This is our talk show for the morning. My name is David Inge. Glad to have you with us on the program today. We will be doing another in a series of shows that we have been doing going back to last fall looking at various aspects of literacy. It's something that we're doing in partnership with the National Council of Teachers of English a national organization that's based in Urbana. If you're interested by the way in finding out about the council and what they do and you have access to the Internet you can go to their website which is w w w dot and c t dot o r g. Our guest this morning is Dr. Katie Ray. She is a full time writer and researcher on the teaching writing. She's particularly interested in the study of writing craft. She leads teacher workshops and institutes across the country related to the teaching of writing. She has been both in elementary and middle school teacher and spent two years as a staff developer at the reading and writing project at Teachers College at Columbia University. She's also the author or co-author of

four books on the teaching of writing and among other things this morning we'll be talking about how to read like a writer. And if your first reaction is what exactly does that mean. Stick around and well. About as of course we talk here as always questions from people who are listening are welcome. If you're here in Champaign-Urbana where we are the number is 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us. First of all of course if you're listening over the air around Illinois and Indiana but if you might happen to be listening on the Internet and you're in the United States you may use the toll free line that's eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5. So again it's three three three W which probably does not make it any easier. Three three three W I L L and toll free 800. Two two two. Wy Allan. Dr. Ray Hello.

Good morning. Thanks for talking with us. Of all the things that one might think one might teach I guess I'm curious maybe to start out with what particularly caused you to gravitate toward writing and teaching writing. Well I've when I had my first teaching job you know I was charged with with teaching writing reading and writing I was a language arts teacher and well what at the time was a junior high now mostly their own more middle school concept it was a junior high school teaching seventh and eighth grade language arts and and realize I was it's teach reading and writing and I really had not had any very specific training in in teaching writing in my teacher preparation program. I was an English major in college and you know I thought I was going to be a high school English teacher but I got a job instead teaching seventh grade and so I really started out not knowing much at all about about what to do to teach writing. And then I guess in the second year that I was teaching I had to began to take classes working towards a

Master's in the evening. And one of the very first courses I took at Clemson University was a language arts course and we read. What at the time was a brand new book by Nancy Attwell called in the middle. That was all about reading the writing workshop. And I just got very interested you know in that teaching and what it could look like it gave me a vision for teaching writing that that I hadn't had. You know because I hadn't had it in my own experience in school like. And it just kind of grew from there that's probably a part of me that that just loves writing you know itself because I do enjoy writing and so I was probably drawn to the teaching of it even more so than that maybe in some ways the teaching of reading just because I enjoyed writing so much myself. One thing I'm interested in is the DNA I think you know you certainly touch on it in some of the things that you have written that I have looked at in that is that perhaps when we teach literature that is to say people like you who go to university and take classes in literature. There is there's a

lot of analysis of the writing. But it seems that in most cases people spend a lot of time thinking about and talking about what it is about and not so much time looking at how it is the writer achieved the effect that he or she did. And I think that that's that's interesting why it is that there seem would seem to be so much concentration on. On meaning but and so little on method. I don't know either because certainly you know writers say and by the way the whole way we kind of got interested in looking at how things were written and using that as a way to help students write better what we read. You know interviews and articles by professional writers who all say if you if you want to write well what you need to do is read. And they got us to begin thinking about how would a person who who also writes read and it would that be a different kind of reading that they would do and you know

wanted one thing for sure is that people who off the right tend to notice not just what things are about but how they're written. And just as you know just as anyone who's a craftsperson at anything notices that aspect of their craft when they see it you know see it actually somewhere. So you know I don't know why. And people ask me this all the time in my work you know why hasn't anyone ever said this so directly before that that we need to look at how things are written if we're trying to learn to write. And I don't know why. You know sometime is a profession to really make that connection. But now lots of people are making it lots of places and it's really exciting work. You write about the some of the experiences that you had in the classroom and I mention other teachers have had to help trying to help students who are frustrated because they have ideas they have great ideas. And yet somehow they don't know how to how to realize them and when they know when they try to get them

down they look at what they put down on the page and they say to themselves you know what I had in mind was so much different. It was so much bigger it was had so much more impact. And now when I've put it down on the page it seems to have shrunk. And your your piece of advice there to the teachers who are in that situation is yes you may indeed feel frustrated because you don't quite know how to tell them to do it either. But you don't have to do that by yourself. There is lots of help available and in the form of other kinds of writing. So that's where we get to this idea of what it means to read like a writer. What does that mean. You don't like to write. Well it made it in large part it means reading with a sense of. A sense of possibility. I mean if you're someone who writes too. Then when you read the different things that you see happening in text you know become possibilities for things that you might try I mean ways that people use language one of the big misconceptions is that every writer has some sort of you know very

unique style. Every accomplished writer and that's actually you know that's just not true it's individual but it's not unique you see a lot of different things that writers do with texts with structures of text with ways of constructing sentences you know approaches to different genres. Lots of similarity when you really begin to look at how things are written you know what they're doing is not unique. So when you start to notice how things are written you see that in a person who's writing you know a sort of gathering a repertoire of of. Possibility for what they could do with that idea they've gotten. Of course you know it's our ideas that that really make us individual as writers they're not unique either I mean lots of people write about the same kinds of things but they are individual and so we start with that you know what is it that kids have to say what do they know about what do they care about and want to write about. And then our teaching is about helping them get a lot of visions of what's possible that they

could do with those ideas you know most people know revision as part of the writing process that revision when it's strong and good really starts out with a pursing haven't having had a vision to begin with you know of what they were what it is they were trying to do with the piece of writing and and the the vision we believe that vision for what you're trying to do come from your reading life that you know you have a clear sense of what it is you're trying trying to write and that the that that again comes from the repertoire of things you know are possible. It is inside a particular kind of writing that you're doing reading like a writer is really just looking closely at how things are written. Noticing how they're written lots of times it happens when you don't even you know intend for it to you know two or three mornings a week. When I'm reading the newspaper how I'll go and cut something out because I think that the way the writer has has written it is is interesting and I want to be able to show it

to the people I teach. You know I'm not even trying to do what I'm really reading just to find out what's going on but because I know just how things are written. It happens all the time. Well this I think this gets at an important idea to get across and I'm sure that it's an important idea to get across to teachers and that is that we can find many many examples of creative use of language out there in the world and that it's OK for students to look at them and to say now here this is pretty interesting to see what this writer has done. Maybe I'll try that. And it seems the problem is that that runs smack up against the this idea that also I'm sure we get it. We tell students either sort of directly or indirectly we say well we want their work to be on the original the original copying is bad. So maybe they get the idea or we have this idea that there's something that goes back to the sort of idea that writing is individual but it's not unique. Maybe they have this idea that well they can't.

Somebody else did that. So because they did that first that means well I can't do that myself. Well what we usually do I mean one of the ways you come to understand that is you don't just show them one example of a writer doing it you show them five examples of a different writer doing the same exact thing with language. You take something as simple as a repeated phrase in a text and one of the ways that the writers will tie vignettes together that go together is they'll use a repeated phrase you know to to do that. And I can stack up you know 20 different texts and probably even more than that where a writer has done that I mean the one that everyone knows is that you know the part of the Martin Luther King's speech I Have A Dream the part that everyone remembers works that way. I mean there was more to that speech than that but right in this one section of tags he begins to weave that dream and he keeps repeating you know I have a

dream. And we see that I've got articles from Sports Illustrated that do that editorials from the newspaper. The first chapter of John Grisham book the partner does this. You know for about eight eight paragraphs that it has this repeating phrase I found him I found him. We've got lots of picture books for children that use that tax structure. So you show kids you know you understand the structure as separate from that single tax and that's when it becomes something possible for you as well that it's not it's not like writing your own version of someone else's tax you really have to separate it the how it's written from the tax itself when you can see it in several different places. And really all of the craft moves that we talk about are ways of using language they're not that are available and that people use across the genre across writing for different kinds of audiences. You know it's it's not writing your own version of someone else's

someone else's. Well I have a calling I want to bring them into the conversation but I think I probably should introduce Again our guest for this part of focus 580 Dr. Katie wood way is a full time writer and researcher of the teaching writing. She's been a teacher herself at elementary and middle school levels. This is part of an occasional series we've been doing here on focus 588 looking at various aspects of reading and writing something we've been doing. The help of the folks at the National Council of Teachers of English based in Urbana. Questions comments are certainly welcome here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 and toll free no matter where you're listening 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 hear someone in Urbana to talk with us on line 1. Hello. Hi I'm really glad that you're on the air right now because this strikes right to what I'm doing I I've left elementary teaching but I am working as a consultant to help some students who are having trouble

with writing. But the emphasis is all on the testing right now that the district wants us to teach very controlled writing so that the kids can do well on their state test which kind of flies in opposite everything that we know is writing teachers so that they're given 40 minutes to to write a piece and try to revise it. And I'm finding it very frustrating and I wonder what you could offer to us as teachers with this this problem of testing being the emphasis now. Well and it you know your no that I know it. I don't know whether it makes it less lonesome or not but that you're not alone. People are struggling with that everywhere and I'm sure you probably know that. What testing does more than anything out in most cases is it messes up the process of writing like you just said it to go from a topic you never sing to a finished piece of writing in in 40 minutes. Apparently in your case in in my

state here it's just over an hour I think it's 60 Minutes. It's just you know no one writes that way and it certainly doesn't that reinforce a good habit of process to if that's all you ever do most of the people I know who are really trying to responsibly deal with writing and also get kids ready for test just practice that process from time to time. You know every every two or three weeks or so just take 40 minutes and try it and use what the kids do during that period of time as as assessment you know what are they how are they managing the time. What do they still need to know about this particular kind of writing. And so that they get practice with that process. But then on top of that. You know the bottom line is what you bring to the table when you sit down. You know what you know about writing what you know about how texts work what you know about how language works will help you help you do well you know the beginning of any school year we have some kids who come to us and they get past the writing

desk right then and when. When someone asks us why we say well they're just they're just good writers and so really curriculum and instruction should do everything it can to make kids good writers to know a lot about what what good writing looks like what it is whatever the that kind of writing is. It is that kids are going to be asked to do on a task. I would suggest really close study that kind of writing what is it look like when it's good. Our fourth grade test here in North Carolina is the test of narrative writing. So you know a lot of fourth grade teachers spend a lot of time looking at at just the basic story in literature and how does it work and how does it you know how do you deal with time how do you move it through time have how do things change in a story. Really studying stories as they exist because my experience is in most places and we need to always find out there are a lot of urban legends sometimes that float around about testing you know that they're looking for a kind of writing that doesn't

exist in the world and if they are we need to be protesting. But. Most cases they're not they're looking for good literature I was on the committee here in our state last year that reviewed the process for scoring our casts and I really came away with a lot of confidence that they are looking for you know good narrative writing. That the kids who were scoring really well were the kids who obviously had a sense of literature and vision when they read their pieces. So you know really having faith and studying good examples of narrative writing having kids write a lot of whatever the kind of writing it is they're going to be tested on in writing workshop and then and then slowing down just from time to time to practice that format because it is more that more than product. It's a process that is artificial and testing my experiences in most places the product is you know it's not artificial They want a good piece of literature so studying that and then from time to time practicing that that artificial process that's my best recommendation for

that you know I'm hoping within our lifetime we'll be able to to to have other kinds of assessments I don't think there's anybody who doesn't you know doesn't want to be held accountable for good teaching but what should that look like and could we re-imagine ways of looking at it. That that we get closer to what we really know people do when they write and write well. Could I add a column to fact if I could I ask you real quickly do you think that in that situation it's best to teach the children a real organized plan such as the fourth square or a five paragraph. They know they did with that. For that testing element only I think and my experience of practicing sort of looking at and scoring papers last year and on that committee that looked at that is what that doesn't get the best scores on the paper because the test because you come away with these really formulaic things. There are certainly things that I would teach them to do in that situation that I wouldn't do otherwise

like thinking through sort of you know exactly what's the one thing that's going to happen in your piece of writing. Is your the narrative test that you're getting them ready for one kind of writing is that the children do not you know still have a narrative that Tory or persuasively that you write up their book. OK. Yeah. Now I would I would do some work around thinking through before you get ready to write of course we know that in real process a lot of times your writing is actually a discovery process. You know what you want it to be and how it will go and you don't certainly don't have time to discover it in 40 minutes. What you want to do that thinking through sort of what your main what your main parts are going to be in a plan I don't think is a bad idea. But remember that that again what you bring to the table about how to have that kind of writing work how language works really will make that more effective. You know when you do it when you do take time out to just practice the test format probably attaching to that

lessons about how to handle the space of time you have. And you know thinking it through before you write it which the things you just mentioned are really ways of doing that it's not a bad idea connected to the death thing part. I would not make that the mainstay of my teaching of writing though because if you do you won't you won't open yourself up to the potential of other ways that tax can work. Thank you very very welcome and good luck to you. Thank you. Thanks for the call. We have someone else here obviously must be listening on the Internet because they're calling from St. Louis. OK. Our toll free line or hello. Hi my name is Julie. Human I am a third grade technology teacher in Jennings Missouri. Oh yeah things I admire. But yeah Kate you just came last summer. We just want to let you know we're listening via internet in our classroom and so many of our classrooms are listening as well I'm on my cell phone. But we just wanted to tell you how much you are reading and

writing works that check now are you know your package that you sent us or gave us the information that you gave us that our workshop has impacted our reading and writing workshop here. It's the biggest part of our day. Our kids love it. They have really put out some incredible pieces this year and we have learned so much from you coming here and doing our stuff development that we just found out about this and we just want to give you a call and let you know. Thank you for everything you've done and to just keep up the great work that you're doing and we'll be sure to follow you wherever you go next. Oh well I'm speechless. Thank you I mean you know it means a lot to me to know that this thing I'm putting so much energy into it is helpful for people and pushing people for it so that's great. Well did I know they are working on the first great book it should be it should be finished soon I was working on that I think last summer when I was there and you know really trying to address those issues of teaching the youngest writers to let them know it's coming along.

Oh good well thank you it's an i can't my kids say hi to Europe at. Yeah OK. Anyway. Why did they think we got to get back to that we just want to thank thank. OK all right everybody there should get back to work. And thanks for the call. Other folks who are listening certainly are welcome to call Let me introduce Again our guest Katie would read a she is a full time writer and researcher of the teaching of writing and she taught at Western Carolina University she was an associate professor of language arts education there for eight years. She has also taught at elementary and middle school level she was for two years deaf developer at the reading and writing project at Teachers College at Columbia University. She's the author or co-author of four books on the teaching and writing and also published many articles and book chapters. She's talking with us this morning about the teaching writing and questions comments are certainly welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Something else

that you've written and I think I'd like. Ask you about in. In part of your writing about teaching people to to read. Particularly students to read like writers. You write that what's essential to understand is for a student to learn to read like writers they first have to see themselves as writers. And I'm sure that there probably are some students who do who have who seem to have the drive to be a writer and for a lot of people I'm sure that they would say a lot of people who now make their living as writers say I can't not write that it's almost a compulsion to do and I'm sure that probably there are some students who see themselves as being writers just like there are some who see themselves as being astronauts or doctors or scientists or or whatever but I don't imagine that there are that many and that it's something that a lot for a lot of people they don't see themselves as writers a writer is an occupation and John Grisham is a writer but me I'm not you know I'm not a writer how do you. For all the other kids in the classroom you know there may be. One or two who

say yeah I'm a writer I'm going to be a writer and they're really enthusiastic about it and you you can't you can't stop them. But there are the others that feel that it's difficult. How do you get those kids to see themselves as writers now. Well you know one thing about it is we're not my vision. I think about the sometimes like it's my vision that everyone will grow up to be a professional writer and it's not I mean I think the world might be a nice place but you know somebody had to do the work. You have to run the bank and stuff like that. We really don't what we do envision kids you know the world that they live in is that they'll feel like if somebody says could you put that in writing. You know they have the confidence to do that no matter what occasion in their life would would call for that. And also this just this whole habit of mind of whatever kind of thing you need to have right you want you know how to learn about it like you know that you need to read the kind of stuff that you you want to write so that if you grow up and you go to law school you know you know you need to study how how legal briefs are

written not just you know what's in them but how they're written so that you can already do that. So the habit of we want to go with them in the classroom. You know the bottom line is if we're going to if we're charged with teaching kids to write in one of the requirements is that they write and that you don't want you to learn to write is to write. And so whatever kind of stuff you know it is that we're teaching you to write if it's editorials if it is stories if it's a memoir then we're going to read that kind of stuff because you're supposed to write that kind of stuff. So the identity part is really that you're just a person who does it every day. Because in my classroom you're going to do it every day. You know we in other parts of our lives we define ourselves that way. You know by the stuff we do I'm a person who rides motorcycles. And it's because I do that a lot that I can say that and so in our classrooms you are a writer just just by the virtue that you you're going to have to write every day and that's really not optional. You know we hope kids will like it and enjoy it. But

even if they don't if I'm charged with teaching you how to write you've got to write and you're going to have to write every day. And your first piece is due next Friday and. You know you're a writer in that sense. And. And then you know getting you to look at what professional writers do really just has to do with. This bottom line rule of thumb that whatever kind of thing I'm wanting you to write I want you to study people who do it well and that we always try and mind that you know we find examples for any kind of writing it is we want kids to do so that they actually read the kind of thing we're asking them to write. And so in that sense you are like this person because you're going to you're going to write that kind of thing too and so it's really not a whole. You know that we see you having this as a profession but just that in this room you're a person who writes you know every day and you write this kind of stuff. So you're a writer in that sense. Let's take another call we have. When painter was Lie number one.

Okay here fellow you know I was interested in your subject because I am a retired teacher in years retired. I taught 38 years it's in sixth grade and ninth Kamini as I love to do all these kind of things but we never had time to do anything because I'd taught all subjects. We had reading spelling language definition punctuation vocabulary lots of time on a grammar. The actual form of handwriting. My problem always was and of course and we had so studied science math. We did keep a daily you know book or diary. All I'm saying is there's just doesn't seem to be enough time to do always good things. That's just my comment and I'll discuss it with them so that's a good comment.

The bottom line is all the things I have to in the ng need to add up to something and that you know that the actual writing I you know I believe in I so respect your years of experience in your time in the classroom and I'm you know and I come to you humbly at this point in my career but I really believe we can spend a lot of time on the part sometimes and not enough time on what they're actually supposed to come together to mean and you know a lot of us spent time in school this way and we never actually really wrote that much stuff. And. Which is one of the reasons why I work with a lot of adults who don't feel very confident as writers because they've never actually written very much they know a lot about you know the kinds of things you mention that they don't know how to bring them together in the to in to a text and you know the world that we live in there's a lot of. Technological help now for things like handwriting the most people in the professional world you know wouldn't put a piece of writing out in their handwriting of course they would. They would work

process it and so it's in some ways it's given a time to really work on composition. And you know just the bottom line is if you want people to be able to be a competent writer someone who can answer the charge of can you put that in writing. I just think they need to have written a lot a lot of stuff. Certainly one of the things I'm very interested in and if you read my work it's so in there is the idea of the talk of language and how it works in grammar talk is so much in that it and what we do when we look at how things are written I mean we're always talking about that structure and you know what work is the for doing and this sort of thing but we look at it from the stance of how can this help me know more about how to write well rather than just I need no verbs and so it's a it's kind of a different stance that we see everything as a tool for for writing well and that we spend time writing without So most teachers who are you know who find the time to do this have kind of realized that all the separate parts you mentioned.

Then to the act of writing and that we get kids writing we get them composing making pieces of literature. We look to say which part they need help with. You certainly can't read and write a lot without and talk about it a lot without you know gaining more and more knowledge of a cavalry which you mentioned. So they were trying to figure out ways to make them come together into the actual act of composition which is the hard part. You know all the component parts you kind of work out but sitting down and making it come out into a good piece of writing takes years of experience and so we're putting some of that experience into school and trying to bring those together into what they're really meant for which is composition. This gives me the opportunity to ask another of these questions that I wanted to raise an obviously it's a big one and I know that you've written on it because you do workshops you do writing workshops with teachers and with Stu. I'm sure that a lot of teachers say something like we're writing all the time all day long why do we

need to do a special workshop on writing. This is key to two main reasons I think one is when you look at that kind of writing that it is all day long a lot of it is not composition. It's not the really hard work of going from an idea on the whole journey all the way to a finished piece of writing that you think you know it is your best work it is going to communicate to an audience that composition part the hard part. A lot of it is reflecting you know on something that you've done sometimes you're writing down observations you're writing down responses to things that it it's all writing to support your life it's all important writing it all helps you be fluent but it's also easy writing compared to composition which is all the way from an idea to a finished basement. And that is the hard thing that's the thing that a lot of people come out of came out of school with not confident that they could do it. That's one issue is that the writing that happens all day long a lot of times is not that hard work of composition and I just think the

only way people are going to get. Good it that is with a lot of experience. The other thing is curriculum. Most of the writing that's done the rest of the day is done in the service of other curriculum and there's no actual teaching of writing. And you know especially since we've learned to to study craft there's just so many things that you can actually teach people that will help them write well. You know I think a lot of us when we were in school we were kind of the message was communicated that some people are just good at writing and other people aren't and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Well you know I don't really believe that I think there are all kinds of things I can teach you about how writing works that will help you right way better than you ever thought you could. And I need time to teach that there's a lot of curriculum around how to write well that gets lost if there's no teaching of writing if it's just kind of you know what we write to explain our math problems and. And believe me I think all that writing is important but it's not it's not composition and it doesn't have the curriculum of how to compose. We all

attach to it so that you know enough certainly a belief that I have. But that's the sort of information that that informs that. Well I think you said something there actually very important that's important in a global sort of a sense because I think so often we say something like Well you know some people are just good at feeling the blank. And others aren't and either you are or you're not and I'm not sure that's much true about too many things. The but. And yet that people get this idea. You know you see it happen with kids in math. You see that happen with kids in science. You see it happen with kids in art and I'm sure the same thing with writing they say well either you know either you're a born mathematician or you're not well that's just hooey. And yet people say that they say that of themselves they say that of their children. And it's seems that it's just a matter of of it's more a. It's a lot more about teaching than it is about what people were born to be or do.

And you know it's a really deep belief in the power of teaching that you know I believe I can I can work with you in ways that will make a difference. You know how to I think we've been able for years to let our We've sort of let ourselves traditionally off the hook in writing and again just you know I can help you at it well but it either you've got it or not in terms of whether it's good and I'm not we just don't believe that anymore I mean certainly I believe in talent I think there are some people for whatever reason that think to sort of come to you know more easily particularly ways of seeing the world that inform their writing. But they're all there. First of all habits of mind you can nurture that that can help you you know think better like a writer and then there's all kinds of technique and strategy work that you can learn to do in terms of how the language works that will help you you know take an idea and write it well. We have some other callers here we have about 10 minutes left in this point of focus 580 with

Katie would rate questions welcome we're talking about teaching writing 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2. Four five five. Next up is champagne to Champagne callers here next is line number two right here. Hello hello there. I had a comment about I understand you know how important it is to learn how to write when you're young and everything. When you get older and you're trying to be productive at it I don't know too many people who'll enjoy it even if you look at some of these books by Stephen King or the lives of Hemingway and Faulkner and these guys didn't really enjoy it they became alcoholics because it was painful for them and sort of worked out well for them because they know how to write and everything but even so it's today you're saying like. How it's difficult to have somebody hand you a topic and write about it well there's a lot of

people who periodicals and editors and agents to find out what it is they want to print and go from there because. There are better ways of course. George the morning after writing so who isn't always you're not always supposed to like you. Hard work is very hard work in Iraq right. Sometimes you know eight or nine hours a day. It's and never when I'm teaching I say that it's not hard but you know people don't always dislike things that are hard. There's ways in which too especially when you go from an idea to a piece of writing that people read and they get and it makes a difference that this is an incredibly satisfying thing. And again my vision for the students that I work with is that they will grow into adults who will if someone and I'm just sort of using this expression as a metaphor if someone says could you put that in writing. They feel confident that they can. Whether it's a letter to the editor or a letter to you know to their

boss that they have a confidence about writing that they can take something that needs to be said in Fayette. And that's not always easy work. You know there's no question about that and I know that because I do it. But you know that that doesn't make it something that I don't like because it's challenging and it's hard. You know finding a balance of understanding between that to continue and I think probably is a challenge for people who teach people how to write. And there's a lot of. Periodicals out there that are stark thirsty starving for for people to sense doesn't contribute and don't pay money for. Sometimes kids wonder what's the point you know why am I learning how to do this when I get older I'm not going to use it. But Reader's Digest pays 300 for a story about you know you were in and your form or something like there are on the way. All right well thanks. Let's go on here to another champagne person this is lie

number one. Well oh yes. First off I actually want to. Mention that a caller earlier the teacher from pain actually was my sixth grade teacher because I had been the pain in your side of constraint. You recognized his voice. I did. How fun. Yeah Michel. Question is I'm actually a little bit of a different stage I've written three completed novel and as you were talking earlier one of the people who seems not to be able to not write that unfortunately sometimes has been myself. But I wonder if you discuss too much. This is something I got absolutely nothing of during college was how to go about the publishing of the novel. And I know that's a little off topic but again that's one of the things I

have written and written and written and written and now I'm turning relatively middle age and I think perhaps I should try to get that published. Yeah. You know there are. There are teachers who do some wonderful work with actually getting kids to to submit things for publications to periodical magazines. They get they have the Writer's Market you know probably you know about Writer's Market which comes out every year and you know they have copies of Fez and children's writers market in their room. Well you know but it's I don't know that it you know in a lot of classrooms that it's that big and that I mean we kind of use the word publish publish in the sense of go public with it you know get it to the audience that you wrote it for. And we are trying to really step up and and do the work of having his you know write for for real audiences even if it's just you know they're writing a piece about fishing and you say well you know I know Mr. Phanor

you know who works in the gym a lot fishing maybe you could maybe you could give this to beat it to and when you're finished. And in some ways we use publishing like that go public with the writing but you know some teachers do work with with the how to get published but and have kids sending stuff off but you know it's probably something we could do more of especially if we've really got kids you know who who want to do that is as obviously you did when you were when you were in that phase. Again the reason it's important is because again it's one of those things that there is a craft to getting published and. In studying writing in my undergraduate graduate classes we talked at all about the function of the actual creating of the art.. I realized when I graduated with a method that I had never even conceived of what to do with it once I get it written and

so I just thought I'd put that up there are for shit. OK well thanks for the call let's go to caller in Indiana Kingman Indiana. All our toll free line. Hello hello. Yes you've touched on a subject that's fairly near and dear to my heart. I'm very grateful to my junior high and high school English teachers for teaching me how to write. It's opened up doors for me professionally. People have been able to hand things to me and say we need this polished we need this put together in a professional way. Would you do that. And that's been a real thrill for me. One of my pet peeves are corporate managers who cannot spell cannot put a decent sentence together and issue memos left right and center that are unclear concise thing and do nothing but stir the dust. And there are so many times in my professional life I would like to take those memos and those managers and just say now what. What if you put it like this you have to put it like that. So good luck. Thanks I hope more teachers

teach English better in schools I think we have a better corporate America for that. All right well thanks for coming. We have about five minutes left. Other questions if somebody wants to call in real quick we can get you on probably otherwise you know something that we have not touched on. And it's five minutes is not enough. But let me just raise the point and that is in particular what we're talking about creative writing. You know it seems that that in in school we teach we teach spelling we teach grammar we teach sentence structure we teach rules and often sometimes I think we do we tell the kids you can't do this you can't do this you can't do this. Then though if we do this thing that you encourage us to do that is to read like writers look for interesting examples of technique. When you start doing that you start saying Wait a minute this this writer here they broke the rule. And over here this writer this writer broke the rule. And I think in fact a lot of places you see really creative rule breaking is in

children's literature. Maybe a little bit more so than than writing for the adult market. How do you how do you balance the need to observe some basic rules with the getting across to kids the idea that by breaking the rules you can have greater. Impact you can get across greater meaning you can you can really do something by using the language. If not an original way an unconventional way. Two things One is that it can all kinds of right. I have really opened. You know I have collections of any kind of writing with and I want people to read it whether it's an editorial It's a new you get off the front page of the newspaper and get into your feature articles and things. If people want to read it they'll do what they need to do with language to make it make it work right make it a strong piece. I'm very big on kids learning how our language works. But I I don't think that how our language works

exist outside of how it's used. I mean it didn't grammar books didn't exist before the language so it's a chicken and egg thing the language came first and when you look at all the different ways that it's used it that's all it is there's not something else to know other than how people actually use it. So we're constantly trying to figure out you know how it is used and the more you know about how different things get used to it the more adept you are at using it you know we I don't think that kids should know less about language I think they need to know more. But I do think that we should match that to what's really out there and that we don't want to like stand and make up rules that really don't apply to most any kind of writing you have you know maybe maybe it's the it's the role that that. Understood and sometimes the things that writers do with with language are actually very rule based. They they've taken and exploited it. We talk that through too but you know it. I just believe that language all language is it's how it's used and how it exists and I mean

look at the impact of e-mail and instant messaging. On the evolution of language and how it's being used to achieve huge and I would say within our lifetime we're going to see really interesting things happen to language use and you know reading like writers helps you sort of keep up with the evolution of that and understand it in that way. What I get. One real quick one more person here. Line 1. Hello I have a short answer how OK you've actually touched on what I was going to ask on about the Internet because I teach at a university where email messages are sometimes incoherent even among professionals you know. And I'm wondering how do you get students to make that transition from or even adults to understand that. Yes the language is flexible we use it in different ways in different settings but when you switch from the screen to a piece of paper you really have to you know make that transition to a different way of using language.

Funny because people have been so hard on kids for so long you know all their writing is just full of this and that and. Now that people are e-mailing each other we actually get to see a lot more adults writing than we've ever seen before and actually adults do it. You know some of it is the social more that around that. Chang are changing you know we used to have so my hand had handwritten a note and misspelled something we thought oh oh I know how awful. And now you see it and you go well it must be a typo. You know you just pass it off a lot of times and I don't you know I don't have an answer to that except to say that the way that people look at Written language is evolving all the time and you know hopefully we would we would have a you know a lot of professional sort of interest in what we're sending out and would think that through but you know I do it to you I send out emails I had Type A and I I get it back and go oh my how did I miss that. I think it's the pace of which pace with which we use language now has so increased and so many more people are out there using it that we're actually seeing you know it's not just kids to do when they use language fast to give

everybody in you know I don't know where it'll go will be interesting to see where we are with that in 20 years won't it. Yeah I will. Well thank you for an interesting program when you're well-known there we must as we used our time and when we do you a doctor will say Thanks very much for your time. We should just. Katie would re. She's a full time writer and researcher of the teaching of writing this is a show that we have been doing a part of a series of programs looking at aspects of writing and reading with the assistance of the folks at the National Council of Teachers of English in Urbana and if you're interested in learning more about that organization go to their website. W w w dot in the c t e or J. Programming here on AM 580 made possible in part by a grant from the thrifty nickel distributed each Thursday in over 100 towns in east central Illinois on the web at thrifty nickel ads DOT COM programming also made possible by grants from 10000 villages in downtown champaign and Crossroads global handcrafts for 28 North Main in Bloomington providing income to third world artisans

by marketing their handicrafts and telling their stories in North America.