Focus 580; Current Events In Afghanistan

In this part of focus 580 will be talking about recent events in Afghanistan and also in Pakistan our guest for the program is Kathy Gannon. She is a career journalist with The Associated Press. She is the current AP bureau chief for Pakistan and Afghanistan at the moment she is on leave with the Council on Foreign Relations she has. Edward R. Murrow Press Fellow she has been covering this region for 14 years. She saw the rise and fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan she was the only Western journalist in Kabul when the Taliban fell in 2001 she was also in Pakistan and Afghanistan during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and witnessed the deck the death of one time Pakistani dictator a hawk She's been following these events for quite a long time has been interviewed on the CBC on CNN and the BBC and of course her work is distributed by the Associated Press. She's been good enough to give us some of her time this morning she's talking with us by telephone. And as we talk of questions and comments are certainly welcome the only thing we ask of callers says that they're brief so that we can keep the

program moving and get as many people as possible but of course anyone who is listening is welcome to call here in Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also have a terror free line to go to anywhere that you can hear us. That is eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Hello hello. Thank you very much for talking with us. Thank you. We certainly appreciate you giving us your time. I'd like to begin with perhaps a little bit about Pakistan. You have a piece that just appeared just published in today's L.A. Times and there's been some other reporting on this about the fact that apparently expertise to develop nuclear weapons and maybe even more than that has leaked from Pakistan to places like Iran and Libya and apparently now the big question is as as you write and and other reporters have written just exactly how did this happen and who is it that was responsible for this information getting out of Pakistan and was it the was it on the

military side of things or was on the scientific side of things. Can you talk about that. Sure. But this nuclear program is it has been it is run by the military and the military is in complete control of its program including of its scientists and it is difficult to imagine given the control of the military in Pakistan and its pervasive intelligence network that the community working on the nuclear. Program could act completely independent that some small scale for possibly you know but any any larger scale exchange of knowledge. Would it seem almost We put me in my mind human possible without military knowledge. So I think that now it's a matter of trying to deflect who might be responsible

and directing it to what I think the community but the military in Pakistan has complete control and it really is difficult to imagine and keep in mind the military Pakistani military what U.S. ally during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan when each year the US president signed off saying that they were confident that Pakistan was not developing a nuclear weapon when in fact it was quite clear that they were humming along with that program. And then in 1900 after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan in February 1990 and they the U.S. said oh we have to punish Pakistan for its nuclear program or cutting off all military and humanitarian aid. That left them without any resources for a program that had been going on for quite some time. Which is done in India toward developing its nuclear program. Nobody is saying

anything to them and so if an expensive proposition and so I think that there is a lot there that it's not bad. A lot went on without any need for it with any discussion about it and return to it and I think that it's just again a military thing control and it would be very difficult for the military today to say well you know we did this when of course they've always been denying it. What would be the motivation of the Pakistani government or military for doing this. Well you know. I mean again it's speculation. But in 1990 after being one of the largest recipients of U.S. aid in 1990 Pakistan was completely cut off in military and humanitarian aid. Yet it still had. Would it be an enemy in India. It

had a program that was being developed with any nuclear program it is always in a development stage gear finances maintaining your deterrence if you see a need for deterrence. When all military aid with Koppel Pakistan had been buying U.S. F-16 had been purchasing U.S. military equipment. So when military aid was cut off its conventional strength also then began to suffer. Because it was no longer able to get parts it would no longer it had an order in for 18 F-16 that believe that awarded without any suspended. So your conventional on one side your conventional strength is is under threat to your boss but the carrier ration while you don't have your perceived enemy and you have a nuclear program that you no longer have any many for. And there is an element within the military in the military to vary. As a religious element to it

and. And so there might even have been some ideological I don't think ideology was a motivator. I think if if anything it was just pure expense. If in fact that it occurred it was just pure exchange of either money for knowledge or weapons in the case of North Korea perhaps in exchange. Well as you say the relationship between Pakistan and United States has been very complicated. The it was very important to the United States during the time that the Russians were in Afghanistan because they were Pakistan was our conduit to the the Afghan rebels that were fighting the Russians now because we're fighting this thing we call the war on terror the administration calls the war on terror. Sure it's also an important ally then so from time to time. The way we feel about Pakistan and what they're what they're doing depends upon how at that moment whether we that is the United States feel we need them or not so sure what the what now does the. Do you think the government of United States does about this if

if the if they indeed determine that Pakistan was providing nuclear expertise to these nations like Iran for example that also has been called by the administration a kind of locus of terrorism. Yeah well I think first off it's pretty hard to take the moral high ground. I think that people have to be in my mind have to be you know thrown out because I think it's very difficult for the U.S. to take the moral high ground on this issue given how when that was needed they turned a blind eye and only said military dictatorship with military dictatorships which have priority in education and have done things that ordinary Pakistanis have that have come to haunt ordinary Pakistanis. I think you have to differentiate between the Pakistani population and the military. So I think what the should be doing is they should be reassessing their their. Partnership with the military looking at how to really strengthen the

Pakistani civil society which is the very fiber which is vibrant has potential. The military has been committed throughout its history to critically the Pakistani civil society and maintaining it. Now as a result at the strongest institution in Pakistan and as a result you don't have a strong political party culture. You don't have a public education system that is good and strong. There has been no investment there has been no consideration Anderton in that part of the Pakistani society and all the emphasis has been on the military. Well I think the military is shown to be a pretty poor partner. Pretty poor for Pakistan in terms of a development it within Pakistan. So I think that there has to be some real theory to explain it. You know the answer to withdraw from Pakistan and say gee don't horrible people they were selling nuclear technology. I don't think so. You know I

mean it's not like any oh my goodness where you know what I mean. A lot of history goes in there a lot of background a lot of you know winks and nods and nudges and everything that it's been allowed to to to go on so I think you have to sort of first move away from taking the moral high ground. Second look closely at what what are your objectives in Pakistan. Because you know Pakistani Americans always say you know if Pakistan a good friend of America where you know Pakistanis say you know has America been a good friend of Pakistan and in a way it's helped to bolster military that has consistently undermined civil society so I think there are some things that can be done. As I was saying and and I think you know you sort of go in and if you're interested truly interested in building a stable region that takes effort not just sort of short term involving for short term gain and

then it can be done again. That remains to be seen really. Maybe I should introduce Again our guest and we have a caller we'll get right to Kathy Gannon as a crew journalist with The Associated Press she is the current AP bureau chief for Pakistan and Afghanistan has been working in that region for 14 years who are at the moment. She is on leave with the Council on Foreign Relations in New York where she is Edward R. Murrow Press Fellow. And if you have questions about Pakistan Afghanistan you can call 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 4 Champaign-Urbana listeners we also have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We have someone in ur band on our line number one. Hello. There are yes yes. I have a question. Yes ma'am go ahead. I lied. And I am the wife of a universe of your own I professed there was a dean of engineering development and so far

they are. They being in Afghanistan and was there a precedent was present paradigm he passed through the State Department for far professors from the University of Illinois I took. This was the 1959 forty years ago I know because I had my 40th birthday and I'm now it is ironic. Anyway the far including my husband who are deceased and best kept we kept track of Afghanistan after the Russians took over and were goddamn and hacking their way toward the ocean. But anyway we had a wonderful and terp or his name or through else I and he was from Gauss Nam God made spend and I had my interest last week and I corresponded to him and my husband did to Ross Martin with that tribe.

I mean I made a stand some fat baby clothes and some foot band we never heard from him again I eyeballed thought that maybe the letters were intercepted or something and I will post office which was. For me I won. And anyway but I'm by quite you know say Have you ever run across. He would be a mess. Sixteen is now our interpreter and name was for Ruth else I am here. If he had been educated and no small power I can handle it. Somebody in same place was but in a State Department you know of him as an interpreter for our English speaking people. Well anyway if you're interested in every part I would be glad to have on it. I have I always wondered why we never heard from him again. Even the

packet just sat through Delphi from Gaffney. Yes well you know it's a very common cause it to try I mean if you check the hillside and then there are some tribes from near. You know there is no real postal system. I will take in me the rural areas into Christ me. Certainly it would be hit or miss because people don't have house numbers you know it. Well we had a house and her cook who had been wired much Marson got no time he no longer they were supplied by our US state. You know you might be good to people to help you locate him you know I know I know you know how to help but I've given up on them. Yeah because you know it's very skilled you know and I think the only way to sort of track him down if you have a contact in Kabul you know where or the wicked people are still in that house in Kabul that you knew

of. He might have left to go to Pakistan during the Russians he might have found to go into that state he might have you know there was so much because five million Afghans laugh during the Russian invasion and then it would taking it back or shock would at the time but that you'd be 45 years could have a fair shot who don't back it up get it out of there he laughed. When we left when I you know first of all no I came left and my house on a smart he hired a court reporter to go also. There every part of the biometric and I don't know if it was ever read by anybody in the State Department but it told it all President very shocked me that you're shocked. Yes name one of these four professors to help cobble universe. City get battered and

Mar democratic way and I don't knowit thing ever came from that because the Russians came in right after we left. Sure and we saw a lot of Afghans that very seriously went to their schools up there as a man were unable to go on to school children in schools where there were girls I did it for wrote it even invited me to come to us Al sometimes smuggled me hand because he had a sister that he wanted to marry. It shows it shows what a deeply conservative society Afghanistani is you know an entirely as you know it didn't hold conservative didn't didn't come with the Taliban and with the you know it's it's a very deeply conservative society in rural and so you know I mean girls are back at school but they're still you know a very in the villages you certainly have to have been separate in that you know and it's

a TV show you know your experiences in clearly shows that this is just the nature of the society at this point to slowly try to move forward. I'm so sorry I'm not you know I honestly I'm I wouldn't even know where to begin with the search for truth that I you know I mean if I say I I'm going to. I could I could have got me a latte. I like that area. I like a lot of different areas of Afghanistan. You know I'm happy if you write to the station and say you know to give the information that you know about it and I'm happy when I think I'm back in the summer to look around when I'm there I'm more than happy to do that if you'd like. Straight ahead I see don't know what else to do I'm so sorry. Yeah I appreciate the the the coming of the co-option forgive me also for wanting to move on to some others. She does have some information she'd like to pass on to us we can of course pass it on to the guest. Let's go to another caller here this is the line number two this is also in her Bama. Caller Hello. Yes good morning.

I saw actually on the Internet there's an article with common dreams about a U.S. planned spring offensive in Pakistan. I'm wondering if you're familiar with the article or if you had any comment. Do you have for us or maybe going further I guess the criteria. Sure no I didn't directly tell you but I know for sure that they are planning and they have been in there are special forces in the tribal area they always keep it low key because of the nature of the tribal region in that so they don't really play up the presence of U.S. Special Forces but they certainly are there and what they're talking about is what they call hot pursuit. So that if it's attacked right along the border and people launching those attacks into Pakistan that they go into Pakistan and hunt them down and find them. And and so I think that's what they're looking at. We're also looking at a fourth that will actually

mobilize in the tribal area particularly in the mountains along the border area. People just don't realize how mountainous it is. They don't realize how mountainous Afghanistan is it's like literally wave upon wave upon wave about ranges. So the terrain makes it difficult in terms of pursuit E.B. in terms of hiding. That's why guerrilla war has always been so successful in Afghanistan. It's over you know long periods of time. So that is a plan it certainly has been a concern because of the attacks on coalition soldiers in the border region by people who didn't flee back into Pakistan. So and then you know the because of agreements with Pakistan you know the hot pursuit stopped at the border and I think there's they've decided and look the I believe anyway would have to be the Pakistanis would have to be going along with the military. That they will be able to follow them back across the border and have a fourth

mobilized that will patrol that border and stop people before they launch the attack. You know as they're planting these booby traps and might not. So that certainly is the plan. And you know there's a lot of it going on. And. Yet another article actually says they're expecting that the plans involve thousands of troops. I suppose it depends if you've got thousands to to combat you know quite honestly you've got a hundred and thirty five thousand in Iraq. There are currently eight thousand U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan. Eleven thousand coalition soldiers in you know not a lot of countries have been coming forward with more troops. So you think it's kind of unlikely that there would be a large incursion would be your. Your gut feeling. Well I don't. Incursion if you had thought you think you are in fact. Well you know I think if we go into hot pursuit you know but you only have so many soldiers you have a limited 11000 coalition and finish spread across a huge border. I don't even have thousands crossing in you know if they're going in hot pursuit. What size of a 4th they'll have to doing the

patrols. You know maybe it'll be you know part of the 8000 or 11000 people you know patrolling it but you know I don't think you know I have like you know but this was just an article I think it says you have published Wednesday 28 in Reuters from the Chicago Tribune and you have really no I mean to me that that's a concern that they are going to go ahead with the hot pursuit and they will have forces. OK thank you. I probably can but the numbers I'm sorry I don't have a handle on that. Well you know the questions comments are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2. 2 2 9 4 5 2 would go on and perhaps talk a little bit more about it AF Stan and some of the challenges facing the country in the future I was going back to was struck by some comments now this is a couple of months ago but it was in the fall when the president Hamid Karzai was here he was in the States he was also in Canada and he made some very strong statements about al Qaeda and

its presence in Afghanistan and and flatly said out. And I'm not sure actually if he was talking with you with this time but it was somebody with the AP and he said it was here that I thought I thought that it was he said flat out. There is no al Qaeda network anymore in Afghanistan now. And I don't think he was denying the fact that there are still al Qaeda in Afghanistan but I was saying that perhaps they were disorganized to the point where you could actually make a statement like the network didn't exist. I think the United States reacted to what Mr. Karzai said and said no that's not true. What exactly what can one say now about the presence of al Qaeda and. In Afghanistan. Yeah I think that's very good. It's difficult to definitively say yes or no on that question whether that network is is operational. Certainly I think it's fair to say that it's not operational at the level it was pre September 11th

in 2001. But to say that it it no longer exists I think it's just evolved. Certainly some of the scenes senior people like you know she he babbles Baden Khalid Shaykh have been captured. Thank you and have Osama's there Ayman al-Zawahri there and so people are quickly replaced. That being said the fact that these people are in U.S. custody they're also giving over a great deal of intelligence too. And the U.S. that he denounced before and I'm sure these people are where you know it's it's it's changed I'm sure that the network has changed considerably. I think it's much more spread out I think. Iraq had given al-Qaida and company people a better operational place in terms of you know it's like easier for them to move around in the Middle

East than it is in Afghanistan they speak the language they speak Arabic. You know they are Arabs. They blend in in Afghanistan and they don't generally speak the language. It's very mountainous and you know communication is they certainly some of it not and I don't think you get that from say more from what people say you know that it's like a relay network that you know you give a message to so-and-so who give to Mr. So-and-So and it's taken two and then down the line somebody might use the satellite phone so that it's not traceable to where he is perhaps. So I think that the network that it was pretty general I'm certainly not there anymore. That it had been completely dismantled I think is probably not true I think it probably evolved and probably it's not it's as effective at that as it was for sure. But that being said I think that Iraq has allowed them to to certainly open up a whole different and maybe even more sophisticated because you can if you know

how to recruit you've got you know a lot of targets in terms of U.S. soldiers in Iraq. Pretty easy movement you've got you know a communication system. That you you don't have in Afghanistan. So I think it's probably completely different. Phenomena now in some ways you know. But it's a different network than it was pre September 11. So the short answer is No I don't think it's gone completely is it to say no I don't think it is either and probably not as effective. We continue I'm sure a lot of people continue to be preoccupied with. The person of Osama bin Laden. Do you believe it is generally believed that he he is one is still alive and two is in this this border region between Pakistan Afghanistan. I'm pretty sure it's alive and yet nobody seems to think it Afghan and there are far more reliable than anyone else in for in terms of whether you know we're get through and I'm sure he's alive I

don't even ever I'm sure he was never on dialysis I mean you know and even before September 11th you know there were about that he had a liver perhaps have attended the day out of this thing started to go on a life of its own you know. But you don't go on dialysis and then go off of it and then you get a kidney transplant. So you know he didn't have a transplant. So I think that with sort of a bogus kind of thing. And from all accounts I'm sure he's alive if he in fact and I doubt it. Thirty six foot seven he's an Arab. Pakistan if you're in the places that the senior al-Qaida people have been caught they've all been caught in Pakistan because word gets out you know it's very difficult you know I mean it's all like awesome air there and and then somebody can get word to somebody else to somebody else and then it can you know you can go and launch an operation. You're up in the mountains in Afghanistan and you have to be a member of Salman bin Laden was there during the whole Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that I walked through those mountains

from the Pakistan border to Kabul which is only you know 200 some kilometers. There would be no impact as you have to cross. It is a maze of tunnels you can hide. I remember being in one of the mountains and the Russians were bombing. They came in so no you could see the pilot's face. He still couldn't see you. So I mean it's not as easy as people think you know I mean and he knows this area crooner in northeastern Afghanistan where there are operations there are high mountains covered with trees that make it even more difficult to find him. 11000 men and women looking for him in a large country. Filled with mountain ranges just literally as they said like wait so if you don't need to pass to find a man like you to hide you know it will be even more vulnerable if he comes out and sort of live in the earth then which everybody says because you know eventually somebody is going to see and then they're going to say well I mean you know I could get married and I will tell somebody else who then gets were too eager to get in touch

with with the U.S. there in Afghanistan if you feel some up in the mountains by the time you get down to the mountain where are you going to find somebody to tell them that Osama's there. You have to get to the U.S. embassy in Kabul at the fortress by the time he has long since moved. It's much easier for him to protect himself and be safe in the mountains of Afghanistan and then to come down and sit out in the tribal area of Pakistan where the chance of being caught are much greater so I think he's in the mountains. That's But I guess you know if I knew I'd be 25 million dollars richer. Well I don't really know. Our guest in this part of focus 580 is Kathy Gannon. She's career journalist with The Associated Press she's worked 14 years in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Reading on that region as you might detect from her accent she is a Canadian and is now at the moment spending some time she's on leave with the Council on Foreign Relations in New York. She has as I said spent a lot of time

reporting on this region she was the only Western journalist in Kabul when the Taliban fell in 2000 and one she was in Pakistan and Afghanistan during the Russian invasion. And she's been good enough to give us some for time and and take questions. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 is the Champaign-Urbana number we do also have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Next we will go to Champagne County and a caller on line 1. Well hi good morning. As usual I have too many topics but I wanted to ask about going back to the time when the Islamic bomb but maybe I should ask. And. Well you know it's a nuclear bomb I think they call them nuclear bombs you know but maybe I'm wrong. The discourse of the time they call that the Islam I think it can you clear it. I don't understand a thing. If the nuclear bomb that's my understanding I had a look at it not looking like little

brother that I was I was said to be crippled but it's pretty it's pretty serious. Well I have a critique of the use of the word too but I was offering it because it does capture the time the OP can and that's what was talked about again weeks you're going to have I want to ask about Zalman Khalilzad Were you there when he was made Embassador he's very peculiar figure because he showed up in Iraq as a political fixer and he was the Unocal representative to Afghanistan negotiating a pipeline before the Tran corporation actually went on he was with Unocal two he was on behalf of the OK and sorry and the question you know I was I would just like for you to explain me now. And B B you know what it is you also studied at the University of Chicago like ah. But I would be I mean where does he fit into this whole thing he seems to be the go to guy for the for the US behind the scenes as opposed to a con. I just like to know.

And yes I think I think you're very accurate in saying that that that he is the go between. He brand name figures that special envoy to Afghanistan and and he still remains a special envoy to Afghanistan as well as the U.S. ambassador which in itself is. It means that he reports to two different pockets one being at the Pentagon or her and not the White House and the other being the State Department. Often the two are not on the same page. So there's that. As you said it all for this special envoy to Iraq I do believe that he does you know chill maybe I'm bad. I'm not sure what your question is it. You know I mean I mean I have not should and you know what your question is about how to that. Well I you know I just like it should be. The fact that I would like to know for sure I mean he's widely cited as being involved in the negotiations between

Unocal and that he took money from them and perhaps it was just as a consultant while he was working for you know you're on air. I don't know you know and I guess I just have a problem that anything can be said and then everybody is left having to try and find out whether right or wrong. I honestly don't know. My family and I don't that is the fellow route but right. But but yeah I understand. I honestly don't know quite honestly and I you know I do know that that he is the special on fine. I do know that he's gone to the U.S. ambassador I know he reports to different but you know it is I don't have answers and I and I don't want to get into a discussion I think that's wrong. You know 200 an hour given the context of the cronyism that's going on in the whole apparatus of the Bush administration I just think it's an important point to look into so I think it's an important point to look into that you don't make accusation publicly without having you know the information. I mean I don't know what I mean so I thing years and so I have to

just sort of step back and say I mean I'm not familiar with that if you have any other insights into how my have you worked with him her and I certainly interviewed him I knew him quite some time ago I mean I didn't know him but I knew him in the early 90s as well when he was at the RAND Corporation. I have interviewed him on several occasions. He even during the first light year ago he was there again I was just in Afghanistan in December and early January and I certainly interviewed him Nanon and talked to him several times at the White Jirga So yeah I I know he's quite polished just damn well. The idea of the Pakistani bomb being funded by mainly Saudi Arabia or the Newsnight which has not been and gated by Hutton apparently. There is actually Saudi money going into financing the Iraqi

atomic an atomic bomb on a project before they change their horses and went to Pakistan instead. It's all stuff. I'm really mad up because we were basically. We can even have that at the time. As you say we were waking up but yeah I mean you know I think you had short term interests and so will you use which was available and then tossed aside and and left Pakistan and Pakistani to deal with it in the region to deal with it until it became problematic again. And when it all funded by Saudi money I'm not sure that in many it is deeply involved in a number of things not just in Pakistan but but elsewhere and so and I didn't finance the nuclear programs only I'm not sure I think it's a little more complicated but you know I mean I certainly thought he many of us involved a I think you know question no I don't think I said slowly so you know what about a musher option the fact that he would be a

tough nation attempts that were so close. How much problems are inside of the eye of Saudi as far so I mean I haven't shaken out but I don't find a gun as he did some time ago I was a young man he had made some changes. Fact any intelligences is that on the military totally in control of it and I think it's very pocus that it is running separately I think the attempts against Musharraf came ahead of his meeting with padre I think and I certainly don't have any definitive information on it but it seems to me that it was very much Rinku confession that he was making easy in India in Kashmir he declared a unilateral cease fire and he. Oh so. He said that Pakistan was no longer married to the 1948 UN resolution calling for a plebiscite in Kashmir both sides of Kashmir to determine whether a united

Kashmir joining I to Pakistan or join with India. And I think that really infuriated some of the militants and I think the it d to attack the coming so close on one another may have been intended to be for the meeting with bad guy. In that many has occurred in that they moved to another faith. I I don't know that the attacks were symbolic of anything any deep divisions and I thought that he you know as a result of him making cleanup changes whatever. Thats my reading on it you know but that doesn't make it true or accurate but that's my reading of any attack. Certainly a complex organization and the fact that he had to shake people out of it earlier implies that there was some diversity of opinions etc. so as opposed to saying that it was an independent actor from the military there are a lot of different factions all through it that we control the intelligence

definitely factions and find the ISI which they need to take control from. I mean you know I mean this is this is good. But why do you have to throw so many people out there. I think there's a lot of political reason I think that a lot of pressure from you know it's well it's you know and I think that certainly you know changes have been made. Avid deep in the they are I'm not particularly sure how much because Benteke So I mean I'm not completely but and I think and Musharraf said himself quite openly and clearly that he's in control of the ISI. I want to jump in here and we only have 15 minutes left to have some of the callers help the caller forgive me for want to go on and I think probably I should introduce Again our guest for anyone who might have to Dan. We're talking with Kathy Gannon as she has for 14 years been covering Pakistan and Afghanistan for the Associated Press she is the current AP bureau chief for

Pakistan and Afghanistan at the moment she is on leave with the Council on Foreign Relations in New York as Edward R. Murrow Press Fellow But certainly she continues to keep up with going over with what's going on in the region. Questions are welcome we'll try to get as many as we can 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 go champagne for another color here line number two. Hello. I want to remark holy ignorance and the American public about what's going on in Afghanistan and Pakistan. American invasion or even before it may be in part responsible or be a result of the remarkable ignorance of this person who seems to have been in charge of the AP forces there for a long time are the important points of interest rates the story in The Chicago Tribune report yesterday about a spring offensive in Pakistan involving thousands of troops including some already in Pakistan and even more the last caller's comments about you know

the name you're getting to be unfamiliar with and yet tell us that. And to Unocal corporation involved with the Clinton National Security Council and then as this representative sort of jointly from the government and the oil companies as a special boy too. That's kind of the end of 2001. Now we don't know much about this country are all worth well informed on the point Richard. All this risk it was described to me and kind of the one that was apparently described by me and so I don't know I think your guess should be a little bad for ignorance on these two points. Well I don't think you need to get quite so personal but really no problem at all. Absolutely no problem no I'm not a bastion and you know I think one thing is I think everybody is entitled to their opinion I think I answered the thing many

question about the spring offensive a bit but that's really you know that that sort of attack that that's absolutely fine I think people are more than entitled to their opinion and and I certainly understand that and it's always much easier to just agree with everybody and attacked with it but I certainly they're entitled to their opinion that I don't get. What do you mean off going down. Thank you very much I really do appreciate your opinion I think I think it's wrong. You know we don't want any anyway. I you know I personally for me anyway I find it unsettling to have you know I mean if you would like to have a discussion here I'm happy to have a discussion but you know I'm not going to go into attacking counterattack I find I just it just it somewhat offensive but I thank you very much I appreciate your opinion or corporate about the man

at the center of America and Afghanistan and Pakistan. All our proposal about what the U.S. is clearly planning for the spring. Both of you doubting apparently Lance did it bring. I discussed the. You know a dead Border Patrol discussed you know honestly I am happy to have your opinion. You have made it clear which it think and do I want to go on an attack of the Army how do you know if you would like to please do that is fine if that if that is your own opinion or our view of what you're with you that's fine. Really honestly that's fine. So I guess what I'm saying is if you'd like to have a discussion I'm happy to later do I want to go into an attacking counterattack in a talk show. You know I'm sorry I just don't do that. But because American public doesn't like

what they know. You know what I mean you know I think really I personally would not take responsibility for the American public not knowing whose only handles ideas. You're coming at it from an attack point of view. I don't know what your agenda is I don't know why you're thinking you know what I'm saying is that if the American public is thinking about film a homicide I don't think that's going to my fault and whatever agenda or where you're coming from that's your business. It is a talk show. Really honestly for me I attack and counterattack. And you know if you have any other question that's great I'm happy to if you want to just attack me. You could do it later or seem to matter. I'm happy to have her. I thank you so much. I think I'm going to go on. I think that probably will make the caller unhappy but I don't see any point in going on. Let's go on to another caller here we have someone

in Charleston. Number four. Hello yes I will go into a long discourse but perhaps your guest can explain some off the oppression stop Westerners and Afghanistan and other parts of the Mideast. Recently I discovered that the fact that they're who I think it is. One point seven trillion cubic yards of natural gas underneath Afghanistan and that in my opinion I think that's part of the quotient that drives westerners too. Not to that part of the world and I don't remiss large Do I not understand that well. Afghanistan does have a large gas reserves. There's a huge oil every third winter men than it has been subject of which is which period in time but Unocal and a U.S. company as

well as a breeder as a separate company that have been were negotiating for a pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan and Turkmenistan has a huge oil reserves. There is a large gas reserve in northern Afghanistan. Is that motivating the West Westerners involvement in Afghanistan and in fact the involvement in Afghanistan is actually minimal compared to the Middle East. I mean again I say to the 11000 coalition soldiers a thousand of whom are US in Afghanistan. Three hundred thirty five thousand in Iraq I'm going to end it. Motivating man in Iraq but if if you're going to talk about oil the oil is the sole motivator or whatever. But if you're going to talk about oil and natural resources I don't think Afghanistan has that level and can bring that kind of return that it

would it would bring so many people. But that being said there are far fewer in Afghanistan like you said it's only 8000 U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan and it's a hundred 35000 in Iraq so I don't think it's down to resources that have been the motivator in Afghanistan at least you know being from Afghanistan like let's go again to Swanage together we have. Six or seven months left someone to call real quick we can get in another call or 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5. You have believe had the opportunity to to see some of that or at least you were in Kabul at the time of the Loya Jirga that discussed ratified the Constitution that then President Karzai signed what is the significance of that and perhaps you can talk a little bit about where things stand right now. The Constitution.

Some things of the Constitution guarantees toothy per province for women. So that 64 seats guaranteed in the Assembly for women. The Loya Jirga was interesting in so much of that one point there was a real voice being given to the people you know they they defined I hate them in the Lords and they took a stand on their own which was really interesting to see and I think its a very positive indication for Afghanistan. That being said there are very few institutions in Afghanistan that are running running Well I think that there are dangers that concession or trade offs will be made to some of the hardliners in Afghanistan like. Fayyad who's who's one of the former mujahedeen was considered a warlord who has been a lot of negotiation going on with possibly to give people control of the judiciary

which already had some control which would be very detrimental in terms of being able to. Implement. Constitution in a in a in a fair and even way. So I think that that could be problematic. You know if a piece of paper right now how it actually become a piece of paper to action on the ground and that that remains to be seen. We try to get one more caller here we have so many on cell phone line one. Hello. Oh yes. Yes I wonder if you could ask your guest to comment briefly on the status of women in Afghanistan. We understand how much they suffered under the Taliban. I was wondering how the current regime is addressing some of the issues.

I'll take the answer off the air. All right thank you sure. Sure I think. And some changes again the constitutional guarantee of representation. 64 seats in the parliament. School thin girls have reopened. Women are working again. And I thin Kabul and in other areas mostly in Kabul outside in the rural areas he said deeply conservative society. Bieber didn't come with the Taliban restrictions on women. Unfortunately didn't come with the Taliban. And so overnight changes won't happen. And but there's certainly from President Karzai a real commitment to try and change things. But it will be slow. I mean the Taliban rules and that that affected women. It was very much tribal and it still imposed in villages very much so in parts of Kabul too and what they did is they took village law and they pulled the country wide. Including

in cities where there had been you know more educated people and it different like that. So I think it's getting better. Absolutely. The Countrywide. Absolutely not. Will it happen overnight. Absolutely not it's very slow but certainly there is commitment and and you know I'm guaranteed in the Constitution. So progress is being made. We will have to stop there because we hear at the end of the time we want to thank our guests very much Kathy Gannon. She is the current AP bureau chief for Pakistan Afghanistan and she at the moment is on leave with the Council on Foreign Relations in New York is Edward R. Murrow Press Fellow I'm just going thank you very much for talking with us. Thank you very much.