Focus 580; Living a Gentle, Passionate Life

On the program today in this first hour we will be wrapping up a series of conversations that we have had with some guests who were involved in a series of lectures that have been going on now for some time at the St. Patrick's parish center in urban at an 11 part series titled dialogue into the millennium considering the past reflections on the present hope for the future. We had several of the speakers in this series here on this program to bring them to a little bit wider audience it began actually in 1999 and will conclude this week at 7:30 in the evening on Thursday the first of February with a guest that we have with us by telephone this morning his name is Robert Wicks. He's professor and chair of the graduate programs and pastoral counseling at Loyola College in Maryland. His academic training is in psychology. He's taught in universities and professional schools of psychology medicine social work theology and nursing. He is interested in the prevention of secondary stress disorders and also

the integration of psychology and spirituality in his clinical practice. He works counseling counselors. He works with therapists physicians nurses relief workers people who are full time ministers. For example in 1993 he was in Cambodia just prior to the elections there and during the time he worked with professionals from the English speaking international community who were there to help the Camero people rebuild their nation. Following many years of terror and torture there. Also in 1994 he was responsible for the psychological debriefing of relief workers evacuated from Rwanda during the civil war there. He has published over 30 books. One that I mention just because I happen to be holding it in my hand living a gentle passionate Life published by Paulist books. And his most recent or his new is actually not even I think out yet. Due to be out in the spring titled Snow Falling on snow which is published by the

same publisher. He's joining us this morning by telephone so we can talk with him a little bit about his work and give you something of a small preview of the talk that he'll be giving this week of course anyone who is interested is welcome to attend that at St. Patrick's parish center in Urbana on 7 8 West Main. And of course anyone here is welcome to call in and join the conversation here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also have a toll free line that's good anywhere that you can hear us. So food would be a long distance call for you. Use that number that's 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 and if you match the numbers with the letters on the phone you get w i l l which probably doesn't really make it easier to dial the number but that's the other way to think about it. Three three three W I L L and toll free 800 1:58 W while M.

Well Dr. Wicks Hello. Hello. Thanks very much for talking with us today. I'm glad to do it David. This is I guess maybe a little bit of a pedestrian kind of question but I am interested in your experiences as a counsellor of counsellors. And I wonder exactly how it is that you got into doing that. Well. There's a sense of trust I think that comes about when you have fellow therapists and people in ministry here you give a talk or they read one of your books. There is a sense of comradeship. And they feel that they can come in for a console to talk about what they're going through. And then once that builds up. The word gets around slowly but surely as in any kind of practice you wind up being more of a specialist in an area than you thought you would be when you first graduated. So this these are people that they're consulting you not so much

about. Problems that arise out of their practice but they are coming to talk about them in their own lives and their own personal problems. That's right. What happens is in terms of. People want to always curious about what is secondary stress and it's the stress that people experience when they're intimate with other people's pain. When you're intimate with people as a therapist as a physician nurse or teacher or relief worker or minister what happens is you not only catch their flu and their calls but you catch their stress depression their anxiety. It's you know the air is polluted by the negativity and no matter how well you're trained to keep a distance because you got in the profession in the first place because you care you're often experience those kinds of things. And of course a secondary stress can be a factor in anybody's life. You

can you can catch another person's pain that's close to you. You don't have to be a therapist for that to happen. No no and I think that actually what happens is in families. When there is an experience of trust often it's in those very settings that that pain will be expressed by children by cousins by brothers. Same thing in business same thing in the neighborhood. And today I think there's a great deal of hurt around. And people will she have that hurt. And sometimes at surprising times and even catch you off God. I'm trained to do it as as a therapist and as a mentor and even I get caught off guard. I remember a colleague who was going through a great deal of hurt came into my office and I had been mentoring her and she said to me gee I read you a book Seeds of sensitivity and I really like that. I said Well thank you. And in the next breath she said too bad you're not like what

you've written. So after I prayed for her early happy death. I said you know people write and preach out of their shadows. It's not where they are they need to point to where they need to go as well but obviously I've let you down in some ways so maybe we can talk about that. And we did. But I think the reality was that she felt a sense of safety. Able to share that pain and I think that that that's a message that we all need to know and not take it personally. Parents I think take criticism of their adolescence personally and and it's not meant to be personal it's often happens because they feel safe. And adolescence as you know is not a stage in development. It's a serious disease. Adolescents are going through all kinds of hormonal things and wild and woolly. And they share this with parents and if parents feel little and secure they get defensive and they respond in kind.

Whereas the reality is they feel safe enough to try out criticizing adults try out disagreeing and. If the parent realizes that they don't take it personally can respond with a sense of calm and a sense of clarity. Think one one of the things that perhaps people don't fully appreciate about about therapists is that. They I think they are there to help. Their clients figure things out for themselves and I think that too often perhaps we end up going thinking that this person is has has the answers. Where in fact probably we have them. It's just that we need to have some help discovering what they are. Magine though that for the people in the helping professions that can and can sometimes be very difficult burden the expectations that people come to them

with that is when I come to you thinking that you're the guy that's going to solve my problems. Yeah. Yeah the expectations that people have of anybody in the healing in helping professions are ridiculous and but you have to realize that I often tell people when I am working with I was working with some therapists in Chicago just a day before yesterday. And I said to them if there is. The proverb that typifies expectations for us it's the Yiddish Proverb. Sleep faster. We need the pillows. And I think that the whole sense of expectations are ridiculous and. What we need to do is not get caught in that frame of reference. On the other hand helpers and healers should have good information. That can help people. They should be able to sit with them in a way that is respectful so both the presence of the healer helper and the techniques.

Can and should provide help but maybe not at the level that the person comes in with initially. Well I certainly wouldn't want to minimize the importance of both training and experience for someone to be successful. But I also I guess I have always thought that perhaps if if we were all better listeners and we were a little bit better at providing you know sort of better friends to one another both our friends and our family that maybe we wouldn't need quite so many therapists. Well I think that is one of the problems is that I think we are good helpers and friends. I think that today. In fact we turned to therapists and professionals too quickly. I did a book called Cross Road books called sharing

wisdom. On mentoring and what I wrote that book about is not for professionals eroded for people so that they could sit with their family members their colleagues and really extend their natural talents. It lets just take the word respect. I don't think people realize how important that is. I had a client who was sexually abused as a child and I was seeing her as an adult and she was right at the end of her treatment and we were together and I was watching her bubbling and I thought you know what I want to do is I want to interrupt her. And have her take credit for how far she's come and reflect on the treatment and what she's done to get to this point so that when she enters darkness again because darkness comes and goes for us all at different points in life she'll know what to do. That was my brainstorm because I often tell people in

the program that I'm director of the graduate programs and pastoral counseling at oil in Baltimore is that when one of the students makes an intervention with a client I should be able to ask why did you say that. Why did you say that now. Why did you say that. Now in that way and what did you expect. At any rate I interrupted her and I said picture my face is a mirror and what do you see. And she said Oh I see a woman really alive of herself a woman who found the child that was lost because of the abuse she's resurrected or integrated her with the adult she is now a boy she's hot stuff. And I said yeah you are hot stuff. But how did you get to this point. You weren't this way when you first came and seen me and instead of launching into all kinds of techniques that I had taught her she looked at me and she said You mean you don't know. And I said well no not really. She says Well it's very simple it's simple. She said yeah the first time I came in here to see you. I simply watched how you sat with me. And then I

began sitting with myself. In the same way. I think if we have that kind of respect and patience and respect with people they will have it with themselves and change can take place just by that simple step along. If we don't run away and I think that's the fear is that we're overcome by a feeling that we've got to cure people rather than help them through it themselves. I should introduce Again our guest with this part of focus 580 was speaking with Dr. Robert Wicks He's a professor and chair of the graduate programs in pastoral counseling at Loyola College in Baltimore Maryland. His academic background is in psychology. He's taught in universities and professional schools of psychology and medicine and social work and theology is interested in among other things the integration of psychology and spirituality and as we don't hear part of his practice is devoting devoted to working with people who

in their work are counselors therapists and educators relief workers people who are in the ministry. And he's written a number of books. He will be here in Champaign Urbana on Thursday for the final speech and the dialogue into the millennium series. An 11 part series it started way back in 1909. And is taking place at St. Patrick's parish center in urban on Main Street and this is free and open to anybody who would like to attend so people in and around Champaign-Urbana are interested you should certainly feel welcome to go if you like to call and hear questions comments. Welcome to 3 3 3 wy a well toll free 800 to toot toot W while just continuing as theme for a moment I'm curious about what you might say about the about how much training in counseling people who go into ministry get because they are often they do often have to take on this role

and it seems natural that it comes with the business of being a minister. But if I do find myself wondering in in the various kinds of training that they. Get with the program as they go through how much time is devoted to some training and counseling. I suppose it varies. Well it does vary but it's very limited. They do usually take several courses in pastoral care and pastoral counseling and are able to do short term work. The problem that arises is when they see someone for counseling more than three sessions and it becomes more intense. The transference of the young realistic feelings that people have the two of them can be very intense both positive and negative. And unless you're trained to be a pastoral counselor and that's why they have these masters in pastoral counseling programs now it can be very very dangerous.

But in the short term I think they have courses that allow them to project the wonderful wisdom and the caring that they have and people will often not go first to a psychiatric nurse or a counselor or a psychiatrist or a psychologist or a social worker or a pastoral counselor but they'll go to a minister first. And she or he can really be of help in the immediate and short term run and often offer and that's sometimes actually most times enough. However. Or at times they need to then refer to somebody who is specially trained. I'd like to have you talk about the idea of the integration of psychology and spirituality. On the one hand I suppose some people might say that they are kin because spirituality deals with spirit and psychology can deal with mind and both of these

things are there not the kind of things that you can grab hold of. On the other hand there are some people who would say that psychology is a science and when dealing with spirituality is something entirely different and those two things are somehow mutually exclusive. How do you see these two things coming together. Well I think they come together in terms of their goal for example if you look at the Sanskrit word for faith which is a peace process literally translated it means to breathe easily. Have trust it be free from fear. I think the goal of religion. You know often is to bring people in touch with something greater than themselves so they can be as great as they called to be by God. Psychology can set the stage for a metanoia conversion by allowing people to recognise how consciously or unconsciously they're moving toward God or away from God toward the truth away from the truth

and be of help. I don't think I think we run into problems though when we make psychology into a religion. Psychology is a science just like medicine and other sciences. And you know it's just like learning how to plow the field with something that can help you plow it better. I think psychology can help people be wise and get perspective and you can see a great deal of similarities. For example people will often come to me because they've blown their perspective out of whack and I'll help them with perspective but perspective wasn't invented by psychology it has great biblical roots. In the Talmud we read you do not see things as they are you see things as you are. And in the Christian New Testament Matthew 6 22 says if your eye is good your whole body will be good. So you have parallel themes.

It's the same thing in terms of. Ordinary ness. Often in psychotherapy you help a person to get a sense of self esteem. This doesn't mean that they don't have doubts but the doubts don't. I don't completely throw them off and destroy them. And they become more ordinary so that their energy is not spent on defense it's simply spent on being themselves. When you have that sense of what Mary ness than people with them are relaxed. So it builds a community. Well on the religious side you can see the same thing a number of years ago Archbishop Desmond Tutu was speaking to the Episcopalian seminarians in New York City a general feel logical seminary. And halfway through his talk one of the seminarians not just the Dean who is sitting next to him and said Archbishop Tutu is a holy man. The dean looked back at him and said Well how do you know he's a holy man. And the young man didn't even blink you looked back and said I

know that Desmond Tutu is holy. Because when I'm with Desmond Tutu I feel holy. Now the question. I often asked people in my practice is how do people feel when they're with you. Do they feel a sense of freedom a sense of space a sense of you just simply being yourself and loving yourself. What do they feel your anger. They feel you need to control you right to be seen as perfect or is helpful. What do they see. So I think that there is a real parallel and I think psychology can set the stage for good religious community and practice but it's certainly not meant to be greater than religion or spirituality. I guess you know another notion that some people find difficult about religion and perhaps what I'm thinking about here is about not religion sort of with the big R but religion with the small r

in in different different traditions of practice is the tendency of people to say my way or the highway. You know I've got the truth and everybody else has got something else and if you want to get the truth you can come over and you can practice my way but otherwise. You're. Otherwise what what you have is not true in what I have is true. And there again I guess that seems to go head on with the notions the notion in psychology that there is in some sense. Finding the truth is and is an individual matter and that you and your truth and my truth are maybe different. And again I guess I'm interested in your reflections on that. That attitude that some people of faith have that says you know I'm right you're wrong unless you're with me.

Well I think it's again the motivation behind it. I think that people do need a balance between certitude and openness. I really think that people are attracted to states that do have you know some sense of basic sense of belief. It's not. You know it's not like standing in the air you know solidly with both feet firmly planted in mid-air. People want something to believe in and they want something to sort of rest their faith on so there's that side of it. And I think people have a right to. Have things that they feel strongly about. On the other hand what you're picking up is that. That if the motivation of the believers. Is insecurity. If the motivation of the believers is something that will give them you know it's total Lancer in that they won't have to grapple with their

faith. Then in fact what it turns in is into rigidity and it's an interesting thing as you hear some people talk about their faith and you look at their faith. In other words the religious the nomination from. You notice a big difference in terms of. Of what the faith seems to be saying and what the person representing the faith of the person going to the church synagogue or mosque is believing. So it's the it's the maturity of the believer the maturity of the minister that also makes a great deal of difference you know you just for example you see somebody like Billy Graham. Well I don't think anybody would accuse him of not having a strong faith. But yes he's somebody who doesn't feel that in security he was traveling through England at one point and somebody said that a famous minister in England had said some.

Things about him that were. Not flattering and he looked back and said Well God bless that man a fire in his position I'd say the same things about myself. I mean he had a just the sense of peace with it he wasn't concerned about it. I think when you see things that are motivated by hate and fear though. Then no one in their right mind would believe that this is helping us reach God helping us reach the truth. Instead I think what it's doing is it's a clustering people together in fear and hate. And it was James Baldwin It said people have a hard time letting go of their hate because when they let go of their hate they're going to have to face themselves in their own pain. So it is a difficult thing. The legend is certainly a blessing. But with any blessing it's also has its dangerous zones and they're pretty obvious aren't they. Well we are just a little bit past the midpoint. Our guest is Dr. Robert Wicks He's

professor and chair of the graduate programs and pastoral counseling at Loyola College in Baltimore Maryland. His training is in psychology and as I've mentioned he among other things works in his clinical practice as a counselor of counselors he focuses on working with psycho therapist and doctors and educators and relief workers and people who are full time in ministry. He'll be in Champaign Urbana Thursday to give the last talk in the dialogue into the millennium series. St. Patrick's parish center in Urbana. He's authored a number of books one that's titled Living a gentle passionate life it's published by the Polish press. His newest due out in March titled Snow Falling on snow the same publisher. So if you're interested in exploring some of his writing you can certainly find it in the bookstore or perhaps in the library. Questions also are welcome. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Also we have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 8:00. 2 2 2 9 4 5.

One of the themes that you explore in living a gentle passion in life is the importance of having quiet moments in life. And I guess I'm I'm thinking about the fact that I suppose over the years I've talked to people in a number of from a number of spiritual traditions and talked about different kinds of meditation practices and whether it's something that is sitting quietly whether it's a kind of meditative exercise or whether it's in fact something that you would call prayer. It seems that this is all intended to do kind of the same thing. But and I guess I don't know where this question comes from. It's a very difficult question to answer but I've always been prompted to ask that question try to get people to tell me when you do this. What is going on. What is it that you're doing and of course

it's it's very different if if you're having the right kind of experience it probably is something that you can't put into words or very difficult to put into words. But what what is the goal no matter what it is you you call this quiet practice. What is what is. That you think people are. Are trying to do or are doing well the goals can be different. I mean it. But essentially whether you call it meditation contemplation. Sitting in prayer. I think when people quiet themselves down as it is a number of of goals that the people can reasonably have. The first is is it. It sort of lets the dust settle so that you can be a little bit clearer about your life. One senator was once asked in the United States Senate what's the

greatest challenge facing the Congress today. And his response was not enough time to think. And I think that taking out at least two minutes a day in silence solitude and wrapped in gratitude allows you to let the dust settle. People often say well you mean two minutes should you be doing for 20 minutes. And I say well how long are you doing it now. And they'll recognize that because they've set up some artificial goal of 20 minutes that they never do what they're too busy. But you're not too busy. You can be late two minutes if you want to do it longer that's fine I often say it is good to take 20 or 30 minutes in the morning and in the evening but two minutes is the minimum so that you get into a regular rhythm. The first thing I think people recognize is how noisy their life is. So that first of all they. They're a little discouraged because they say well I guess this is meant for other people because I'm noisy. I mean I stop thinking about things and

and the first reaction I have to them is that this noise is going around your head all the time anyway. At least you've recognized it. The second thing that happens is when the dust settles they create a vacuum in their consciousness. And what happens then is that as you know from science nature abhors a vacuum so the pre-conscious of those thoughts just below the surface rise and fill the vacuum. And there we are facing are lies or doubts or games or fears. The fact that we're going to die someday. Now if we sit there and don't judge those thoughts don't either repress them or entertain them but let them move through like a train and observe them. We're going to learn about ourselves. So not only will we quiet ourselves see what's preoccupying ourselves but we can also learn about ourselves. And then eventually what happens is the sense of silence the silence itself rather than us waiting for some word to come out from the heavens.

The silence often is if you're religious. Speak and as the Word of God so that as you sit in the darkness in the quiet. The quiet itself becomes. The darkness itself becomes new light and new information for the next phase of your life so that people get several things One is they recognize they stop themselves from running towards their grave. Number two they learn about themselves. Number three they get a chance to breathe and be in the now. And I think that's very important to be in the now to have this sense of of of being there you know with a real sense of freshness and they have an openness so they can learn in a different way. James Joyce wrote of one of his character is Mr. Duffy lived a short distance from his body. I think. Prayer and Meditation brings us home

to ourselves. And then we have a sense of of of one learning a sense of openness to really new learning because we're not captured we're running through life. There's a Jewish proverb that goes do not limit your children to your own learning. Well they have been born in another age. I think we recognize that and we allow not the past just to teach us by remembering what we let the present in the future teach us by being more open. All of this comes from prayer and meditation. It's so dramatic that Shawn Rios Azuki. Famous Zen master who is out in San Francisco when he was asked how come when people come to meditate with you they stop taking drugs what do you do. He says I don't do anything I just have them sit in and they quickly forget about those things. I think we don't recognize the power of it or maybe we do and that's why we don't pray. We're frightened to see the kinds of things that we'll see. But if

we have the support of others if we have a sense of love and we are open in the things that we're frightened of will come out in the open. And after a while there will be so frightening any more and will have a greater sense of peace and perspective. That's why prayer is so forth. Well we have a caller who would like to join us on the line here and others are welcome to here in Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also do have the toll free line 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. So anyone who's interested in joining the cause. Say she can do that we have about 15 minutes left. The caller here is in Bloomington and it's line number for the woman in Illinois David. Yes sir. Good morning. Good morning. I am in my 87 fear. And I have yet to see the need for any religions. Do you have an ending for me.

Yes I think that if you don't feel you've had a need then obviously you have been a very spiritual person and a person very true and in what way. Well because I think that what happens with spiritual individuals they're able to grasp the wonder of life from many different corners from friends from family from work from nature. And you're on the right track. And what I would say is continue to draw from those things that you have found to be supportive. And since life's learning never ends and you're reading in your discussions even in your calls and sure you've called and you have that kind of curiosity continue to look for other ways that you cannot rush yourself and. Continue on the same path. Well thanks very much sir. You're welcome. Well we'll go to the other Bloomington this is Bloomington Indiana. Line 1. Hello. Yes ma'am. May I ask about this this current idea that that all religious beliefs are equally valid or more equally invalid.

You know that there is an assumption. There seems to be this assumption and you seem to be entertaining it that all faith is simply based on supposition and it can't be based on hard evidence. And when would you say that that faith that is based on research and hard evidence is no better than idle speculation. Well it's it's it's very difficult because faith itself is based on mystery on leaping into the darkness. No it's not. So. I think that. I did not say that I felt personally. The supposition that all faiths are equal. What I felt is that the people that search for God that search is equal in the sense that they're all looking. To find something deeper than themselves. In some cases people have found faith based on certain scientific suppositions and that has really resonated well with

them. Other people have based their faith on a scriptural source and that has provided a sense of meaning they have felt that really Scripture is the history of discernment and discussion between God and God's people. In other words you're saying if if if it if it is something as emotionally satisfying that makes it valid. No I'm not saying that I'm saying that people sound like in different ways. And you see it in a particular way and you see for example maybe a sense of science is providing a base basis for what you believe. What would your religion be. Well. I'm a Christian but let me let me give you an example OK of faith that is based on hard evidence. OK Simon Greenleaf was a Jewish professor of law at Harvard in the mid 800 she was probably the greatest expert on legal evidence that the Western world has ever produced. You know he could he could distinguish valid

evidence against invalid evidence. And this expert on evidence investigated the evidence for the bodily resurrection of Christ to give it. And there was an exhaustive investigation of that evidence and it was valid or whether it was an invalid. He reached this conclusion. He said there is more and better evidence of the resurrection of Christ right then that Alexander the Great or dually as Caesar ever lived. Now you say that this conclusion by this greatest expert on legal evidence that the Western world ever produced to this conclusion is no more valid than a child's belief in the tooth fairy. Well you making extreme things for example you are already labeling this greatest evidence so you've made a decision. Yes he was the greatest. He's Simon Greenleaf is doing his books are still used by our Supreme Court by our high courts as in determining whether evidence is valid or not. Right but the point isn't right is he's not in the Supreme Court. He's in

another area and you're making a decision that he's the greatest and I think that's fine. But you're acting like that that's written in some stone somewhere. Well I'm I'm saying this. I'm saying I put authority. I'm I'm respecting his authority. Right. As one who can evaluate evidence. Right. And I'm what I'm saying is other people respect other authority. Yeah but what do you say to them. Well if their authority is valid Yes I'm fine. But how do you determine whether it's valid or not. We will have a judgment motional feeling it is just an emotional response that's not valid. No no but what I'm saying is how do you decide that. What's more valid one thing is more valid than the other. Isn't that a judgment call on your part. Yes well it's the you know the the Christian faith. The reason that so many people believe in it is because we call it in his store our historic Christian faith and it is based on some actual events in history which

happened and can be demonstrated to have happened. Well another was that in other words it's faith based on fact not based on proven fact well-proven fact according to what you believe what you said. There are certain rules of logic there are certain rules of evidence. We use these every day we use them in courts of law. We use them to evaluate evaluate treatises to evaluate findings scientific we've used them both in science science is based on them. The law is based on them. And I think it's important for you to feel that there are facts there and the logic there and for you it does make sense. But for other people they don't have to be to ferry people to disagree with you. Well that's true and they certainly have a right to their opinion but they can be sincerely wrong and somebody sent somebody can think that somebody can think that drain o is is Cossar up and he can sincerely think that rhino is soft cough syrup and you'll kill him.

Well you're setting obviously no rules of logic but if you know about arguments you're setting up an extreme illustration to make your point. You write as if it were less extreme would it be less valid. Well the point of the matter is I think you mean that not everybody would fit into that extreme argument. I think that your you have a logic for the way you believe. And you're assuming that the logic everybody should accept and they don't. Yeah I am Nixon assuming that there are some rules of logic. I didn't make them. Nobody mellowing upon them in a way that assumes that they're valid to such an extent that everybody should believe them. And I don't think that that's really that's logical thinking. I have to jump in at this point and say let's move on to another caller. Appreciate the caller's comments. Let's go to southern Illinois here lie number four. Hello how are you doing. I wanted to call earlier and you were to get any calls and then these other calls kind of kind of heard me the call you know I had been

weighing heavily on the mind the last week. As to the existence of God. And you know I believe in God too and. And but we all have a degree of belief that is that is all to our own you know and I got to thinking well. I was recalled a dream that I had in which I know I sound crazy. But anyway I recall a dream that I had had that was so serious to me that one of my children had died you know in my dream and it was it was real to me I woke up in sweats but in the dream I convinced myself that I was only dreaming. And this was only a dream and I kept screaming that out until the point where I woke up and I was thankful that I had woke up because it was only a dream and my child was still alive. And I got to thinking about that. And people within ordinary life you know reality is only real to us as to what I see is real but reality to you is different than it is to me. And so I look at that and I say OK well I did not buy when I look at it you know I go to

church and I look at people trying to get a healing and stuff and I say. You know I'm screamin out. Most people seem to be screaming out this is not real dream and this. This cannot be happening to the point to deny the power of God. And so then. And that sense you know I'm going I am. My mind is tricking me and believing in my dreams that God I mean that that it's not true. This is not real and in my waking hours my mind still continues to trick me in the same thing. So you know in a sense to me I've come to the conclusion and this was the conclusion I was looking for obviously but I had to weigh it out my mind that to deny God I would have to in turn deny myself I just want to say I don't know if you had to say anything Alling up and thank you. Well can you comment on that. Well I think that it's very hard to comment on that because there's so many

pieces to it but I think one of the things that's important is that we do have a responsibility. To educate our own conscience to look for as much data and information as we can. To come to a decision on our own. One of the things though is that it's not simply. A journey by ourselves. I think we need to also. Consult people people who once were in terms of their writings like in the. The previous caller before the last one and find it in the sense of people who are around now and writings and people who are around before us to try to educate our conscience and find a belief that we feel you know corresponds with. With what makes sense to us. And then once we do that we then can take the next step of exploring that faith.

And seeing if in fact it does. Respond to. What we feel is true what we feel is right and. That's a great deal of responsibility for us but. I think it is a responsibility but we need not go it alone. Let's get at least one more call or hear someone from a car phone line number one. Hello. Yes good morning. I bet nobody called because we were all listening fascinated. And so I hope this is one of the programs that you'll repeat. And I just wanted to thank your callers. Well all right very good. I just yes. That was it. Yes. All right well I thank you for the call I appreciate that. Well let's try and see if we get one more another Indiana call here line number four. Hello. It's called they're on line for. Yes go ahead. I just got in on this conversation but I think you're talking about religion and I would recommend an article that appeared in The New York Times

Magazine January 14th by Natalie Angier Confessions Of A Lonely atheist. I think it tells more about religion than anything I've read in a long time. Thank you. All right. You know one thing that that I find very interesting. Is that it seems to me that from from listening to your in the way that you responded to the question I asked about meditation. It seems that within Christianity there there has been relatively recently a great rediscovery of what I would call mysticism. And I I'm sure that that tradition has always been there in Christianity but that it's been somewhat downplayed. And I am interested in the fact that it seems to be happening and also in why. Well first of all I think you do know that it has been.

And Christianity for years Christianity has a richness of prayer and terms of mysticism silence and solitude. Conversations with God talking to God reflection during the day and countering scripture formal prayer praying together. I mean because Christiana DI is not a religion of the solitude it's we go to God together. Journaling I think that the emphasis on mysticism now is because we've gotten so into rationalism so into science and recently with people looking at science looking at economics looking at a lot of the things that have not fulfilled our dreams we have more and more and we feel less and less people began to look to another dimension and within Christianity has and with other major religions there is this other dimension this dimension of the mysterious this dimension of the inner. And when we feel this sense of inner peace then we're able to go and serve each other with the

sense of freedom as opposed with the sense of duty. We're able to feel in the midst of troubles a sense that God is with us. And that's very very important. I think peace is not security. Joy is not pleasure it's something greater and that greater thing is found in prayer. Well we are going to have to leave it at this point because we've just come to the end of that. Time David we're just getting warmed up. I know I'm sorry but well I guess we'll have to tell people who are here in and around Champaign-Urbana if they're interested in hearing more from our guest Robert Wicks. They should attend the talk this is the last of the final in the 11 part series dialogue into the millennium. This will take place this week Thursday February 1st St. Patrick's parish center seven eight West Main Street in ur Bana. And if you are anybody who is around Champaign-Urbana should feel welcome to attend and of course if you can't. Our guest Robert Wicks has published over 30 books including some titles touching the holy seeds of sensitivity. After 50 and living a gentle

passionate life Dr. Robert Wicks Professor chair of the graduate programs and pastoral counseling at Loyola College in Baltimore Maryland. Dr. X thank you very much for talking with us. You're very welcome David.