Focus 580; Thread of the Silkworm: the Story of Tsien Hsue-shen and the Chinese Missile Program

And this is focused 580 is our telephone talk program. Good morning my name is Jack Brighton glad you could be listening during this first hour of focus 580. We're going to be talking with Iris Chang. She's the author of a very new book just out and titled thread of the silkworm. The book is a history of one man Dr. CN Hugh Shen who was among the scientists who developed the first missiles for the United States he was a pioneer in aeronautics and he was a great mathematician and theoretician taught at MIT and Cal Tech. And during World War Two was instrumental in bringing about the space age for the US. Oddly enough shortly after the war was over and tensions began rising with the communist world. Shortly thereafter he was accused of being a communist and deported back to China where he became the father of the Chinese missile program as well. Very interesting story. And Miss Chang who is by the way a graduate of the University of Illinois journalism program was the first person to fully research this story and to write it in a

book length treatment. And again that book is thread of the silk worm and it is published by Basic Books. As we talk if you have questions you can join the conversation by calling us around Champaign-Urbana the number is 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. That's 3 3 3 W I L L if you match the letters with the numbers and toll free anywhere you're listening around Illinois Indiana or wherever else that number is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 going around Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 W I L L and eight hundred to two to oil. Iris thanks for joining us. Thank you. I thought maybe we could start by asking you to talk a little bit about Dr. C-n C-n HEU fusion. Thank you. Who is the why is he significant for both United States and China. Well Dr C and Hu Shan is a Chinese aerodynamicist. He was born in China to a family with a long

tradition of a silk merchant DRI and he eventually came to the United States on a Boxer Rebellion scholarship in 1935 studied at Cal Tech and MIT and eventual became a potage a of theatre of Carmen's theater Von Karman was one of the top aerodynamicists in the country at the time and after China fell to the communists in one thousand forty nine doctorate C-n was a professor at Cal Tech at the time he was reaching the peak of his career in the United States when he was suddenly accused of membership of the Communist Party and kicked out of the country and he later on was deported against his will to China. Only after spending five years under virtual house arrest in the United States and his stories important because he eventually revolutionized the Chinese ballistic missile program and initiated development of the first

Chinese satellite and infamous Silkworm missile. Right. Hence the title threat of the source Ackley right. Well let's start talking CoreLogic a little bit about his life he grew up in China in very much advantage circumstances. That's correct. His father was a minor education official and he was one came from a wealthy family. And he stuck at CNN was born in Iowa and spent a few years in this town which was famous as a you know a beautiful resort close to Shanghai. And shortly afterwards he he went to Beijing to to study at a exclusive school for the gifted at the time. And he had not only the advantage of the special school the Beijing number one experimental primary school but he also had the advantage of studying under a father who was pretty much

at the forefront of educational theory at that time in China. And the school was very competitive. Can you talk a little bit about how it was that students were admitted to they had to take a rigorous test. IQ tests were just beginning to be introduced in China and that's essentially what they had to do. They were screened for instance they had to solve minor math problems. They had to demonstrate a rudimentary ability to write and read and more importantly when he went to the school he was encouraged to think and explore his own. It wasn't just a situation where he was forced to memorize a lot of facts which would may have been the case in many other schools of the time. So he had all the advantages growing up and then went to one of the top engineering schools at the time. Joel Tong University in Shanghai where he studied under professors who were

educated in the United States primarily from MIT. And so it was no surprise that in one thousandth 35 when he did receive the exclusive Boxer Rebellion scholarship which was very similar to either Marshall's or Rhodes scholarship that he would go to MIT and study at study aeronautical engineering at the time you're an oracle engineering was was really a very new field. Exactly. You know and he was. And there were very few scholars in fact an MIT one would think you know always at the forefront of engineering and and technology and so forth. But even there the sort of theoretical fundamentals were just sort of being explored. That's right. The field was at was in its infancy and Dr. CN was not at the time when he was just a graduate student was not very happy at MIT after just one year he left and sought out Theodore Von Karman who was at the time one of the leading theoreticians

in aeronautical engineering he had been trained in Germany and he had been a protege of Pantulu it pronto who was considered one of the greatest aerodynamicist in Europe at the time. And it was there that Dr. CN really began his rigorous theoretical training in it. In aeronautical engineering and it's interesting also to note that when he was at Cal Tech he became part of a group of young men who called themselves the Suicide Squad because they were performing elementary experiments with rockets small rockets that they would shoot off in the Arroyo Seco near a Kel-Tec. Actually this was the royal Saeco means a riverbed and this was a dry river bed where they had conducted though some of these experiments and they had been banished to that area because some of their earlier experiments had shattered laboratories that Keltec and and they were called on

campus the Suicide Squad. And it later turned out that this group. It was the foundation of what would later become the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena and the Suicide Squad was basically just an extra curricular you know young group of young grad students all in their 20s I would say yeah. And at the time I think it's interesting to sort of you know situate all this aeronautics in you know aircraft aircraft technology was you know basically by planes and yes rockets had not yet essentially been invented. Oh and actually at that time people academics in particular scorn the idea of studying rocketry as a means of space travel. It's too much of a buck's Rogers sort of thing. It was considered science fiction in fact. As a result when CNN some of his other

colleagues at Cal Tech began to receive funding from the Army ordinance to build some of these rockets on a larger scale they used the euphemism Jet Propulsion because they didn't want to use the word rockets. It was it was really not taken very seriously at the time. Doctors Yeah at this time he had he well he he got his doctorate at Cal Tech. That's correct. And he was a you know is it fair to say universally recognized as like almost a genius in the area that he was exploring. Well genius maybe. It may be stretching it I mean I would say that the time however that he was one of the leading aerodynamicists of the field he certainly made a number of important contributions both in the field theoretically and in areas that would have direct military applications. For

instance when Dr Sian was a student at Cal Tech he worked on a very important paper with theatre Von Karman that resulted in something called pressure correction formula which I believe later was used for decades by engineers in the design of subsonic aircraft. Dr CN also worked on a number of important papers in the areas of buckling and fluid dynamics. He was a generalist so you know throughout his life in the United States he would work on papers that had really really covered a wide variety of subjects. He wrote a very important paper with super aerodynamics which I think was one of the first to discuss the theory behind high speed flight in very high altitudes. He also wrote a breakthrough book in engineering cybernetics. And during the

war when he was in Pasadena he was not only a section chief and in JPL but he really worked on some of the earliest missiles for the United States. For instance I believe he had worked on the missiles called The Private A in the private af. I think the private A was the first rocket in the United States with a solid propellant engine to perform successfully most of the black corporal which I think was the first device to. To leave the earth's atmosphere. And so this was definitely work that was at the forefront of aerodynamics the time and space technology. His work in dynamics took very much a mathematical sort of angle. Yes it was extremely theoretical as opposed to the more you know strictly practical approach that had been taken in building previous aircraft. Yes and that was one of the reasons why he left MIT. He felt at the time

that it was much too practical. For instance there was a real shop environment that dominated. MIT at the time even though it was at the top engineering school. Probably one of the best if not the best at the time. But the emphasis was on building the airplanes in fact some of the students back in 1930 536 were actually building you know by planes or working on just other projects by hand. Cal Tech was more CN sooting because it was more theoretical in nature and it was marked with rigorous mathematical training which was imported from Germany through Carmen. And so he sort of disdain that sort of you know. You know engineering by this you your pants approach Absolutely. You see that repeatedly in his writings Yeah. And as a teacher he also took a very harsh sort of you know theoretical approach.

Yes he really enjoyed working with students who were the best he didn't seem to have any use for students who were not the best. So we could say that he really wasn't the most effective teacher. He was known as a person on campus who was rather aristocratic elitist and in general he was not that well liked either am I to York. Let's talk about the period during which the trouble really began. He he had obviously he did have I mean as you say he did have some problems with people because of his sort of attitude and and the you know the sense of high standards and so forth. But he really was a very cultured person in certainly interested in a wide or wide range of things including you know politics he followed what was going on music certainly music before what was going on in China which of course was you know hadn't been undergoing a war with Japan. And then during World War Two you know. Obviously that continued in after a war to the war between the nationalists and the Communists.

What sort of led him into this this whole argument over whether he was or was not a communist. How did that all come about it all started during the years of the Great Depression. Dr. CN when he was a single man when he was a graduate student at the time he fell in with a group of other academics that Keltec for instance physicists and biologists many graduate students like him who would meet regularly to listen to music or to talk about politics. And this was a left leaning group at the time and there were many discussions about the future of communism and this was very popular at the time because people during the Great Depression really wondered if capitalism was doomed to fail. And it was a very chic concept and was by no means unique to Cal Tech. What Dr. sand didn't realize at the time was that his participation in these. These meetings and these

parties would eventually haunt him 15 years later in 1950 he unexpectedly received a visit from the FBI at his office. By this time he was a professor and he was given one of the top posts academic posts in the country in his field. He was the Robert Goddard professor of jet propulsion at Cal Tech he was also the director of the jet propulsion center not to be confused with the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and he was well on his way to becoming a celebrity he had. He had made national news by predicting that. You know a rocket liner of his design could. It was theoretically possible that you know one could travel between New York and and Los Angeles within an hour he doso made headlines by predicting that a trip to the moon would be possible within 30 years. And so he had just been in that post for one year when the FBI visited him and and asked if he had ever been a member of the

Communist Party. And as it turned out one of his friends from that group Sidney one bomb was revealed to be the head of a communist cell which which apparently was was the. That very group that he had attended. For social purposes. Now whether Dr. C. I knew that this was a Communist or not is is still unknown. But according to my you know talks with those people who were members. It's not clear that he even knew that this was a cell communist cell at all they often kept the secret from the people who who had gone there for refreshments and to listen to music and doctor to see and listen the info on fortunate position of having recommended Dr. Sidney one bomb for the position of mathematician at JPL. And that's what links the end to wind bomb. And so they took they revoked a security clearance and Dr Sian was devastated by that

and it set off a whole chain of events from that point on which eventually led to his his death partition from the United States. So his security clearance was revoked not because you know it was proven that he was a communist or or you know anything had been resolved with regard to the allegation. But just simply because the allegation had been made. That's correct. They never had any concrete evidence that he was the communist. It was just it was just rumor. They they did not have like a single card or any kind of stationery with his name on it. You know I think that it was first of all that link with with one bomb that started it off. But at the time they that was enough I guess to just revoke his security clearance. And but that was not what caused him to get into deeper trouble. It's a very long story. But I could in summary doctor

see and had panicked when he discovered that his security clearance was revoked so this is significant because 90 percent of the work that he was in charge of was on classified fronts right. Definitely 90 percent at JPL. This meant that he would no longer be able to consult for the Jet Propulsion Laboratory which as you know he had a role in founding. He was also doing some very important. Consulting work for the Aero jet Corp. which was a company started by his friends a commercial entity that also grew out of JPL. But he could have remained at Cal Tech as a professor and continue doing his theoretical work. There was no problem him doing in his doing so but unfortunately Dr C end at that moment was at a crossroads. He China had fallen to the Communists. He was receiving some very mysterious and unusual letters from this father that he began to suspect were written under the influence of the communists in China. Letters that were urging him to go home and to service

you know to serve the homeland. And. And he had at the time expressed concern. You know that this was the attempt to lure him back. But he did feel in the extreme loyalty to his father and and he had felt guilt over not you know spending more time with him and and especially at a moment when his father was about to undergo a very important and very significant stomach operation. So at that point Dr. CN decided to go back to China for an indefinite period of time. And that is the beginning of you know a whole series of troubles for him. Let me just take a moment to reintroduce. We're talking this morning with I was chatting. She's the author of the book thread of the silkworm the book is the story of Dr. C. and Hugh Sherman who was among the scientists who started basically the space age in the United States was deported in 1955 back to China where

he originated and went on to become the father of the Chinese missile program. And as we talk if you would like to ask questions you can certainly call us the number around Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. And toll free anywhere you're listening that number 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. When he received the visit from the FBI asking if you'd ever been a communist and this is you know a lot of people may not realize or may not remember or he weren't around during this period of course how the slightest suspicion could turn into just you know a terrible snowball sort of effect in casting a one in greater and greater suspicion and they were blacklists you know Yet scientists were completely ruined by that. In fact when I went to the Cal Tech archives to look at some the correspondence from. Some scientists who are in that discussion group some of them were considering leaving science forever retiring to their beach homes or just going into a completely different field where security

clearances or security matters wouldn't be much of an issue. Some people actually were forced to leave. Frank Oppenheimer was a member of that group Frank Oppenheimer was the brother of Robert Oppenheimer. I believe that he eventually became I think either a high school teacher or was a rancher in Colorado as a result of these accusations. There was there were a number of heartbreaking stories in fact Sidney one bomb himself came to a pretty depressing and he was the cues to perjury. For lying on his application that he had never been a communist and was actually sentenced to prison for years when he was released he was not employable. He ended up having to work at a little girl's clothing store for years. It was a very sad story. But you see Dr. CN was I think concerned that his future would be in jeopardy in the United States. And so he also was a very proud man and extremely arrogant and something like this never happened to

him before. And he was determined to go back to China. And people at Kel-Tec were trying to talk him out of it and then they arranged for him to go to Washington D.C. where he could probably try to work this out before you know the I think the employment industrial employment review board. And at the time he he when he went to Washington D.C. He had a conversation with Dan Kimball who was that the time I think the under secretary of the Navy under Truman and he used to be an executive at Aero jet and so knew duct work intimately. Now Kimball when he learned that CN was even considering leaving China immediately put into motion a series of events that would prevent Sam from leaving the country he called the Justice Department and said under no circumstances is this man allowed to leave some time he. So when he flew back from D.C. to Los Angeles he was met with somebody at immigration said you are not forbidden. You are now forbidden to

leave the confines of Los Angeles County. But at the very same time this is something that Dr Sian had not realized would happen and the the people at the Customs Department had seized his luggage and when they opened it up they discovered eighteen hundred pounds of technical papers. And they called a press conference and claimed that these were code books. And you know classified documents and and the media just went on a feeding frenzy they thought that he was a potential spy. And as it later turned out the documents were were mostly non-classified and many were papers he had written himself. It's I mean the code books turned out to be logarithmic tables but that was the beginning of you know five years of a suspicion for Dr. CN because. The

INS decided at that point that he was a Communist and that he was was subject therefore to deprecation under you know the last time for being a birth of alien and at the same time the Department of Defense was determined to keep him here so we had two different areas government working you know against each other. So he was under an order to deport Haitian and in order to not leave you know that's absolutely correct. So he was just in limbo for five years and in fact he spent two weeks in San Pedro he was actually locked up in it. A detention center of the ainus Terminal Island during this hour focused 580 We're talking with Iris Chang. She's the author of a very interesting book entitled thread of the silk worm. It's published by Basic Books and the story of Dr. CN Hugh Chin who was the father of the Chinese missile program prior to that very important figure in the

United States missile program and one of the founders of the space age here in United States. As we talk if you have questions comments you can call us the number around Champaign-Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. And toll free anywhere you're listening 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Those are the numbers. Well I was as you were saying a doctor's Young was locked up for a couple of weeks in an INS detention that's on her right. And this must have been quite humiliating for him that's right specially for someone as proud as a doctor at CNN and immediately after his release he was. It's actually subject to deportation hearings. This is not something that anyone expected people thought the matter would be cleared up after they determined that there was nothing classified in his luggage. But oddly enough they actually started to push for his deprecation and he was forced to get an attorney. Grant Cooper and to fight these things. Now what they did during

these deprecation hearings was to parade in a series of people who were members former members of the Communist cell. And interestingly enough people many people didn't really remember doctored CNN as being in the meetings that all a treasure or didn't remember collecting any dues from him. Nobody could find any concrete evidence that he had ever been a member. Most people thought he wasn't. The only other dence they had was that of two police officers who had infiltrated the cell. And but they never had an actual copy of membership lists. They had copied the membership list by hand so we just had the list in the cop's handwriting but it was not clear whether the actual membership lists or if they were just lists of people the Communist Party wanted to recruit. There was overwhelming evidence I thought that Dr Sam was probably never a communist. But the hearing INS hearing is not like a court of law

the alien does not have as many rights and any kind of hearsay and rumor could be used against him. And as a result of these hearings during which doctors see and fought very very hard to stay in the U.S. dying that he was never a communist he was actually deported. I mean he was he was deported to a country that ironically enough was hostile to the U.S. and to a country where he would end up building their missile program. It's interesting too to realize that the people who were involved in this deportation process now maybe you know the INS officials didn't fully understand the implications of what they were doing. But some level certainly within the Defense Department and all the way up to it turns out President Eisenhower they realized you know what the what they were doing in the significance of deporting one of the top missile scientists little homages China.

You know one is tempted to ask what were they thinking but I guess you know this was it was partly political There were some negotiations going on at the time it's right to exchange prisoners with with you know some of the U.S. prisoners in China. How did that all come about. Well Doctor CNN was was didn't know what at the time that he would become a political pawn in the exchange of prisoners after the Korean War. The decision to deport him actually went all the way up to Eisenhower's you mentioned. In 1955 our ambassador you Alexis Johnson negotiated with the Chinese Ambassador Wang ping on in Geneva actually to discuss the fate of Dr. CN and several other Chinese scientists who were in similar situations where they had really been left stranded in the United States after the fall of China and what the Americans wanted at the time was the return of these two pilots who had been

shot down you know during the Korean War and were now held in captivity in the People's Republic of China and other prisoners than what the Chinese wanted really was not so much there. President you know the U.S. prisoners of war they wanted the Chinese scientists who were stranded in the U.S. and doctored CM's name was actually I think the only name of the Chinese scientist who was mentioned specifically during these negotiations. And he really was you know a pretty hot topic for debate as it turned out doctored CNN had secretly been able to communicate with the top levels of government by writing on a piece of cardboard that he had that he wanted to go back to China by this time he was sick of what the United States had done you know to keep him and for us for five years in limbo. And he had

had kind of dropped that in the mail and that was eventually smuggled into to China and. And reached I think some of the top officials in the PRC at the time. So this was actually used as evidence that Dr. CN was in one thousand five fifty five eager to go back to China which was actually not the case for his early earlier years. You know like 950 253 when he was fighting the INS to stay in the U.S. and as a result the decision was announced that he was free to leave. And. But it wasn't that simple he wasn't just release he was really forced to go he left under a voluntary order of deprecation. I wonder if we should also say at this point that he was married and had two children. That's correct. He had made a trip back to China a few years previous to this whole. That's right to marry a woman he had known since childhood and the

daughter of one of the top military strategic of junk Sheykh the nationalist. That's right right right so that communism has that place. So that was more evidence really that doctored CN was really not a communist because he was really marrying somebody who was came from this aristocratic national Stanley. But you know I think at the time we really should emphasize that whether or not Dr CM was a Communist or not is irrelevant. Either way he should not have been permitted to leave this country I mean if he had been a spy then he could have been kept in the United States safely in prison. But it's clear to me at least that he was not to use probably not even a communist and yet he was in this ridiculous situation of having to be you know held you know in captivity and then eventually you know swapped for some pilots and put in a situation where he would eventually build up the

Chinese missile program. I'd like to quote some people who talked about doctored since deputation and just how important they felt that this meant for the Chinese. Dan Kimball the former undersecretary of the Navy under President Truman once said I'd rather shoot that guys and let him out of this country. He knows too much that is valuable to us. He's worth five visions anywhere. His Attorney Grant Cooper. He said that this government permitted this genius this scientific genius to be sent to communist China to pick his brains is one of the tragedies of the century. Arthur C. Clarke in his novel 2010 Odyssey two wrote CN contributed greatly to the American rocket research through the 1940s. Later in one of the most disgraceful episodes of the McCarthy period he was arrested on trumped up security charges when he wished to return to his native country. His story at that time was pretty well known and there were people who were extremely angry

at his deputation and people at the last minute were trying to fight it but there was really nothing they could do. And I at the time doctor at CNN at Cal Tech himself I think was uncomfortable and confused about his future. But there really was no choice about it he really would have to go back to China. I think we have a caller and we'll go ahead include them we have just about maybe 10 or 12 minutes left so I want to try to there's a lot of ground yet to cover. Well Mexico who are color on number four from Spring Valley. Good morning you're on focus 580. You know I've been listening to the crowd here my dear lady and I'm just baffled. The contradictory failing in this country. What happens if you're just trying out where an all white jury declared five police Iraqi

police to be not guilty even to the point. Even Dave I sent us. And then everybody agreed that the justice system guys to get in your system and when it happens and just some some trying out that one of them happened to be black dismisses the case against him as not guilty and there is something the judge since I'm just the system so it looks like Wants to the system to work to up for them. Only I'm saying it is because he is a gentleman doctor sunrise or scientist and who had to act and hour and then he was degraded and farted dismissed but if. Right you know you would have been given credit credit trite and baffling contradiction of thought in America.

One nation indivisible. But there is never good in just a moment. When are we going to lever up to our creed of the color has an interesting point. What do you think about that. Well I would definitely say that racism was one aspect of the deputation of Dr. CN at the time I think that the Chinese-American community was not as powerful. I was I was amazed that there was no outcry from the Chinese-American community when he was deported and there is something else I'd like to mention the caller had compared this to the O.J. Simpson trial. In this time and age when the American media has been repeatedly criticized for its ruthless and intrusive reporting tactics I would say that that Sienna fair illustrates the dangers and potential consequences of a passive media because. Doctor CNN when he was arrested and put in

San Pedro the local newspapers had parroted sensational claims of this ambitious U.S. Customs agent but later when the officials determined the doctor did not violate any laws. The news was buried in the back the papers and I think that the journals during the 1950s really failed to conduct an independent investigation to see an affair when he was arrested or when he was about to be deported from the country. Investigations that might have halted the bureaucratic machinery that forced him out of the country. I think that if that S.M. case were to occur today things would have been different and that there definitely would have been follow up stories. I mean I don't think a single reporter even tried to talk to a doctor at CNN during you know the period of his you know of the deputation hearings except for what they reported in the hearings themselves. We have just about 10 minutes left with our with Chang author of the book thread of the silk worm. The story of doctors again. And it has a lot of ground to

cover so I want to ask you to talk a little bit about when he returned to China. Doctors again received very much a hero's welcome. Absolutely. He was seen at banquets with milestone he was congratulated by Dylan lie. He in fact I believe it was still in law who said that. That the one Johnson talks were valuable for only one reason alone and that was to win back doctor who shun he mediately became a consultant for some of the top leaders in China and one of the most important things that he did contribute to China was that he gave the government confidence to proceed with the missile program and he also. I was capable too of creating an organization one year after his return in one thousand fifty six. He was became the director and founder of the fifth Academy which was China's first ments missile Institute and there he oversaw the development of China's

first generation of nuclear missiles. The don't fall east when Ceres and over the next few decades he ended up proposing and guiding the development of several other important projects in the Chinese space program such as the first artificial Chinese satellite the infamous silk or missile tracking control to tell metry network for intercontinental ballistic missiles. So his. His role was not only symbolic but it was also concrete and practical. Time is a very interesting story what happened to Dr Theo when he returned to China and. You know China was in the throes of great change. You know the Cultural Revolution was just around the corner. And he. It's very odd that this man who was such an intellectually rigorous person such a person demanding of logic and competence and improve and everything that goes

along with with a mathematician and a side who demands the radical rigor then became caught up in this sort of national insanity plea. That was what surprised me when I did research on the Dr. Sam book I really had not anticipated the changes in his personality over time. When I first tackled the project I thought that perhaps Dr. CN would become the victim or would have become the victim of the numerous political purges. Because at the time he was in Caltech he was a political he was not good at politics at all. He was uncompromising in his principles. You know he was not the kind of person who would be easily swayed by you know slogan chanting and so on. But I noticed that during the various campaigns in. And China such as like the hundred flowers campaign the Great Leap Forward the Cultural Revolution. He would change in fact become

slowly. Corrupted by the system to the point where you know in just recent years he is now considered more of a pull politician than a scientist a mouthpiece for the regime that's currently in power. Well there's an interesting story that you till in the book in the book is full of interesting stories but about the cultural revolution and you know Dr. Sian's possible role in the disastrous changes only during honey during the Great Leap for great leap forward. Well I'll discuss this briefly I know were we only have a few minutes left but during the Great Leap Forward China was attempting to catapult itself into the modern age. The government was determined to launch a Sputnik like the Soviets. They wanted to increase steel production surpassing that of England and even the U.S. and it was a time of frenzy and

wild fantasy I would say under Mao's leadership. This was a time when they actually melted down millions of pots and pans in. Iron in furnaces in order to increase their steel production in backyard for an back yard for instance that is correct. This is also an error which is that the Chinese were determined to stamp out for pests what is I think flies mosquitoes sparrows I forget the fourth one but Dr C and soon found himself you know on his hands and knees there digging up fly larva and you know trying to to fulfill Mao's you know determination to to rid the country of these pests. Despite the ecological consequences and it was during this time that Dr Stan wrote a very controversial article for a magazine called I think science for the masses. Jonah Nineteen fifty eight which he

wrote that it was theoretically possible for the agricultural workers to increase their yield by a factor of 30. It was all very vague but I think just it it gave. It was later credited for giving Mao the justification for proceeding with some of these insane agricultural policies which probably we don't have too much time for when forms and so forth. That's that's right. Actually at the time not much farmwork was really being done people were busy melting down the pots and pans and and there was incredible food wastage but it was at the same time propaganda was spreading about people being able to do anything under this wildly optimistic age. You know since they were there were reports of pumpkins as large

houses and and you know it's there I think the Riva pictures of of crops that were so thick of with wheat the children were jumping on it. You know I believe that was a doctored photo or they had actually transplanted all the wheat in one concentrated area. And so he what people would doctor see and did was he gave CNN science and he gave mouth scientific justification for some of these policies. And so people have blamed him for the famine that ensued. And you'd really have to I think read my book to get you know more of a kind of feeling for exactly what happened. Well it was what it was the worst famine in recorded history is yes and millions died. Yeah. And to this day I mean when you talk to people you went to China. We didn't get a chance to really talk about your work in putting this together but. What do people tell you it is this is this something that people remembered years later him for is that what he's perhaps even best known for him for a lot for a lot of people.

You mean this article yeah in his death only this came up numerous times when I interviewed people. But I was very surprised when I went to China I wasn't sure if people would be cooperative or not but they were. But there have been a lot of changes and people were not afraid to talk to me no one objected to my use of a tape recorder. Everyone spoke out freely in this range from people who had gone to high school to see into some of his former students and colleagues. The missile program and they were all very open and didn't mind if I quoted them. These are names but by far the greatest criticism watched against him was the article and other things to other changes in his personality. During the last few decades. Well I'm afraid we're probably going to have to leave it at that since we're at the end of the time there's no way we cover the remaining stories contained in this book. All I can say is for people who are interested in the story of a doctor. You can look for the book

thread of the silk worm and the author Iris Chang our guest. The book is published by Basic Books and one of the thing I should have mentioned earlier you're going to be doing a book signing. That's correct. Tonight seven o'clock pages for all ages and champagne that's right. So seven pages for all ages. Iris Chang will be signing copies of a book and you can meet her and then if you'd like to attend it's open to the public. So we'll have to leave it there I was I want to thank you very much for taking Thank you so much for inviting me to a show.