Focus 580; Mi Moto Fidel: Motorcycling Through Castros Cuba

In this part of focus 580 We're talking with travel writer Christopher Baker. In 1994 he signed a contract to write a guide book on Cuba. Two books he notes had been published previously and in each one of those the authors had travel around by car and he says that he wanted to do something different. And so he got himself a motorcycle got him and the bike into Cuba and spent three months traveling around the country put 7000 miles on the motorcycle getting to see parts of Cuba that probably a lot of other travelers would not. And he has written about his experiences in a book that came out earlier this year in the winter. The title of his book is Me Moto Fidel motor cycling through Castro's Cuba and it's published by National Geographic Adventure press. Our guest this morning Christopher Baker is the author of another book in the National Geographic travel series that went on Costa Rica. He's also written guides to Cuba and have. Ana he's a four time winner of the Lowell Thomas travel journalism award and contributes to periodicals including

Newsweek and L.A. Times. He grew up in England and now makes his home in California. And he's joining us this morning by telephone as we talk with Christopher Baker. Your questions and comments are certainly welcome the number if you're here in Champaign Urbana where we are 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us and that is eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5 so if you would be making a long distance call use that number we'll pay for it. Three three three W I L L and toll free 800 1:58 W while up at any point here you have questions you can give us a call. Mr. BAKER. Hello. Good morning thanks for talking with us today. Welcome it's a delight to be with you. The year apparently were pretty excited at the prospect of being able to go to Cuba in the first place. Well absolutely it's something I wanted to do for a long time for many many years. And when I finally came to fruition let me tell you it was one of the most exciting trips that I've ever

made in my many many years as a professional travel writer. So what was it that you found so attractive about Cuba. Well firstly I think it's because it was. Ostensibly off limits and it was an unknown quantity and also a very essential etc. but there was something about breaking the barrier that I was going to be going in there to write a guidebook that would help also break down barriers and I think it was exciting in so many different ways. And also as was it connects with a youthful interest in socialism. Well that was right. You may have read the book and certainly when I was at university I was a very left wing by Americans and it's not atypical in Europe of course for a socialist. So I saw a shape of our own Fidel Castro as my heroes and I went into Cuba with somewhat of a naive what I now see as a naive pasta but very very rah rah rah the revolution back then. And part of the reason part of your interest in going by motorcycle was

that in fact say one of the heroes of the revolution did some traveling around South America was it to Argentina. Well actually it was out in Tinian the set off from Argentina old Naughton and travelled through childe leg and up through Europe and into Peru and they had his friend traveling together had to eventually abandon the motorcycle. But she wrote a most magnificent wonderful book called Shea diaries that wasn't published until 1995. And I think Robert Redford is producing a movie of that right now but you have an inspiration in a sense. So the idea of being able to go to Cuba and tool around on a motorcycle had had some appeal on that level. Yes thankfully and now I just realized for the first time that maybe Freud would see something. Well I suppose and I suppose to the idea of the motorcycle would be great mobility may be greater than you would have travelling in other other kinds of ways. Very true in fact it got me into some backwater says that I could never have done on

four wheels and one of most of my my most cherished memories was at the Bay of Pigs. I just visited the sites of the CIA landings in 1961 visited the museum of this there and it's an area surrounded by mangroves and scrub. And it was late in the day and I knew I was heading for a city close in for a gust and I knew if I kept on the road it will be nightfall but by the time I got there. So I cut through the underbrush along and Duro trail and fortunately my motorcycle wasn't enduro and I came across a bullet riddled beast. Twenty six bombs in the undergrowth that I felt I was probably the first foreigner of it to see it and that was just. I can't tell you how I felt it was absolutely marvelous to feel that I was exploring unexplored territory. I suppose some people knowing about Cuba and hearing about your intention to go and ride on a motorcycle might. Given the fact that fuel is rationed and the fact that if you had a problem it might be tough to find a mechanic and

given fact if you needed parts you might as well forget it. That is all. All of this was kind of taking a big risk that somewhere along the line you might have a breakdown and have to give up the whole deal. Well certainly not give up the whole deal but breakdown yes and in fact I did have a breakdown and one of the anecdotes in the book tells that story. It was not the motorcycles fault I had a wonderful BMW. That I am no mechanic but the great thing about Cuban is they are the most gracious willing hospitable generous people in the world I love them to death and when I got into mechanical difficulties. Just because I'm a total mechanical moron crowd gathered around as it always did when I stopped and they watched me fumbling with my tool kit and in the end they just gently pushed me aside and took the tools themselves and finished the job for me. I refused to accept any money it was just this wonderful display of the graciousness of Cuban people. Well I suppose one of the things that I think everyone talks about who has been there

is that all of the American automobiles from the 1950s that are still there and that of necessity people have to keep running and do all kinds of wacky things to them so I suppose that that that alone should be a tribute and testament to the mechanical abilities of humans. Well they are absolute wizards and I'm glad you brought that question because the book I'm working on right now is a photo essay book on the old American cars in Cuba. I guess think the Cubans are not committed to own modern vehicles and so they keep the pre-revolution of vehicles running. And they're not always in best condition as you can imagine they used on a daily basis and parts are not available so people actually make their own pot. Say they take tractor engines out of Russian tractors and put them in Cadillac to get greater mileage because diesel is available and gasoline is very short and they become mechanical models and they're just absolute geniuses. GIVE THEM ANY tool and they can fix something that might take a while to figure out but they'll do it.

Maybe I should quickly introduce Again our guest We're talking with Christopher Baker he's a travel writer. He's written about Costa Rica as well as Cuba and he's the author of this book that we're talking about here that based on his travels by motorcycle around Cuba. It's titled memo to Fidel motorcycling Through Castro's Cuba and it's published by a National Geographic Adventure press and questions are welcome. He'd like to call in 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Something that certainly comes through very very strongly in the stories you tell in the book is almost without exception just how a warm and generous and friendly. The people you met were. It's one of the finest qualities of Cuba. I'm not sure to what degree as a result of the revolution I think to a great degree it is. Four decades of revolutionary spirit of being absorbed by the people but I think I suspect that it was a quality known of Cubans before the revolution also. And I have so many

anecdotes in the book of Cubans who just demonstrated the most wonderful hospitality the most wonderful graciousness let me just give you one example very early on in the book just after I'd left Vanna I came across a tobacco farmer who invited me into his wife. Oh enter into his home and his wife greeted me too. They were believers in the revolution and his wife said Why do some America treat us so hard it said Croce break to America. And then as I was leaving I didn't defend the embargo. I didn't really say anything about it but as I was leaving he put a whole bunch of tomatoes into my hand to take away with me. He didn't care that I was American it was he understood that governmental policy is not a reflection of how individuals can relate. And for me it was a wonderful entree to the graciousness of Cubans. And that's perhaps a touching example because one of the things you learn in the book is the fact that food is often very scarce and that people don't have a lot to eat don't have a

very diet and for someone like that to share what they had with an outsider that would be quite a generous act. Well in fact Cubans get along by sharing in fact one of the things that upset me at first was that I never ever heard thank you when I gave things myself. And it's it's partly because some Cubans just take giving for granted not so much taking but giving. And I have seen the most extreme examples for example if you're if you witness some Cuban used together and one of them gets a coke they will just pass it around between them that one person buys it for themself they will automatically be passed around. But the extreme example I remember were two twin twin girls each of whom had a rollerskate one apiece. So so so presumably they they took turns wearing them. Well no no no that's what I mean they actually sort of on roller skates. Also they actually sort of skated holding onto each other side as I write it.

Is you know I think what one of the things that I think perhaps people have have talked about in at least that was kind of thing that we used to see in Soviet Union perhaps we see it in elsewhere in social societies is that in fact they talk about it being classless and they talk about everybody being the same but it's clear that there are haves and have nots. Oh yeah. Is is that also the case in Cuba I mean are there some some people that are very prosperous have everything that they could want and and seem to be doing very very well. That's absolutely true certainly not at the level of material wealth accumulation of America. You know in fact Cuba has tremendous paucity end and hardship in the vast majority of people in the cities who live very very hard life. The governmental system has ruined the economy and the embargo is of course not helped. And the government finds it very difficult to supply even you can meet its

ration rations that it's supposed to give. But. Are and always have been since the revolution. Those people who derive benefit from the revolution in favor of others now. One example would be you have to be on display yourself as being a good revolutionary to get by in Cuber if you're not you're really in a bad way because the government just cut you out. And then there are the officials and other individuals who either through corrupt means or because their favored because their communist party members do very well and the other exception there is two other groups one is a sports figures and key figures are well looked after because I think they don't want them staying in the States or Europe if they go on cultural trips etc. so they are they are singularly committed to a modern motor vehicle. For example nobody else is there are allowed to retain royalties and cetera nobody else's. And the second one is that because tourism is proving booming right now bringing in

dollars. Individuals for example a doctor let's say who may as a Cuban doctor $20 equivalent a month is tending to become a tracked taxi driver or doormen because they can get tips and Kuber is very much a dollar economy these days. If you're a Cuban and you want toothpaste a toilet paper you better have dollars. The government is selling to its own population in dollars not for pesos. So this is a mad scramble for dollars and those people who are now have gained access to contacts with tourists again in dollars. So you are having a broader division of those that have and have nots. So there has been then this now a spring abyssal entrepreneurial economy where people are if they can they they have the spare room they would rent out a room they are some people who actually have little restaurants or cafes in their homes had they'd barely do whatever they possibly can do to bring in some. Money and hard currency if that's possible.

Well sure in fact there's a Cuban would the result of that to resolve. Life is so high that the Cuban to get buy by resolving things and they are those people who are renting rooms who are now legally permitted to own restaurants and the very few people who are permitted to self-employment live under a very restrictive regime in terms of taxation a set for the government had to open up to private initiatives in 1993 94 when conditions were so desperately bad in Cuba. But the Cuban economy has rebounded much thanks to the growth of tourism which is huge right now by the way. And so it does not want to see successful entrepreneurs in this begun to squeeze most people out. Is it is it possible for or how how would one work if you were an American and you wanted to go as a tourist. Can you do that very easily. No more difficult than going down to Mexico right. Quite frankly it is that easy. Now let's deal with the legalities. It's not illegal to travel to Cuba. It's merely

illegal to spend money. OK it's kind of a catch 22. There are over within provisions of US law certain categories of individuals such as myself a journalist who can go legally without asking the U.S. government permission and spend money. As far as the Cubans are concerned you don't need to do anything other than step on a plane in Jamaica Bahamas Mexico or Canada or wherever. Flights of Savannah on a daily basis and you'll get your Cuban visa as you get on the plane. And so many thousands have the exact numbers at hand many thousands of Americans choose that illegal route every year. Last year was about 40000 U.S. citizens travel to Cuba illegally and about one hundred and sixty thousand Cuban American citizens went to Cuba legally. That's about 200000. And is it to get. For a lot of those people that the attraction that it's a place that you're really not supposed to go out I would think that if what you wanted was a tropical beach experience there are other places in the Caribbean that you could have that I'm sure

I'm happy to report that I think the majority of Americans who go to Cuba do so because they understand that Cuba offers them something very enriching. Most people don't actually go because they want to to make a show of breaking the embargo breaking the law that's not the reason that made just kind a little spice to the fire. Most people go because they understand that Cuban culture is so rich. Look at the music and the dance forms and that we're all very much into right now more than before because of the success of the Bonavista social club because of the success of Valdez et cetera. So there's that culture. There's also I think there's some tremendous affinity to this link that goes back to pre-revolutionary days a desire to see Cuba before the old Cuba as it were before it passes away to see those old American cars on the road to to explore what is an absolutely amazing legacy of architectural styles that goes back centuries. And yes there are beautiful

beaches the Americans don't go for the beaches. The Canadians go for the beaches. The Italians go for the girl. The Americans I'm happy to report gopher culture. We have a caller to talk with when we'll do that right now in champagne wine 1. Hello. I heard a very extensive system of community garden to help like people after the embargo. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that. Tell me more about it happen like you talk. Okay thank you very much. Yes. What happened was in after the collapse of the Soviet Union the Soviet bloc at the end of the 80s Cuba lost all its phosphates all the things that it uses for agriculture including gasoline for transportation and malnourishment reappeared in Cuba. The the situation of producing food of moving food around was just so devastated that there was no food available. And the state

controlled it still does for the most part controlled agriculture entirely as it controls the entire economy and political system. But this condition was so bad that in 1993 they began to permit private sale of food and they also initiated a very tremendous program of utilizing spare lots within cities for community gardens. Usually on a co-operative basis of local communities and then they put in irrigation systems etc. so that helps. Remarkably in reintroducing a lot of the kinds of foodstuffs the disappeared four decades ago quite frankly garlic etc. This is a renowned example garlic disappeared from QB years and years and years ago the state itself would cost bureaucrats from the agricultural system remember that very important and so God disappeared because the bureaucrats when thinking about growing garlic in there were no private incentives for anybody to do so. And interestingly enough in the mid 80s

Castro briefly experimented with committing private enterprise in the farm system. And as we all know the private enterprise system is the most productive system we know and suddenly Golic reappeared in the market and the Private Thomas was so successful it cost Castro quit the program immediately and rave ranted about Millionaire Gallic pro-US. But anyway that's off the point and community gardens have been of a great success the found throughout Cuber and they've done much to put lettuce etc back in the hands back on the tables of most Cubans. We are about the midpoint here of this part of focus 580 Our guest is Christopher Baker he's a travel writer. He's the author of Costa Rica in the National Geographic Traveler guidebook series he's also written books on. And have Anna and has written for publications including Newsweek and The L.A. Times. The book that we're talking about here this morning based on his travels by motorcycle around Cuba is titled mi Moto Fidel and it's published by National Geographic Adventure press. It came out in

February so it's in bookstores if you want to look at it and it's a good read if you like travel writing or if you're interested in Cuba you might pick it up and take a look at it. Now the questions here are also welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5. I'm sure that when people talk to you about your experiences and ask questions that they're always interested in a couple of things for sure and one would be as you travel around talking with people. People what sort of things they told you about the United States that is what they how they felt about the United States what they they thought about it. And this the fact that officially their country was at war with the United States. Well officially still is as far as far as Castro is concerned. Castro loves the scenario quite frankly had this tremendous surprising if if and when I was in Cuba that he works very hard to maintain the embargo but that's beside the point. How do Cubans feel Cuber is a Schizophrenia Society in the countryside.

Most probably a majority of people still support the revolution in the urban settings. It's very very different. Castro hangs on by a thread most people are sick and tired of the regime but they have mixed feelings also because America Cubans or heartedly love Americans. They have tremendous affinity with America that baseball fanatics they follow what's going on in the American leagues. They love American things everybody's questing at least the youth the questing Nike and Coca-Cola etc. which are readily available for dollars in Cuba. But they understand that the embargo does not serve them well on a daily basis. But most Cubans that you will talk to and you will never find this have this conversation on the street. People are too frightened to have a political conversation in the street generally. They they understand that Castro really is the one who pulls the strings on the embargo. He works very hard to maintain it. That is not to excuse

Washington I personally think the embargo is a disgrace. And but it's not really the cause of the problems in Cuba just makes the situation worse. I think most Cubans love Americans and don't like the fact of the treatment they've got from the American government and polluting and particularly this is very relevant how America in a sense stole independence from Cuber in 1898. That really plays on the Cuban psyche as does the fact that America supported some pretty ruthless and nasty dictators during this last century the 20th century. But you're seen to be making the argument that as far as Fidel Castro is concerned he's perfectly happy with relations continuing to be bad. Between Cuba and the United States because that it gives him it it's useful to have this big nasty enemy here just those those few miles across the water from from him.

That's true. DAVID Yeah there are two reasons One is that pragmatic reason for his own political purposes he wants the embargo it serves him very well he can jail dissidents etc. whenever the major ruckus with the USA. You can blame the US embargo for that from this devastation that he's wrought upon the Cuban economy etc. but also more importantly perhaps and most people never even think about this is you have to understand the sick psychology of Fidel Castro. I perhaps don't have time to really go into that right now but suffice to say that his psychology is such that he sees himself as David to Goliath. This is the role he has cast himself as a man with the most amazingly huge ego and he sees himself as David to Goliath. He needs to play the role of Safia just as he kind of modeled himself on Hussey Mati the nationalist hero of 19th century Cuba. But in a more think glorious way. And so he loves them by going to the game he actually doesn't

see the fight and that's how he sees it against the USA as a game. That fulfills various emotional needs that he has. Well here I know there are I'm sure another one of those questions that people always ask you is what do you think's going to happen in the future when we know sooner or later Mr. Castro will pass and that might be a time when things would change. What do you think Woods is likely to happen in Cuba when Fidel Castro is not there anymore. OK well first let me say that we may have all passed away before then. They are renowned for long to longevity. He just recently helped celebrate the 150 birthday of his auntie is 74 years old and he has no intention of going anywhere. But what will happen. I keep my fingers crossed that there will not be violence that ice collates into something street violence. There will be street violence I see no alternative. There will be a power feud.

Raul Castro is younger brother is number two. He is named Now to be the successor. He runs the military in the secret police. He is despised in Cuba except by all but the most. Adn revolutionaries he does not have the charisma or the brilliance of his brother and Fidel Castro is a genius. And nor does he have any of the affection and there is so much pent up desire for change a new beginning for openness and freedom in Cuba that when Fidel passes those people will be out on the streets while Raul bristly will have the police out on the streets. What the Cuban-Americans do in Florida will be critical. My interpretation is probably a bridge probably that there are sufficient people in Cuba who understand who desire leadership that takes Cuba in a new direction. They can't operate openly right now obviously they give a hug and stuff. But Agrawal Castro may not last

long domestically it depends what his support is within the military. But what the Cuban-Americans do in Florida is critical and they will not be sitting back in Miami twiddling their thumbs. They will want to be in Cuba. What Washington does to support them will also be critical. I do not and cannot envisage a scenario that has a happy happy beginning. I think there's going to be violence how it will shake out. I do not know you know given the past experience that we've seen with the United States involving itself in the politics of other countries. It To me it's not particularly encouraging. It's not a tall encouraging across. Not many people are aware that USA has a history of at least three occasions after 1989 sending in troops and Marines in support of domestic governments in Cuba and unfortunately the the extremist elements of the Cuban-American community in Florida has bought Washington

opinions and support particularly in a Republican administration. And there are plenty of folks within that community who have their eye on the throne who would be the next president of Cuba. And so not a good scenario at all moderates right now do not have a voice. There are plenty of moderate intelligent Cuban-Americans within the Florida community but they don't have Washington's ear. And unfortunately the extremist element too and that they'll be they'll be in there in Cuba they'll be trying to make sure that after Fidel Raul does not manage to secure his position. I think you were talking earlier about why it is that some people want to go to Cuba. And the fact that some people want to go to see it as it is now knowing that when things change it could change. Very very quickly and one you know perhaps the worst case scenario that some people might imagine is that overnight Cuba would become like Miami.

Well let that that's true in fact you're beginning to see that already this year Cuba will top two million tourists for the first time it got almost two million tourists last year that's a lot of tourists and their influence is quite paramount. And what's happening right now is that Cuba itself the Cuban government has initiated the equivalent of a Kentucky Fried Chicken a McDonald's etc. they actually make KFC and McDonald's Some seem like go make cuisine but that's the point. We're beginning to see this kind of development. Fortunately many of the build new types of buildings of the Chinese by the way putting up a new high rise hotel in downtown Atlanta quite attractive five no problem with that but I do have a problem with the wonderful Malecon sea front along with an eye which is quite derelict right now it is being restored but it has no advertisement and has no stores no banks of any kind it's just beautiful old buildings somewhat

derelict but being a start as I say I do not like to think of the Malecon with it. KFC is next McDonald's in its neon that it ties in science and that's inevitable it's the future of the world unfortunately. It's already happening. We have some other callers to bring into the conversation and we'll do that. They came in they're both in Urbana. We'll start line one. Hello. Yes. Would the best policy of the US government for removing Darko Milicic nor would you suggest for the future of Cuba. Well I think the saneness both thank you for the question that I think the sane ist policy is for Washington to begin to prepare for a day when Fidel is passed and the only way to do that I feel is to lift the embargo and to have whatever moderating influence it can now I want to say this. If the

US embargo is lifted as a lead unilateral decision for example from Washington it really I don't believe it will really change things because Fidel Castro is the man who determines what foreign corporations and to Cuba. I personally believe that he does not want to see U.S. corporations in Cuba and some of his rationales of various sound rationales. One of the wonderful things that the Cuban revolution has done and Fidel Castro has done he has protected Cuban cultural integrity. When you look at Puerto Rico and I'm currently writing a book and put the RICO use in the traffic jam and the McDonald's and KFC and Pizza Huts everywhere. This is what is protected Cuba from now for various reasons some of which I've already mentioned. If the U.S. embargo is lifted I actually don't think Castro will permit U.S. corporations. With some exceptions to go into Cuba so things will not change overnight. But nonetheless I really do think Washington needs to begin to engage Castro on a non antagonistic basis even though I believe Castro enjoys

that. That basis. It has to begin to reach out it has to reach out to the moderates and listening to the moderate Cuban-American voice in Florida. And it has to negotiate directly just as we're doing with North Korea these days certainly as we've been doing with Vietnam and China for some time. That's the only route the same route that will help to avoid the kind of catastrophic potential scenario in a post-Castro setting that I previously described. How much sympathy is there in Cuba for the Cuban him. Expatriate Florida and I don't think there's much. Well let me say this. Most Cubans if they do not have family members who have left no people who do I think they have tremendous empathy for those who made the difficult journey by raft for example. And they're somewhat jealous that they can't enjoy some of

the levels of living for example that are offered in American society. But the Cuban press the Cuban media are obviously full of very negative commentary about the Cuban-American community which let's face it the Allen Gonzales scenario gave a perfect example of their extremism and they lost a tremendous degree of support in the U.S.A. whatever support they had among the general population and certainly in Cuba. I think most Cubans are aware of that. The extremist elements of the Cuban-American community in Florida would probably have little sympathy for the kind of socialist health system and the kind of education system etc. They're very fearful that they will those people who have gained most people have gained some benefits from health education etc. that they would lose those qualities of life if the Cuban Americans came back and managed to to position somebody in Fidel

St.. At one time at least many of the early expatriates were actually still united with the mafia and you with them are going back into Cuba. What the maffia comeback Well I'm sure that to be the matter in America more likely the maffia in it. Italy I think even Colombia and that would be a desperately terrible scenario. Certainly there are individuals within the Cuban-American community in Florida who have very strong ties to the old Batista regime and even perhaps the mobsters I don't want to overplay that. I think that the whole mobster scenario is being overplayed quite frankly. Period. But I wouldn't want to see it I don't see the maffia coming back in from the States. Probably Italy Colombia very quickly the idea obviously depends on on what kind of form of government succeeds Fidel's government

would be the worst possible. It's an area I suppose that what would be I'm sorry. Chaos following chaos. Yes. Heaven forbid that chaos happens but it's going to be a very difficult thing I think to avoid chaos quite frankly. If Raul manages to suppress the kind of expression that will be out on the streets for a new change in the way that he can do and will do well using the military it will be a very bloody affair I'm sure. As I say I can't really see under contemporary conditions a very easy fluid way following Fidel's passing for a new society are a new government to sustain itself without bloodshed. Roy diverse. Three will die first round will probably what was interesting the last time I was in Havana. Throughout Cuba about three months ago

for the first time I noticed that sense at the rallies that they're having every weekend right now anti-American rallies throughout the nation. One is beginning to see throughout Cuba for the first time not just Viva Fidel but Viva Fidel. Even if I will would suggest there is already preparation perhaps for the day of Raul becoming number one. Thank you thanks for the call. Let's continue yours another person in Urbana this is line two. Hello. Yeah I keep in the mind that you're a travel writer I don't know if I buy your your idea that the embargo is such a great thing for Fidel personally because even given your idea that it's an ego thing and all this I would guess. I mean I would think and I think Noam Chomsky would you know. Has aired the same

opinion. That would be far more to gain by being a you know an example for the rest of the hemisphere a positive example. And if. And furthermore when you when you when you reduce or reduce eliminating the embargo to essentially foreign investment you keep talking about how you know Castro wants to keep out the KFC in the pizza that I mean that isn't the only way for foreign trade to go. You know it didn't threaten the Farrelly have to involve American corporations going in. And also when you say that the people in Miami are going to have a lot to say about what happens when the when the caster is no longer with us.

I was just I was afraid to refer to what is being called the best on the side of you know on our side. The best biography of Castro was the gorilla prince The Untold Story of the Telecaster by Georgiana and Geir. I know in there she says that there is no way that exiles are released in an air interview in relation to that book's coming out in 1901. She is quite sure that there is no way that that the exiles or expatriates are going to be the ones who will rule Cuba in the future or have very much to do with it. Basically because he's been in power so long that Cuba has changed so much. She points out that it's now you know almost half or even more black. And she she says that that and this was a very a lot of research when in the bush she's

kind of you know extrapolating from that to give opinions about the future here but she says that they're not going to welcome a quote upper class white Cubans from Miami who haven't been there for 30 years as their next political ruling class. So I think that's kind of wishful thinking. So you might want. A comment but I did have a question after that. OK Chris I appreciate those comments. I'm very familiar with his book The Prince she actually makes the very strongest arguments of anybody I've heard about why Fidel loves the embargo as a game. But you're absolutely right in terms of the white upper echelon of the Cuban-American community not being welcome in in Cuba by so many of the Cubans probably even a vast majority of the Cubans who are very fearful of what they'll bring. But nonetheless my argument was that they're not going to be sitting on the thumbs because they both firmly believe

themselves I'm talking about the Cuban-Americans and in Florida that they have the in a sense preordained right to to dictate what will follow Fidel and they currently have Washington's backing and therefore they cannot be dismissed as a sideline entity they will be powerful players in what follows the Delphic good or bad probably for bad but only time will tell. And you have a question. Well I think what you just said or the U.S. will play a larger role may play a larger role and that the Miami and as well have the U.S. is here which is kind of a different thing. Just curious if you were there when Castro threatened to go to the WTO in Seattle and cause a ruckus up here. And and I guess what I'm looking for is as a tourist down there just how how

to new platoon where you to be what was going on internationally. I don't see myself as a tourist by the way. I made about 20 of it is to Cuba or I go in about four times a year so spend a lot of time in Cuba and I keep myself very much abreast whether I'm at home or in Cuba of what's going on politically. Because yes I was a well well aware of the Seattle scenarios. I'm aware of Castro's praise for the demonstrators in Quebec recently etc. here as I see it and this is not to exonerate Washington of any of its place and plays towards Castro and Cuba but the way I see it Castro loves to take a jibe at the USA and blame it for the things that it is not necessarily to blame for. And he loves stirring the tiger even when the tiger goes to sleep he pokes it. He loves the game but the Cubans know that he was thinking about

going to the WTO and Yandle And then if so how did he explain not going. Yes they were they were actually and he explained it. He couldn't guarantee his safety against assassination attempts if I recall it are of him being detained as well as Pinochet in London. Thank you thank you. I think actually the time that you went to Cuba in 1990 7. That you write about in this book in fact this this was a time when there was great tension between the two countries because it was just after these the Cuban shot down these planes that were flown by this very benign American group. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up actually it was. And if every 1996 very important because even though that journey by motorcycle it was my fifth or sixth journey into Cuba at the time I still went into Cuba at that time very much of a supporter of the revolution and I still believe the revolution has done what some wonderful things

very Rara Fidel as a supporter. And it was critical because the week before I leave I went into Cuba. Those two planes had been shut down as you suggested. I was in Cuba during a period when there was incredible tension between the U.S. and Cuba Cuba was on high alert USA out of Washington the Straits of Florida. And the reason for that was the shooting down of those two planes happened by no coincidence during the Republican primaries in Florida during the presidential election. The end result was within two weeks Clinton was forced to sign a bill that Jesse Helms rushed to Congress that Clinton threatened he would never ever sign into law. Because it was presidential year and Florida are Cuban-Americans who are up in arms demanding action against Castro. Clinton was forced to sign a bill he detested to win or lose Florida basically to try and win Florida during the election period. That bill the Helms-Burton Bill had tremendous impact in terms of raising the the embargo

and are increasing the terms of the embargo. And I realized when I was doing Cuba I was trying to make sense of it because the Clinton administration was trying a new a new easier route with with Iran it was reaching out to Castro in some ways. And I thought if this is what Castro wants he continues to harp on about he wants a new beginning with with America. Why on earth did he shoot down those two planes during the election period. And he knew it would result in the Helms-Burton law will last with. Exactly and he knew it would result in the passage of the law because he is a brilliant chess player. Gabriel Garcia Marquez said that he had the most incredible ability to foresee the consequences of an event of this for this reaches. And so he played America on that one and it made me realize I had a tremendous epiphany Oh my god shut down the two planes be on purpose and I was late to indicated it was called Operation Scorpion. FBI Central figured it all out to us but that was the scenario.

We just have a couple minutes left in just a good guy. The fact that it's dangerous to make sweeping assumptions about people and places have ebing said that it's also true that people in places do seem to have spirits that that set them apart from other people so that when you go certain places you do have this you know you do want to say yeah I can tell you what these people are like what the place is like and this is is it. If if one was going to do that about Cuba how how does one describe it would. What would you say in a few lines I really would define Cuba and its people. I think that's very easy. I think most people who go to Cuba cry they cry because they're so uplifted by the generosity to the facelessness and the spirit of the Cuban people facing such difficulties and they do face difficulties but they know how to enjoy life they know how to communicate as human beings to human beings. And they really display that as much as any people I know in a

way that just leaves you renders you feeling like you have just visited some kind of Utopia social utopia and I don't want to say that in the sense that endorses Castro's revolution this music may be interpreted but that the people in Cuba are just the most incredibly hospitable gracious and C-list to we didn't even talk about it. It's a place that seems to be very seductive in a very literal sort of way. Absolutely and the setting it's like a Hollywood station abandoned in 1959 absolutely incredible surroundings. Well there's much more we could talk about but unfortunately we're going to have to stop because we've used the time for people who want to read the book it's titled me Moto Fidel motorcycling Through Castro's Cuba published by National Geographic Adventure press by Christopher Baker and Mr. Baker thank you very much. David it's been a pleasure I appreciate the opportunity.