Focus 580; Perceptions of the War on Terrorism in Islamic Societies

Good morning this is Focus 580 our morning telephone talk show. My name is Jack Brighton filling in for David Inge. Glad you could listen today during this hour focused 580 will be talking about perceptions in Islamic societies of the events of September 11th and the subsequent war on terrorism. We have as our guests three scholars who have connections and insight via their professions a linguistic abilities and background into the news media and public dialogue in various nations in the Middle East Africa and Asia. We want to emphasize that they are not here to represent or speak for anyone in these nations they are simply here to share with us what they have gleaned from paying attention to what is being said in these areas about the issues. So if you hear anything disturbing that during this hour please don't pin it on our guests there they are only passing on to us what they know other people are saying. Our guests are about to spend my moon. He's professor of linguistics and acting director of the South Asia and Middle Eastern Studies Program of the University of Illinois. He's originally from Morocco. Marilyn booth and is independent scholar and translator she speaks and reads Arabic in French as well as English and

a professor of economics here at the University of Illinois originally from Iran. They're here to talk about what they perceive of that dialogue you know various places around the world. And as we talk with them you are welcome to join the conversation all you have to do is call us around Champaign-Urbana at 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 3 3 3 w oil wealthy match letters with the numbers that's what you get. We also have a toll free line. Anywhere you hear us around Illinois Indiana parts of the states are a signal reaches via the Internet anywhere in the U.S. 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Again around Champaign-Urbana you can join us at 3 3 3 W I L L toll free elsewhere. 800 1:58 oil to the three of you good morning. Good morning. Thanks for being here. If you have each been observing the reaction in the press in other places in certain Islamic nations and staying in touch with people and so forth and maybe we can just you know start by. Asking what was the initial reaction to the September 11th attacks on the

World Trade Center and the Pentagon they will just go around the table here and start with a bust in the moon. First it's important to have the very diverse societies. So you are going to have to get a whole spectrum of points of view and opinions about what happened on September 11th and afterwards. And as far as the initial reaction it was in the beginning kind of disbelief that in fact you know Muslim groups could do this. I think I could you know organize this and and stage it and they can start. But then afterwards it became obvious that in fact these were really Muslim individuals who carried this attack. So do you know there was going to say you know in various places you know again I don't I haven't you know been in touch as you have with a lot of these places that are you know where this dialogue is occurring. I think that there's probably a lot of conflicted opinion about the United States. That's correct. It's great there are various points of view there. And so you get you

know conservatives and liberals as there are those who want to establish good relations with the West and there are those who want to read it you have more independent identity that is quite well demarcated from the west. So you get all these diverse points of view and of course their reaction to September 11th is going to be colored by those. But they debate as well. But in general would you say that people or use it use the word disbelief that this would be done you know by its own people. Yeah that's correct because you know when you look at the history of terrorism whether it's in the Middle East or in Europe where it has been there was nothing descale that in fact the scale of the attacks was just the enormity of it and the horror was just unbelievable. So there was this reaction that in fact this probably could not be you know a group that originates from the area. How useful honey what would you say in answer to that. I think a lot of things that Abbas mentioned are also a

percentage of what happened in Iran though probably there was a more uniform sense of sympathy for the victims of the event in Iran. There was in fact a spontaneous demonstration in Tehran showing sympathy in vigil at night with candles showing sympathy for the victims and also there was widespread condemnation of the events both within the government and outside so that there was more uniform probably reaction in Iran. But of course it's not talking about one country it's talking about sure a lot of countries in North Africa. I'm curious about Iran you mentioned that both the government and the people reacting spontaneously in sympathy. To what extent you know would the government make us make a statement or you know sort of. Well speak out on the issue in Iran.

You know whatever statements in the press or otherwise the elected officials in Iran a large extent due to present points of views public point of view sent and they were the first who came out and condemned the event and also have been pushing more towards having a dialogue with the U.S. or getting closer to the U.S. on some issues especially on Afghanistan and some international issues. But the public opinion was such that even even the conservatives who normally once used them as opposing the U.S. came out and condemned the event though later on they in terms of negotiating with the U.S. They've taken a hard line again. OK now let's turn to Marilyn booth scholar and translator and you have been paying attention to the press in Egypt for the most part in Egypt and also a couple of region wide newspapers that are widely read

throughout the region and that are highly regarded for having perhaps more of a degree of. Freedom and of not being quite as close to any one government line. I would say I would very much agree with with what how do you know this said. I think that one indication of the initial disbelief was that throughout the press there were calls for evidence. We've certainly heard this coming from all over the region and all over the world and this country two people have said well you know what evidence what do we have and so forth and that was very widespread and in the Arab press they said well aren't people jumping to conclusions remember. You know previous cases and we really want to see hard evidence that has of course died down because it does seem to have become more and more obvious who has done it. I think although maybe we still haven't gotten a lot of hard evidence but but certainly that was a very very dominant

theme in the press early on. There was definitely a lot of sympathy and a lot of horror at this happening. The official line in Egypt also as well as expressing sympathy. It was one of saying well you know we have been experiencing terrorism for quite some time and not not a sort of not to sort of say well now you guys understand but to sort of say you haven't been paying enough attention to what we've been saying I mean this has been very much President Mubarak's line on that as well that you could have been benefiting more from some of our expertise and he for quite some time has been calling for an international conference on terrorism and of course has said this several times since the events of September 11. So there's a concern there that the United States did not take seriously the possibility of well not just an attack on the United States but the fact that Egypt and other countries have been dealing with for some time.

I think that it's an emphasis on the United States not taking seriously the possible scale of discontent and feelings that could lead to this and being somewhat removed from that and not seeing it as something that really would have effects on the United States and that really everyone in the world ought to be paying attention to and it's a way also of course of emphasizing. The causes that people see behind these actions rather than simply the actions themselves. OK now let me ask you how has the reaction changed since the U.S. began military attacks in Afghanistan has. Has the mood or the attitude changed. I would say very much so. Certainly I think that there is not a lot of support. I mean it's very hard to say because as best said we're talking about a very very diverse region and certainly diverse populations within each country.

And but I think by and large people find it very hard to support the American attacks on Afghanistan. They feel that this is this is very much targeting innocent people and a lot of parallels are made with the situation in Iraq and the continuing unhappiness of people in the region over the sanctions against Iraq. And I think that. There's also been I mean I think there's actually been a lot of fairy I think very profound analysis in the press that I've seen and a lot of soul searching. One friend of mine in Egypt made the comment to me recently that things have really the level of debate in the press has become much more serious since September 11th and I think that one of the themes too that has come out more and more is the whole question of what what is terrorism how do we define terrorism and very much a call for as I think said in the last hour for an

international standard that everyone can hold to reducing Audiovox phone I would you say about that I mean how how has the reaction changed in the past month or so as far as the reaction to the event of the events of September 11th. That hasn't changed is there. Since the war on Afghanistan began the attitude has changed in the way that people cannot find this approach acceptable. This is I'm talking about the general feeling one gets from interviews from talking to friends etc. that they think that the war is not conducted in as precise manner as being advertised. And also other avenues have not been explored possibilities and not enough planning. Think about what comes next to where this war is going etc. In fact if anything there's some suspicion that the war is going to be

used for the U.S. to establish presence in Afghanistan. Yes and to open up the or make it easier for the U.S. to have control and access to Central Asia through Pakistan and Afghanistan and that has left a very uneasy feeling among Iranians because they feel that this is going to be used to impose increased sanctions on them and cut off relations with Central Asia between Iran and Central Asia and cetera. And they are very uncomfortable about the potential outcomes. And there's a feeling that. Here in the U.S. there's a feeling that you know we were bombing Afghanistan to get get at the terrorists. And it's right to do that and you know the civilian casualties are inevitable because you have a good cause. That's fine but the point of view from

what I hear from Iran is that well the U.S. may be using this occasion for other purposes they may not be careful enough it civilians. And there are some examples from the past and example that's arising right now that makes one question whether this is enough care is being taken and also the long term intentions are what they have stated to be. So this makes people very uncomfortable. And the general feeling is that this is not being done that war is not being conducted the right way. Moon What would you say to that. How has the feeling changed since the U.S. started attacking Afghans. As for the list say North Africa Morocco and Algeria I mean again you get a different reactions. There are those who explicitly said that if the United States has been subjected to a vicious attack and therefore it has the rights or for self-defense I mean that in fact this is an act of self-defense. This is clear from the perjury and government the president of Algeria was up front

saying that's actually you know the United States has a right to do what it is they were now and the reason I think is that because our jury has been going through a civil war. Right. And the official statistics is that a hundred thousand people have been killed in the last 10 years. And just everyone just to govern on is a really vicious war. So there is that and also when you know there haven't been many the most Russians the Algerian streets and like you know some of the parts of the Arab which is an interesting reaction by itself and the other countries. I mean you get kind of like implicit endorsement from the governments that Inform United States action but they also emphasize that in fact we should minimize you know civilian casualties that in fact a war should not extend into Ramadan and things like that. There have been also debates about other issues. I mean there is the issue that's Mary mentioned that in fact some kind of source ocean has been going on in the area and this has been a really interesting thing to see this effects column after column article after article talking about why you know

you know what's going on in Islamic society is that in fact it has enabled you know some of these groups I mean to develop and and develop this kind of you know a tendency to use violence to advance their political goals. You have also been for sis on the you know the you know Arabs and Muslims in Europe and the United States and their plight that's what they see as their plight in terms of that in fact they are afraid. They feel that they are being subjected to harassment. I think that this is also receiving a lot of coverage in the Arab media. Another issue also that has been discussed and that is the economic impact on the area which has been really enormous for example a country like Egypt has seen a huge drop in tourism if you like you know right 50 percent Morocco descent and these are countries that relied extensively on tourism. Its main source of their currency foreign currency and they are seeing the impact in a big way and they're also afraid that in fact you know

that. There are guest workers in Europe and the United States might not be as welcome and therefore that also might impact their economies so we get in. The whole spectrum vs yours you know we have a caller talks and I promise we'll get right to them but I just want to follow up with one question to Chris Professor been a moon you mentioned in particular Algeria where there is ongoing civil war and you know a few years ago the Islamic political party actually won the election the government said no sorry you're not going to take over. And so obviously there was a clash there between the secular government and a large percentage of the population that voted for the Islamic political party I just wonder if there is a sort of disconnect between the government and you know perhaps a majority of Algerian people on some of these issues. Well I mean and what the government says is that you know the votes are for the Islamists in the early 90s was not really a vote for them it was a protest vote against the government. But of course the Islamists another way they're saying you know we're going to win the elections and then

they're bored with that election and therefore this shows that you know the government was not serious about democracy and does not want to engage in fair play. You know there is some kind of disconnect all over the area and in fact you know because most of these governments are not elected governments. And this is a big issue. I mean you look at the whole area. I mean with some few exceptions I would for example Lebanon which might sound odd but actually Lebanon is one of the most democratic countries in terms of the freedom of the press and that's in fact the elections and to some extent fair Morocco to some extent. You know there is some freedom of the press there is an opposition now in government so you get some few countries that you know more open than others but the majority of them I mean the governments you know are not like elected then it's accountable to their people. And many of them you have a one party system or no parties at all like in the Gulf states many in the Gulf states. So there is that disconnect of course and you know so we're not surprised that in fact there may be something like that in Nigeria as well.

Well we have a call to talk with why don't we do that and we'll welcome others by the way we're talking with three University of Illinois scholars here about their perceptions from their readings and conversations with people in various Islamic societies about the war on terrorism the events of the past month and a half or so of us been Mahmoud he's professor of linguistics Marilyn booth in Pensacola and translator and Hadi guess the Hunley professor of economics at the University of Illinois. We have one caller and others are welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 around Champaign-Urbana elsewhere 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Let's talk with a listener in Savoy on one number one. Good morning. Yes thank you. I wonder if the callers could say something about the long term impact of America's domestic response to them to the terrorist attacks. What I have in mind for example in Malaysia I know that in the weeks and months leading up to September 11th the democratic opposition there was making it seem to be making very

great headway toward getting rid of legislation in the country that allows the government to detain people arbitrarily allows the government to engage in torture of basically its opponents. And they had launched a campaign to convince the populace that this is something that really is is improper and we need to get rid of it. A lot of people were listening but then after September 11 the prime minister of Malaysia is able to say See. Look even America is learning from us. They know that you know we have America has passed laws to detain people without judicial review American FBI is talking about how they might have to torture some of their you know people that they have in detention to get information from them American government is putting you know pressure on the media not to tell the other side of the story just to tell the official side of the story to see what's what's wrong with what we're doing here we're just we're just doing what every you know what has to be done. Can you say something about the countries that you're monitoring about how America's domestic reaction

might have a long term impact on efforts of democratization in those various countries and I'll hang up and listen. Thank you. Thanks for the call. Well I would say that I think that that's certainly a concern. And for instance in Egypt for a long time has been a great deal of concern among human rights groups there. And there and outside about the government's treatment of prisoners most of whom in recent years have been members or alleged members of Islamist groups. And that is a concern but I think that in some ways this may in fact embolden people because. In a sense it gives them an international platform on which to say look these issues of freedom and of human rights and of treatment are international issues. And I think that in a sense it contributes also to the debate by allowing people to explore some specific

aspects of an issue that I think has been very very important for a long time which is the widespread perception in the region that the American government does not actually practice what it preaches. I mean in fact that the American government does not. Does not actually believe in freedom in quite the same way that it says it does as evidenced by some of its actions around the globe in past years and I would say also as a response to this and also just to follow up on what I best said about the disconnect across the region. I have found when I've been in Egypt and other places in the region that people in general no matter what their level of education are very sophisticated politically and they do not. They do not necessarily identify populations with their governments and this is certainly very much of a as I've asked suggested a product of

situations in the region where people are very very aware that their governments are NOT do not necessarily reflect popular opinion popular vote. But then for the same reason even though they do know that we have a democratic system they're also very they are very aware of various kinds of inequalities in the United States both economically and how that effects affects the political system. And I think that they don't necessarily assume that we always agree with our governments either and I know that people are always very very careful to say to me we're aware that you may have different views than your government has and I think that this can actually contribute to the increasing amount of debate that I see in the region at least within the newspapers and so it's following up on what Marilyn said I think that under long term there may be some positives actually coming out as

debates increase and intensify. But in the short term the fact the caller's actually pointing to very very important phenomenon and it is very correct that. The current trend is to more repression and more restrictions on human rights etc.. For one thing the US government is actually causing up to governments that are very oppressive because it needs them. An example government in this Pakistan a lot of governments in the Gulf region cetera and even in a country like Iran who are the U.S. government doesn't have a role in direct role in the OR for any role probably in the domestic politics. And the conservatives are using the occasion to increase repression or oppose any democratic democratization. But in the short run there's going to be a lot more pressure both in terms of anti terrorism or those who are opposing the U.S. policy in terms

of repressing that. The other side that you should not be talking about talking to the U.S. or if it's a dialogue with the U.S. inside Iran. So this is going to have a negative impact on democratization in the short run longer run there may be actually for other forces at work both debates within the region and also U.S. policy might change for them in ways that in the longer term in ways that are going to be support more supportive of democratization in the region. Yeah I mean agree with everything that was said I mean this is one of the big concerns in the area namely that in fact this might lead to some kind of more repression in the area. But at the same time there have been also some you know discussion about you know that in fact there is a need to open up the political process that in fact when you close the political space I mean you would leave the room for underground

organizations and movements I mean to develop and Flora's whereas in fact if you open up the political space you might be able to marginalize extremist groups that may have a long term they may have a positive impact over good. We have several calls waiting let's go on and talk with our next listener on line number two in pain. Good morning. Well I just wanted to make a few statements and then you can see my question but I I am a Roman Catholic I was raised protestant. And they are in our religion class. We are teaching the Old Testament this. Here. And we also went over the basic Christian and Moslem basics of the religion. And my point is though that if we could just

find a place to moderate because all three were legions are leading to the same thing rather be ya way. Allah our God. And I know I have a Moslem doctor a very good specialist a wonderful man. He just worked on me recently and he told me that the Moslems who believe that Christ is a great teacher a great person and that Mother Mary and Side Story mom is Catholic he said. And we think so much of the Great Mother Mary that she's a wonderful person and I think it's long past time. That we moderate and not be quite so one sided about these things because it's one more.

And I know the great horror of New York and Pennsylvania and marching to me is a horror and it's almost an impossible task to get this straightened out. It's long past time we moderated and began to see the world as a whole. And I'll just hang up and listen to your comment OK. Well you know how about that I think that most people have said most I mean what I'm hearing from around the world is you know most you know Christians Jews Muslims all essentially you know there are the religions of peace. I mean they don't there's not a doctrine of you know blowing up buildings. You know that's not according to the scriptures of anyone basically. We're not here to discuss religion necessarily but if you want to say anything you can but I mean there is a discussion.

Actually no I mean in the Arab press and the Muslim press that's about the danger that this might become a clash of civilization is a name that in fact Islam and the West and the side that in fact has been a builder of civilizations it was a good custody of Greek heritage in the middle ages and they're European not only sounds better you know on an Islamic scholarship Absolutely and that those things should be emphasized that this is really a small group that is hijacking Islam. I mean to make a political point and that Islam has nothing to do with that but it is a builder of civilization and that you know do you give examples from history for example during the Inquisition. You know the Jewish community and the U.S. have found a safe haven in Muslim countries. You know in in Morocco and Turkey. And you find that's all over the Arab and Islamic world that in fact there was tolerance you know at some point Islam was a bridge of civilization but there is this.

This is warning now that this is in fact may be used what happened September 11 about to be used I mean to start some kind of like confrontation between Islam and the ones this is a very interesting point and you know if you want to respond to that that's fine but I mean there is an analysis that says this war is not between the U.S. and al Qaeda or you know fundamentalist radical you know Islamic terrorists. But between the radical fundamentalists and the secular governments of the Islamic nations who they feel are not true to Islam and us is simply their proxy because we supported these governments. Is that too simplistic a view of things or are people you know discuss what people say about that. Well I think that's definitely definitely an element of it and I think that that again another theme that I've certainly found widespread in my reading recently has been soul searching on the part of intellectuals and people saying you know we have to stand up and we have to take a stand. We have to let people know that.

Because one is a devout Muslim does not at all mean that one has to subscribe to any of these views and of course we've heard that a lot here and I think that all of these issues very much point to the need for for more education and so forth. Well you're asking a very good question because one of the observations I have on the development of Islamic fundamentalism in the region is that a lot of the governments in the region have tried to repress their populations. And it's been they found it much easier to suppress secular movements within their within their countries. Religion is something people have it and they want to practice it and there's only so much you can you can repress it in people. People do it privately and governments you know to to maintain a minimum level of support within the population they have not touched that part. What that has done is that it has created the biased environment who are some

views have had some opportunities to grow because of the association so they've been allowed to function under the name of Islam and other associations which were not Islamic were very easy to suppress. So that. As a result you see the fundamentalism come from the Islamic side although that probably has nothing to do with Islamic teachings for the simple reason that you know people have been living with this religion for years and also people around the world want to have a good life to live. And you know think of themselves as being good citizens of the world. It's not the case that people who believe in one religion and another really think about themselves as somebody who should go out there and destroy the other person. And we've seen of course terrorism in around the world it's Northern Ireland or Colombia or elsewhere it has nothing to do. I think one of the elements that has led to the growth of Islamic fundamentalism the way we see it

is the way governments have been repressing their populations. And also there's some problem with the U.S. policy in the region that has galvanized this opposition in the form of anti-U.S. anti-American feeling. If I could just add something briefly to that too. I think that in certain places and again I have to speak about Egypt because that's what I know best. It's been some of the groups that defined themselves in Islamic terms that have actually been pretty been providing a lot of social services as a result. And the government these are social services such as medical. You know medical and social And you know and even sort of rebuilding after the earthquakes in Cairo several years ago and that kind of thing. And so that in a sense the government has often lost credibility with people and they've seen you know really which groups are able to produce these and sort of you have been able to give them a better life and so I think that that's been also a sort of on the

ground aspect of this growing conflict or grow a growing standoff perhaps between governments and these other groups. Very interesting we have several calls to talk with and we have just about maybe 10 15 minutes left so let's go on and include some more callers Next up a listener in Champaign on line number three. Good morning your own focus 580. Hello. Yes yes you like so yeah I would like to add something to this that is in discussion forum with a Saudi official if you don't you know at this time there's not only one government there is a government to government. And you are talking about the government if you're not sure got talking about but crossing back to their hearts I mean trying to mother your aunt but another the religion group they are not the same route right now. Is it a three foot who is the name. Yeah I'm me and

he's cool. They are paid like a $200000000. Yeah just two of the. Group off is what is probably a group my peers would not linking to other groups I'm not thinking a hundred percent sure but I would like to Mr. Salley point I just point to the differences within your own are certainly very important and the current events in the region are affecting the way and the two groups are relating to each other but it one interesting thing is that on. Positions and U.S. policy for example condemning U.S. attacks on Afghanistan. It's interesting to see that there's a lot more uniformity across party politicians in Iran and this is goes back to the discussion we had before that people don't think that the way the war is conducted is the right the right way at least from the Iranian

perspective and they see some potential problems in the future. So but definitely the caller is absolutely right that there is differences and the tensions have intensified. There's one issue that has been raised recently and that's the approach of Ramadan. And I wonder if there is a lot of discussion about that and the fact that the U.S. is essentially the Secretary Defense Donald Rumsfeld has basically said well that's not going to stop it's not a consideration for us. Is that likely to be a very sort of inflammatory situation from what you can tell. I would say that perhaps from at least from my from my reading I would say that that's not the basic inflammatory issue than the basic inflammatory issue is the American bombing of Afghanistan and there might be on happiness at seeing a continue in Ramadan but there's so much unhappiness about it anyway that I think perhaps that's I don't know what I would share that view

that the main issue is the way the war is being conducted and Ramadan may be used forth to try to reduce the intensity of bombings etc. or oppose it. But I don't think that's a major issue in the debate at least in Iran there's not not not much mention of that. I mean looking at it from a larger perspective it's important to understand that you know when you see anger or you know some kind of outrage in the Arab and Islamic world at United States action it's in Afghanistan it is not you know military action persay but it is at what they see as the inconsistency. US foreign policy that in fact you want Iraq to implement or the United Nations resolutions but you don't set the same standard let's say for Israel's occupation for Palestinian land. And that's what inflames public opinion that in fact you know there are

Muslim governments you know some of them you know acquiescing to me that American military action but they're going to do anything as far as the Palestinian case is concerned so that's this is really what what what what is inflaming the situation now which is important to note is also that you know now the United States has also been doing a better job in this case than in the previous cases in terms of trying to explain its side of the story to the Arab and Islamic world. For example they went on Al-Jazeera the satellite channel. Rumsfeld Rice Powell Blair all of these you know officials went on the TV I mean trying to explain that in fact this is not a war against Islam that this is really a war against the Taliban and Al Qaida and so so this is a different you know. You know approach from the United States than from the previous wars and I think this is the reason probably why you're not seeing the same let's say outrage that you saw let's say during the Gulf War before.

We have just about 10 minutes left during this hour focus 580 let me just reintroduce our guests real quickly. We're talking with of us been mumu a professor of linguistics and acting director of the South Asian Middle Eastern Studies Program here at the University of Illinois who's both voice you just heard Marilyn booth independent scholar and translator and Hadi as the professor of economics at the University of Illinois. And we're talking about what they can share with us from reading the press paying attention to the media in various Islamic societies around the world. We're not asking them to give their views but the views as they see reported elsewhere and we have a couple callers waiting. Let's go on next to a listener in number one. Good morning. Yes I have a question relating more directly to the press I guess. It seems that perhaps the administration has decided they may not be winning the war of ideas or propaganda or if you cover you care to call it and that they are going to introduce or establish

Information Service directed at the Middle East and the Islamic world. I wonder how effective you think this will be. Well I would resort to the old saying that actions speak louder than words. I don't think people are frankly going to pay that much attention unless they see some real changes in American actions. We have cherished Marilyn's view it's not been changed thanks much. I agree. Just a quick follow up the US is often done similar things I but remember in the case of Cuba we set up a you know a jamming stations a Cuban TV couldn't be heard can be viewed by Cubans and they would hear you know they didn't see the TV that the US broadcast and I just I guess I wonder if that you know to people people are really I mean they're not stupid. I mean I think they probably think that yeah that's OK well let's go on we have another listener waiting on line number two in Urbana. Good morning.

Yeah I read a article by our own. The author of got a small thing. She's an Indian and recently about a week ago in The Guardian and she was very critical of the US saying that the kinds of freedoms we uphold outside our borders are the freedom to dominate humiliate and subjugate their real religion is really the free market. Nothing else she says that will. We know that infinite justice for us means infinite injustice for others and so on. She also talked about how. New Yorkers would feel if the situation were reversed and they were being bombed. In pursuit of one small group within our borders. Now on satisfying the kind of PR that's coming from

our people would be some just wondering in terms of India as anybody they're willing to speak about what their present reaction to all this is understand that they for example are worried that our cozying up to to Pakistan. Sure might mean something in terms of Kashmir because they see a lot of Pakistanis performing quote terrorist unquote actions against Kashmir. I don't know much about the situation in India but in terms of the last comment I want to just say that Pakistanis think that the Kashmir is theirs now that they are supporting the U.S. effort. And Indians think that because of their support Kashmir is there's absolutely and I'm afraid that this is not going to contribute to more to a calmer place in Kashmir.

You know I think we're going to have to do a separate hour on this very topic because it is a big one and I think a very important one. So we will perhaps leave that there for now and come back to it on another occasion. Let me ask you to talk a little bit about a couple things that I know have been really central to least the dissatisfaction with the United States among a large number of people that I think perhaps bin Laden and al Qaeda is tapping into. And there we could probably you know come up with a longer listen this but certainly you know the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ongoing and the United States presence in support of a very undemocratic government in Saudi Arabia. You know the center essentially of the Islamic universe and you know these are debates that were going on long before anyone was saying you know it's all in the name of Osama bin Laden. But to what extent has he sort of you know. Hijacked or taken over as. Like someone who was key to that debate.

I think hijack is the right word. I think the Palestinians were very upset actually that he was that as an excuse. I mean for his attacks on the United States and actually his big gripe is Reed it is with the United States presence in the Gulf and the bases in Saudi Arabia that is a big issue as far as democracy is concerned. Well you know I don't I don't think anybody is really going to support him for that because you know the Taliban regime that we have in Afghanistan I don't think any Muslim would want to have that kind of regime and would would like to defend that kind of regime. And so you know I think he's he's certainly taken on symbolic importance but I think that's more in the region I think has symbolic importance has increased since the U.S. bombing. Because you know now he's he's sort of the hunted and he's sort of the not quite martyr figure but you know there's an element of that. But I would certainly agree that you know people are upset because this also. Means that there can be a deflection of

attention away from these issues and you know I think whether whether or not bin Laden cares cares about the Palestinians that is a major major way. Cause around the region and I think that if the U.S. were really to try to show you know what people in the region would see as a more even handed policy. That's the kind of action that might well make a difference in terms of people's attitudes towards things at the moment and towards the U.S. government. Just briefly adding to that of course knowing the region as a whole one gets the feeling that bin Laden has taken the form of a folk hero for some. But interestingly in Iran there's no sympathy for him in fact people experiencing some fundamentalism in the past especially in the government. They that's the last thing they want to see and happen. Also being a

Sunni Muslim he's not very much favored by the majority Shia Muslims in Iran. So I don't think there is a whole lot of sympathy or sympathy for him in the Iranian fact if there's anything. People would like to see the Taliban and bin Laden go. And that makes them actually favored to some extent whatever action United States takes to take care of that. You know I think if I could just add one thing to that I think that's that's certainly very true and I mean there's a he has this kind of symbolic status now but it doesn't really mean that people are sympathetic towards him and I think that more generally as well. Salman Rushdie had a op ed piece this morning in The New York Times where he said that this this sort of very sort of Islam that the Taliban claims to be practicing. It is the fastest growing kind of Islam in the region Well I don't know if that's true. But

what he didn't say I don't think was that it's still that is still a very tiny number of people compared to Muslims in the region and I think most people you know in the region just have very little use for the kind of regime that the Taliban has shown itself to be. Well unfortunately we're here at about the point we're going to have to stop. And there's much more we can talk about but I think it's been a good conversation and hopefully you know listeners got something for diversity of views represented by the people in the places we've been talking about. A better understanding. Our guest during this hour have been Abbas but my moon He's professor of linguistics acting director of the South Asia and Middle Eastern Studies Program here at the University of Illinois. Marilyn booth independent scholar and translator and audience phonic professor of economics here at the University of Illinois. And to all three of you thank you so much for talking with us. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.