Focus 580; Separate and Unequal: The Education of Blacks in the South

Good morning and welcome to focus 580 This is our telephone talk program Money's David Enge. Glad to have you with us this morning. Next week many public television stations around the country including ARE STILL TV will be airing a new documentary that looks at the history of public education in America. It's titled school the story of American public education. It's a four part series. It looks at the development of public education from the late 17th 70s to the present and it will be airing this over two nights the first two parts will air next Monday night the third between 8:00 and 10:00 Central Time and then the next evening on Tuesday the 4th we will air the second two parts. And there also is by the way a companion book to this series if you're interested. And it has the same title it's titled school the story of American public education it's published by Beacon Press here this morning in this part of focus we'll try and talk a little bit about just one chapter in this story. But our guest is James Anderson. He's professor and head of educational policy studies at the

University of Illinois and is one of the people who is featured in this documentary talking about some of the research and writing that he has done on the experiences of African-Americans in the south. Educational experiences of African-Americans in the south. And so we'll talk a little bit about this and also talk try to talk a little bit about where we have come from but also where we are right at the moment. And also of course as always good people who are listening the opportunity to ask questions. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also have a toll free line and that one is good anywhere that you can hear us. That is eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5 3 3 3 w. while toll free 800 to 2 to W while up. If you're interested by the way in this this very specific subject our guest has written a book on the subject is titled The Education of blacks in the south 1862 1935 and he also has contributed an essay to the book school the story of American public education so you can

seek those out of you want to take a look at them. Well thank you very much for being here. Thank you for inviting me. I think probably it's interesting to be interesting to talk a little bit about say not just start in in the 50s but to go back before World War Two and talk about what schools were like. And at that time I think probably the very to say that education it didn't matter almost didn't matter who you were unless perhaps you were very wealthy that the education that most people got was not very good. And if you go back before World War 2 even the number of people who attended or graduated from high school did almost in medical You were very few people even went to high school then what. What was education like what were schools like for what black kids in the south let's say starting in the 30s. Yeah.

Most African-American students in the thirties didn't have access to high school and since there were very few public schools available in the southern states there was a report as of well one era came out around one hundred seventeen which pointed out that in all of the 17 southern states there were only 64 public high schools available to African-American students. There were states like Louisiana and South Carolina and Mississippi that did not have a single public high school available in the whole state for African-American students. And as of the one era and they had very few by the 1930s there were some counties like Sunflower County Mississippi that even as late as 1958 did not have a public high school available for African-American students. And so for most parents and students they didn't have access to high school. Now many of them had access to elementary schools but I think people are probably unaware. The extent to which elementary schools were also unavailable. Many of the schools that were available were in churches

and privately owned. And many of the states the majority of schools available to African-American kids were privately owned schools there were very few public schools even at the elementary level and so the opportunity to go to a good elementary school and expressions or receive a good high school education was extremely rare. In the same time period What were conditions like for for white kids was how much better where they are were they that much better. Much better surprisingly much better in fact. Some of the states like Mississippi which was noted for having a very very small investments in education overall actually invested very heavily in the education of its white students and the state of Mississippi had a high school enrollment. That was not much different from a northern state and by the 1930s the southern states altogether. When you just look at the enrollment of white students in high schools there's only a small difference between the availability of public high schools and the actual enrollment between the southern states and the northern states. If you just look at the availability of schools for white

students. So the difference between the two was really. Here's Amanda striking what how much then had had things changed or perhaps had had things not changed. When you look at the immediate post-war period where here it was at a time when America was booming there was great prosperity. Every year there was a great deal of it and at least in lot of people's minds there was there was a great deal of optimism and hope for the way things were going. And I'm sure also a great very strong feeling that children were important in investing in their education was a very important one how did things change or had things not changed over that that period say from from the 30s to the early 50s things were beginning to change through the particular with the presidency of Roosevelt and the post World War Two era is returning and the pressure for change and for more.

Participation in democracy was clearly there and there were a lot of protests. And so in that time period you could see changes but when you look at it on a practical basis it's much more gradual than what comes through sometimes in the. More symbolic changes that occurred as we know forces were desegregated and things like that were beginning to happen in that time period. But in my own family for instance my mother used to tell me I didn't understand when I was a kid about how she went back to the high school when the high school came and I could never really figure out what she was talking about and I would ask myself what does she mean when the high school came because I just assumed that they'd always been high school them. And finally when I looked at the papers I mean I saw that she had a certificate of having graduated from the ninth grade and that was the highest grade that was available in the town at that time. And in the post where I want to there they added the next three grades the 10th 11th and 12th grade. And then people who'd

already graduated from the highest grade in that school went back to try to get a high school diploma after they had graduated. And so we get a sense of just how gradual those changes were taken place on the ground. And you would see some development and some changes but the changes really didn't take off until after Brown decision really. Well one thing we know certainly is that for people who are involved in civil rights movement education was a central issue. Why. Maybe as it was almost a foolish question that asked but at the question of why was it that that and certainly there were there were other sorts of struggles over equal access and equality of opportunity but that schools were particularly a central issue. They'd always been a central issue and they were very highly valued within the culture. But I think what it meant what was different about the post-war to it was that communities local communities families as well as civil rights leaders recognized that education had become far more important as a gateway to participation in

American life and culture. By that time just for an example about 50 years earlier at the turn of the century only about 6 percent of the American students of high school age of all ethnic backgrounds were actually enrolled in high school. And I'm not talking about the number that actually attend. So in the late 1890s fully 94 percent of students high school age were not even enrolled in high school. By 1930 the majority of students were enrolled in high school and by the 1940s it was becoming a real powerful an institution in American life. And so communities of color in particular realize that they were being left behind in a very important social transformation. And so the process for education to press for secondary and also how you do occasion in the post where what to air it was extremely strong. And it's because the institution itself was becoming more important as a gateway to so that life to success to economic success as well as to status and prestige perhaps at this point here just very quickly

reintroduce the guest for this part of focus 580 We're speaking with James Anderson he's a professor of education. At the University of Illinois in this subject we're talking about something that he's written on in his book The Education of blacks in the south this deals with the period between 1860 and one thousand thirty five. He also is one of the people who was interviewed for a new documentary on American public education that will be airing on many PBS stations including ours next week. You can look for the show on TV next week. Monday night Tuesday night there are four parts and it will air over the two nights. It's titled school the story of American public education. And here we're talking it very fairly specifically about the educational experiences of blacks in the south. And you can give us a call if you are interested in being involved in the conversation 3 3 3 W I L L toll free 800 1:58 W while. Well just for the for this to be a significant chapter say if one if one sat down and said All right we're going to make a documentary about American public education what should we be talking about. Is it right way immediate that you

would say this particular thing that we're talking about here is what is one of the most important developments in the history of schooling in this country. Yes it's one of the most important elements in this your schooling but also one of the most important of elements in the history of the country. I think the Brown decision. So rights movement. The role of public education in a multiracial democracy. And questions of access and opportunities for people has to be considered one of the most critical issues that we face in the society. So it's not only important to education but it's also important to the larger questions of democracy. One of the points that I think that you make if I understand right and it's something that perhaps people you would say that people misunderstand or need to appreciate is that for people African-Americans that at that time during the civil rights movement who were really interested in making sure that their children got the best education that they could that their issue was indeed that the

quality of education that they received. And it was not so much. It was not so much integration not so much that they were thinking that they wanted their children to go to school with the white kids but it was that they just wanted to make sure that the school that whatever school their children went to but the quality of education they received was equal to that that the white students were receiving So for them the issue really was. Operate in equality of opportunity not so much integration. Yes I think it's kind of ironic that in time we came to view the civil rights movement as a kind of social policy movement that was trying to deal entirely with issues of racial integration. We somehow lost sight of the important issues of equality and academic excellence that actually were the one with the foundation of the movement in the first place. For example when Johns walked out of high school in the 1950s she walked out and let the whole high school class to walk out

because of the inferior quality of education. And they were protesting the unequal size of the separate but equal educational system. They were concerned about the lack of opportunity is a lack of science labs. A poor curriculum and so forth and so they really place quality of education at the very forefront of the civil rights movement. And I own state Illinois often since high school students walked out of high schools in Chicago and the 1960s demanding homework demanding more AP courses. I mean it you know it is hard to find another high school class that's walking out to demand more homework. And they were concerned about the inferior quality of education. And so they actually placed quality and academic excellence at the very forefront of the demands for great opportunities and for civil and political equality. And now we look back we think of the civil rights movement as a kind of movement that sought to impose social policies like bus and. And racial balance

on our school systems and we forget the fact that the foundation of the movement was about academic excellence and about the quality of education and we should never lose sight of that. Well in a way also it's I suppose it's not surprising when you think about the fact that in so many cases over such a long period of time schools and up bearing the burden of social change. Somehow we we we have some problem with some issue that it's difficult are we dealing with in society and often whether they like it or not schools end up either directly or indirectly having to deal with that thing and that will always be the case. I think you know we saw when the economy was bad in the 1980s that the schools were blamed for turning out a poor product that we were we were not educating the citizen to be productive workers and therefore they took much of the blame for the for the bad economy. The economy became pretty good over the last eight years or so. And you can see the attacks upon the schools started to ease up. And so they will always I mean school is a subordinate I mean education is a subordinate situation

and I suspect they always receive the blame for questions of morality questions of economy questions that when things go wrong in society people will immediately turn to the screws as and blame them for it because it is the one institution that we all attend. And we spend an awful lot of time in it so people naturally think that if things go wrong we should look to the schools for an answer. That's unfair to teachers and to school administrators. But I think it's it comes with the territory. Well there are for those people who and I think that there still are some people who think that diversity in society is not only a good thing but it's something that you can't get away from and if you have children what you want for them is to have the experience of knowing people who are different than them day. And one of the places that's that may be the place it's most likely to happen is in public school. At the same time though I wonder whether we have actually given up on that idea that school is

that maybe could be or should be one of the functions of the public school. I don't think we've given up on it. I think it's been floated and sometimes a strong opposition. But our society is becoming increasingly diverse. The world is becoming increasingly diverse and small and we talk about you know the global economy and the kind of transformations and the flow of people from one place to another. And it should be clear to any parent today that if you're going to provide for your child a good education. She prepare them to live in a very diverse world meeting and working with people from very different backgrounds and they may very well work here or they may work in some other part of the world. But the ability to embrace and understand different cultures different people different languages becomes imperative. So it's different in the world that I grew up in I mean I think

people thought a lot about the homogenous communities and people sort of living and working together that was you know in very very small communities. The world is different today. You really have to think first in terms of diversity. Well that this brings me to I definitely want to ask you about the results of a fairly recent study that was done by the folks at Harvard at the Civil Rights Project there where they report. And this is been out for a couple of weeks that. Schools in this country are becoming increasingly segregated. That they say for example a little over 70 percent of the nation's black students now attend schools that are primarily minority schools. And by the same token here white students and whites on the average attend schools where more than 80 percent of the students are white and less than 20 percent of the students are from all other racial ethnic groups combined And what's perhaps most concerning about this is that segregation by race

is very strongly related to segregation by class and by income which then gets us back to this this issue of equality. You know what sort of resources schools and communities have to put behind their students. So if you if you look at figures like this. What what has happened over the last 10 years or so that makes it look as if we are we're going backwards. We are in terms of the desegregation of our schools. I think the report is very instructive and I think we have to keep in mind that issues like desegregation and issues like equality much like issues of democracy they require eternal vigilance. And what happened was that we made substantial progress. Maybe two decades ago particularly the southern region. Most of the segregation that took place in the post 1970 era took place within the Southern states. And then we got a different political agenda. And when you think about it

from the presidency of Nixon until today we really haven't had a president that was very strong on issues of desegregation. Nixon was against bus and full it in cod and so forth we've had an executive branch that has been indifferent to in some ways hostile to desegregation. The Congress has proposed a number of anti busts and amendments and one point thought about making it a part of the Constitution itself but it hasn't been very good on that so it's been left to the judicial system to try to keep issues of access and equity on the forefront of the national agenda. And when we sort of became indifferent or turned to other policies we've allowed our schools to resegregate in very important ways and now we have to not only go forward but we have to go back and sort of start all over again in some respects. And so the movement to desegregate and one of things that's very important here is that our society is becoming increasingly diverse. I mean in the 1990s this census

only about three of our large cities were. Majority people of color and in the 2000 census. It's like 11 of the 12 largest cities. And so the nation has become an increasingly diverse diverse. The Census reported that again and again and yet our schools are becoming resegregate. So that's a collision course. We can have a society that is increasingly diverse in terms of our general population but with a school system that is becoming more and more segregated by race and ethnicity. Why. Why has that happened. It does that does this have to do with the fact that people geographically are in a sense they're segregating themselves or that people who have the opportunity they're going there and they're moving and maybe schools are one of the reasons that they move and that some people can move and some people can't. I think I will start by sort of reflecting on how we were able to achieve some degree of segregation in the post 1970 era was because local communities local

school boards as well as courts and others actually. Concentrated on this on this question and there were plans put in place to achieve you know greater degrees of desegregation in the public school systems. I think in the last 15 years or 20 years or so we have not seen leadership on this front. And so I think we have been resegregation in part because of local and state leadership. I don't think it's because of the movement of populations that that's really responsible for this. We could actually do a much better job if we were playing and put in place strategies to achieve greater degrees of desegregation. You know so it's just a matter of the fact that that's as a price it's not a priority. It's not a participant with. Why is it do you think though that within. Within the African-American community the the idea of how DOES NO ONE balance out these ideas the importance of in

having integrated schools having schools that reflect our diversity and the result though the same. And on the other side just the simple issue of maybe you saying I don't care that much about that and what the student body looks like I just want to make sure that that my children are getting a good education. How how did those in people's minds how do you think those two things balance out. There's always been conflict always I should say tension between those two things historically and whether we're talking about today well the 1930s or the 1960s has always been that tension between the first priority which is to get a good education and to have very good schools and very good teachers and environment I mean it's just natural for parents to want their students in an education environment that really nurtures to students cares about the students and provides for them the best education and the tension has been great within the African-American community in part because usually that community is the. You know the disproportionate

share of the burden of desegregation. It's their kids used to being bused high schools or elementary schools that are closed. In behalf of desegregation It's been a long time that the African-American teaches and the African Prince in particular the southern states were demoted or lost at jobs in the name of desegregation. So desegregation has hit the African-American community you know and in a very conflicted and developed way and so we should expect. That a good share of that community would have reservations about the segregation because it means losing teachers losing principals closing schools busing our kids and sending that kids to environments that are not always friendly. You should expect some degree of that but I don't think that I mean I don't think that experience should dictate the future. And I mean people have a right to be cautious and to have reservations. But at the same time one of the things that come from the civil rights movement is a dream. Sort of a capacity to work for a better environment. And there's an important part of the African

making community that continues to work for that better environment. Even though some people are very dissatisfied and even discontent with what has taken place in the name of desegregation and it is also fair to say that it's still it remains more that he is among African-Americans the idea of having their children attend schools that are integrated. It's more important to them than it is to white Americans or not as you know that I don't think so. I think what's more important to them is the fences they know that quite often the schools within their communities tend to be less well funded. And you know we just take a city like Chicago and look at the buildings the infrastructure. The funding that goes and then look at other school systems within the state particularly in the surrounding area it becomes quite apparent that schools in other places and other communities. A bit of schools. And so those parents continue to work for those kinds of schools and want those schools for their

kids. But I wouldn't say that they are less ambivalent less conflicted about the whole process of desegregation. I think people from all communities have real concerns and real questions about what has taken place in terms of desegregation. We're just about at the midpoint just a hair past the midpoint of this part of focus 580 and I guest is James Anderson he's professor of education here at the University of Illinois we're talking about a special area of interest of his He's written about this in his book The Education of blacks in the south. Covering the period between 1860 and 1935 he also is one of the people interviewed for a new documentary looking at the history of public education in America which is titled school the story of American public education. It's a four part series will be airing next week on many public television stations around the country including WRAL TV. So you can see it in over two evenings the first two parts will air Monday night the third from 8 until 10 parts three and four. Tuesday night the fourth from eight until

10:00. And there is also a companion book to the series. To which Professor Anderson has contributed and an essay and this book is titled The same title as the series school the story of American Public Education published by the Beacon Press and questions are welcome. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. One of the things that we certainly know is that there can be a big difference in the kinds of resources that very different schools can can put behind their students here in State of Illinois. You know there are some places where they spend and I'm not sure what the high point is it might be nine or ten thousand dollars per student. And there are other places where they only spend and spend maybe three or four thousand dollars per student. It's something the legislature has tried to address. They established a certain level they said well at as long as we can at least get it up to this point. That's OK. But then there's there's still this enormous

spread between some schools and others. And we see at other other places around the country too you know depending on what the bat what the base is an economic base of any particular community that will determine what how much money that they're spending on their students. And some people have said you know that the that this is not right and that the states really should do something about it. People even launched a court battle saying you know attacking it that way saying that this is this is inherently wrong. Where does that does that kind of effort stand and is it something that you would think that say for example that the state of Illinois would ever seriously address. Or is that kind of in equity. Always going to be there. Well we had a few years back the ikan very committee that sought to deal with this question that the school funding formula. But it's a real problem. I mean it's based on assessed valuation and it allows some districts to

have a per capita expenditure as much as 16000 to $17000. In other districts districts have only a fraction of that amount. And one of the problems is that the districts that tend to be less well funded also the districts with a higher level of poverty. And for example if you take the high schools in Chicago and the average level of poverty a person who is 85 percent. That's it. That's extraordinarily high. Which means you know roughly eight to have kids that attend the high schools in the city that come from poverty backgrounds. And then the same place schools are less well funded and in places where you spend about 65 70000 per skid also the places where people are much more well to do. And so we have a formula that actually compels us to spend less money in places where kids have high poverty level and to spend more money in places

like it so well to do. I think we should be surprised at the results that we get from that formula. And if we then correlate you know those districts to any of the indicators of educational achievement like schools or graduation rates or dropout rates what we find is those places with high assessed valuation. That's been about 16 5 about 17000. Per student. Much better and we go to levels of high poverty. It's much worse and the challenge for public education at the state level is to figure out some way to get out of that double bind. Yeah and would that really necessitate going to some significantly different way of funding schools and is that it is that essentially the problem because you would have to change the whole funding mechanism and there just doesn't seem to be support for that. You'd have to change the school funding formula and it would have to go from assessed valuation on property taxes to some other kind of way of supporting public education.

We have a caller others are certainly welcome here like join the conversation the number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Also we have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 years color in urban salon number 1. Yes I went to a one room country grade school where the teacher was chosen. Whether the deciding factor was whether he was a relative of somebody on the school board and not necessarily educated. As did my siblings and we went to college working our way through. Education was very important in our family get into it. I've taught in public school and one thing that I've

noticed is that black students and it's not just black students but invariably the most distracting element in the private room on the black student. And I realize that this is a product of the history. But I wonder how this can be a drag on how families but families can be brought to the idea that education is important that they have books in the home that they themselves free and inspire their children to read. How can we turn this around. I mean dealing with things as they are how can we turn this around. Well one of the things that people probably don't appreciate and need to

understand is that education has always been a very high value within African-American communities and that may be. But it doesn't I mean what happens within the school and what happens as a consequence of any number of factors for instance I went to an elementary school in high school in Alabama that was all African-American. And we were not a distraction. And so you have to balance that with your own particular experience. And we have to keep in mind that the African-American experience within this country is far more complex than any individual's experience. That the different communities is in different schools and even if we occasionally encounter something. That is different we should assume that it's reflective of the larger community and its basic culture. And let me give an example here. Suppose we looked at any group of high school students and we decided to determine the

values of their parents. From looking at the behavior of the students we would be mistaken right. If we look at the behavior of the students I mean if a students are smoking that doesn't mean that parents want them to smoke. OK. Yeah. The parents may very well not want them to smoke say their own drugs. Yeah I mean the parents want them on drugs. And so if you find African-American kids that you say in your classroom that are not behaving according the way you think they should it doesn't mean that parents want them to behave that way. So the values of education are really within the community and the parents and the churches and in the institutions. And so what teachers have to understand is that they is quite a foundation for them to build on that they have behind them. Grandparents and parents who want their kids to be well educated. I know my grandparents and my parents preached all the time about getting a good education. In fact the by word or the slogan in the African-American community was that you should get a good education because it's the one thing that people can't take from you. And so you had that foundation going into school. Now if someone

had just sort of watch my behave in school for instance I'll tell you no I don't mind going fast if if my teachers had allowed me to engage in recess all day I would have. But that wouldn't afflictive eyes of my mother. My grandmother. OK let me ask you a question. Did you have books in your home or did your parents read. We didn't have very many books in my home because we were you know we we didn't have the income to spare on books. My library. I want to. I was not actually but when I grew up in Alabama I was not allowed in the library because I was black. I couldn't go to public library. Well there you have some suggestions. I think you're. I appreciate your explanation. Do you have some suggestions about how it can be addressed. I think you know if if my advice to the educators would be first they have to realize that you know they have more to work with and they think I mean

sometimes when they look at students and they're not doing well the assumption is that parents don't really care about education they don't we devalue education. I would tell them you know go to those homes go to those churches or go into those communities and get a firsthand sense as to how the parents and the relatives and the institutions within those communities value education and then they will find that they have a lot of support on this side. How do you get up for it. I think what my teachers did if I didn't come to school or if I did something that was a distraction. The first thing they did was a make sure that my parents knew OK and that was a first way of tapping into it and to remind me that they knew. You know how my parents felt about my education so direct contact with direct involvement in the community and understanding of the culture the language of the community of the people makes a huge difference.

And in terms of educating the children of the community. OK. OK. Thank you very much. We have about 10 minutes left in this part of focus 580. We're speaking with James Anderson he's professor of education at University of Illinois talking about some of the educational experiences of African-Americans and public schools in this country and that we're in in part we're talking about it just so we also have an opportunity to remind people about a documentary series that Professor Anderson is included in and that will be airing on our station a lot of others next week looking at public education in the United States. Other questions welcome 333 W. Weil toll free 800 1:58 W. Weil. I don't know how much we can General and generalize from it but just for example here in our community in Champaign Urbana the schools in Champaign have been good have been dealing with this issue for some time now and particularly the fact that some people feel that that African-American students don't get the education

that they should and just fairly recently a survey was done of of staff and parents and students asking them about the racial climate in the champagne schools. One of the things that came out of that that was very striking is the fact that that black folks and white folks see things very differently. That is it tends to seem to tend to be the case that that white staff and parents tend to think things are you know going pretty well not that they're perfect but that they're going pretty well. And yet African-American staff and parents they say hey wait a minute we have some very serious problems here and there seems to be a real disconnect and sometimes it seems a significant disconnect between white teachers and black students. Why why should that be I mean is that it. Is that indeed some sort of a. Just a fact that people just somehow don't understand one another just in some ways don't even

don't speak the same language and that that's that's again that's a gap that needs to be bridged before you can deal with a lot of other things. I think there is you know we can sort of readily recognize that there's always a disconnect when you have a conflict when there when when you have stereotypes and things like that it's not just blacks and whites could be men and women around questions of sexism of gender relations. You have a disconnect. It could be with disability sexual orientation. There's always that disconnect. And you could do a survey on any of those things and you'll find that the people who lived those experiences have a very different view of the world and very different perceptions than people who do not live those experiences. And the big challenge in education is to bridge those gaps through dialogue and discussion and to be able to listen.

And so the difference is we should assume. The only thing we can do is to listen to people and appreciate the experience they have and think and think out some way you know to build on that. And what what what concerns me is whether we have within school a process for dialogue and a process of understanding that allow those differences to be appreciated and to know how to deal with them. I expect those differences to be there and not only there within us CUSA within our society but around the world where we have that kind of conflict. You also have a disconnect. What makes a difference in terms of ability to make progress is when we can have dialogue and we can understand those differences and move forward. Let's talk with a caller and champagne here is lie number two. Hello. Hello. Maybe backtracking a little bit to the need to make a personal one on one contact that's not just true in school and a fine Mayo personal example.

A young person in our family taught a semester in the local schools and had some. Some entry level classes that had juniors and seniors in them and when he contacted parents for various reasons several and that I must say they were poor both black and white. He never had a parent refuse to see him. He had several parents say and these were juniors in high school. You were the first teacher who ever asked me to come to the school and talk about my child. And I have a feeling as if someone talked about you know all the differences I think sometimes we talk about disconnect and hurdles when in fact on a personal one on one level where are uncomfortable with the differences. So we just kind of say well we just don't connect. When in

fact we really can. And I think the people who are educated and trained teachers have an obligation to try to make those connections. And that and I myself have worked with young people in various places and unless people were psychotic druggies or just you know. Evildoers I have never known a parent who didn't want something better for his child or her child. Never. Not here not in other countries. No place. And I just think there is a way we can come together on this. And I think children deserve that and I hope you know what seems to me your message is kind of that. And I I hope you know we can do better. I appreciate the comment and you want to comment on that any further. You know I think it's well stated. Well I appreciate the call we just have about five minutes less actually and I do have some other

callers so I hope the caller forgive me for going on here the next person up in line is in Glen Ellyn this is line 4. Hello. Yes hello. One of the factors that I didn't hear your guest mentioned and I think it's a very important factor of course I'm up here in Chicago land area is I'm a university graduate you know annoying you know and I wouldn't think to teach in some of the dreadful crime ridden areas of Chicago. Somebody's ever going to American areas and years ago when I opened up my business that's a very first thing I thought of his work I open my business where my customers wouldn't feel threatened I could do some business. Many times you hear about teachers shot at Mog and you can't get quality teachers into those areas you can't blame people for not teaching in those areas. So I think I think it would behoove people to try to reduce the crime in those areas. I think even if we would grant that there are problems in areas we don't decide not to teach our young people and not to to

work on problems I don't think that teaches a Columbine High School are going to say well you know after all these killings we're not going to go to school and going to go right back there and try to do the job. And so if you have violence in school or you have problems in society you don't just walk away from it. You know but what I was saying is first of all there is discussion there about the lack of financial tax base in certain parts of the cities to support the schools while the reason you don't have financial tax base is because businessmen won't open their businesses where they're where they feel threatened. Well Rob they're shot in sort of quietly like for example in Chicago land area Chicago land schools or the Chicago city schools are dreadful but the schools in the suburbs and of course this is a sweeping statement the schools in the suburbs. Our very high quality is very well supported because that's where the businesses are. Well I think you know it's more complex than that. For example you would recognize the fact that in the place like Chicago there are a lot of commercial a lot of property that's not taxed and since

the institutions universities are not taxed the Chicago Historical Museum that you probably go and take a benefit take advantage of is not tax. So in some places there's a lot of property that's not taxed for public education. Yeah and so it's not that Chicago is property pool as we know Chicago is a major commercial center. Well surely But I mean you can't blame a university educated person for saying I don't want to teach in an area where I have to cure a machine gun and wear a bulletproof vest. Surely you can see the reasoning in that. That's not true though. That's that's really exaggerated in stereotype in these communities I talked I did my practice teaching on the West Side of Chicago at Marshall High School. I went there every day and I didn't wear bulletproof vests. I didn't carry machine gun and I never had a problem. So I think the reality that people are engaged in on a daily basis is very different than a lot of the popular stereotypes that we carry around and I had. You know well thanks. Let's go to one more Crystal Lake line one. Well again I have observed that 20 schools in up in the north still in

night and I don't see any any bias against blacks or you know other people by whites in fact they get along so very well. I want and I think those that are just misbehave really need like tension in there and they were tagged to get it from even a substitute every good teacher perhaps. But anyway I think the FBI withheld evidence for 20 years about this four girls bombed in a in in Birmingham I think they seem to collude with the club plan a crank. And they seemed institutionalized racism too. I will say the FBI works with the lumber industry in Ukiah California when it kept them. If you didn't help then I think you forgive me but I think we're straying just a little bit from the topic. And I'm not sure that we can work much with those comments and in any case I think we are probably about the place that we're going to have to stop. We have covered a lot of ground. Maybe strayed just a bit from the place that we started.

What what what thought do you think you'd like to leave folks with. Well I think it's a thought that's behind the documentary on American schools is that we are at a point where we really do have to think about the role of public education in a multiracial democracy for the 21st century. And a lot of questions being raised about vouchers and school choice and privatization and lot of these questions revolve around own conceptions of what is the future role of public education. And there's no better time than to have a dialogue around that question. Well for that for that that we will stop just because we here at the end of the time for as well. Well I'd like to say for us Anderson thanks very much for being here. Thank you for inviting me. James Anderson is professor of education at University of Illinois one of the people that you will see featured in this documentary. And I mention one more time that it's titled school the story of American public education. So four part series that will air on w wild TV next week Monday and Tuesday the first two parts on Monday the second on Tuesday between 8:00 and 10:00 both of those nights there's also companion book to the series the same titled school the story of American

public education. It's published by the Beacon Press.