Focus 580; The Kashmir Conflict

Good morning and welcome to focus 580 our morning talk program my name is David Inge and glad to have you with us this morning. In this first part of the program we will take up a subject that we certainly have discussed before on this program and that is the long sort of conflict between India and Pakistan over Kashmir. India and Pakistan have been arguing about Kashmir for more than 50 years now India contends that Kashmir freely became part of India in one thousand forty seven. Many people however in Pakistan believe that Kashmir should be part of their country because the majority of Kashmiris are Muslim. Further complicating the situation is a violent separatist movement in Kashmir that has been fighting against Indian rule since 1980 9 the government of India claims that Pakistan has supported these militants. That is a charge that Pakistan has denied. The big concern is here that Pakistan and India already have fought two wars over Kashmir the last one in one thousand sixty five. And people are worried is that should a new war start that the two

countries might be tempted to use nuclear weapons. There has however been some good news on the issue recently as India announced a series of proposals designed to improve relations with Pakistan even more surprising was the offer by the Indian government to hold talks with Kashmiri separatists. Will try to talk a little bit about all of these things in this part of focus. 580 with our guest. He is from Pakistan. He is currently spending some time as a visiting scholar here at the University of Illinois doing research and in the program in arms control disarmament and International Security. He is particularly interested in water and in fact has been working on a paper water war in peace linkages and scenarios a case of India-Pakistan relations and we'll talk about that and some other things as well as we talk of course questions comments are welcome. The number here in Champagne Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 we also have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800

to 2 2 1 9 4 5 5. At any point here if you have questions you can give us a call. Well thank you very much for talking with us. You're welcome sir. Before we were going I I was going to end and neglected to ask you to help me with the pronunciation of the name of your university in Islamabad I didn't want to mispronounce so perhaps you'd better. I'd like to hear it from you. You know about where he has a lecture in defense and Strategic Studies also. He studied in Sweden has a degree from. University where he studied conflict and peace studies and also in Cairo University has degrees in international relations and defense and Strategic Studies. For people who are not familiar with Kashmir perhaps at the beginning we ought to talk a little bit about this issue and I will say right up front that I understand a lot of people well will know that. The view from India from Pakistan is different. Yeah

and that in that within Kashmir probably not all people in Kashmir have the same sort of idea either about. The status would they stay with India. Would they imagine becoming part of Pakistan would they want to be independent. So depending upon who one asks you're going to get a very different portrait of all this but to the extent that we can maybe we can talk a little bit about what about the nature of this this dispute. And as far as the Indians are concerned it seems fairly straightforward there. They say that Kashmir is part of India. First up that's that. And they're there. It's a matter for them of national integrity and the idea of. Kashmir either becoming independent or becoming part of Pakistan. This simply seems to be beyond discussion. Yeah that is the problem we are facing from the very beginning. Between your posts on relations so missing that claim on the basis that

the money he has signed that accession instrument of accession in 48 to 47 and then definitely it is the legal part of India. But if that has been accepted lets you know if you accept that. But even then before that they have produced this been in the United Nations and they could gaze to the United Nations and United Nation has not accepted that instrument of expression and neither there was any instruments of possession because there's a lot of difference on that. And latest research have a different views that are correct. So considering the Pakistan standpoint that is related to the status of forget me as a princely state so there was almost five sixty two princely states which were ignored directly ruled by Britishers at the time of partition and that those states were given choice either to join India Pakistan. So specially good for the states. There was a problem with that. Others did

settle when he did with India. And one was from Freshmeat the DI had that of a can and so had the bread and meat Maharajah and the other ruler of had that about they wanted independence did this which was not acceptable to the British is their time and they have said that the Pakistan India. So India mobilizes forces at the time of partition and captured that it had a bad state and you know there was also captured the CMB he the rather junior guard was exceeded to Pakistan and that nine bucks then taking that issue to the United Nations. But let Ron Buxton ever drawn that. But the media issue itself I'm in because I wanted independent status and he offered a standstill agreement with India and Pakistan both. That was to take time and decide he decided he wanted to be.

But meanwhile have been because the people of Kashmir they wanted with Pakistan there was a report and gets me against Madhya so Maharajah over that pople because from the Kashmiri people there was a revolt from Didn't he US had from India. So in this way India imposed condition of accession to really at that time to India so that was the going to legit is that instrument accession existing or not still controversial. But at that time India was that the TSA and their instrument of accession and on that basis India mobilizes forces and captured me. So the similar one that on the other side because the people from other areas of Kashmir get good Balderstone and that they have been helping their own brothers there and they came for their rescue. So the wall between those rebels cordon cored rebels and Indian forces that continued for months

and I think in 1948 it in May after the cutoff of water issue itself between India and Pakistan Pakistan mobilizes forces. And just to strengthen the positions of those rebels the traders who have been in contending Indian troops in Kashmir they're dying. So in this way both India and Pakistan as captured parts of Kashmir and then under you and there was a ceasefire which is existing today. So. As far as people in Pakistan are concerned is it is it correct to say that most people there believe that since Pakistan is is a Muslim nation most people are Muslim and that most people in Kashmir are Muslim that Kashmir should it would make sense for Kashmir to be part of. Pakistan or at least at least the part of Kashmir that is Muslim to be part of Pakistan.

Yeah because the principle of partition and at that time whatever option has been given to all the princely states that was the contiguous majority area in terms of Muslim and Hindus. So that was a totally Muslim majority of the entrance of the state itself and that was captured. We believe there's a Buckstone believe definitely this is captured by India at that time because at that time even independent Kashmir was acceptable to Pakistan because when a Maharaja has given that option of a conditional standstill agreement that he wanted to be independent. The response of theirs and was that just fine if he wants to welcome. But let alone the issue and everything has been complicated because it's also the case though that. And do correct me if I'm wrong about this but the the governments of India and Pakistan and neither government favors an independent Kashmir one way or the other they think that that Kashmir should be should be part of one of the other nations.

Yeah this is this is a kill a lot of developments after that happened because of the fuss about the ceasefire line itself and the United Nations and then there was the good war in 65 between India and Pakistan and after that war there was a touchtone declaration. And under the declaration definitely decided that India and Pakistan would not interfere in that into new affairs and all the issues would be settled by discussions by any third party mediation but there was no question of no reference to third party mediation at that time but that the Russian was very much third party mediation by Soviet Russia at that time. So based on that they are focusing on the same thing on word that the main issue between India and Pakistan of not accepting this line of control has international border because many thing happens. On the Pakistani side some northern areas some part of Kashmir that has been in 1951 I think yes has been given directly under the federal

control and similarly on the other side of India the dark area is very much a very much autonomy status. And India and Pakistan both. Rather the opposite that third party to it. So almost 20 percent of the original meter tea is with China. And China captured that area some in 55 and 60 to water between India and India and China. So 20 percent is China. Forty five percent of the Kashmir region authority is with India and 35 percent is very focused. And part of that 35 percent is a very must not NATO who declared in this is directly controlled by the Federation itself. But no they have a right to franchise and everything and they are very much part and parcel. They never wanted to be part of Kashmir. It said so in this way. If we don't vote in this sense that they're not going to decide to vote on

Monday. So that is the problem because of three parties that are very much in modern into it and it is becoming very much a territorial issue No. Well that's and I suppose that there are some people who would say that at this point the thing that would make sense would be to acknowledge the reality on the ground and simply say well all right that part that's controlled by India will be in the end the part that's controlled by Pakistan will be Pakistan go to Pakistan of the part that's controlled by the Chinese will go to China and now then some people say Well you're you're leaving out an important opinion here and that's the opinion of the people of Kashmir and that they will say a part of the point of the deal here was that at some point there was supposed to be a national vote. People of Kashmir were supposed to be able to say what they wanted. And that's never happened. It's impossible to say. Does anybody know what the people of Kashmir want and what with the result of a vote like that would be if it ever

happened. Yeah definitely that is again a difference of opinion among the guest midis itself and that has been projected by international media and various organizations like that and generally even if you accept that 70 percent of the cash media itself never wanted to be with India at this moment. And the region I believe that people sort of the case bt they wanted focused on maybe the good people that they wanted their independence. So this is the I think a break up of will be nian generally which is being accepted nowadays. So that as there are many parties that that meant a difference of opinion or led to that and some asking for that independence of Kashmir and some of the Indian bugs. It's not property. Recently there has been an attempt by the government of India to try to improve relations with

Pakistan to to engage in in more Talk to make it easier for people to travel back and forth. And also there has been this attempt to to try to. Some movement on the Kashmir issue is sort of on the same basis talking about making it easier for people to move back and forth between them. The part that's controlled by Pakistan in the part that's controlled by India. And then there was just fairly recently what to me seems to be a sort of surprising announcement from the government of India saying that they would be willing to sit down and talk with the Kashmiri separatists or at least some of them from the Kashmiri side the response some people said some sort of the most most militant people said no we're not going to talk with India at all. Some more moderate people said well yes we would be willing to do that. What do you make of what the Indian government is doing and do you think that that will will indeed lead to improved

relations. Between India and Pakistan. And then. And perhaps a lessening of tension around this particular issue. Kashmir is very much welcome development from India. I would say that should happen. We wish for that. But actually if we look to the history and there have been many talks between India and Pakistan in Kashmir and many time this issue has been very much by liturgy and has been discussed at various levels. But no that is international pressure on India and Pakistan both to discuss gets beat by a lot clearly and generally there is a believe in Pakistan even mall that this is just buying of time itself just to just to live pressures from international community. But. I'm very much optimistic on that. If there is talk between India and

Pakistan and focal in Kashmir I think Ashmead is very much a solid problem as not as a complicated problem but India most often is focusing that we will engage the guest PDP pull itself into the dialogue not with Pakistan. This is something which is not acceptable to Pakistan and that is very much an international issue on the United Nations agenda an internationally accepted issue between India and Pakistan. Yes definitely the opinion of the people is very much that that should be respected by both India and Pakistan. But I think yes if India even engage in a cash media prize the leadership of Kashmir in this dialogue and there should be a third brought it to the tripartite dialogue itself between all that and we come to any solution. I think Stumper will come that box and should welcome that. Given though again that there the reality and the ground and the fact

that the governments of in Pakistan have both said they don't favor an independent Kashmir. It makes it hard to imagine any other solution. Perhaps other than. People simply saying well the the borders as they exist in a line of control. It's a de facto border. Now. That maybe everyone will just have to say well that's going to be the border. But again I guess the main party here that would stand up and object would be those people in Kashmir who would be interested in it in independence and not being part of either country. But it sort of makes it difficult to imagine any any other solution. So the first thing is that under United Nation there was no tired option. So Pakistan is saying that there is no third option because another United Nations resolution at existing. So all that said let's get on. But yes if he wanted an independent Kashmir.

And that is a very bunch of problems attached by India where there's very much secular open court so current secular outlook that if India gave independence to Kashmir then there'd be a spillover effect in other parts of India because there are many almost 16. This type of movements are going on within India. So I think that that is a lamb excuse itself because guess speed itself being an independent. Yes have some linkages for that but not all together is the total impact because that is very much an indigenous one. And Kashmir is not an internal issue. So on the other side of the border recipe just on Pakistan accept independent Kashmir. I think it was acceptable at the time a partition but later on there as other factors came in to a no if let's say Pakistan except independent Kashmir which India is not going to accept altogether. So this is triple A pressure on

Pakistan at this moment that Pakistan should accept independence just need and India will accept it. I don't think not going to accept as independent Kashmir the other factors itself are very much a water issue. Because the guest meal the importance of the guest meat that icky is very much an strategic one and called it it is a high just a dict oddity. So this thought it actually it will look into the geography of the Kashmir the high mountains of how would I use pigs would be in color the roof of the earth melting of that snow itself makes hundreds of small streams and rivers and it makes a river. Infrastructure is being car industry were system and that system consists of six big it was all our tribe are treated in the sewer. So all other words because of this is very much a factual one I think I should give names of those it was also so the frost on the vest

inside is Indus and then his jail M which originated from Delhi from Syria and then is Janab again from Delhi. Then other is Nabil again on the border of the gashly rally and then his bass were detected from Indian Punjab that are three and then his B are subtle which probably didn't actually hit. All that and into pugs than 30 and it is very much a lifeline for bucks so I might he said says that actually the question of the getting of Kashmir in Fort Hood rather the whole lot of Kashmir between India and Pakistan in 48. That from Indian side was kept putting off had works of these resources so that India can browbeat Pakistan at any moment. And India had those cards now. And the first issue between India and Pakistan was water. But that water issue was in

Punjab India. So in 1947 the boundary line between Punjab with a partition and Punjab the root causes of gush beads and water issue are very much there though. What I did was first had books of the dying and 47. Motherboard and photos book. Which was very much Muslim majority states Muslim majority district was to enjoy whatever you can call it. That but given to India and the other two had books where my dolla and monkey so monkey lays on Jay Leno know we are calling orders monkey led them. And what I like is hardly run my head inside of the Kashmir border. So if we look good to the whole step the GI of Indian at that time in 40 it kept getting of that dirty dead tree that was frankly already entered to capturing of these had rocks and rivers. India itself is

claiming an all and most of the time they have claiming that we ourselves have stalled for the movement in Kashmir Beyond was a threat because the people of them for about was not very much favorable to India at that time. So we stop action. The actual situation is not that India try to capture all the riches of Jhelum. And chin up at that time and that is the valley of Judy. So that has been condemned by the Raiders at Ebbers whatever his team has given them a name but the media people who have been resisting are dying. And they contend Indian forces. On that point which is an overseas flight line. So this if at that time India would have kept these areas there would have been don't Pakistan. I would again said there would have been no Pakistan because the whole economy of Pakistan which is a gradient was

based on the whole river infrastructure in Punjab and immediately India's top. From duty was to stop water and that was the idea at that time being integrated. And if you look at it with that Sana'a do you. I'll post five million people who migrated. Because if this in the dishes. By Titian line in Punjab from the other side often they were being settler dine in for it and immediately at the ready. But sure in time I was here which was the first of April itself was a required water for the Crow which was here to be harvested and the last water was required so that water was top and the whole crew was also destroyed at that time. So immediately there was a feminine condition in Punjab rather all of Pakistan at that time. So the whole issue.

Which has set a psychological I think the relationship between India and Pakistan the sense because the threat from India was first of all what are we Pakistan has never taught at that time of partition when that by Titian was accepted by God as them. And his reaction was that I will accept that in Pakistan but not water at the courtesy of Hindus. And that was the reason I think the reaction to that. Who had drugs originally was given to India. And little in 48 they captured the territory which was very much a catchment area of the other rivers. If that had been captured 40 years the other two troopers with Buxton secured I think out of the river Jaylen itself. There were no Pakistan because you can resort to Cheder and that is a potential weapon in the hand of India even know. Dicky is

there. We'll discuss in detail if and question on sensation but hold that treaty is recognized and no one is that sustainable. This is a very much a question. So I did lead to the whole issue of the Kashmir is that a tree which is just a dictator to be rich in water resources that is the biggest importer of the gas me which is a lifeline for Pakistan. But India is only focusing. And projecting itself on the basis of their two nation 30 and Islam itself that they are the people who are very much emotionally attached with that and on the basis of goodish untended they wanted to have Kashmir India. That was a good act but at the time after that I think it is very much that it will get you should know the wishes of the people not inspectable. No doubt they had a bit of a gym partner but

that is important. Because deadbeat is a bitch to support resources and that is that but which India can use anytime any moment. Maybe I should reintroduce Again our guest here for people who tuned in last a little bit here we're speaking with Nasrullah Mears. He is from Pakistan. He's a lecturer in defense and Strategic Studies at the university in Islamabad and he's here visiting in the program in arms control disarmament and International Security here at the University of Illinois. And we're talking about India Pakistan the conflict over Kashmir questions are certainly welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 and toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5. I think the argument here you've laid out is very interesting and particularly as you say in the light of the fact that so often when people talk about what the conflict over Kashmir is about they say it really is any it's an emotional conflict it's about it's

about nationalism it is you know for the Indians about control the territorial integrity of India as they see it. For them it's also. It has something to do with the fact that it's Jammu and Kashmir the only majority Muslim states in India and it allows India to say that it's a truly Multi a diverse multi-ethnic multi-religious country. For the Pakistanis It seems that it's again it's sort of the same kind of issue it's they're saying Well Pakistan was created to be a Muslim state. That's what part of the partition was all about and here we have this area where most people are Muslim and well it just makes sense to us as us in Pakistan that this should be part of Pakistan. And that's the way that the conflict is in everything that I Fred. That's pretty much where what people talk about it being about it's about emotions it's about nationalism it's about identity. And the way that you've talked about it now there it

lays out a whole nother dimension. When you look at the fact that well Yesin been may indeed be about those things but control of water which was vital to both countries. That's a very important issue here in fact that may be where that may be what the bottom line is she was at the beginning. That's this is something for me at least as you know this is this many people maybe in India Pakistan may be aware of this. But that to me that this is a whole new way of looking at this conflict. Yeah that is really because of the speed issue has been projected to various dimensions really. There's an emotional issue this is an IT logical issue this is a just a political issue just a footballer issue because on face value yes people can say this is an emotional issue because both. But the state itself has begun emotional the adat public to it because because of their policies. But I don't think there is

any this is a motional issue between the state. If they wanted to solve it if there is a village to dissolve it. The second thing is that it is a logical issue. Yes on the face value each and every will say differently India and Pakistan have been partitioned on the basis of two nation theory and that is very much linked with that. And India has taken this issue to the United Nations. Therefore because that is a legal stand of Pakistan that there should be a plebiscite on it. And Kashmir should be settled in this way and that policy is protected No our days up the law and I think it is very much a legal and judicious fun but the principle stand on it but I think the stakes are very much in want of bugs. Pakistan has forgotten all of the issues. If we talk about you talking about the there were no other Muslim majority state in India. But there was you know guy Reza totally Muslim majority you. Had the bad was marginal but

being ruled by a Muslim leader at that time ruled at that time. So Buxton has forgotten that Pakistan has forgotten what they were to introduce a partition line itself and the people from other side migrated into Pakistan at that time. The huge migration I think in the history of mankind. If that has been the illogical issue and can be solved in the same day as had been solved the partition of Punjab why not the Muslims from Kashmir gun migrated to Pakistan and India if they're living there can migrate to India and solution got to be solved as it is has been stored in the partition opened up. I don't think this is an illogical issue is it has been made then a judge could issue and long as Pakistan is also attaching this was this much as an adult you can issue I think that is it was who should do it because the international community is not going to listen it and that is the problem. Up till now which Pakistan is facing I think the real stakes of that should be protected

internationally. And the confection be protected so what is the problem in Kashmir which is required. People are definitely important but there are Muslims living in India. If on the basis of ideology a person who can attack coming from Arabia. That she devil just fired the gun. Women had been raped and all that and he kept all their dirty I'm talking in the history at that time when Mom had been custom itself came into a that was something question of fidelity. But this is not a question of her identity. Muslims are living in India. Fine who wanted to live that God who had been condemned there by force. They've been not given just to migrate to HP-UX time at that time. And there was a Muslim majority states that I was in the major district still in India so Pakistan is not altogether blaming for that. So first I think Boston has forgotten all injustices record that even the partition of Big up in other states

all but Kashmir is very much a lifeline for Pakistan I don't think Pakistan can compromise on Kashmir and Pakistan will never compromise on Kashmir because of this thing which is the richness and water resources and that is a lifeline. It's not just for. What they would have been said in the form of this water Treaty I think the benefit to economic benefit from the book Dicky was when but on both sides India and Pakistan. There was almost a green revolution but nobody to said says that because untouchable they were you know what. And that should have been nice if there was six of us some six. Easton did not invest and he would not a been Jews in that treaty. He stands on the Indian side so all could Eastern debate which was an Indian site has been directed by India from west to east. Water was flowing from east to almost vest

site and similarly the other from bestand Rivers Pakistan has never entered those three divots to compensate that sharp fall into the other rivers. And in this way that infrastructure has been created under this in this water treaty and we got two dams are under in this water treaty one of them is to be located within Kashmir which is among them and Pakistan's whole economy is very much dependent on that. So this unnatural diversion of water has created ecological disgusted and Pakistan. And this cittie is not sustainable. And this other issue also littered with that the TV itself the medias have been also eliminated from Pakistan then Pakistan signed this treaty with India in 1960. Because under the Titi no developmental projects can be done in Indian occupied Kashmir by India India has been sustained from that.

And I think development is required because the media saying we have water this is our water and we can develop it. And that protects is also saying that the Pakistan is very much involved in that aren't on the Xbox then give us a chance to develop these resources become valid so I did the duty I think it's really have been all sorted from Pakistan and on the other side also from India that India has signed this treaty with Pakistan that I would water itself resources. We can't use that. So this is one dimension here. But on the other side if you look into Pakistan. There is a voter question. We are fishing from the very beginning till the signing of the treaty. So the two Davids which has been the Punjab revert back to the Punjab name is five rivers. But Job mean punch mean five rivers mean. OB OB mean give us mean five rivers a land of five rivers so open for those for the wealthy people to have been given to India which was very

well and everywhere. No that is a question of the sim between Punjab and Sindh I would Prudence's that Punjab is developing on the behest of sin the rivers in the sources which is the intensity of it which is going to all of Pakistan. And if you get this in India soon you must have heard about the call about issue another we got to develop the resources because of that because the Sindh province itself object to it and Pakistan is unable to really go forward. Other resources up to the north to develop them. This is the situation which is coming up and on the other side of India but India divided these three diverse that has been extended irrigation to word beyond Punjab itself. No there was a problem in Punjab and 85 also which was a Sikh movement. The sick woman also demanded this thing that this is all water. But had been given to other areas and extended toward further in the

just funny idea who this question is also there. So this problem has created a lot of things because there's a political connotation to economic or traditional social and defense infrastructure. Connotation also but I think at that time it was. Become acceptable to. Pakistan in that in the in the sense because it had a skitter dimension also. If you look into the military strategy when you divert this type of having that cannot infrastructure it itself put away the security of the entrance of the military into that river corridors so Pakistan was very much an indefensible at that time. If India had been kept good this Kashmir area in 40 ID then there had been no box them because the movement of the Kashmir but Indian troops from these corridors into the rivers were very much easy. But this field infrastructure itself has

provided a defensive security to Pakistan and so on and inside this border state after 65 and all borders have no what I would get to do that is so easily. And in 65 this is very much on the history that in 65 the law harder would have been get to buy India. If there had been no bid to be link again not in full swing so that not crossed by the union troops had that day and Buxton guard and civil law hut itself at that time because a direct attack wasn't allowed. So this these are the good additions economic political strategic and she get it. Yes and that is good. What now is the possibility. When you lay it out this way it sounds as if if one really wanted to try to deal with the tensions between India and Pakistan around

that area around Kashmir and also deal with the interests of. Not only the the two governments but people in the region who are interested in developing their resources then it would say Well what we really need to have is an enormous conference bring everybody the table and say we're going to talk about water. Well and I guess one could imagine such a thing happening maybe under the auspices of the United Nations but it seems like. It's a very this is very different would be a very difficult thing to organize to get everybody to come prepared to play because no doubt both India and Pakistan would have to actually be willing to give up some things. Can you imagine such a thing actually happening. Yeah actually the peace of the region is very much linked with water as well by research and studies because this infrastructure has been created and water had been diverted unnaturally. It

is creating a logical distrust which is shortly this infrastructure is unsustainable. One thing. Second it is unsustainable in the sense that this is very much white elephant in the form of economy and Pakistan. People say that the this problem is a developmental problem and this is the mismanagement of water by Pakistan. Therefore the staple problems are coming up salinity and water logging. Pakistan has launched almost five five year plans to control salinity and water logging but that hold has been failed and up till now whatever Pakistan had been doing extending it to get into new areas so that Pakistan has to its limits in the areas also. And. I didn't do my deserts. If this situation is going on it is totally unsustainable that it is totally uncontrollable. What ever resources you may have and this is the studies of international water management institute that even in the next 25 years

up to 2025 this scenario is coming up that Pakistan in all domes which they have almost three type of scenario they have projected. One is that business as usual if you go on Pakistanis in absolute Scott City. And if Pakistan developments economically from within of it on city sources even then Pakistanis cannot do that. One time that there isn't any external funding on that development. And third scenario is that even if Pakistan developed with the economic resources of the water resources whatever Pakistan has in the way even then there'd be absolute scattered. Just so this type of situation is very much in watching. So the solution as you have an effort what is actually this is this was very much deliberate on India and Pakistan I would say in 1960 that they kept issue separate from the water

issue. And water solution was very much a technical and engineering solution under the word bang studies and all that it is very much scientific and technical solution. It resolved the problem by the time being because water had been diverted and was cited there was a green that whoosh and no doubt Pakistan has benefited from that. India has benefited from that treaty. India was shearing hardly Tutti was before partition and Haile 10 percent of booty was were being used in Indian dirty India got three full fledged devoted their time. Under the treaty so almost you can multiplayer it how many times India garter that thing that a similar charge of whatever we try to compensate from other rivers in the Punjab India. So this bit definitely there was a benefit and development all that. But not this situation itself is good here thing that even if

the developer of the Kashmir if that should be given to India fight example ox then should accept line of control as an international border. The very next day there be water issues. The same on the same basis as that was in 40. It that what it would be has done was India's you would and indeed if it because there is rude awful that it told you so virginity absolute that it told you so but an anti on that principle. Each state can claim that and India will claim definitely they have no treaty or no treaty that would not stand because international law or legal framework can regulate water in this way but it didn't have this much of fright and whatever that little development led to that that is the law of use of non-aviation and water. And the Intamin that is that European has to contribute for the

development of Water Resources upstream but that benefit. If that were the situation then vid box than St.. So bucks does economy itself whatever it is getting all the divorces it's not a manageable No. Go. And haul buck stun gun country or just do what the cost of development in those areas which is not Pakistan. So let's say that that it t of Kashmir valley itself should be given to Pakistan. Even then the water issue would be coming up. Because again they're very you know for resources we have not provided that. So the price is it logical prices in the Punjab area that can be only managed if we manage these water resources in their original bat in their natural beds then we can solve the salinity and water logging problem. Our ecological problem. And very less water can solve this problem. To the heated words which we have given to India and a large

quantity of water is being diverted from best endeavors because there's a lot of almost 40 percent seepage and rather 50 percent seepage of water coming through the use of us which is just due to transportation water you can go for the pipelines because this is easy to get to the border of the huge water is in order small is a plague to the city itself. You can go for that but that type of food it meant it's not possible and very costly. So Pakistan has tried to make it as accurate as. Possible by making the beds of the get itself by the brick work so to stop the seepage of sand but even that doesn't or solve the problem. So this is situation the solution between that I think. If yes who of Kashmir should be given to Pakistan as we originally had has stand and Pakistan India has separate taken separate stand on that that even the Kashmir issue is totally separate from

water issue. If yes if that is the case because at that they begin HP-UX them by thinking that either case B would come to India or to Pakistan or to the plebiscite. At that time if it would have come to Pakistan qualifying there was no problem except itself because the whole rebellion captured India which is a whole catchment area of the water it was coming to Pakistan. If it had been given to it. Then there were the security under this treaty over the water supply to Pakistan which is still going on but there are many problems and Lot been issues between years on Pakistan on water issues which is not coming to surface. We can talk on it and the question answer session. So the peace in the region is not possible on the basis of what they would have done up to the NO and situation of continuous is simmering up I'm done does this settle this issue in that way. According to the wishes of the people

and jointly developed these water resources and time left is a joint development of what resources I don't think there can be peace between India and Pakistan because beyond valid there be another development which is required next because up till now those areas are very much inaccessible. But with the best of time that will be very much accessible by technology. So again there be the sea of water issues upstream and the other part of the valley. You know we've actually used our time and we're going to have to leave it there very interesting to hear your analysis of this and it's something that I'm sure we'll continue to talk about in the future and continue to discuss I imagine on other days with her cast but for the moment we'll have to say. Thanks very much. We appreciate you giving some of your time. Thank you very much for giving me time to take this issue.