Focus 580; Touched With Fire: Five Presidents and the Civil War Battle That Made Them

There have been a number of U.S. presidents who have had combat experience in various of the country's wars. But the Civil War produced the most presidents with combat experience five in all. Those that are well known well perhaps the one that is best known of course would be Ulysses S. Grant. But there were four others Cofield Hasan McKinley and Harrison. This morning we'll be talking a little bit about these men and their experiences in the Civil War with James Perry. He's authored a book titled touched with fire five presidents and the Civil War battles that made them. James Parry began his journalism career at Leatherneck a magazine he also worked for 35 years covering politics for the National Observer and the Wall Street Journal. He is the author of a number of books including this one which is published by Public Affairs and he is joining us this morning by telephone as we talk to questions comments are certainly welcome the number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also have a toll free line that's good anywhere that you can hear us so if it would be

long distance call you can use that number. The calls on us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 again here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 or WRAL. That makes it an easier and then toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Mr. Perry Hello. Thanks very much for talking with us today. These men when they were all Republicans and they served not not exactly one right after the other but they did occupy the presidency during one of these periods an extended period when the White House for most of the time was in the control of under the control of the Republican Party. So as you know today the Gilded Age this period that lasts roughly speaking the guy who bracket the period are essentially Abraham Lincoln on one side and Teddy Roosevelt on the other. And these men were all Republicans they were all civil war veterans.

How key do you think to their having a career in politics and becoming president was the fact that they were indeed Civil War veterans. Imagine doing that. I mean you've been a failure as a civilian and it was to see the world that made him a national figure now. And made him and that's what I would have already would move on to the right as he was I mean not an hour of it sooner is even more dramatic and probably in Grant's case it was so emotional and so wrenching when I've been locked up in American history. The title of the book comes from a quote from Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. who also served in civil war and of course later in life he was a member of the Supreme Court and he said through our great good

fortune in our youth our hearts were touched with fire that's where the title comes from the experience. Parents are so overwhelming that I know that it's true. Thank a veteran from the wars. But it was front and center of the ordinary for them and so some people you can play see combat and this was particularly true in the American Civil War. Well it seems though that obviously you wouldn't argue with the idea that being in combat is a life changing experience. But it too I'm not sure that we would today would be quite so inclined to put it in such a positive light as Mr. Holmes I don't think it is between Republicans and the Democrats. After the Civil War Republicans the party of Lincoln did that. But when the time the Democrats the peace party the

party that opposed the war. Well of course there were Democrats who voted for it but finally break the bloody shirt you know and but it was the Democrats who opposed the war Democrats were traitors. But Democrats didn't as the opposite of because it was terrible trouble to drive down the police. This situation they've taken during the during the war. Well it was but it was just in the chorus and the Republican that because it's the right sad I read their research there are certain things that most of these men share in common and one considering that we're talking about experience on the battlefield that's seems on the usual is that with the exception of Ulysses Grant they were all none of them were professional soldiers they had no military training and absolutely not. And it seemed that they maybe even Grant were very

suspicious of superior officers and they didn't seem to quite trust people who were career military. Well that's the truth. An unknown in American life or tried the three we've had to sort of distrust of professional military people that volunteer army and I know it was good and then let's play an expert. Less powerful so just this one I was amazingly good at the top. Bye bye let's banners and I will search the major bloodiest battles I mean 55 out of them. Armies were commanded by West Pointers So there were a spike was a crucial factor and they're a mess science and famine that officer car at the very very top level and I would like expected the rigid discipline a year where you don't want to you can negotiate with anybody and they're volunteers. But that was routed if I put your eyelashes Rican saboteur they

were then there were there were they had democratic tradition Finnick to uphold and I didn't want to be part of a professional army and the European structure sense. Yes there was a great deal of distrust by the Abscam was progress I mean. But the sub Marshall you've seen in a harsh light and let's ban or to close a lot of leaves you supply little general sense to see it as an instrument. Man I make I mean men trying to establish their reputation so if they could or could use that as a stepping stone to one office once the war was over and around they'd missed out the one that they would have thought that my step out would have been James Garfield who was a devious tricky sort of fellow and have him right. Well when you look at their motivation for wanting to serve how how do you weigh up the the relative contributions of on the one hand

there they're wanting to serve their country. And on the other hand some sort of thought that they might have had that that that experience would help them in their careers. I think the only one that really gave that a whole lot of thought was Garfield and Grant and some of the things were that you remember it was 29 when the war began to cry it was Friday you know it was 38 they were fairly well-developed of a long and valued friend to copulate with the state senate good at the time the war began and so he was already in politics and and he he he certainly had better not. When in fact he was elected as a representative after only two years and the army and he took a seat in Washington in the Alps I was trying to channel uniform. So after two years in the war so obviously its interests were a pretty clever way of kayfabe us about paper in the park and that a very

decent patriotic. There is a politician and soldier any mapping but it was the one that would what he thought was a good year for you. The record of the country a teddy bear he said absolutely as the Commercial Union it did that in mind and he went to war with it and that was sort of McClellan McKinley with running a team in the lobby Can't he was a Brownie enough the man and the only year it was the only real youngster in the whole batch. I like Carson now very well. All right well thanks for your article and. True. Maybe I should introduce Again our guest for anybody who might have just tuned in we're talking with James Perry. He's the author of the book touched with fire five presidents and the Civil War battles that made them. And it is indeed about the war experiences of these five Grant Garfield Hayes McKinley and

Harrison many U.S. presidents have served in combat but the greatest number have come from the civil war. And there are these five if you're interested in taking a look at the book it's out in the bookstores now it's published by Public Affairs Books and I'm sure you can find it. Questions also are welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 4 5 5 1. Another of the things that most of these men shared with the exception of McKinley again because of his age they were all well educated they were all other than McKinley they all had graduated from college. It was coming of age from a Ken Lay was his. His college education really was sort of his time in the US and the Union Army and the rest of the restor were of course a grant went to West Point Garfield was graduated from Williams College.

And you know I'm so very absent in Miami of Ohio. Harry's went to Kenyon and then to Auburn law school they think they were as you say they were well educated. And that that third served them well. Grant as you mentioned one of the things about Grant if you take a look at his life it is is I think it's true as you say one wonders if had it not been for the Civil War and his opportunity to serve in the military whether or not I do yeah we certainly would not have been president United States. He had been unsuccessful and more than once in the business before going into the military and I think that you know you know if you think it's the how of how the world led these men I'm glad you can see that the others might have been governors or U.S. senators are probably not present. But but but but. Grant No no no way that he would have left it to change entirely and. And and how he dealt with

life he would say he was a soldier and that's what he was best at and he was one of the great soldiers of all time. Well how is that then to someone who in other areas of life seem to be so unsuccessful could be successful on the battlefield they wouldn't get it straight it's a complete mystery. I don't think anybody has ever written about granite separate that happened to you Ben. How could he for instance have been such a great general and I muster story and reckoning been such a poor president. Well I think you have to consider that being a general even if you grant was not one of these. One of the Holy Terror channels but he was it would be you know General you know you're just so used to giving orders and no one gave clear or more specific orders on the battlefield than Ulysses Grant theory was who turned back across the road his memoir he's a wonderful writer as well and it's sad how this tradition of rest they go borders. And people

carry them out. Well you've got to be. I covered politics for 35 years and you get to be a politician you give an order. Nothing happens. You know you have to you have to compromise with people you have to have meetings you have to have endless it unless the discussion and politics the SO MUCH different than being a four star general and are there any kind of general for that matter. One of the things that you read about Grant a lot and maybe this is sort of an unfair or a simplification but the thing that you see over and over again the word applied to his approach to approach to military strategy is aggressiveness. I bet he was not a man that was going to stand up from the very beginning that he was an unbelievably aggressive and he and I don't at that stage in the war when that is one of the great of like Johnson for the mater was not aggressive at all MCCLELLAN I mean now that we do you a

little trouble. Finding aggressive generals but I never had an exotic bout grant because. I only took him through two battles an assassin too well to take a few bad modest first battle which he was extremely aggressive even though he was outnumbered by the US and by the Confederates and came very close to being defeated it has barely escaped and then he went on a trip for a tannery and Dowson and and it was very aggressive and Donaldson he wasn't even supposed to go over and take the idol somebody marched the tribe miles across or 12 miles separated the two ports are to craft a proton will salute them if he didn't capture the Confederate commander 15000 about 15000 manner. That's a further civil war that's a lot of land and a curse and that was that the Confederate commander wanted to negotiate to surrender and he said no he demanded unconditional surrender and that became a that became famous a day. Conditional

surrender Grant became a sort of a. But everyone brought up in the laps of the nationals which made it very nice to go here. He became a hero at that point and that is my point is that after Fort Donelson city went on to more another victory it was almost inevitable that he would eventually go on to the White House. Then as I guess also one of the things for which he is often criticized and people sit around it and do become armchair generals. They talk about his his recklessness and perhaps his willingness to sacrifice men and the reason that he was successful they'd say was simply because he was willing to see so many of his men die. The truth is in the civil war. Most general those who did suck huge casualties I mean we saw huge casualties. Davina did what Frank wanna do. Well listen

that you resulted in the mass slaughter. It was an extremely bloody war and I don't know that Grant was any any bloodier and his pursuit of it than many other generals but that you're right that is the reputation that he has become a bit over one famous battle where he meets with his worst mistake in the last he gets a lot of it comes from there. Our guest in his part of focus ave them again is James Perry we're talking about those American presidents who served in the Civil War there were five of them were produced more presidents than any other American wars. He's written about this in his book touched with fire and here the men were talking. But our Grant Hayes Garfield McKinley and Harrison and questions are certainly are welcome we do in fact have somebody here ready to go. You're in Champaign Urbana. The number is 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. And also we do have a toll free line that's good

anywhere you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We do have caller here to start us off and they are calling on a cell phone so we'll get right to them on line 1. Hello. Well I think well I mean I'm no more than an armchair military historian myself but I think that there's been in some sense an organized smear campaign against Grant. As a general. I mean during during the war there was clearly an organized smear campaign against him. In that you know people claim that he was constantly drunk and all this other stuff. And. But. I mean I think people think it's easy to underestimate the problem that the union had compared to the Sioux the south the south had to defend the union had actually conquered the South and that's going to mean lots of casualties. That's just how it is and I don't want to I don't want to excuse anything but

I just you know. Could it have been any different wall on Yahoo house. Could you care to count. Well you're the grammar Grandpa had to take the offensive. Good riddance fight he and leave no matter what it believed was the right was to try to prolong the war going up so that the North would get so tired of it that they would negotiate a peace settlement. But that's right you're right it is. It's probably isn't it just to break those problems. SATs is going to be very costly in terms of men lost and the drinking problem I think is much exaggerated and I did a movie or book called about the press to cover the war called a Bohemian brigade and I read it that involved a newspaper reporters with Grant of the once celebrated incident when the did get truck but that's the only the only example that most anybody can find in the civil war.

Granted and it's perhaps too much and this was a play we took a boat up the Ripper and shot into. Everyone tended to drink a good bit in the sense that the Civil War though not here at all our top whiskey drinkers back then. Right you know I would be interested. Much as I admired her and I would be interested to hear about some of the other gentleman on your list. Marilyn Manson summoner. For example when I was a very quiet sickly young man who grew up in Ohio but he went up to the committee with the 23rd Ohio now that their amazing thing is that there is a civil war not a regiment about a thousand men attend the 23rd Ohio had two future presidents in it and amazing that they had AIDS and it had become like this was it was the commander and much admired by its men greatly revered by them and very good

very and very understanding of out of command volunteers. But instead he sat with facts after absolutely shit. You assume he was a he was a really wonderful vigorous and aggressive rock criminal and their commander regimental commander and I won not to be known. Him before can believe that. But to hear him he had it summit some of these battles they yeah he had distinguished himself by his bravery his wounded four times and so once bad one seriously Asop Mountain which was a battle that proceeded emptied in one bloodiest day of the war and and he was left third left to die on a battlefield a nurse or Ronnie dragged away and treated by the regimental surgeon who fortunately was his brother in law is married to his wife. There's a brother's wife Lucy and he survived but. But he was he would say he was a serious

fighting criminal and and and and the threat of regimental commander is it that the North needed most and so you have to be a me button ups be amazed by pride by the ferocity with which he prays. He from cinema one with the skill with which a year commanders regimen sometimes a larger unit a brigade. So that's that is not some item. It's interesting a lot as he was so devious and so tricky and he was probably the smartest of the bunch. I don't grant he was the only one to command an army in a field I was a very small one that was in the big sandy valley and eastern Kentucky a wonderful campaign against a staffie and confederate figure named Humphrey Marshall a 300 pounder West Pointer and I just stopped. I propped him up for him and eventually chased him out of my back into Virginia it was a great success and I got some of the cuts and I

got a good deal about city at the time he went on from there to be oh to trances chief of staff and was with them a check a moderate and distinguished himself there so he saw some real combat. I just wanted to do a little Sure yeah definitely. But Kennedy was so young adman and he was as I say this with the twenty third Ohio he could and he was he was he he was he'd been subjected to could write clearly and without making a lot of most of these people couldn't spell very well or write very clearly but he caught. So you became at the commissary sergeant he became quartermaster and got some behind the lines functions he was famous for a good bit of fighting they had to give him credit for that but emptied out my debts which after eight have been wounded hadn't a TDMA the 23rd I became trying. That flap problem became kind of rapid kind of clown or the nerd herd had nothing to eat nothing to drink and they were in pretty poor shape so McKinley had seized tell you

to get into horses and got out of work for another young private name and the status stashed on a I'm a wagon all sorts of rations and hot coffee and all sorts of things and rushed it rusted across the battlefield across through shot and shell across the battlefield. Two words run were two of the 23rd I was in there they were flooded them and and when one of our old one only old sergeant said God bless the bloody and McKinley always said those are the kindest words you've ever heard there's a lot of so he became famous for that dash across the battlefield and on in with others. Only a couple of all of all these all these people you know small talk and rigid disciplinary and was never really his troops. But finally at the end of the war some great deal of fighting. Sherman's march through Atlanta and he commanded the 70th Indiana and I finally saw a lot of fighting

much more than is much more than his grandfather what we're going to marry an upright president Henry Harrison ever seen and he was very conscious of his family traditions and family history and he slaps them ASAP. So a lot of action in that primal campaign but marching to Atlanta and did some good work. So they are all a very good thing. It's remarkable sometimes when you read about the battlefield exploits of particular people who who became well known for that throughout that on the on the one hand sometimes you have to applaud their courage and that was something that came to be recognized on the other hand sometimes perhaps you look at what they did you think that that wasn't terribly smart and that in fact they could just as easly headed an executive they just could just have easily been killed it could have turned out to have been a disaster rather than ending up with with fame no doubt. You know there's always some of that exposure. And the McKinley

case I suppose when he first the bloated up red wagon had no idea he was going to come under quite sort of heavy fire and getting to where he was going but once he started he couldn't very well turn around so you know we went out he did some other time for the map and her dashed across battle fields and almost got Chad did the same thing you had to check America and that it became very famous he went to his commanding officer and wanted to sort of a pot roast Prancer and indeed the troops Thomas the rocket the famous rock of Chickamauga was putting out and it was it was important to find out I was doing and how long he could alone he could stay in his position so I wrote it with one of these famous gallops across the battlefield he did the same thing and famous poem was written about it with all of his campaigns this material course was widely used to by you or anybody you had to some of the combat experience to being sure let everybody know about it.

Let's start with some. Else we have a listener in Chicago our toll free line one for the morning. You said that Hayes was one of the ones that you admired the most and if I remember correctly reconstruction and it under Hey. So my question is when you look at these five fit as presidents What was their policy towards reintegrating the freed slaves and to society or did they have any. Because I know Lincoln sort of had a plan of hoping to repatriate a great number. So there wouldn't be that issue at all. So did any of the cotton and develop a policy and I guess the back of my mind I keep wondering how could such a decent person pretty much condemn a whole group of people to run there is that period in history. But I'll tell you the way you know he he direction self-reproaches is highly questionable whether you actually want to or not but maybe Rick Perry wouldn't want to rule Greenspan for

so that. I remember Grant's second term there was a single person know what the White House who gave a damn about a black man and that's a terrible damning indictment. But probably not entirely true but pretty close to every ender Grant's second term. The efforts to. To protect and encourage the newly freed slaves to survive the news 11 to family. Michael Wright Confederate States had pretty much collapsed the reconstruction effort to influence the military was almost over by the time that that Hayes became president and it is not then that this is not a pleasant burden for her an encouraging chapter in the history of America what was done by these presidents but they simply figured that there's nothing

they could do when they were in the country was moving on to other things. There was no political push by anybody to force the year and the freedom for the year for the year for the newly freed slaves surveyed and it's not a happy and not happy part of the history. No it's kind of brings up a point that you hear again and again when people discussed of a war. I have one comment perhaps even on this show not too long ago that there were two movies made Cold Mountain and a general one. The issue of slavery was was really almost not brought in at AH and you will almost have to wait it the history is always told the history of the future of the United States the Federation or is the issue a moral issue of slavery. And I guess my question is What do you think these five men were fighting for. What are some of the fiber men that you find in most

letters Civil War letters from Union soldiers. It was to save the Union. They flew up to save the Union and that was overwhelmingly their passion now. And you find lots of letters said the last of Northern soldiers were not at all good were not friendly to the notion of freeing the slaves and the and the same sense that with these five men some of them felt strongly about slavery Garfield Adderley on when he was at one college and become a very much an abolitionist and and it had had that strongly. But he really did good to the point I make is what they what they put what they fought for what they thought they were fighting for was the whole notion of preserving the Union not allowing the 11 states to break away to form a new nation. Thank you for that. And that's OK. Thank you. Thank you for the call we are now Pastor midpoint of this first

hour focus 580 talking with James Perry. He is the author of the book touched with fire five presidents and the Civil War battles that made them it's published by Public Affairs Books and did indeed looks at the we're experiences of these five men they were all Republicans Grant. Garfield Harrison Hayes and McKinley. And as I've said a couple times and certainly makes the point his book that well many people who have gone on to the presidency have had experience in combat. Most of them the greatest number that these five had their experiences during the Civil War and the questions are were certainly welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 1 4 5 5. I think in the book you talk about the fact that as far as Grant was concerned about himself he became president because he deserved to be president. He probably did you know that that was just for him based on what he had done that seemed to be just the natural step that the problem was that while

he certainly was a good soldier and he knew how to be a soldier he did not know how to be president. Right. And I don't think anybody actually when they you know me welcome to that office. But I think he had any and he had any. What direction the country would take for them is Prez. With these other men they are not men that we think of as being in the top tier of U.S. presidents and certainly at this period the Gilded Age is at a time that we think of being notorious for corruption in politics. Rather how we're we're any of the other of them do you think really well suited to be the president or new to be president. Fascinated So we really don't know but droplet only been in office for four months when he was assassinated and what time you've had some problems with the apartments. But if he was proud of the law and if I

thought he would It was sad that he could write it in Latin with one hand and in Greek which he got all at the same time I'm not sure this is absolutely absolutely verifiable but he was right and he was also devious and I make the point that sometimes being smart and being devious are combined to make a pretty good president. I mean you think of a lot of the facts with Franklin Roosevelt. For example here he said we don't we eat a mystery we don't know what kind of president would have been if he didn't get a chance to serve out his term. And apparently I mean McKinley becoming has it all once particularly right it's under the to the modern world or arena by leading a sin and the Spanish image by leading the nation especially by being the commander in chief and leading that leading America into the end of the victorious Spanish-American War and so you could say it's good he

gets some credit for him for doing some important things the others really didn't do anything that's absent it out for nothing that was memorable except for tensions to lots of veterans who didn't actually deserve them. And the others didn't really much have a chance. Let's go and we'll talk with someone else here locally line one Urbana Hello. Yes I was wondering if Mr. Martin would consider a sequel was the effect of the presidents who served to release more in the service during World War Two and our subsequent presidencies. I count six. I was now a Nixon for Johnson Plus the return of a good combat is the yacht I was always one I've heard that there's irony. Actually I use Sockeye by two robbers who served in the civil war. ANDREW JOHNSON I view actually was that I was headed but with a general and I thought it was actually was a general as well as I never saw a sad case for tape to parallel in terms of the number of troops who

reckon the service and the impact of them. So I'm damned if what I did in the stand now could be such a combat and and the latter bursts combat's are only 400 on an aircraft carrier it's all out of combat. Kerry Kennedy of course but Kennedy of course. Kennedy was sir yes or ship was sunk. And Johnson it was claimed that one flight where you had got the Silver Star. I didn't do it I mean I was actually traveling with him once and then a conch. We went up through to the despite where he took a this flight that that involved was supposed to be a fairly routine bombing run and actually ran into some flak and they came and they could still read if I gave him a silver star for this for that. And I remember your ludicrous performance that was it. Yes he saw he was in the Navy saws all that one. That one the red one flight the truck right. Well thank you for an interesting conversation line things. Well that really does raise the question and I think I'm in. In promoting the

program did indeed make that parallel between the way that we think about this group of people that whoever coined the phrase has come to be thought of as the greatest generation those people who served in World War Two and a lot of certainly a lot of them went on to become important in American and American politics. Do you see that some parallels between that though the men of that generation who served in World War 2 and those who served in the civil war like to think that but you know Brokaw like that wrote this book about the Great or just great generation World War Two veterans well the Civil War veterans really nor the veterans especially well in the south of course but that's not the norm in veterans so I like to think of themselves as the great generation a done a great service that saved the union and I think because I think that that's the for the poor interpretation what they did. I like to think of them that way and I think that we're in this boat. Let's talk with a caller in Belgium by Danville line number forward. Hello and good morning. I wonder if your tax

or current administration many of these tunnels have to work a lot of real running around doing well. Yeah and believed and we're not at all or any of these presents a dream where I feel possibly not on fabric you're going to settle for being corrupt themselves a grant from Apple a lot of these of these robber barons and you start dinner when someone you know to bully Chim Chim Fisk and Gould and all that bunch but let alone a cyber savvy it was if he should have done it it was it was bad judgment on his part. But no one's ever said he was crap another 20 did it 3 Did you know the city on the grid building a city hop on to your arch across the pond we paid for our stuff you know the corruption was there just to just argue all over the place at all levels. Arthur was corrupt I mean he'd been.

He'd been next after customs and words in New York which was the biggest biggest boom doggle political to the right tribe in the country and slowly but he turned up to be honest the working president everything was going to. Why not get on it. I'm really more for states rights than it was for slavery slavery came in a tractor and an item later on a woman one as well. I expected that these five men that there was the motivation leading motivation for all five of these men was first saving the union and they did it you just read that over and over again in all their letters and we have a lot of their letters which is wonderful but hell if we have them and it that that was the that was the principal motivation there was that they wanted

to prevent these 11 states from breaking away and and ripping up the union and that's what the that's what they want to do for a bully. Some facts from you about it some did not. It was not a universal Union was universal thing. Thank you so much for All right thanks for the call again others are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 1. That again I guess we're preoccupied with the issue of political corruption but it's something that you can't quite get away from and you wonder in these case of these men what do you begin to question their judgment. Because they had some questionable friends. Grant I suppose Grant seemed to be the worst. Would you say that that somehow they were not good judges of character outside of the military sphere or was it a fact that they they were simply associating with the people who were the movers and shakers of the time which is something that politicians have always done.

I don't know. That's a good question. Whether they were more attracted to scoundrels and rogues than other people it I mean Washington was filled with scoundrels and rugs. I mean the Congress was filled with scoundrels and rugs. You could be embroiled scoundrels and rugs you know in that period. I did them very well because that was the way it was the way the life was and every city would have had a political machine in corruption so it was it was a crime when you had to deal with. People of consequence who made decisions you Austin and that everybody would be upset at least at some point. Well it puts rogues and scoundrels because such are the people that will help the jobs. I don't know how you can the president or anybody examiner could have avoided at least there is so she ation with people of her for less than honorable intentions.

As time goes along it seems to be less and less likely that we will have a president who's had combat experience when running when we do have yes we do have one rather than crowd running there about that combat experience and can tell you I well look into who knows what happened in New Hampshire today. Kerry allegedly had there and he had. Lot of combat experience. It certainly he did. And I would we would certainly single him out as having that qualification if you think that I think it worked for him I think this is I think I think the decisive moment and then as an all political writer now decisive moment was when that that that that sort of served time about what that meant in Viet-Nam showed up in Iowa. And they haven't seen each other in years and this is the fellow we've rescued and saved in this very emotional meeting of the

two. And I you know that that deeply moved me I mean just watching that. But here it is these two men that you know I had had served our country and there and been through some terrible times together and there they were meeting for the first time since it since those days it was I bet it had I would have no doubt that it had that and that and I said so as a lingering effect on the boat that's going on right now. Well it gets at it I guess the question I was thinking about was whether having had that experience whether we think that it's a that's a good a good experience for someone we want to be president in terms of shaping their character but here you're talking about something different you're talking about public perception and the fact that apparently people still make them a better place. Yeah you're asking really right. Yes I'm not sure I'm not it doesn't probably get there been you know we've had three great shuttle presidents we've had Washington Jackson and I

think our three great generals and all of all of substantial presidents at least is try and certainly concede that all three of them either sit. You know Franklin Pierce I mean what kind. Well let's put it into service. What could have been president. Well it's a mixed bag I mean sometimes that I think Americans Abbotts making. Appreciation for for men of same combat because that demonstrates to them a that they're patriotic. Beat it they probably have some experience with discipline and you know it that's worked it does work. That's work it doesn't necessarily make a good president you're quite right. I mean it is but no way we can tell them what makes a good president. Well they're there and then suddenly added people we never would have guessed would be the big good presidents. I mean Harry Truman who would have

guessed Harry Truman would turn out to be sometimes right it is our fourth or trip greatest president. I mean who would never have guessed that but that it would heat coursing service in World War One. Well let's talk with someone else we have another Chicago listener here lie number four. And I'm sorry I turned and wait. So I do cut the benefit of your description of the of the people who became president or who were generals. But what I want to do is take issue with the view that you have regarding polish the following way. Oh. Oh. The problem was to actually control the party up I'm told. Well I would prefer not of the people. Controlled the Republican Party was the problem. This

explains all the corruption in the UN and beyond up to the bush. But the Republican Party got going. The following ranks of ministration afterwards made a deal with them. The former slave owner who wanted to control things down there but control the economy of the United States. But the Republicans the Republicans. But from a Republican wealthy. Well the robber baron suddenly got the run of the year the run of the country and the struggle. The Southern Democrats and southern Democrats a former slave owner. But control the stopping of the tree by control Congress ought to do is repeat Arrow's biography of Lyndon Johnson and you've got a fairly decent picture of what was going on during that time.

Oh it was actually. Well but that's the way the robber barons were going corruption were more widespread. I don't think the Republicans well the Republicans are of course but there are but they are I mean they didn't tell us about Camelot you know that it was a progressive and the vice president and the people who controlled controlled the party. And well yeah right sorry I forgot to put the political leader from Ohio. She got a snake not butt but might hear a little rock there are much closer to the puddle we might have to take away. Didn't want to miss President Clinton well but they got him and heard he referred to the powers of the presidency and as generally conceded to be one of our one of our

very superior presidents and I think that's a that's that's a that's fair to say. But he wasn't part of that group of the Robber Barons although you're right that he was a was a wonderful accent. We're deeply suspicious of him and I thought he was a reformer and and very rare in New York for a certain extent at least he writes. Well the point I did seems that the UN the caller are in agreement least on that point that he was I think he's worried. One of the lot of the powers that be at the time never never had the intention or never expected that Teddy Roosevelt would have would have that being president the United States. Well after after already at Roughrider Isn't it pretty Maybe if you see this great frame on the battlefield. And leading the Roughriders and you know in Cuba and. I read about I remember reading or writing a book in Washington in the Boston New York a place I thought that after it after it came back from Cuba said that he was afraid that

actually nothing he could do to keep Roosevelt from being governor and very funny went from there to being president. But with Kremlin audible once again because he becomes such a national hero we are coming down the point here we just have a couple of minutes left maybe three or four minutes and I guess I I want to stick with the the idea of the book and that is what it is we perhaps end up learning about these men knowing about their experience in the Civil War and how that if if we if all we knew about them was what how they performed as president had States that maybe that would be it would be an incomplete picture of who they were that's a problem. That's exactly what I wrote the purpose that that was the most important here is a very lives were not the years they spent as in the White House it was present the United States. And that is exactly true. And the most important here is that there lies really the timespan of the boats and below that.

Lincoln Lincoln Lincoln the soldiers and the civil war and that and that and that and the contribution they made to saving the Union. And that's true I think that they would like to have told them no. The story that I think I have told him in this book do you think that they felt that that I had little that was the hype that was absolutely a high point of that that sometimes say that hassock like to be called me Kelly I always like to be called Major mechanically and and I went to all of the unions and encampments of the Civil War veterans. Half an hour more than you probably interview others absolutely was devoted to doing everything he could for infractions and and and and and and promoting the cause of the of the Red Army the Republican the veterans of the war were veterans in. And veterans organizations important forces in politics.

Absolutely you know what you know there are a million and a half veterans and their families and their friends and associates became a hugely powerful force in American politics. Welled up right up. And then even into McKinley's time. And you all are beginning to fade away by that. But yes the Gravitar probably did see where I was. Well technically neutral or so it was always almost always. But you were you were on the side of the Republican preference for the Republican candidates for president who are a very powerful force. Well I think that we will have to stop because we come here to the end of the time for people who are interested in reading more on the subject you can look for the book we have been talking about it's titled touched with fire five presidents and the Civil War battles that made them by our guest James Perry. You might be interested in one of his other books his most recent is a book about the

reporters who cover covered the civil war and that book is titled A Bohemian brigade. The book touched with fire is published by Public Affairs Books by our guest James Perry and Mr. Perry thank you very much and we appreciate that.