Focus 580; Other-Worldly And This-Worldly Piety And The Islamic Revival

In this part of focus 580 we will be talking with Francis Robinson he is professor of the history of South Asia at University of London and he is visiting the campus to give a talk. He will be speaking as part of the miller series. We have had many of the speakers on this program over the years so that we can bring them to a an audience a little bit larger than the one that could attend the talks here in Champaign Urbana. He'll be speaking this afternoon at 4 o'clock. This is in the faculty center on the campus on the third floor it's on Illinois Street in Urbana. And as is the case with all these programs they're free and open to the public and anyone who is interested in attending should feel welcome. If you'd like to stop by and of course here on the program questions are welcome to and we will be talking here on this program about some of the ideas that he'll be sharing in his talk this afternoon. Looking at a little bit of the history of Islam and specifically looking at how it is over time that the kind of influence or focus has has shifted. And I suppose the appropriate metaphor is the pendulum because

this does go back and forth between a kind of orientation by Muslims that says the important goal is the next world and moving toward the next world. Between that sort of orientation and one that says well what happens in this world is important as well. And in particular he makes the argument that it was within say the last couple of hundred years the pendulum has swung and the this worldly orientation particularly because of over that time the growing influence of the West and Western powers in the Islamic world. We'll talk a little bit about how this has played out and perhaps what it means for the future. The Muslim world and also relations between the Muslim world and the West and of course questions here on the program are welcome as well. The number here in Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. So if you're here locally use that number we do also have the toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us that is 800

to 2 2 9 4 5 5 all we ask of callers are the people just try to be brief so that we can keep our program moving but of course anyone who is interested in calling is welcome to do that. Well thank you very much for being with us because I mean Appreciate it. I suppose to begin it's worth making the point that and I suppose in that Islam is no different than a lot of other faiths in this respect that is there has been over time this kind of tension and it has gone back and forth between saying what's really important to us is is is where we are going is the next world is not this one. And this idea that says no one with the way we live our lives right now it's important it has spiritual significance is important now. And this is something that that has the major focus has shifted back and forth. I think that's absolutely right and I must say I think you explained the situation very well. I think it's important to say that right at the beginning from the beginning Islam was the

face of this worldly action. And it was only as it came to develop that an otherworldly Sufism as we call it is amik mysticism the can to develop and the idea that in a sense. There was a mystic way down which one travelled finally trying to merge oneself with God in the long run. Look these two attendances have been in tension for much of his amik history and certainly for much of the early part of Islamic history from the 13th century. The emphasis began to move slightly towards the mystic and particularly on the one hand as a result of it. A very powerful infusion of these ideas into its nomic poetry which in an oral culture is the prime art form. But secondly because of

the massive expansion of the world and the inclusiveness of the otherworldly understanding and labeled as interact very effectively with other ways of understanding God and draw all that is otherwise into its frame. What happened over the past 200 years you associated it particularly with the emergence of Western power in the most and why. I think it's 30 important to understand the the the move towards this well this was already beginning before. So it's if not just a reaction to the Western presence it's actually instinctive in that part of the internal dynamics of the faith which will then set even more strongly as they come to interact with the Western presence. Now one interesting thing I'd like to set alongside this is this this move towards an emphasis on if you like of faith of social action

takes place not just in the south. You can also find it in Hinduism and Buddhism and Sikhism. In the 19th and 20th centuries this is an interesting question why should this move to a faith or social action be common to several of the world's religions in the 19th and 20th century. It's not just an Islamic thing. Well I think that you and other scholars have drawn some parallels between this movement and the Protestant Reformation. In what sense are these two things. Do they express similar coins kinds of impulses I think. Well I think they do. Many of the processes one associates with if you like the newly developing Protestants will process is a perfection of being able to get to the texts yourself because printed images of the Muslim world in the

19th century and the sacred texts are only translated by knowledge into indigenous languages and 19th century. So a process which took place in 16th century Europe is also taking place in 900 20th century most and well the people being able to engage with the text themselves. And regarding Sivaji already said. Achievements in being able to put that guidance into action. If it's if you like the measure of whether they would like to achieve selfish all just for a moment I'd like to have to have you talk a little bit more about in cut in sort of concrete terms what it is we're talking about when we talk about a this worldly orientation other worldly that's that's pretty clear that that means essentially people are saying what what happens really to us in this world doesn't really is not as important

as our individually polishing ourselves. Spiritual perfection working on what what the next world is going to be that's in my mind it's pretty clear what that means. But when you talk about this worldly orientation are you talking about still are you talking about spiritual matters as they exist in this world or are you talking about something that goes beyond that. That has to do in a larger sense with a remaking of the world as we find it. I think that it's very well taken remaking the world as we find it. In order to achieve selfish in this just dispense session. You have to take God's witness and make it work on earth. And that means not just being a good boy. It means working for the good of humankind. Some of the classic contexts in this summit's will say Egypt or talks.

It means setting up clinics setting up schools. It means being charitable. That means making God's witness work in your community. Our guest here in this part of focus 580 Francis Robinson he's professor of history of South Asia and University of London he's here visiting the campus to give a talk. He'll be talking afternoon at 4:00 this is part of the miller com series he'll also by the way be taking part in a panel discussion on global fundamentalisms that include number of faculty here from the University of Illinois. This is taking place at three o'clock tomorrow afternoon on the 1st of February in the humanities lecture hall at IPR H on West Pennsylvania. I'm assuming again anybody who is interested in tending that should feel welcome. Same thing with the talk of this afternoon the miller cum event. Questions Welcome to 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We do have a couple of callers here to bring into the conversation starting with someone in Urbana.

And this is line 1. Hello hello. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was a Jacob's sons Ishmael and I can't remember the other gentleman I have. Who who split up and who lost or the division of religions. But my question is Jesus wants describe himself as the sun Lamb of God and the lamb is kind of been battered in its life and the word is mom. Is there any connection of the his religion and the Islamic religion. I think that out connections but the connection doesn't exist with the L.M. that exists and is not. And in fact to you make a very interesting point when you talk about Isaac. That was the name I think and it's now

a silence of Muslims concern and. There descended in exactly the same way as the choose and the Christians are from Isaac Isaac had two sons. One time Abraham had two sons get back will but they're all descended from Abraham. Abraham had two sons one Isaac one Ishmael from Isaac the longest down to the Jews and Christians from ish Nile who was Abraham saw through his wife Sarah his concubine Sarah The Lion King. So the Arabs to the most NS and I don't know if you know anything about the practices of the pilgrimage to Mecca. But all those practices and she celebrate what happened to her to Isaac to Ishmael sorry when he and Sarah would cost out by Abraham into the

desert. You may recall that one of the big celebrations of the pilgrimage is rushing backwards and forwards in order to pick up water. This celebrates Sarah's desperate search for water. And it was that she found at the foot of where she had laid down the smell that so well of Zamzam in Mecca. So they're all close connections but not actually in the name. Well I think the caller let's go to someone else here we have someone in Champaign and it's line number two. Hello. Well first of all I think you meant to say how Guy instead of fat Sarah was. You're absolutely right. Thank you. That she was a concubine. You're absolutely right. Yeah right. Ok so my question has to do with. This kind of I don't know what you call it kind of a continuum between otherworldliness and worldliness in terms of I mean I guess you're saying that people are concerned about social action and people are concerned about this world.

But people are also willing to blow themselves up because they feel that they will be martyrs go to heaven some of them not all the time maybe very few of them maybe a small small minority but are people who are willing to go and vote at the risk of being blown up feeling that they've maybe just done their national duty but maybe also done a religious duty that they might feel that they have done something really good and that they will be rewarded for it if they happen to get blown up at the polling station. So I guess that's one question I have about this can to. Knew him there how this works but also I'm interested in and how we have almost this dynamic of two fundamentalism kind of grading up against one another with us fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism and certain beliefs about Israel in the future and and what not. So I think I guess I'm wondering about kind of messianic fundamentalism although socialism which is very much concerned with material in this world is could be

almost messianic and couldn't be involved in terrorism so. So I'm interested in these kinds of claims of ideas if you might discuss them in some way. OK. Well I think there's a whole bunch of things. So when you forgive me if I just to choose one or two that's fine. You were interested in how for instance suicide bombers might be related to this worldly face. I regard if you like the jihad to suit company. Now the term pretty well mean instructing in the way of the Lord and that if you don't like his driving force of this welter of faith. But of course it belongs as you say using a word continuum it's part of a considerable continuum. One end it's that she's struggling with her own problems her own weaknesses in order to be a good believer another and it can mean taking extreme action. In order to as far as

you understand it further the purposes of your faith. So I regard those who blow themselves up in tanking as a suicide bomb as belonging right to the extreme and struggling in the way of their faith. And of course they believe that they will attain heaven as a result. All that many most and most is who would say that they would not. Ok going back to this idea of the maybe material isn't the right word to use but if you look at some of the architecture of the Ottoman Empire you know the Taj Mahal of course that's a little bit later. But some of the beautiful in that let's say in Central Asia where you might have a mystical tradition and yet you have you know all of this beauty and all of this finery

that I you know built in order to perhaps make you think of the highest things such as God I'm just wondering I mean I know on the one hand there might have been a lot of myth. It was an Ottoman Empire. A lot of pomp and circumstance but you also have a maybe those those were in opposition in some way maybe there's some point of contact. Maybe you could talk about that as well and then I'll let you go. Well I like the way that to bring the Tonton. It is an absolute stunning building I didn't have you seen it. I strongly recommend it to everyone it's more stunning when they see it than ever that imagine it will be. But if you examine the top and look at all the kind of graphics This is from the Koran that are around it and look at that structure. It's and she designed as the door was designed to be the gates of heaven. All the key chapters of the Koran relating to judgment are repeated.

And on the one hand it's a place of great beauty if you like representing the throne of heaven. But on the other hand if you think of what's actually being sent quite terrifying. I want to pick up on the point that your caller raises and then you discuss it. If if one if you start with the idea that for a person of faith a this worldly orientation is not a bad thing because what it's says is that it places upon that person an obligation to try and leave the world a better place than they found it so one would have say in the face of it that's that's good. However if we have a kind of a movement that is so broad that it can encompass everyone from people who are doing humanitarian work to people who are militant in the extreme it seems it seems difficult to understand how it is that both. How do you

compensate both extremes. I think you accommodate it. Well it depends what you mean by accommodation. I think only extremes are expressed through here because in a sense you're dealing with a quarter of the human rights who are placed in a wide range of different contexts. And so to some degree the line an action that you might take in making your face live on a might to some degree not Huntly some degree be related to the specific contexts in which you find yourself. For some people however unpleasant they may be and the Orion experience the problems of colonial rule and having all your life chances are very very considerably constrained at you taking violent action. Macy and she one of the better ways of approaching. Indeed our promises wife Cherie Blair was actually an unwise movement size and public.

Is there is there within Islam a debate going on now is that WON'T IT debate going on now over just which action is the is the more appropriate. There's a constant debate going on a long time the Longchamps Muslims who keep you disapprove off us who can only see a way forward through constructive Well constructive itself is inseparable but then you see ways who through forms of peaceful action. So it's a constant debate. It's think recidivate TD that said it's sometimes quite hard for some people to stand up and speak out and condemn perhaps I would like to but I can assure you it's figure a sedated part of my I'm not a Muslim but I can get quite a lot with my own Muslim community. All minute of us to campus in London and this sort of thing it was something of constant debate and I have to say they come out very much on the ironic peaceful end of the divide and how much of this

is a function of class of social class. I think I've read a paper that you wrote where you talked about the fact that it definitely that the kind of militant Islam that we have seen tends to be a relatively middle and lower middle class kind of movement. I think that's true. Just to some considerable Beaumont holy site the if you like the shock troops of this movement also of Fassett Condor standing usually first generate progression people who moved from the countryside to the city. These are the shock that these are the large numbers of supporters of the Psalmist groups throughout the world and of course Islamic world has seen a massive crisis of it in a session of the past 30 or 40 guys. And Islam ism itself in that context often provides all the physical supports and sense of

schooling social centers clinics and so on but also psychological support enables people to make that very big transition from one such environment to another says who economic empowerment. What kind of again I suppose that and I'm I'm asking a question that invites a generalization but I'm I'm interested in how people as you see it how people in the Muslim world today particularly people who are involved in these kinds of movements that are basically about creating an Islamic society how they engage with with the modern world or or perhaps reject the modern world I think there is assumption that there is a stray strong strain of anti modernism and that I'm I'm sure some scholars will look at that and say well that's not that that it's not inevitable that that should be there's no there's no reason really why Islam and.

Should not be should not be a modern faith or Muslim should not be moderate people there's no there's nothing persay in Islam to that should say that that should not be. It's good absolutely stright Islam isn't just what people often call fundamentalists in many ways profound. And they seek profound emotion and. I've just come back from a run in Iran. High technology isn't priced in every possible way. In many ways I find Iran more computerized than my home world in Britain. So there's no problem. In technological Medinah to. Indeed many of the leaders of the sourness movements all doctors engineers as teaches support amongst university students people who are.

Highly educated and modern in that sense. So and equally many of those who come to study Islamic groups and the kinds of impacts that been having on individuals who come tonight that they increasingly seem to support strange enough forms of interventionism. They support that profoundly opposed to all forms of patronage and it won't progress by merit. That there's increasing respect for individual human space and this kind of thing as against family requirements that much of what one sees taking place within the framework. Of what seems to us in many ways quite threatening is that she producing in inverted commas most individuals as we understand them. There is a a major a major one can hardly understated difference in the way now that Europe and the United States are approaching Iran.

The Europeans seem to be trying to engage Iran and in a constructive way using diplomacy talking the United States is being much more belligerent and mung things we have seen reported in the news lately is that the United States is really scouting targets for possible military action against Iran and its and its nuclear infrastructure. And it seems the United States at least seems to be skeptical skeptical. About a great deal of doubt about what the Europeans can achieve with their strategy. Do you think in a sense this is perhaps more of a political question. Do you think that there has been some success that is that Europe has had some success in trying to establish a relationship with the government of Iran.

Well sadly I think we have because I've done a great deal myself in dealing both with the Iranian foreign ministry and with the Iranian Ministry of Higher Education. We've done a great deal of work in building the. Research and joint research projects for the Runnymede of us to do is with. Developing joint joint teaching programs by that undergraduate and postgraduate level with Iranian universities. And it's my view that by engaging in many different ways of this novel we actually help the reformers in Iran and help slowly bring Iranian back in Iran back into the system. Certainly a very considerable design amounts not so much for the Iranians to come back into the system in a mansion way. I have to say that now that I think it would be disastrous if any military action or aggressive action of any kind was on to

take. In addition to Iran Iran has slowed in its own way working out its destiny it. Aggressive action would lead to a huge sense of Iranian nationalism and that she set back the process of slow crabwise change that is taking place at the moment. Let me let me ask you one further question. I have a couple of calls I will get to them I want to make sure they know Im not going to make them wait forever but I suspect that there are probably a lot of people in the West who look at Iran and they they see that there are there are a number of Iranians who are concerned about the religious rule of their country. I would like to have a different kind of government people that we often talk about as being reformers whatever that means. Maybe in some people's minds there is the assumption that for those people

they are interested in Iran being a secular state a secular democracy. And I think that probably we have to be very careful in applying terms that come from American politics to another society that's different. What even if you if you take those people who would like the like to like to see a more secular society and that is one that is not so firmly in control of the religious leaders. What sort of society do would they like to have and what sort of role in that society would religion play. I think one thing enormous important to understand about Iran is that. Shia faith is a very strong part of the national identity. The shunts regime from.

The 1920s through to 1979 endeavored to build a secular alternative. But chef faith is a very profound part and many all the images and I cannot graffiti. She is an important part of Iranian national identity. So although as I'm sure will eventually happen something infinitely more secular with a much narrower and arguably the so-called fundamentalists actually helping it on the way by being what they are. Nevertheless she is and will be a part of the Iranian national identity and of course the great find how what place for it can be found in a more secular Iran in the world. Our guest in this hour of focus 580 is Francis Robinson he's professor of the history of South Asia at the University of London. He will be giving a talk about some of the ideas that we've discussed or particular the things we're talking about at the beginning about this balance between other worldly and this worldly

piety and how it is that within say the last couple of hundred years the pendulum has swung more to the this worldly kind of orientation to giving a talk this afternoon 4:00 o'clock at the level center on the campus it's Miller common events free and open to anybody who would like to attend. Otherwise here on the program of course we're open to questions and we have several people who are ready. We'll get right back to the phones 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. Pena is the first in line here in line number one hero. Yes I find your program it seems to be a very truthful one and full of reality and and I think. We need to see what can be done with the administration to face this reality which I think they have ignored and that's one reason why we are in a lot of trouble over in the eastern world. Also

would you make mention of the anti-Christ an Armageddon. Thank you. No I'm afraid I'm not really equipped to discuss the anti-Christ. And on again I'm sorry. I will go on. Next is line number two this is a caller in Champaign Illinois. Hello. I've enjoyed the discourse so far. I have a question. We frequently read in our newspapers the term The awkward. As defined in defining the govern. Not Iran. Is that in the West. Stern kind of does the ocracy. Or is it something and does this theocracy so-called stem from the raster in Islam or what is the belief system. I'd like to comment that I concur and really enjoyed your

statement about the advances and the accomplishments of the civilization over there. And when I studied architectural history several years ago at the University of Illinois I learned that the vaulting system used in media. Able to rock your you know rock and Orion. Thank you. Thank you as well. A lot of the math is actually originally derived from the Arab world which is why we can find the similarities. Yes there's nothing to do with I asked in his and him but you would be right to describe the government of Iran as a theocracy in the sense that the people who have lost people we called it. You have heard of taught us and so on those of the Islamic scholars. And all legislation that goes through the Iranian

parliament which is an elected parliament. Has nevertheless to go before a group of Islamic scholars for traditional review and they decide whether this legislation is probably Islamic or not told they give it its Islamic polish. So it is a theocracy in the sense the law gets finally signed off by a group of Islamic scholars and of course in theory the most powerful man in the system a man called the supreme guide told the harmonies here as he is. Is in effect the person has lost almost no mattress. Here in the in the United States we have although it's something that we argue a good deal about this notion that there should be a separation of church and state. And I think in much of the Muslim world that that's that's that's not the idea that in fact they would say that there can't you cannot separate

the society government and the faith. There is so closely integrated that that's just they. They would wouldn't even accept the notion. However there certainly are places where there does seem to be more and more distance between the faith and the government I mean what really determines just how close those two worlds are. That's a very interesting question I know you play for much of Muslim history. There's been quite a substantial separation between if you like the world of Islam. In the world of the shots of the civil tongues in a sense. And it's always been a very important issue for Islamic Political theory. The extent to which a shot should rule completely by himself and the extent to which he should actually acknowledge the requirements of Islamic law. And so for Islamic

Political theory is that was the issue. Can a Muslim rule that she could go to heaven. So it's for much of Islamic because it's been a key issue and the the show is if you like the kings of. More often than not had the upper hand. It's it's really changed over the past 200 years. And in large part with if you like the movement of it. The masses into the political arena. And particularly with the development of islamics and Islamic understanding's which said in order to create an Islamic society we must capture the modern state. But for much of Islamic history the state belonged to the king the Lord belonged elsewhere. The religious law does. Let's talk with another caller this is someone listening in Urbana and lie number three. Truly I'm right but I have a couple questions. Did you

did your God mean to you I mean has he explained yet why there is this shift between from other worlds. Only to this worldly emphasis. Well I'm quite happy Quick Kid to do so. That will be helpful. In the in the Islamic world there's always been this tension between how the world in this world. There was an increasing movement towards of this wealth in the 18th century and then between 800 to 900 20 all of the most and wild almost all of it came under Western rule. And in that context that was a great shift towards this wealth of faith. So actually it is profoundly related although not how they related to the experience of that new rule and arguably

the the introduction of forms of Western capitalism. And so. Yeah that makes sense. Actually the person that was interviewed just before you I was trying to get through to you but I failed. Has he said that. Well first of all when you when you were talking about this world and you said you know charitable activities in orphanages and schools and all that that really reminded me of the early history of Osama bin Laden in self the first time I looked into his history and was full of that kind of stuff in his work in Afghanistan and. And I I'm really not able to list all the places but. And then but the last person that was interviewed in an interview with you another interview he said he said to the to the question

why do you think we haven't been attacked since 9/11. He said I think the world has been going in the direction of Osama bin Laden since 9/11 unquote. And I wanted to ask him about that. But I was wondering if since you've now alluded to it in an earlier period where colonial activity. Had the effect of you know that you talked of. And now our intervention would you also agree that some of bin Laden is is is seen as a very. You know a very forward. Icon in the Muslim world as this last person would have said. Yes I think he has tremendous respect amongst many and the most in Weld. For the simple reason that he has stood up.

In Montana. From peasant the way in which he did say he has appeared to stand up for most in pride and respect. I think it's enormously important. To remember that large numbers of most NS feel that the West has no very little respect for them. And unfortunately that has been replicated for instance by the way in which we failed to count the number of Iraqis killed in the war. Moving to another point which you made. You suggested that in a sense all of the previous interviewee had said that the world was moving in some of in not it's direction I feel the Thai intervention in Iraq. And I sound because I speak as a person. Hasn't she made many many more supporters for the outstandings of Osama bin in Iraq but through the most and while I don't know said who traveled the most

in well but if you do I recommend that you go into the sonnes around look at the back of shops and look at the pictures that are up at the back. And I suspect you'll see some of the not this picture that. More often than not you know there's a very poor understanding in this country of just how much character there is in the Muslim world. I mean your character is doing the right thing despite the prison. CNN cost them surely Muslim the Muslim world is really full of character I would say. And one last thing and I'll hang up and and that's that is that it is key isn't not that apparently the top three sacred sites of the Muslim world are now being either on their western control or under Western attack. And that that's that's a very key thing.

Well I don't think Mecca and Medina and a Western concern you could say that Jerusalem was under a form of Western control things. Well there the argument is that we support the Saudis and the Saudis are corrupt and that we have bases in Saudi Arabia and. And therefore you know have tainted the sacred land and that kind of thing I understand that you kinda been reading the some of the not into you know well actually the British papers. You know I have been a little bit more maybe been a little bit more willing to delve into the nuances. But anyway I'll hang up and say Well thanks for the call it's go on to another caller this is champagne on line 1. Hello. Hi. If I could go back to your discussion about Iran and Iran having nuclear weapons and the general nationalism of Iran I wonder if you could talk a little

bit about if Iran had nuclear weapons. Aren't there issues about what the aggressive policies of Iran would then be both in terms of Saudi Arabia other powers in the Gulf area maybe to the east and north in terms of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and Pakistan but also in towards the west in terms of Israel in a way that is given the aggressive policies of Iran in the past supporting terrorism against the United States and against all those other places. What would happen when they had nuclear weapons and were continuing the aggressive policies which they have done in the last 10 20 years no problem no question about it. Existing.

First of all let me side rather that Iran didn't have nuclear weapons. On the other hand looking at it from Iran's point of view I would feel rather threatened by the nuclear weapons which Israel possesses. And indeed the relations normally a particular between Pakistan and Iran the nuclear weapons which Pakistan possesses so I think Iran has a duty to its own people. To to assure their security. I think the reason why I'd rather Iran didn't have nuclear weapons is that there is there remains possibly a danger that they could move into the wrong hands not that Iran would hand them over to terrorists but the wrong kinds of people might take control of the Iranian state I guess. Highly unlikely but it's possible. That said my own belief is that Iran is an extreme in

its current policies. In West Asia is actually a source of stability rather than stability. And that we in Europe and in the states should be trying to engage with that source of stability and bring it on side rather than threaten it in destabilization. Well if I could just say you say it's a source of stability but there's no doubt they funded terrorism. His byline you know Lebannon which is destabilized part of that area they funded the bombing of American bases in Saudi Arabia which is the the evidence is very clear now though we didn't do anything at the time because the evidence wasn't clear. So and there's lots more that they've done in other parts of the world. So they have used their funding for terrorism. Would they do more if they were had a nuclear weapon and felt

more invulnerable. I think Iran is is is actually in the process of moving on side. The intervention to Hizbullah in the Lebanon belongs to some years ago. And I have to say I'm not aware of Iranian involvement in the attacks on American bases in Saudi Arabia. I think I have to return I recognize the danger of Iran having nuclear weapons I'd rather it didn't. But I think as I said is to try and work with Iran and bring her into our fold and not threaten. I'm trying to stabilize you. We're trying to get one more caller this would be her battle line to hello. Hi good morning thanks for taking my call. David I'd like to comment on your earlier question implicit in that is was that to the guess was that Islam is

medieval in time or noti It all depends what you call modernity. I mean to me if a murder energy is having Let's close on one's body or to be engaged if you had behavior or to let you know graffiti flourish under the Freedom of expression and to have disrespect for it. Bitterness and lack of respect for the institution of marriage. Then of course you would not find Islam to be did. But if you're talking about 100 from a snob standpoint on the contrary women in Muslim countries have had highest voice in the Government and Public Affairs in contemporary times and in history to inheritance rights of demand the right to express opinions or vote and engage in intellectual discussion the right to earn and spend of the reset embedded in some doctrine and practices. If this is not more unity in your understanding then I don't know what does constitutes modernity it is it is it is the injustice and the disenfranchisement in our current world which fuels what we see around us today. We as global citizens have a role to play and not look at the world from say a higher plane.

In coming and passing judgement unless it be by me I mean me and you and others do that we unfortunately will continue to find ourselves in this sad state of affairs. Thank you so much for taking my call. Well I appreciate the calm and I would also like to say by the way that I was not meaning to suggest that I personally felt that Islam was medieval or into a martyr. No I meant the you express think that the conveying of feeling which is which which is prevalent there and I just wanted to add that this all should be looked at from a larger perspective. Thank you. Yes indeed. Make any comment on that. Just to say that I had Shukri with much of what the caller has said. We have a couple of minutes left there's an idea that I'd like you at least to touch on that I find interesting and that is in observing this trend towards this worldly piety in Islam. There is this it becomes incumbent on the individual on the

individual Muslim to do what he or she can do to improve the world. I'm interested in something that you hint on in a in a paper that that you wrote that I read about how this made tender to tend to foster a kind of individual ism that perhaps we had not seen before after all as Islam means it means submission it means submission to God. Do you see in fact as a kind of result of this this focus on this world is there there is a growing sense of individual ism that had not been there before and if that is the case what what are the implications. Yes there is and I take this back to two things one the sense of individual ism if you like with the very high level of personal responsibility

that this well has some places on the individual. It is your actions it's how you behave which decides whether you're going to make it. I haven't gone out and that sense of personal responsibility also comes to breed a sense of personal empowerment as well and is absolutely fascinating to see this being worked out. In fact in literature say as written by particular by women in India and Pakistan over the past hundred yes. So yes the sense of individual has a sense of personal responsibility and I think the very interesting thing is that this of course brings about a tension between if you like on the one hand the individual's sense of personal responsibility and the growing sense of personal empowerment on the one hand and of course the requirements of the faith submission said on the other.

And I think one of the most fruitful areas for investigation is actually to see the ways in the modern Muslim weld in which those tensions between the requirements of the faith and this new sense of person empowerment felt by women just as much as by men a big way. Well I thank you very much for talking with us. We appreciate it. Our guest Francis Robinson Professor of the history of South Asia at university in London. He'll be talking this afternoon 4:00 o'clock as part of the miller com series this is at the lever center on the U of on campus. It's free and open to the public anybody is welcome.