Focus 580; The Myth of Laziness

In the first hour of the program today we'll be talking with Dr. Melvin. He's professor of pediatrics at University of North Carolina med school. He's also director of the university's Clinical Center for the Study of development and learning. And he has now become maybe one of the country's best known writers and speakers on the subject of learning and how it is that different children are different have different styles of learning different kind of challenges they face and how when we try to help them to learn both as teachers and parents we have to keep that in mind. He's written a book on that subject really making the point of the differences between children that book is titled A mind at a time. His most recent book is now out in paperback it's titled The myth of laziness. The children who don't perform well in school sometimes are accused of being lazy. And in this book he makes the argument that in fact almost no one is actually lazy. He says the real problem here is something that he calls output failure which can be traced to a number of factors they can be biological they can be neurological or psychological in these

things. He argues can be both a problem for children and adults So if you're interested in these things you can go out and take a look at his books there. They're both in paperback The published by Simon and Schuster. He's been with us before on the program and when we got the opportunity again because the response to his appearances here before had been so good people really liked what he had to say. We said yeah we'd be happy to have him back on the program again. In addition to his work as a teacher and writer. He is also the co-founder of all kinds of minds. That is a nonprofit institute that's devoted to the study of differences in learning. They have a website by the way. All kinds of mines dot orgy if you're interested in taking a look at that. And he is joining us this morning by telephone as we talk the questions and comments are certainly welcome here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also have a toll free line and that one's good anywhere you can hear us 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Dr. Levine

Hello Ed. Thanks for talking with us. It's a pleasure to certainly appreciate it. One of the things that I think now is becoming more and more commonly understood the idea is this idea that all children are different they learn differently they have different styles and different challenges and. And when it comes down to things that we as parents can do or that teachers can do. Your approach needs to be tailored to the child and I think now we're to the point we're almost where we've started to move away from using the term learning disability. Right. Because we think that it's it's a bad label that stigmatizes kids and it doesn't really describe very well what's going on. And I guess what I but I wonder what you think about that and whether in fact it was right that that is the right approach and maybe we should forget that term. Well I'm hoping we can stop labeling kids altogether. You know labels oversimplify a kid I mean feeling feelings from a

logical or abnormal. I think we're in a position where we can be much more specific with kids. So do your. We can say a smart kid. But you have trouble expressing yourself. Have so many good ideas you just can't get them out into words and the fact that it's hard for you to figure out how to say things has made it all so tough for you to write. And that's much more specific than saying MLB because then you can go on and say Now we can figure out how to make you talk better how to help you talk better and what you can do to build up your talking health. But you can become a better speaker and a better writer and a much more constructive thing than to just write him off with a label. I do wonder whether in in the in the pursuit of what's right for each child we have also made things a lot more difficult for teachers because we have teachers who maybe have something between 20 and 30 students that they're trying to teach. And if we say to them now remember every kid is different and your approach to

every child must be different that the teacher will say but I can't possibly do that. You know I don't think we're really saying you have to treat every child differently and you have to have a completely different educational plan for every kid in your question obviously would be impossible and absurd. What we're really saying is be aware. The differences and try to incorporate them in your teaching you're probably going to find out that that you the teaching actually becomes easier. Imagine a child who has trouble getting things out of his memory very quickly he has what we call retrieval memory problems and lives in constant fear of being called on in class. He's just terrified that he's going to get called on. There's a good chance that kid's going to develop behavior problems. And sort of come out fighting and never really will take a lot of the teacher's time. On the other hand if he knows that Georgie has a retrieval memory problems and she can go up to him and say George I'm not going to call on you in class because I know you have these memory problems but any time you think you know an answer why don't you volunteer. And if she also

could say George I'm going to call on you tomorrow to tell us about the cause of world war one can you be ready for that. Ordinarily when you're called on in class you have three seconds to respond. In this case we're giving him 23 hours. You've accommodated him that doesn't mean you have a whole separate lesson plan for that child. If you know a kid has trouble with sequencing can't remember things in the right order. These kids who have trouble with sequencing have a terrible time doing cursive writing. Because that's the most complex sequence of all just think about it when you're when you're writing in cursive. First I have to make an M and go up and go down and come across and go up to make an A and then come around and now under the bottom again. It's but it's a huge drain and what we call sequential memory memory for sequences. It really doesn't cost any money out of the school budget to tell that kids should print from now on instead of doing cursive. She see what I mean yeah. We're we're we're sort of meeting kids halfway we're not totally radically treating them all

differently but we're putting a lot of behavior problems were saved. Schools money to spend the kid may not have to go out for special education. And we're redeeming someone who might feel terrible about themselves while acknowledging that labeling can be really can be not good not good for children not good for their families. You also recommend that it's a good idea for children for parents if they think that their children are having particular kinds of difficulties to actually have an evaluation to have some professional to talk with a child and kind of see if you can figure out what's going on. How do you approach that kind of thing so that that can be a positive experience and can be useful for both for education. Did she come away from an evaluation feeling terrific about himself saying you know I used to think I'm retarded. Now I know I am having some problems with my memory or trouble finding words or I have trouble getting my fingers to move right. When I write

and I used to think I was completely done so which would really be sort of liberating and rejuvenating for a kid. Understand him so for the first time and realize it's not as bad as it thought it was. But I think parents before going for an evaluation have to come up with some good questions. It's one reason I wrote the book. I've been writing is because I want to be better informed. I want to be able to say to a psychologist or somebody else who evaluates a child excuse me can you show me how you ruled out an expressive language problem in my child. Or tell me what you did to make sure he's not having trouble with long term memory. So I think we want to ask much much more specific questions based on what you're seeing as a parent on a day to day basis with your child. Our guest is Dr. Melvin He's a pediatrician. He's professor of pediatrics at University of North Carolina med school. He's also director of the university's Clinical Center for the Study of development and learning. And he is well known have for writing and speaking about

learning. And there he is the author of a couple of books we've mentioned I want to mention that again because I think that parents would find them very useful and they're both available in paperback so they're not terribly expensive. One is mind a mind at a time and the other the most recent is the myth of laziness and they're both published by Simon Schuster should be in the book. In the library in any case you might want to take a look at them and here of course on the program questions are welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 that's where Champaign-Urbana And also we do have a toll free line that was good anywhere that you can hear us 800 to 2 2 9 4 5. Maybe we'll talk about the myth of laziness and the idea that indeed laziness you know we that's a term we tossed around pretty carelessly and in fact as you say in the book that probably most people if they're having difficulty and whether we're talking about children or adults it's not it's

not laziness. There is some real thing going on that we ought to be aware of conscious right. You know I think you're everybody wants. To be productive I think every child and every adult wants the output that brings in praise. It makes you feel good and effective. So when somebody is not producing when a kid is not doing homework or in an adult is not really doing the job on the job. Then we can say where is the breakdown occurring what's happening along that person's assembly line. That's obstructing output that's obstructing that natural inclination to be a productive person. Where is that breakdown occurring. And if we take a close look we find it every time so much so that I don't think there's any such thing as a lazy person. I mean we all have lazy moments. But for a person to be deemed lazy I think is a very superficial and unhelpful way of thinking. Well the you you list in the book a number of specific things right issues that have to do with everything from

being able to be verbally fluent when I have sometimes trouble with myself difficulties in memory difficulties in just maintaining the kind of mental energy that's involved in seeing something through from beginning to end. A number of major areas. Right. And it could be when are are maybe more than one of these That's correct you know. So for example in childhood we have a really wonderful window on output it's called what you can get down on paper. Writing is a very interesting indicator of productivity in kids at least back a day. What productivity. And we see kids who have problems because they can't get thoughts on paper. Some of them have what we call graphic motor dysfunction. It's a big word but it means they have trouble getting their muscles to move during writing so letter formation is a struggle for them and and they often have an awkward pencil grip. Strange way of holding the pencil. Their handwriting may be barely legible but more than anything else it's just taking too much effort on their part. So they end up hating to

write they may be resistant to doing homework as a result and they demonstrate up with failure because of the motor blockage during writing. Other kids are lacking the memory capacity for. Ages can't remember enough for writing and you have to realize that when you're a kid absolutely nothing takes more memory than writing. If the simultaneous The recall letter formation spelling punctuation grammar capitalization facts vocabulary the assignment your own ideas and if you don't have a big enough memory cable going from your brain down to your fingers you can stop doing homework and then we see both adults and kids who have trouble with output because they're incredibly disorganized. You know they can organize time or they can organize materials where they can't put together the multiple moving parts that exist in a in a project they have to do. You just can't seem to get things together and integrate them. You have some people who have trouble with what I call step

wisdom. We're going step wisdoms means they don't have they don't seem to know how to look at a task and break it down into manageable steps. So they feel overwhelmed when they try to do something because they can't sort of break it down into its into its pieces into steps that they can swallow. So we have this wide range of possibilities a language issue or memory issue a mental energy issue or a motor issue that could be blocking output. And I think we have to give people the benefit of the doubt they'd like to produce but something's getting in the way. And the question is what is it and what do we do about it. We have a caller to bring into the conversation why don't we do that. So Ron who is on a cell phone on our line number one. Hello. Hi I just wanted to make a really strong with your position on the fighting and treating them individually I think that it is much more

effective. As you've indicated Im trying to deal with people and I just wanted to let you know you're aware of this. That we're not only talking to the people who make up money just abilities at that bad end but also people who are gifted or have a very apt ability to learn that you have to say I can see that you fort maybe need to go in and study this you know what I'm questioning doing this you know a little bit farther ahead and what you beat in your hand all the time I think you just read it a little bit so I don't know but I'm not going to be able to own you because. I know you know the answer and I just remember going to great and getting a good satisfactory for effort. And my parents didn't care because I thought Yeah right it was something she too was expecting and I think particularly now that we're understanding that we have not

only one difficulty all doctors have but we also have Asperger's Syndrome and it basically on the opposite end of the spectrum. So he wanted to go and that that's what we have to do is just look at each kid and deal with them that way I just want to make that comment with you very much. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. You want to say anything more about that Dr. Levine. But it's just I really do think the labels aren't helpful and they don't emphasize your strengths enough and your colleagues. When gifted have some problematic issues with that that somebody is really brilliant and a genius. I would say let me out of my own tell you what his weaknesses are. Well you can certainly imagine that that you would have could have somebody who would be lifted or be very bright or you know whatever word you want to use and yet have some of these kinds of difficulties that we've talked about you for example you know someone could be brilliant but they could be a really disorganized and have trouble with those same sorts of

tasks. But I did and not be able to use their full potential for just those those very those same very things they can exasperate their teachers or parents because they seem so brilliant but they're just not producing commensurate with what we know their intelligence is. Are all of these things do you think one way or another the result of it. Eventually the way people's brains are wired I think to a large extent they are but they can also be influenced by environment by your culture. By by the kind of education you received by your own personality. So I think a lot of factors can shape these things. But you know any parent who has three kids at home can tell you how different they are in the way they learn and in the way they seem to function even though they're brought up in the same household with the same parents and the same life experiences there can be enormous variation even within a family. It's partly genetic partly

environmental partly cultural partly medical but mostly mysterious why someone is wired the way that she's wired. Some of these things that you were talking about you were talking about before that is that children or adults can have different kinds of difficulties either we can talk about memory issues or verbal fluency or just maintaining the kind of mental energy it takes to see a task through or the issue of organization it would seem to me that some of these things might be a little bit more easy to deal with. But you could that it might be an easier thing for example to coach someone on. Being more organized or how to break a task down into discrete steps so it makes it easier to do it doesn't seem quite so overwhelming that that might be a little bit more of a practical issue and when you're dealing with with other sorts of things motor issues memory issues maybe also lack of verbal fluency that there it seems that

it's much more what we're looking at is something much more difficult because it was maybe a little bit more a matter of internal wiring than it simply is of. Being being organized or being able to break things down into recognizable pieces and deal with it. You know I did it at such a crucial question how malleable are we. To what extent can we change the way someone is wired or improve the way someone is wired and in individual case it can be very hard to know we think even with organizational skills I have a patient of mine is about 18 or 19 years old he came to see me recently. A really nice kid who's totally disorganized and is a doctor living. I have taken so many classes on studies and organizational skills that I'm ready to go teach them. He said I just don't use any of them myself. So you can fit a lead in animal to the trough but you can't make him drink out of it and sometimes there's a big difference between a kid understanding what he needs to do and then actually doing it we see it all the time I

mean people can understand if they need to stop smoking that doesn't mean they're going to stop smoking. Well with empathy just with a particular case do you think that it really really was a case that. There was some reason that he either he was resistant or that the kinds of coaching that he had gotten just didn't work for him or that info or that somehow one still could find the right approach and you just have to say to yourself Well if we just found the right way to put to put it to the guy he would say oh yeah see i see OK and then start doing it all of the above where you wonder whether he had the right kind of teaching you went with who's still a better car and you also wonder whether at some point in life you'll be ready for something called readiness for help. And if you try to help someone in the not ready to accept help you're probably wasting your time. So there's a kind of a kind of state of mind of saying you know I really want to do something about these organizational problems and I'm not sure this kid was that motivated to do anything about it he was pretty happy with the way his life was going in a disorganized fashion.

And then I think there was. People for whom for example organization doesn't feel right it doesn't come naturally to them it doesn't fit with their temperament personality and orientation unless they really like having a messy desk. They feel most comfortable you know in chaos. But it can take its own merit. Put it this touches on it. Maybe another point that maybe is important to make is that the kinds of things that here we're talking about here they're not just things that you see in children. It seems that if people if these are the sort of difficulties that people have when they are children it seems that as they grow up and become adults these things don't go away they they and they may learn to cope with them and they maybe adopt too. Live their life successfully even though they have those issues but it sounds as if those things don't go away and continue may indeed continue to dog people into their adulthood.

They can come back as little leitmotifs throughout your life. Recurring themes in a sense but a lot of people prove tremendously for example. There are adults who were very verbal very good at communicating and never were all good with language when they were kids. And they really focused on it and they really concentrated on speaking well and speaking in full sentences and little by little. Language ability improved significantly and you know this often happens. It's really quite interesting but people will sometimes develop their language abilities within an area of passion. Let's pretend there's some kid who loves sports well that way to build his language abilities or to have him talk as much sports talk as possible. And elaborate on the ball game he saw the other night and very often your area of passion your area of strong interest your niche is the place in which you get organized. It's interesting I've taken care of a lot of kids over the years who become chefs in restaurants. And they're very

disorganized in their daily lives and totally organized in the kitchen. I mean you can't be a chef in a big restaurant without pay without being that organized No no you can't. So within their domain they can get their act together. The parts of their life may not be responding. We are at our midpoint and I just would like to introduce Again our guest Dr. Mel Levine. He is a pediatrician and he's professor of pediatrics at University of North Carolina med school. He's also director of the university's Clinical Center for the Study of development and learning and is the author of several books on learning and to that I have mentioned they're both available now in paperback. One is a mind at a time and the other the more recent is the myth of laziness and they're both published by Simon and Schuster and they're not terribly expensive so if you're interested in taking a look at them if you have children I think that you'd find a lot in that they're out there in the bookstore the library questions comments are certainly welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We do also have a toll

free line that's good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5. What sort of things do you do to try to help people who have memory difficulties. Well let me give you an example. Basically what we try to do is take some of the strain off memory let's say there's a child who hates to write because he just can't access all those memory pathways at the same time in order remember spelling and punctuation and vocabulary and the assignment of his own ideas and facts and stuff he just can't access all that stuff simultaneously. Well let me try to have him write in stages. And I take Billy why don't you just bring Stuart tonight and write down a lot of good ideas. And don't worry about punctuation and worry about your spelling will do that some other time. And by breaking it down into stages without asking him to remember everything all at once he suddenly is able to write. And we might also want to give him some leeway on the memory part of writing. The teacher might say look don't worry

about spelling this week it's not a priority. Just get your ideas and work on spelling another time. But these kids can't do all these things or if they can't remember spelling punctuation grammar capitalization so to give him a waiver on one during an assignment. Another thing that helps memory a lot is using your computer because in a way what a computer is is just some more memory that you take on board. And the computer will remember how to make an H and then you don't have to. Spell check for example is another good memory aid for kids so computer support I want to help children who have memory problems that are making it hard for them to write. Let's talk with another caller we have someone here also a cell phone caller here on our line one. Well. I guess just a comment and a question. I'm I'm 60 years old. I'm a school psychologist and a behavioral analyst. And I'm a terribly disorganized person. I just never worried me too much

because I always do everything with you so much but my office looks like I don't look like chaos. I always thought Oh yeah because if you do I'm not but I'm getting to this stage or my memory is not quite as good as I think I'm going to have to go. I go yeah you're kind of on us. Well maybe I can just say a word based on what he said sure. I think you can have a messy office and be well organized. If you know everything you have. So the outward appearance of disorganization may not really be true disorganization if you meet deadlines if you can find things. If you have what you need when you need it when you're organized you're not terribly tidy but you're organized. I guess the issue. Can you go. Can you do the work that you need to do. The way that you do it and if the answer is yes well then maybe that's OK if the answer is No

then maybe the the issue as well. What about it is very absent minded. But you could really depend on them to get a job and they meet deadlines and workers of higher quality. I mean this isn't getting in the way. It's just a kind of future of the person. Yeah. It occurs to me that part of the problem maybe or part of the difficulty I think sometimes particularly for children in school situations does have to do with with pressure to perform under a very tight deadline perhaps. Right. Or as you say it's the the the matter of the children because on a child and he or she has three seconds to come up with an answer and that probably almost anybody will find it difficult to perform under that situation and that maybe that that means that you need to try to find ways to try to take the pressure off not only in the classroom but perhaps here is a place that parents can really be involved and try to work on some of those issues

away from school in the home and all and do it they'll particularly do it in a way. Low pressure kind of atmosphere. Absolutely and I think we educators and educational policymakers have to take a new look at the current issue in school. My opinion or should be on time. Yes a tease should be on time for everybody. And in fact kids ought to be rewarded for taking more time doing things. What we want to do is produce a whole generation of kids who know how to work carefully and slowly and deliberately. And we're almost encouraging them to be impulsive. I mean if I were a history teacher in tenth grade I would give kids all the time they want to write their essay but tell them they're only allowed to write two pages. It makes much more sense to limit space than to limit the time if you're if you go into journalism your editor is going to tell you only article can be but he doesn't care if you spend an hour and a half or 20 minutes on it as long as it's good. So I think constantly requiring kids to work very fast under timed conditions is not really preparing them for anything I don't

know what a time multiple choice test does for your mind. It's all applicable in the adult world. I think that it was the last caller unfortunately his his call kind of broke up on us and I think though he he wanted to ask your thoughts about the No Child Left Behind legislation is something I actually wanted to ask about too because it's been something that the president has pointed to as something that he feels as a success of this legislation that says to schools we're going to do we're going to demand that you demonstrate student performance there's going to be accountability and that then federal assistance is going to be hinged on that. It's been very controversy up because some people on the other and in schools are saying you know that's really not helpful it's not the way to go and in fact there's been some question about here and there whether schools in order to meet the standards set by the government. They're just there to clipping off the kids who are not. Forming that's when they're just not counting their their score says so some people are saying you know it it's

not really doing what we say that it's there to do and I just wonder what you think about there. I've seen the phenomenon you mentioned before a school will actually take its kids with learning problems out of the mainstream and only test the ones who are doing reasonably well and report those scores well you know sort of exile some of the students into resource rooms or something and find a way of not including them in the data. But I think the No Child Left Behind legislation. It has some benefits to it it's good to hold schools accountable. It's good to to make sure that children are acquiring skills and Unfortunately that requires testing. But as everyone says we wish we didn't have to test but it's hard to come up with a better alternative for really keeping people accountable on the other hand I think we have to be really careful that we're not hurting kids. We've been No Child Left Behind I find that a lot. Paradoxical to say we have legislation called No

Child Left Behind but if you don't pass the end of grade testing third grade we're going to leave you behind. And third grade is not a contradiction it seems to me if you don't pass the test thing then we're not going to leave you behind and humiliate you knowing that grade retention is one of the most humiliating experiences a kid can endure. If you don't test the third grade testing we're going to hope that we can intervene actively to make sure that you improve your reading rather than punish you by retaining you integrate. I also think we need to realize that you can't evaluate every kid the same way. That some kids don't test well but they know more than you think. And we have to look at different kinds of Mearns and the best way to get at what they know and what they can do. It's also the case that we we should offer some alternatives to. Just think some of the ways that kids can demonstrate their output and and their accomplishments so I think what I'm saying is that if no child left behind is to continue.

We need to build in safeguards so we're not hurting certain kids. But we also need to be careful that teachers are not teaching to the test. But they've given up all other aspects of teaching and the whole educational mission is to make sure your kids do well on the testing which means a lot of important parts of school will no longer be taught because they're not on the test. And that would be a real shame and we're hearing some teachers complaining about that as well. In fact if I were a bazaar of education I would not test every school every year I would do it randomly and I would make sure people don't know when the testing is going to be done. And I would try to make sure that it be almost illegal to prepare kids for the test. Writers just come and go and we have some of the callers to bring in let's go to the next in champagne. Caroline I'm number one. Hello good morning. Very interesting comments. I agree with a lot of what you said about the whole the trap

No Child Left Behind. And as a parent I appreciate so many teachers who I think are working really really hard and it seem fairly realistic to expect that every child will perform the same on a standardized test or perform. You know if the expectation is a lot of concern there but it will be much of a report which is that we need to keep a close eye on the dropout rate. Yes because there's been some places where the testing has been in place and people feel pretty good about accountability and the dropout rate in high school has increased. Kids are just getting discouraged and dropping out of school. From what I understand I can think of no not timing on testing that I know that there are areas. Or some school districts near the Houston area that had unlimited time to take those tests and I think it would be interesting to compare to them here. Well out of that complex is there of course with

what happened there but with that the whole timing issue and children being expected to perform and a certain amount of time. I did and I think realistically there has to be some limit. And my my question for you is my challenge and I have a third grader who is she's bright and loves school work very early but is quite a dreamy child really easily distracted and as a parent I've gotten the same message from every teacher over the years. We know she knows the information you know we just need to see her be more productive. And while I think that the general trend in schools especially because. No Child Left Behind is to rush. Can't I do what I do want to help her be realistic about accomplishing and being productive in getting to a point of completion and what can you say or what you have in your book that I can maybe laugh and check out that speaks to that. The

dreamy mind of the mind easily distracted wishing you know figure eight furiously working in badly you know and left field. Well as we mentioned one of the reasons why kids have reduced output is because the remailer mental energy. And the mental energy to concentrate to to finish what you start to be able to sustain your effort is problematic for some children it sounds like that might be true of your daughter. She she's having trouble mobilizing her attention focusing and keeping it focused. Does she have any difficulty sleeping at night. No because some of these children do. Is just really need to get up and walk around they need to take more frequent breaks. It's also important just to rule out the possibility that she may have some other kind of learning problem that's in the way. Even though she's very bright she may have real trouble sort of expressing herself or

getting her ideas out or organizing her thoughts. So at some point it might be good to have her you waited to see where the obstruction is. In her part it can be a whole lot of different things and sometimes distractibility is a trait that a child has and other times kids become distracted because what they're doing feels too hard to them or they've run out of energy. It would be worth looking into a little more. Yeah I think in some cases that X state it both are challenging but some of that work. Maybe it will but not challenging enough. You know it's possible to learn to be creative and and a lot of cashew or a lot. Children who have that kind of distractibility and go off and daydream on what I call the free flight of ideas they're often highly creative individuals you have to make sure she's having enough creative outlets to keep strengthening their creativity. OK and do you think that more in your book I've read like I can find out more about how to and really had to approach it because I think

possibly my first of the two books that I've done recently a mind at a time might be a bit more helpful to you. OK well thank you very much. I thank you Kerry. Thank you for the call. We have some others. The next would be in Chicago on our line for. The low low doctor. You were mentioning earlier about how the chefs have the ability to be organized at work and at home he was a disorganized right. One may be more based on the fact that he's plugging into the structure of the restaurant. It's possible but. Lot of times he's responsible for creating that structure but with incentive of making 11. Yes exactly. You know one other piece though. Yeah which is that people can often improve their brain function when they find their niche in other words if there's an area that you have a real affinity for a kind of domain that really resonates with your kind of mind. We find people who can develop their language abilities their organizational

skills by focusing within the area that just sort of harmonize as beautifully with their kind of mind. And I've seen a sex scene adults who are very verbal and expressive who never could talk well when they were kids but they went into the computer field they read a lot of computer manuals they talked a lot of computer talk and now they're writing poetry. Well it seems to me that if the person developed it in the in the shop proved to them that eventually he could bring it home but I think a lot of cases it doesn't happen. That's correct. You know it is that I really believe we're so inceptive inceptive base that if there's no incentive to clean your own home or be organized in your own home it kind of goes in the wayside right there I think that's a factor I think that has to be factored in. And the other thing I was going to mention you were talking about how we're basically taught the past. But I think that's what I mean that's been going on for years. My my sister was was like a child genius so to speak him and she

could pass tests and memorize and she can do every Jeopardy answer in the world but functioning right now most of the functions used top to pass tests. Well one thing I'm very interested in is the extent to which schools stress memory over understanding right. And there are kids who are valedictorians in their high school class because they have the best rote memory in the school. And when you grow up and get in a career there's nothing more useless than rote memory. And to see that's what the affirmation of space that that's that they that's what the difficulty is it kind of freezes the development of a person because you keep performing only in one aspect of learning. That's exactly right and it's not a very important especially nowadays when your hard drive is on your desk you don't need to be a great memories of right. Oh OK. Oh thank you. Thanks for the call. We have about 15 minutes left in this little bit less in this part of folks five ages want to introduce Again our guest very quickly Dr. Melusine He's a pediatric pediatrician. He's a professor of pediatrics at University of North Carolina med school and he's also director of the university's Clinical Center for the Study of development

and learning and has written a lot about learning and speaks on that all the time he's become quite well-known for that and is the author of these two books that I've mentioned the myth of laziness and one a mind at a time. And these books are both now out of paperback published by Simon and Schuster will go on to the next caller and I believe that that person would be in champagne and knowing take the back will go to well Milwaukee for a call here line number three. Hello. Hi I have a question. I have a good month old baby that is breastfeeding and she's still eating and I have been getting divorced. They're in the court decision. She was one night a week at her father's. It's very decision. I repeat. I agree with it and I believe that it's traumatizing to the baby because basically she's not

sleeping overnight. She didn't write that about. So I'm wondering what to perspective on this. I think I'm probably the wrong person to ask and I think you should check with your own pediatrician knows you're with your baby really well it's hard to generalize about things and also the topic but I'm sort of involved with this with older children and they're learning. Or it doesn't quite fit with your situation. Right. But I can certainly respect your desire to do what's right for your child. Your baby. Yeah I'm afraid that that maybe is the best answer that weekend can give you at least on this program today. We do have on a monthly show that we do with a pediatrician that you might look for but it's going to be a couple weeks since we until we can do that again have you talked about it would you have. On pediatrician Have you talked about it with your own doctor.

And that indeed that hasn't been helpful. Do you see that there's a long term trauma to the baby. Not necessarily. Again I think it's important to look at the whole situation and somebody who knows you well and knows the baby and the whole situation I think you probably evaluate it better than I can on the radio show. Yeah I would say that's probably about the best we can do I'm sorry. You know it's really hard to you know. We have often we have physicians on the program people who come from different disciplines and one of the things I always say is that we hope people come to stand we can do diagnosis over the telephone and we do shows like these because we hope that they will add to people's knowledge and it is a place that they can ask questions but there are always limits. And that's I think the crucial factor you know there's only so much personal information you can solicit in a format like this and it makes it really tough. And then of

course all guests can't be experts on everything so I'm really sorry I think I talk about the best we can do for the caller. Well we have other people here let's go on and the next is going to be Herb Bana and the line number one. Hello. Very interested in your problem. I just wanted to say about this whole business of home No Child Left Behind and so forth and in fact my local school board member who said that in a friend of Illinois there are no standards for home school children and if there's a problem with truancy all the parent has to do is say I'm not home school nick and they. They can't inform the school and that's the whole issue and here in terms of learning and standards that we're not addressing I just wanted to type that out is just another piece of information to add to what you're saying before I mooched your crisp report thanks. Go onto Savelli that's the next color line to follow.

Hi thanks for taking my call. I may have missed this in a discussion I've been in the car doing errands. I really appreciate what you're saying in your program and as the parent of a very bright child whose kid was taught a cookie cutter method for the first two years and two months he was in school I again appreciate what you're saying. Do you still see a movement education being the most studied system. So I've heard in the United States. I will say. People looking at this and think OK Defo need to do. How happened I think. Thank you. OK I believe there is a strong trend in this direction recognizing that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to education and we have to treat different kids somewhat differently but different children have different profiles of strengths and weaknesses different ways of learning and that we can recognize this. It's not an overwhelming problem to recognize it. I run an Institute a nonprofit institute called all kinds of minds. And one of the programs within that institute is called schools tune where we train teachers around the country to

understand these differences in learning understand children strengths as well as their weaknesses and it really pertains to all kids not just the small population of them. And we find that the teachers are becoming increasingly interested in the variations between their students the different patterns of wiring they're likely to encounter in a classroom and teachers are telling us that by understanding this it's making their job easier they have fewer behavior problems. The kids are much more readily teachable when people do understand these variations when they understand that there's a particular child who probably should print instead of doing cursive writing when there's another kid who has memory problems. So you shouldn't surprise him and call on him in class but maybe warn him the day before that you're going to call on him tomorrow. So there are a lot of. Things that teachers can do that are actually going to make their lives easier when they recognize the differences that exist across the classroom and we're finding this gaining widespread acceptance.

And maybe I mention again if people are interested in learning more about all kinds of minds then they do and if they have internet access there is a Web site that people can look at which is w w w dot all kinds of minds. That's as one word no spaces between there are all kinds of minds orgy and they can find out what's all about. You know it occurs to me based on the wide range of comments and questions we had this morning that there were probably a lot of parents who have questions. A lot of different kind of questions and they don't know where to go. They don't know who to ask. And. And I wonder if indeed you think that there's. That is a problem and how parents can even think about approaching the subject of where do I find the person. To ask this question that I have. It's a huge problem because a lot of times these people aren't where you think they are and they're not who you think they are. Obviously you have to start with the school but I think you have to be a

wise consumer of advice from the school. And I think parents almost have to educate themselves to a large extent just as if you were going to go buy a new car you decide to do in a check are Consumer Reports and some other car reviews before doing it. I think parents have to do some reading up on kids minds and become more knowledgeable so they can ask the right questions and evaluate the answers. And there are people in the schools who can provide really interesting and useful information on how your child learns. If you ask the right questions you ask Well there are also sometimes psychologists or special educators who practice out in the community who can be very helpful to you. But again you have to ask good questions. And in my opinion and this is only my opinion when you ask could you sit a please don't give me any labels for my child. If you could be more specific I would appreciate it tell me exactly what gets in the way when he she tries to write or when she tries to pay attention. I think you can come up with good answers. You also should ask other parents whose kids have been struggling to identify people in the community really been

helpful and the people who just haven't been helpful. We have we're coming to the point here we just have maybe about three minutes unfortunately not enough time to get into the subject I want to raise right now but I guess I want to do that at least for a couple of minutes because it is it is the subject of a lot of controversy and that is the use of medication right in children particularly kids who have been identified as having some kind of attention problem. Right. You know some people think that it's terrible some people would say that it was it she had miraculous results for their children and it was very successful and made all the difference in the world. How do you approach that. Well as usual the answer is somewhat in between I consider myself. The conservative side when it comes to medication but I'm not opposed to using medication either. And there are some children who can benefit a lot especially those who are struggling with their attention and benefit a fair amount from the use of medication. But it's never the whole story. It's never the final answer. So I think it has to be used carefully and in

appropriate doses and for as short a time as we can use it and get away with it. I also should mention to you that it's very rare for a kid to have attention deficit and nothing else. Almost every kid is having trouble with attention as a little cluster of dysfunctions may be trouble with attention plus language plus memory retention plus social skills plus. Sequencing things and so we always have to define the whole cluster before you just throw a kid on medication because you might be missing something that's really going to gnaw away at that child's learning and self-esteem over time you're kind of half covering it up with the medication. So I don't think any kid should be put on medication until he's been evaluated thoroughly. And we should never expect medicine to be the magic bullet for sort of take care of everything. Well there I think that we will leave it with again a mention that if you'd like to read more on the subject you can look for these books that we've talked about. Myth of laziness and a mind at a time. There are now in paperback published by Simon Schuster by our guest Mel again. He's professor

of pediatrics University North Carolina med school. And again if you're interested in all kinds of minds and you have access to the Internet you can go to that website which is w w w dot all kinds of minds. All is one word dot org. And to you Dr. Levine thanks once again for being with us. Thank you very much David.