Focus 580; THE RAPTURE EXPOSED:  THE MESSAGE OF HOPE IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION

Today in America there's a significant number of conservative Christians. Most of them Protestants but also some Catholics who have come to embrace the idea of the Rapture when Christ comes again. He will. So this a story go take. Born again believers off the earth take them away to a safe place and then back on the earth the final battle between good and evil will take place. It's an idea that has been popularized by a series of novels known as the Left Behind series that have sold literally tens of millions of books. And from there the ideas have managed also to seep out to some extent into the popular culture. There are however other Christians that are very concerned about this vision of the End Times they believe that it is a misreading of the Bible and that it is perhaps a dangerous set of ideas at least something to be concerned about this morning in this part of focus 580 we'll be talking with Barbara Ross saying she is a Lutheran theologians She's associate professor of New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago. She is also an ordained minister. She's

lectured and preached widely in the helical Lutheran Church in America. She also has served congregations in Minnesota in Washington state she also served as chaplain at the Harvard University Divinity School. She has a Master of Divinity gree from Yale and doctor of theology degree from Harvard. She will be in Champaign Urbana this weekend to give a talk. And this is in conjunction with an exhibition at the Krannert art museum that looks at images of apocalypse in art stretching over a period of roughly 500 years all the way from Dura on one end to Jasper Johns on the other it's an exhibition that will be on view at the crowded Art Museum on the campus through the 3rd of April. So if you're interested you can certainly stop by the museum. Her talk will be on Sunday afternoon at 2 o'clock. And that of course is also open to the public anyone who is interested should certainly feel welcome they can stop by and hear what she has to say. Also if you're interested in exploring some of her thinking on the subject you can look for a book which he authored and was

published last year titled The Rapture exposed the subtitle is The message of hope in the Book of Revelation it is published by the Westview press and certainly should be available in a bookstore near you. If you'd like to take a look at it questions of course are welcome here in the show. If you'd like to call in and talk with our guest you may do that. We ask only that callers are brief and we ask that so that we can keep the program moving along and going to as many different people as possible but of course anyone who's listening is welcome to join in 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 is the number here in Champaign Urbana. Also we have toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 3 3 3 WRAL and toll free 800 1:58 WLM. PROFESSOR ROSS ng. Hello. Hello. Thank you very much for talking with us. Well it's good to be with you. I'm sure that there are some people who will be familiar with this view of the End Times. They will be talking about

perhaps because perhaps because they've read these books there and as I said they they've sold very widely and then of course the popular media has commented on that phenomena and the sales of those books. So there are some people indeed who will be familiar with what it is we're talking about. However I expect there will be others who will not. So we ought to do just the basics right at the beginning and talk about what what is this vision of the Second Coming. OK well I'm a Lutheran minister and my view would be similar to Roman Catholics and most mainline Protestants which is that Jesus will come again. But what the Rapture proponents do is split that second coming into two parts. And this was a theory that was invented I argue in the 19th century so it's very recent. They say that Jesus will come first to take people away as you said a kind of escapism and then there'll be this seven year period of tribulation which I argue is not in the Bible. And then that

Jesus would come again for a second second. But this whole notion of the rapture is a relatively recent phenomenon. So that's the point at which we disagree I would follow more traditional view that it's been the teaching of Christianity since the very beginning that Jesus will come one. Where does it where does this idea or these this sets of ideas this reading of Revelation. Also I think that the Book of Daniel is an important touchstone for where and for these folks. Where exactly does that come from how how does this set of ideas get going and then how does it come to the United States. Well the piece it together I mean they they will string together Bible verses to argue that this is what the Bible says using as you say a first here from Daniel a verse there from Revelation. And actually the chronology was put together by a British preacher in the 19th century named John Nelson Darby who became the founder of the Plymouth Brethren and he then brought it to the United States he made a number of trips to the U.S. and did a lot of

speaking and teaching it was then popularised also through the Scofield Reference Bible that was the Bible that many Americans used in the early 1900s and 20th century. I'm sorry in the 20th century. And and that's why people came to think that this is the biblical view but it's not. That isn't what the Bible says. The I suppose one of the big questions here is why is it that this seems to have caught the imagination of such a significant number of people and it's not the first time that in fact that this is happening. Perhaps people will remember back to a book that at one time was also very influential because the imagination of a lot of people a book tied to the Late Great Planet Earth which laid out a similar kind of similar kind of scenario for the End Times was not I don't I guess that was quite popular although in no way equals the popularity of the Left Behind

books. What's the appeal. Well that is a really good question and I think I've worked a lot on that in writing my own book The Rapture exposed. I think it appeals to people desire to have events to be predicted in advance so some will argue that things like even the tsunami that hit 80s or recently or earthquakes or plagues that it's somehow more comforting if we can think that the. Are predicted by the Bible in the Book of Revelation lays out a script of future events. I don't think that's how the Book of Revelation works. I don't think we're to look to the Bible for a predictive script but some people have that sort of horoscope mentality about biblical prophecy and find comfort them in in the claim however false that the Bible predicts events in the Middle East or in other global disasters around the world. Is this can we see over time a pattern where during times when there is great conflict and

people feel that their values are being assaulted and that the culture is coming apart and that there is a lot of conflict in the world that it seems that times are very difficult. Do you see this kind of millennial thinking popping up throughout history at least the last couple thousand years at points like that. Yes absolutely and that's why I think that the art exhibit at the grantor will be such a good context for this whole discussion because we do see in the artwork that throughout the centuries people have been very interested just as you say at times of social or economic crisis in turning to apocalyptic thinking. So that yes this definitely is nothing new it's been around since. Beginning of Christianity and also in Jewish tradition. Wow. Well as we go into this a little bit depth there another number of things I think we can talk about but perhaps up front it would be worth raising the question why

it is that this matters and in and perhaps I would ask that in two ways why it is that it should matter to people like you to Christians and then why it is that it should matter to people who would who are not Christians or would say that you know matters of faith and religion spirituality or are not not big on their radar screen. And it's not something I spend a lot of time thinking about so with. I mean within Christianity itself within the community of believers why is it that you think that this is a critical issue and that you and other people would want to come forward and say to your fellow be lever's I think that this is a misreading of scripture. And I think that there are some problems connected with that. Well within Christianity I think the key issue is is what's your image of God and of Jesus and the image that the Left Behind novels and the Scripture thinking puts forward is that God's plan is to destroy the world that God is an

avenging warrior. And Jesus will come back with the wrath of the Lamb It's a very violent and terrifying view of God and I would say that fundamentally I don't think that is God's plan for the world God does not want to destroy the world nor is this escapist idea that God is going to somehow snatch Christians out of the world while God inflicts its actions. Biblical but rather God is a guy who comes to dwell with us on Earth and to be with us in suffering and whatever we experience and God has no plans to leave the world behind so I think from a religious side it's very important to take on the image of God and the fundamental question. Like that then it also matters for all of us even for those who are not churchgoers because of the political dimensions of this rapture thinking are rather significant in our culture people who after 9/11 tried to correlate the disasters in the Middle East or other places with somehow a plan that God has laid out in the Bible to

to slaughter people in the Middle East who are not believers and other kinds of things I think the political dimensions of this fundamentalist version of Christianity really need to be challenged. And that's what I'm trying to do in my book. We have one caller here other people who are listening are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5 color here is in Eureka toll free line 1 4 below. Thank you. First of all I'd like to thank your author and guest for her insights work and I think she is exactly right that the understanding of it is extremely important to get to certain political movements. I guess my question would be how widespread in your view does this view take hold of in Christendom especially given. The fact I get left behind series of sold gets my understanding is in the millions of books. Right but so that's a really good question. Certainly there are many they will claim

50 million of those novels have sold. It's a series of 12 novels. So I guess you could say it's not 50 million readers but nonetheless we do know that in the United States. Fundamentalist evangelicals of course have to talk about how you define those terms number somewhere in the rant range of 30 million people. There are probably more than that who believe some of it and I guess what I would say because I'm I'm a pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America so we consider ourselves evangelicals also that that. I'm certainly trying to reach people who believe in the Bible and but have questions about this interpretation so I think there's sort of different levels of influence of this kind of thinking it's pretty widespread in the United States less so in the rest of the world. This is not at all the teaching of traditional denominations like the happy likes or Presbyterian Lutherans or anybody else but it has taken hold in many of our parishes and I think we need to counteract that.

Grasp your question if you ever interviewed anyone like Lindsay or any other very prominent proponents of this philosophy. I know not myself personally I was on 60 Minutes where Ken Lay and Jerry Jenkins the author of The Left Behind novels where on this was back in April but we didn't go head to head over this but we were both interviewed by Morley Safer So I've been. And then Jack Van Impe you know other fundamentalists have attacked me on this show but not directly. I said OK thank you very much. All right thank you for the call Perhaps I should introduce again the guest for anyone who has tuning in we're talking this morning with Barbara Rausing. She teaches New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago and is an ordained Lutheran minister in the Lutheran Church in America. She is the author of the book The Rapture exposed the message of hope in the Book of Revelations published by the Westview press she will be here in Champaign-Urbana this weekend to give a talk at the granite art museum and as I mention in the beginning this is in conjunction with an exhibition of art that deals with or includes images of the apocalypse

and samples work of artists stretching over a period of several hundred years. This will be on view through April 3rd. Her talk is Sunday two o'clock in the afternoon at the credit art museum so again anybody who is interested should stop a 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 is the number here in Champaign Urbana toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. I have several of the callers. Next someone listening this morning in Terre Haute line one. Hello and good morning thank you for let me this morning. I have three questions and I'll get on the first one. Could this have something to do with the great deception that we read about in the Bible that's question number one. And could this be used as a scare tactic to. Keep the tie in most of our churches that believe this situation and also with all the technology we have Could the death of the devil through all this

technology possibly use man to create a counterfeit rapture and get off unless you want to ask me something more and then I'll be off to listen. OK. Well I don't know I think the questions are fairly clear. Professor Rozen you want to take them on. OK I couldn't hear everything as I think he's on a cell phone is breaking up a little bit but I gather they it's he has three states the fixed point. And I would say I mean obviously we haven't heard from before but this would reflect what some people try to do which is take specific things in the Bible and lay that out as a kind of script and then try to correlate it with. Happening in our culture and I don't think that's how the Bible is meant to be interpreted so I guess I. I think this kind of looking for specific fulfillment of of individual Bible verses in the events of our time is problematic now I certainly agree with it with the caller that there's evil in the world and humans are

participants in this and that we need to heed the Bible's call to reject that but as for specific looking for the anti-christ you're looking for this or that figure in the world today I think that's a dangerous way of using the bible so I probably would not agree with him if he's looking for individual correlation of events. Well let me ask this question and I would expect that people who who resonate with this scenario of the End Times do actually believe that they're not using it as a cynical way of recruiting people to the faith. But I wonder whether you think that it has been employed to you either to to strengthen people's faith to strengthen their commitment to the church to their congregation and. And whether or not in fact it has it has done that has that is there in a way of saying that that has brought people as lead people to either be stronger in their

faith or to take on the faith where they didn't have it before. Oh absolutely and I should emphasize I mean I believe it as well I certainly believe it. But I would call attention to Jesus teachings where he warns against trying to figure out the specifics of the End Times. There are plenty of places in the Gospels in the book of Acts where he cautions his followers not to try to figure out the signs of the end times but yet thinking about the end of the world whether for an individual person thinking about their own death or about what the world is moving towards in terms of fulfillment and that can definitely bring people to faith and have done so. I would question whether that kind of sensationalistic and sort of violent script that some people. Try to follow is as helpful as far as envisioning God but there's no question that that thinking about our own end can bring people to faith. And that's a good thing.

Well let me ask you this question and a guess and do correct me if I'm if I'm misunderstanding as a guess of one of the things that I think I know about the early years of Christianity is that people in that time people who who knew Jesus who followed him personally or who came not long after believed that he would come back in their lifetime. Yes. And that so that it seems that it it is it's something of a challenge or just a puzzle if you want to look at it that way where generation after generation comes. And yet there there's no second coming. I mean then so it seems that that as we get as one gets further and further and further away then how it is you think about this idea of the Second Coming and how and when it's supposed to happen and how it's going to happen starts to become a little bit more and more problematic. It has over time. Has there been some kind of a change within theology and a change of how it is one thinks about that and indeed

whether. Does that influence whether you think that there will actually be an end of time. You know what put put that in quotes put that in big letters. Yeah great questions I'm just teaching a class this afternoon on the Apostle Paul for example and I think we see even within his letters shift of thinking where in his first letter the letter of Thessalonians he clearly thought Jesus was coming back at any minute but the in some of his later letters he came to understand that somewhat differently that no matter when Jesus returns we need to live face fully as if it could happen at any moment and I think for me that's the key question is the question of ethics. I love to use this quote from Martin Luther if if I knew the world were going to end tomorrow I would plant a tree. And I think what Luther is saying with that is what we really need to say which is that our the way we live for the end times is by caring for the world that God has given not with a sort of escapist kind of mentality but really loving our neighbor. Taking care of the world

Jesus told parables about the householder had who had gone away but was going to come back and and we are the servants who are supposed to take care of the house while he's away so I think the ethical questions of how we live in this interim time are really key. Whether it's an interim the last 2000 years or 10000 years or or two years or whatever we are given a way of life that is. And also that God's presence dawns in our midst throughout this time I wouldn't say that God is absent from the world waiting to come again in the second coming I think that Christians are called to see how God is in our midst and coming to us often and daily and hope filled ways. Well I guess there is and I have a number of other callers the lines are full and I will get to them but you point to something there in the common that you made that I think is is of concern to many Christians about their for their fellow believers. And what are the implications of taking on this view and that is if you think

that the second coming could come tomorrow or later this afternoon or five minutes from now. That's going to that may lead you to live your life in a certain way or at least in a different way than if you think that it's a more that it's a more. It's a slightly more abstract thing that is you can't point to a day on the calendar and say OK this is the day and that. And it seemed like the scene that you were concerning other people concerned about how it is that leads you to live in the world. Absolutely. I mean one place that really matters especially is the Middle East we haven't talked about that yet but I mean some Christian fundamentalists who hold to this left behind or rapture view think that a certain kind of a set of events has to happen in the Middle East as we count down to Jesus return. They think that the state of Israel has to take over all the land from Palestinians they think that the Jewish temple has to be rebuilt on the temple mount so that an anti-Christ figure Condesa created so that Jesus can return again

and to say that God is somehow imprisoned in this version of the script that this is these are what specific current events must happen I think is a very scary view so yeah it it really the question is how we live as we are faithful awaiting God's presence whenever that that is. Well maybe I'll ask one for the question and then I promise that the people who are on the telephone I will get to them. Well in your great question and that is it has to do with with the Book of Revelation which I think that people have have wrestled with and puzzled over for a long long time because it doesn't seem to be. It's very difficult to try to figure out what it is about and it seems to be open to variety of different kinds of interpretations. Right. What in your estimation if you can say this in a thumbnail sketch kind of way. What is the Book of Revelation about. Well that's the key question it's an apocalypse. That's the very first word of the book apocalypse of Jesus Christ and what that means is a revelation or an unveiling.

Like pulling back the curtain I use the analogy of of in the Wizard of Oz where it's a little Toto the dog who pulls back the curtain to expose for who he is and I think that's when an apocalypse does expose something and in the case of revelation it was written to expose the Roman Empire for the unjust system that it was. So I would argue that the Book of Revelation is not a pretty predictive script of and time events. It's an apocalyptic journey that takes John the author and each one of us on journeys to see our world more deeply a journey to the heart of God and also to see evil in our world. So it's showing us God's vision for the world by pulling back the curtain and then it's also giving an exposé of the Imperial injustice that was Rome in the ancient world and then of course we can ask you know what does that say to us today but most of all it's not predicting a script. The events in the 21st century or any other time it's a different kind of a

local vision I hope and I've read a quote from you in one of the articles that I read that I was kind of interesting and I hope this is not it is not too flippant to mention it but you said say in a way you make a little bit of a comparison between Dickens and revelation in the sense that in with the Christmas Carol the story we get is this. You know that the protagonist is shown this vision of what could happen and this and and the hope is that he takes lessons from this changes his life and so that the future changes it's not a prediction it's a possible future. You you think that that is maybe a useful way to think at least in small part to think about what Revelation is about. Well actually in large part I people have found that analogy really helpful and I think that is what Revelation is about it's a warning of what may happen but not was what must happen and yeah Scrooge you know of course Dickens is you know 19th century very

different but that idea of taking someone on a journey as as Scrooge has taken on these journeys out into the past out into the future to see the terrifying scenario of what's going to happen to him if he does not change of life. It's a journey that's very real but he wakes up from it and. And he's been changed by it and I think that's what the Book of Revelation does with its journeys it's taking us into a future that is not mandated by God but a warning and a kind of wake up call. So yeah I do think the dickens analogy is helpful. Well but past the midpoint here we get cars right away and let me introduce Again our guest We're talking this morning with Barbara Ross saying she teaches New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago. She is an ordained minister in the Evan Jellicoe Lutheran Church in America she makes her home in Chicago. If you're interested in reading more of her thoughts on the subject you can look for her book it was published last year titled The Rapture exposed published by Westview press also this weekend on Sunday

2:00 in the afternoon. She'll be talking on the subject at the Art Museum on the campus. So you are certainly welcome to stop by. Well let's get back to our cars here in the next. The line is in champagne and wine too. Well yes I'm very glad to see us speeding up as an evangelical Christian in this regard because I just have a bit of a statement but also a question for you. Something that fascinates me is that you have these multiple Christian discourses in the New Testament that some of which come out of the Book of Daniel in a sort of apocalypticism And then of course much of which is about a got B and love and so on. And I wonder about this current evangelical sort of tendency to believe in the rapture and so on that it is a certain use if not misuse of this. And of apocalyptic apocalyptic discourse so divorced from history. Or we might say overlaid

onto history a kind of notion of America as having a kind of manifest destiny an almost ultranationalist sort of Association of America with the with bringing about good in the world and helping ultimately in the case of George Bush right that he will bring about you know and or help to bring about the ultimate the end of time with his actions basically the Middle East. And I was very happy to see you know that there are evangelical Christians who who not only are supporting the notion of Israel over Palestine but some are living in Palestine in the occupied territories which is absolutely outrageous to me just because I know that there are Palestinian Christians there as well who already live there and I'm sure are not very happy about 50 people suddenly coming over and trying to bring the end of times. But something I was it bothers me. I have students and I teach religion and so on and I was going to ask them when they say God Bless America what do they mean by that. Do they realize they're Christians in about 150 countries. What do you think about. The other Christians were the other Christian thing that I doubted so they always look at me strangely because they

can't understand why the strange phrase God bless America. You know if you're a Christian what does that mean exactly. So I'm just curious what you think about that. Wow. Well I think I agree with you on most your points here it's obvious that you do to treat legend. Yeah I think they well couple of things I would say that I'm trying to reclaim the Book of Revelation to situate it also in the GA pay or love tradition that you're talking about I don't think that the Book of Revelation fundamentally is violent and vengeful. And so I would say that the image of the Lamb and what I call lamp power in Revelation is a kind of reclaiming of a nonviolent message of love for our world and certainly in terms of the view of the nations and America's role I think we have to be very careful about thinking that that our nations somehow have a special place in the biblical story and that that is a triumph over other nations I do think the Book of Revelation has been really misused as a

document of triumphalism and that we have to reclaim the heart of this book which is I would argue a nonviolent and non nationalistic heart. Thank you. Let's go to the next caller. And that would be someone listening this morning in her bed. Line 3 below. Hi. One of the other things that the whole idea that the end times are coming soon. Faxes are a people view of the environment and this came home to me a number of years ago when we had still had our old air conditioner in and needed to be worked on and the company to come do it just reaches just exhausted the freon into the air and I said Aren't you recapturing that this is before it was required. And but I knew the technology was out there and it had been in the news a fair amount and he said Oh I explained to him what the problem was he was totally unaware of it but he said you know the end times are coming and we really don't need to worry about the environment because it's not going to matter in a few

years. I was exit a gas station and Reagan's interior secretary secretary of interior James Watt had a similar. Attitude about the environment it affects all of us. And a very real sense in addition to the you the issues of the Middle East. The other thing that I am thinking as I'm listening to this is that I think about all these little rules that have to be followed for the end times to come according to these groups and I'm thinking this doesn't sound like a deity to me and sounds like a very undignified deity to have to have all these rules if if God exists and is so negative Why do I have to be all these one rule that they have to be followed doesn't seem to me to fit with a the idea of an all powerful and loving dating. So those are my two comments and thanks very much.

All right well Professor. Respond that is in any way you like sir. Great question. I agree with you I think the environment is an area where this kind of escapist thinking is very dangerous because rapture proponents will argue that they have a different place to go to and it can lead to this idea that you can trash this planet because it doesn't matter it's going to be over soon and we've got a different place and I don't think that's the biblical vision I think that we have to lift up the biblical proclamation that God created this world and called it good and that God loves the world and doesn't want us to trash it. So you know it's hard to know how much of this anti environmental thinking goes hand-in-hand with right wing fundamentalist Christianity but to the extent that it does I think we have to really speak out I just was a signer of a letter last week with the National Council of Churches on the environment that we released the same day as the Kyoto Protocol and global warming went into effect and the U.S. was not a signer of those

protocols. I think Christians and people of faith from all traditions need to call our country to be more faithful environmental steward in the world because this is the Biblical notion is that God created this world and we are to be caring for it for a long time to come. Your other question about imprisoning died in a bunch of rules I agree with you on that too I think that the biblical understanding of God is as one who is not bound by a certain script of events whose mind can be changed even when people respond. So I use in the book the. The analogy of the prophet Jonah for example who gave what he thought was a prediction that the Ninevites would be destroyed in just 40 days. But when they repented then God didn't carry out the script it turns out it wasn't a script and God is not bound by these threats and of course Jonah was mad about that but had to be persuaded that God is a God who loves the Ninevites and all their cattle and everybody who lives there

and does not want to destroy the cities. So I think it's a dangerous thing when we put God in a box and say that there has to be a certain sequence of events I agree with you. Let's go next to. Champagne color line one. Hello yes I have a question and you've made a reference to the Middle East I'm wondering if you can draw a connection between the left behind a vision of the End Times and the creation of Christian Zionism and then comment on how that might relate to political discourse views of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Yeah good question. It's true that as Zionism evolved in the 1000 century in 20th century some of it to some degree was hand in hand with the Christian Zionists which are I would say a problematic group of fundamentalist Christians who hold to a pretty absolutist you of the Middle East now myself I mean my denomination the Lutheran church we we would say that we are

scientists we believe in the state of Israel sprit and decide if it is christians. Yes Christian Zionism is a very extremist form that. That I would not support and that I think is very problematic and that is that we have to sort of de-link that from traditional Zionism and and begin to critique some of the policies of the Christian right about the Middle East and historically they evolved together but that doesn't mean that that some of their ridiculous things like the whole idea for example that is that in Jerusalem the Dome of the rock mosque needs to be destroyed and replaced with a rebuilt temple this is very dangerous thinking and I don't think this should be US Middle East policy or any body else. Middle East policy. Sorry if we get what else are you asking. Well I was I was asking whether there is a connection between the left behind a vision of it. If so if that really does impact

political discourse in this country. Yeah I use a book called by Timothy Weber called anxious for Armageddon He's the president. In Memphis of a seminary and he does sort of lay out historically how they evolved together. But they but they don't have to and I use a book by a Jewish scholar called when time shall be no more fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount to name is Christian Kornberg and he's a Jew an Israeli Jew who would argue look even if there have been these historical connections even if all of us have these apocalyptic or dangerous strands of thinking in our own tradition we need to say no to them and I think Christians have to say no to the violent fundamentalist dimension of our tradition he would say Jews have to say no to that in their own tradition and Muslims in there. This doesn't have to be the vision of any of our faiths for the Middle East this kind of extremist violent future. So good question. Thank you. Well I thank you for the call Lets go. On to the next and this would be a line for color in Charleston.

Hello. Yes just a bit of clarification if you can comment make one comment that when Ronald Reagan shook hands with Jim Baker that was quite an event for me but in any case when Bob Woodward interviewed George W. Bush and I watched it but I could not make the connection between Bush's comment that we'll all be dead. And was that a reference to end times evangelical ideas or do you recall that at all. No I don't recall that. I think we don't know with this President Bush to what extent he is. He has bought into the fundamentalist notion that he is a United Methodist. He attends an Episcopal church. We have to give him the benefit of the doubt I would say on the Middle East that he's following the road map which is a moderate position. So I don't know what his own personal

beliefs about the end times are. And I didn't watch the Woodward interview very well from front line and put up the piece too about his evangelical ideas. And it seemed quite fundamentalist to me. But thank you anyway. Your parents are small and certainly members of his cabinet are Karadi and this kind of apocalyptic end time you spoke of. Thank goodness I kind of I think that if I recall what it is that the caller was asking about that it was that the interviewer was asking the president about how he thought history would judge him. And I'm not I don't recall whether specifically this was about the decision to go into Iraq or or whatever it was and I just took that to mean the president saying that. Well we it will take a long time for us to know whether that was right or wrong and that we may indeed be not around any more time. History makes that judgment so I don't think I don't think that he that the president was was meaning to say that that the end of the world

could come in two years but that you know it might take 20 30 40 50 years to find out whether his policy in the Middle East was correct. I guess that's the way I took it. And I don't I don't know that he's made specific connections between his policy in the Middle East and the Bible for example I mean I think that would be a very dangerous kind of thinking but I I haven't heard that from him although certainly many fundamentalists will say that they think attacking Iraq or certain choices are mandated by the Bible but that view is very dangerous and I haven't heard that. Well we're moving into our last 15 minutes here. Again for anyone who might have tuned in I should introduce Again our guest Barbara Ross. She teaches New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago. She is an ordained minister in the Lutheran Church in America makes her home in Chicago and is author of the book entitled The Rapture exposed. It's published by the Westview press if you're interested in reading it and she will be speaking at the Krannert Art Museum this weekend Sunday afternoon at two on the same subject if you're interested in

hearing more from her or perhaps meeting her you can do that and questions are welcome to 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Next caller champagne line to hello. Thank you. My question goes to the Book of Revelations and it's been some years since I studied this but if I recall correctly the author revelations was. In prison at the time of the rioting on an island that was some more or less used as a prison camp for political prisoners and it was suggested at the time that if you read it more as a satirical play that may have been you know put on by the prisoners at that time that it would make make a lot more sense. What you think of that.

Ha I haven't heard that but that's an interesting idea yes. Certainly he's on the island of Patmos probably as a prisoner exile we don't know for sure if he just says he's there for the sake of the LORD whatever he means by that but that's an interesting idea of of bringing out the dimension of satire I mean it's certainly anti-Roman polemic so that it would be a political critique from the compressors made a lot of sense I haven't heard that one specifically but I'm intrigued with that. Thank you I just thought you know maybe another way of looking at it. You know because people are you know they get very religious and it's hard for people I think to do certain objective analysis of you know whatever religious texts if they're you know if it's their founding document for what they believe in. And

sometimes you know you need to get a little more distance and objectivity if you look at it in different ways you can you know maybe see things that you know you wouldn't see otherwise. Well I should say if it's a political satire it also would be a religious critique of Rome because Rome was viewed itself as eternal and as an object of worship. And so I think what what the Book of Revelation is doing is reminding people you know it's not Roman that rules the world Rome's rule is it is just for a very short time. It's a God who rules the world so it would be countering the Roman political imperial view with that with God as the one who's who's ruling the world so to be both political and religious. Well of course I mean at that time and to some extent I fear now there there wasn't really a separation between religion and politics. I mean in terms of rulership. I mean they're all tied up together and and I'm afraid in our current administration they're really tied up together but thank you.

Thank you. Let's go on again to the caller in the next would be in Champaign on line 3. Hello hello. To me it's radio off. It seems to me that this mode of biblical interpretation is very different from traditional interpretation where the Biblical scholar approaches the Bible with the tools of metaphor or symbol. Similarly with the other tools. And this is a very literal interpretation. And it appears to me to run the risk of reducing Christianity to pure superstition. Which are you saying is is too literalistic than the new kind of left behind are ready. Yes I would agree with you and I think that especially with the Book of Revelation it's tough to be a literalist at least in a pure sense because

the primary image of Jesus there is as a lamb. So you're exactly right obviously it's a metaphor Jesus wasn't literally a lamb even though that's how Revelation talks about him but I think right there it's an invitation to experience the Bible at a deeper than literal level that's how I would argue a metaphorical level and I agree with you that we have to enter into those images and in the Book of Revelation is inviting us to see things more deeply than a strictly literalistic kind of level. So I would argue also that even. The people who claim to be literalists can't be that kind of pick and choose literalism that obviously doesn't take some of the images literally like the lamb and others as well so it's your right I think somehow metaphor has gotten a bad name in our culture as if that means that it's not true something but I think the truth of Revelation is deeper than a literalistic level and we have to approach a lot of the imagery as metaphor and as something deeper when we're going to understand it.

There's a very strong mystic strain to the Bible which isn't myth in the popular sense of the word and I think that enters into it too and that's part of the revulsion toward using the tools of the literary critic in understanding the biblical writing that it must be literally true because if it's anything else it's myth than wealth which is misunderstanding. And I agree with you. Well thank you you're very interesting. Well thank you for the call let's go to someone here in Urbana This is Linda. Hello hello I just finished a how Lindsey's book. There's a new world coming available to your Urbana library and he's on. Channel 61 Wednesday night at 7:30. But to answer an earlier callers call why does God allow this. It seems to me that man has been given free will and God does not come down to

destroy the world. But he comes down to prevent the world from being destroyed because the anti-Christ woman foment So a civil war or in this case international war and we have all the tools necessary to literally blow this world apart. So God was in the simile of being a lamb he was a lamb in the sense that he was innocent and came to to sacrifice his life and now he comes back as a lion too. To capture the United Christ and to save the world. Well actually that's where I would disagree with you I don't think that is coming back as a lion and I in fact have a chapter in my book obviously disagreeing with Helen C as well called hijacking the lamb where I think this notion that somehow. This that needs to come back with more sort of a power like a Terminator type conquering lamb.

That certainly hell Lindsey and Temple hand others follow is a dangerous notion I think God came the first time as a lamb and that and the lamb Jesus and that's how God will come again that's how we are to understand power in this world that it's the nonviolent love of God that is is true power not this kind of violent conquering force that Lindsay and Les and others like to talk about so I would disagree with you that there's any indication that God is coming back of the line. How will you stop the anti-Christ do it if he doesn't come back in force the same way he did the first time by giving his life on the cross and sowing and that we believe that the power of God's love for the world is stronger than the power of the anti-Christ. It's not a model of power that is in any way a military or lion like. And I think that's the fundamental message of the Bible is that that transformative power of nonviolent love is how God changes the world.

Or believe he came back in the first instance or he gave his life in the first instance to to reconcile it with perfection which is God the Lord who sent it. Now he comes back in a different mission. Nope I disagree with you. But obviously we have a different perspective on this. You know I don't see any indication in the Book of Revelation that the that the return of Jesus is as long as the lion but the image of the lion is offered in Chapter 5 but it's replaced by the lamb and I think that's how the book wants us to see Jesus and the power that comes through that nonviolent and hungry. We are just about out of time and I'm sorry. I think we're going to have to wrap it up pretty quick here I wonder if you would forgive a personal question about you. I understand that your undergraduate degree was in geology. Yeah right. And your dad was a college physics professor right. Sounds to me only of science as well. And so that's it sounds to me like a person who a young woman who perhaps could have been headed on that track to become a scientist was that something that you at some time had thought about.

Oh absolutely I I still love geology I love the outdoors I love the environment I mean I try to really combine local scholarship with environmentalism and I would love for the natural world at the Lutheran School of Theology here we have a course called the epic of creation that has that brings together top quality scientists from the University of Chicago to talk about things like evolution and the genetic issues and we really work with scientists in an exciting way so I don't see any conflict between the two it's just that my life went one direction but I'm I welcome contacts with science. Well we're going to have to stop for people who are here in and around Champaign-Urbana once again when I mention that our guest Barbara Brosnan will be speaking on the subject that we've been talking about here this morning. This weekend Sunday 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon as part of a sort of in conjunction with an exhibition of art works stretching over a period of several hundred years that all have apocalyptic images in them that will be on display at the museum through April 3rd. So any time you want to stop by you can see that Sunday

afternoon at 2:00 o'clock she'll be talking and that also is open to the public anybody who's interested can attend and of course anyone can look for her book. It's titled The Rapture exposed and it's published by Westview press our guest Barbara Singh is Professor of New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago professor. Thank you very much. Thank you.