Focus 580; Interview with Author Jean Auel

This is focused 580 on telephone talk program my name is David inch. Good morning welcome back for the second hour of the show this morning. We are pleased to have with us Gina. She is the author of a series of best selling novels about the early history of humankind. Her first book was the Clan of the cave bear that was published in one thousand eighty. That was followed by the Valley of the horses the mammoth hunters and her most recent book which was published last year is entitled The Plains of passage. Her first three books have sold more than five million copies each in the United States and in Canada they're published in 22 foreign additions. Her newest book is doing equally well and she is now working on a fifth volume and in what is planned as a six part series. As you may know her first book Clan of the Cave Bear was made into a major motion picture as a matter fact I was told it was just on cable just recently she's sneering so I may have to ask her about that. Her books concentrate mostly on the story of a woman named Ayla who is separated from her people and her parents by an earthquake in the first book Clan of the Cave Bear and then she

comes to meet up with a group of people who are not like her who raise her and take care of her as she grows into adulthood and the subsequent books are about her travels in the landscape of Ice Age Europe. Her meeting with the man who becomes her mate and their search for the place that can really be their home. That's that is just a small part of what her stories are about. And you may be familiar with them they certainly have been very very popular especially I'm told on university campuses. They're popular with college kids. If you would like to talk with us as we talk about. Her writing you can certainly pick up the telephone and give us a call. We'd also like you know by the way she is in Champaign Urbana to give a talk in the Miller com series. She'll talk about her writing this evening at eight o'clock in the foaling or auditorium on the U of I campus and that is free and open to anyone who would like to attend. But she is also going to be doing a book signing this afternoon from two to four at the university YWCA

which is very close to our studios here on Wright Street. So if you would like to meet her you can do that. Thank you very much for coming to talk with. Thank you for having me. This is great. Perhaps I should give my telephone number here again it's locally three three three W I L L and toll free 800 1:58 W while if you'd like to call in. Well one was certainly when you take a look at your books it becomes very obvious that you have done a good deal of research on these people that you write about. And there is tremendous detail about all aspects of their lives and the kinds of objects that they made and used and how they hunted and what they ate and their religious practices and just the tremendous wealth of stuff something that I'm interested in hearing you talk about is something that is not so concrete. It's not something you can go to a museum and look at. And that is personality. Yes. And I suppose if one was of a mind to be critical

and I think maybe some people have raised this criticism they would say well. You get the other stuff right. But that what you have done is you've basically taken modern people and dressed them in. Absolutely and on purpose and with purpose of foresight because the whole point that I'm trying to make here is that people who lived in Upper Paleolithic Europe during the Ice Age the ones that we call them were modern people. They had the same kinds of emotional responses psychological reactions. Intelligence brains talents abilities. What was different is the world that they lived in. So there's no reason that those people would not have at some point in time considered. What the what was their purpose in being there. What was their reason for living. They would not have suffered over loves and

hates dreams ambitions hopes sorrows that's the whole point. I'm trying to show you that these people could have been your college roommate your neighbor's son your next door neighbor your friend. And the way that I'm doing that I mean I'm trying to get beyond the stereotype that these were somehow among the savages. Because even even an anthropologist will tell you today that the that the contemporary hunter gatherer societies that may still be left or that there were until recent times were far more complex far more modern in their sensibilities and we tend to think well how do we know that. What are the indications from the you know the physical record the things that we can see and touch that gives you some insight into what the inner life of these people was.

OK well first of all I have to say that we know from looking at their skeletons that they had exactly the things Delton's that we do with them we have to take a look at their physical culture. You take a look at the art and you take a look at the artifacts and you take a look at this and the many many things that. And when we're talking about for example Eastern Europe which the Manhunters was set in that's the beginning of the plains of passage that's where they start from. There's there's interesting kinds of things that you can look at. You can look at the way that they constructed their houses. OK now they lived in what was essentially a treeless open plain grassy plains. Right. So you're looking at. And they were huge what they call megafauna mammoths and various other animals and their bones would oftentimes accumulate in places you know they would get washed away in the spring floods or whatever. And when when they would die natural deaths very often sometimes they hunted them but a lot of times the bones would accumulate at certain bends of the river and the people often built their houses

near their home because they use those bones as the construction materials as the as the framing if you will. But they not only just used them in a haphazard way. Places like Meza Richen magazine show for example the lower mandible you know the mandible the lower jaw the mammoth which is this V shaped bone and they and they were found you know with one of them stacked on top of another and showing this sort of a of a what we call a chevron In other words you know. The shape thing when then another one on top of that like oh yeah and and then they might have one next to it that was stacked in the same way or maybe upside down so you get the zigzag effect. And there was a very very much a design concept we're talking about the beginnings of Arc of architecture here. You take a look at the fact that they had. Usually these structures were in a settlement kind of I mean these were not totally nomadic people.

And you can find artwork you can find carving and you can find art that is oftentimes what we would call contemporary modern art. Some of that is very very representation under good some of the figurines are like you find figurines of women bird shapes. They look like theyre transforming. You know you can look at that and say why would somebody think of that was a very modern kind of concept. But I suppose with all of the things that you can find in the know you know that theyre human. Take a look at burials and you can see all kinds of grave goods. One of the things I suppose that I would ask you is what would make you think that they're not. I mean what have you learned in your lifetime that would make you think that these were somehow less modern than if they are if they are totally modern in their and their physical skeleton. Why would you think that they're less. And I think it's because we are still indoctrinated with that 19th century Victorian

antiquarian theory that somehow these people were some kind of a missing link and we can't get beyond that. We're talking this morning with author Jean Al author of a number of books. Her first of the Clan of the Cave Bear and the others in a series they're called is it Earth installed in the center of the newest one is the plains a passage that just came out last year. She's here in Champaign Urbana to talk about her writing and would be very happy to talk with you to have one person here will get right to you and others if you're out there you'd like to call in talk with our guest. Please do. Dial the number 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 that's the local number toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5. Well here's someone to talk with on our toll free line. Hello good morning. I have a question that perplexed me for some time. OK. The news about Iran when they had overcome you know the Iraqis they are

there with an American troop carrier summit stopped and was talking to a shepherd by the Euphrates River. The man didn't even know who they were where America was or even that there was a war going on it was more than comical it was so odd that all this would be happening and he would have no knowledge of it. But the thought struck me as they have so often with people like this this man is living as he has probably lived for five or six seven thousand years not a single change in his life technologically. And I was wondering you know in your studies have you ever pondered that reason why certain people never advance and I mean that strictly in a technological sense I know. Any worthwhile value that we have why are they right. Why is it that the culture of the neighbors right next to one another for thousands of years and one like Northern European shoot so far ahead in the technological front and a few hundred miles to the south they will be literally living

as they live in. Anyway when man first emerged. Well I can only make guesses. You know those are those are very fascinating interesting almost philosophical questions and I can make some guesses and probably a lot of it has to do with communication has to do with interaction has to do with the culture that they have evolved in and whether or not their culture fosters interaction with people who are nearby. It is a very interesting concept and when you say five or six thousand years that seems like a long time to us. But when you're talking about human evolution you really have to take it much longer than that. Though the people I'm writing about are probably somewhere 25 35000 years ago and I'm not specifying But you know earliest hominids evolved somewhere around 4 million. And that's where you really begin to see some interesting things when you talk about unchanging.

One of the things that came home to me this summer I spent three and a half months in France looking around where the were the Dordogne your region where the painted caves are and so on and even spent a week at a dig which was kind of interesting and very enlightening for me. But at the the site next to the one the one that they had just finished digging out a couple of years back they had actually found Neanderthal remains dating back to about 300000 years in France. And at another site they're sort of going back and re-evaluating and Re Dating and re checking the site and they're finding out that apparently the Neanderthal were very very unchanging for something like. I mean there to finding what they would call classic Neanderthal tools going back 250 to 300 thousand years. I'm not even sure if this is published yet but this is was hopefully posted go who's the one who is in charge of it was talking about. And so if you're asking about

unchanging times of course I suspect that that's what Stephen Gould what prompted Stephen Gould to come up with this punctuated equilibrium theory but I think that if things are going along fine you don't have a tendency to change. If you've been a couple summers ago we were down in southern France to care for you. Yeah there's a little town of Van grove and that right there going on up and out there and the other schools up and running it. But man we were talking to said that they expected the day to go to 500. It probably we're looking at Homo erectus probably looking somewhat somewhat earlier than Neanderthal though. That again the trend those transitions are difficult to date and when did we change when when did modern humans evolve. Well that question's sort of being popped around right now. When was there a change from home Homo erectus to Neanderthal. Well those those dates are still up for question.

Well are you suggesting that there are between these groups of people that I call neighbors that there is actually a different human. No no not today I'm just saying there's a difference in culture. I'm not suggesting anymore that right there is any difference in basic. In human qualities and so on I'm saying there's a different culture. Let me ask you this in your story you look at northern Europe. Europeans Yes they being such as you heard in Hungary or maybe as the pioneers in a sense are me. Let me talk about the common yawn. We're talking about the people who moved into the country from some other place generally speaking So probably from the east. And so I you know I have almost a sensitivity of the early pioneers as much as the Native Americans. But the technology technology this structure was similar to what we well

the technology is a technology that we can be fairly certain. Were you to take a voodoo route and take Earth thousand generations at what point do we see what we see 8. Think change we say this is what we would look back you know they went with the beat that person is compared to the early book a modern person at what point would have I'm not sure if I understand what you mean about point did was is there a physical change in the body. No it's to me as I read through history that there suddenly appeared what I would call a modern. For example I would consider that a record army. You're talking about then the change from hunter gatherer society right into. The beginnings of agriculture for example the Neolithic life from the Paleolithic to the right point in time. Well it depends it's somewhere between seven and ten thousand. It depends upon what part of the of the

world you're talking about you talk about domestication of plants are you talking about domestication of animals and my own guess of that of course is that was about the time that the ice really fully receded from the last ice age. At 10 11 12 thousand years ago and that was when suddenly the climate was so different in the way you know when we were an ice age society has a very rich easy to hunt in kind of world and has a broad grassy plains and it fed uncounted numbers of herds of animals. There were a lot of changes as the ice receded and some of those changes were very very difficult. Going through some some really people moved in they moved south and north and so on. But that probably those pressures at that time may have been what it's my guess that may have been what accounted for the beginnings of Agriculture. And they certainly knew if their hunter gatherers somebodies plant picking plants

than they are actually knowing at what stage they're edible and at what stage they're planted and what's going on so they actually knew a lot more about them. I mean he wouldn't start planting wheat if you hadn't been eating it already. That's very well thank you and by the way you thank you thank you for that thank you. We have a couple of other people who will get right to them. Do you I'm interested in in this idea that you know this idea that maybe an important shaping force in advancing humankind is the willingness to to do something different and to accept change. And we probably all know people who are really good at that it's people who have people who are. Do you think do you think that that is you know if if you were going to make up a list of defining characteristics of of modern humankind would that be an important That would certainly be because if you take a look at the differences between modern humans what you call Homo Sapiens Sapiens you know wise

and wise manner of course mean names. Yes right. As as opposed to homo sapiens neanderthalensis which is the Neanderthal which is my clan is based upon. The differences are really not the ones that we think of. I mean Neanderthal was just as upright as we do. They had a cranial capacity that was on average larger than ours. They were probably physically stronger by three or four times at least according to our triggers and some others who've studied the physical bodies. They had a manual dexterity is at least as good as ours. I mean the same as ours there was no question there. The difference is that you find that there was not as much change. I find this very almost resistance to change. And when you know if you look at ourselves if we've been around ok since modern descent since Europe maybe at the earliest about 40000 and now they're beginning to find evidence is perhaps going back as far as 90000 and in Israel.

And if border cave is effective then may be if this very controversial dating of a hundred and twenty thousand. But that's you know we're really getting controversy we're saying possibly modern humans have been around I think the outsider saying 200000 moving up out of Africa maybe. But what we're seeing in the difference is that number one for as long as we've been around. At least since Europe OK 40000 years ago we have effectively changed the face of the earth we seem to be a people who don't so much adapt to our society and our culture and our world as to make our physical world adapt to us. So we find this tremendous I mean what are we in forty thousand years we have gone from hunting gathering societies to agriculture cities to technological advances that no one I mean we've traveled. We take pictures of Saturn you know for good or bad we've changed the face of our earth. That's one of the things the other the other thing that's interesting and

right along with that is there's no evidence of art before modern humans there's no evidence of art. And I find that a fascinating definitive difference if you can find evidence of compassion because you can find people like my character of Crabbe was based on an ANDA tall skeleton that was blind in one eye and had an arm amputated. You can find evidence of burial. You know also they must be thinking you know where we go and where we coming from you know or at least the possibility is there that they were thinking. There is one case that some people have doubted but I have talked to Relf selectee who actually found the site in Iraq as a matter of fact. Flowers in a grave. And they did it by pollen analysis of course and the flowers have an interesting similarity that the things they have in common is that they tend to be rather showy flowers and that today they have known medicinal values

so you know you can you can draw wonderful speculations from that. But there's no evidence of art and all this and there's I mean if they did it they did it on perishable goods. And when we came into the into the coming out of the modern human. Suddenly we find evidence of art we find and of course that. Makes you realize that the same kind of abstracting that you have to do for art is similar to language in it's fullest. It's not that they may not have communicated Neanderthals but if if it was in the same way that we do we don't know. We have several people here who would like to talk with you let me reintroduce. For those of you who may have just joined us we're talking this morning with author Gina hall author of Clan of the Cave Bear Valley of the horses the mammoth hunters and her most recent book is the plains of passage. She'll be giving a talk about her writing as part of the series tonight on the campus at 8:00 in the foaling or auditorium. So if you would like to

attend it's open to the public anybody can go. And she will also be doing a book signing this afternoon at the university YWCA 1001 South Wright Street in Champaign that's also on the campus. This is co-sponsored by the Y W and the Jane Adams bookshop so you'll have an opportunity to meet Now this afternoon and you can call in here this morning if you have questions for us. The lines are full but let me give you the number again it's three three three W. while toll free 800 to 2 2 W while the next caller here. Line number one. Oh yes. Yes go ahead. The question that you started talking about just now the different some of the differences and similarities with the Neanderthal than the chrome on your own and one of the things that fascinated me in the clan of the Cave Bear was what I assume were speculations and I'm beginning to see how you got work that worked into those on the difference in mental differences between the two groups and the speech versus the

fine communication. And what was really interesting was how did you think up the idea of the memory because of the racial memories. Yeah well actually what was happening is that I was finding that there were so many similarities. And between ourselves and the Neanderthals and and yet her differences you know if you take a look at that Neanderthal skull. And I've seen one you know compared with side by side with a skull of a modern human and it's huge it's huge. And not only is a cranial capacity larger but this is just the thickness of the bone is much is much thicker. And it was shaped differently there were less frontal lobes and there was this tremendous capacity in the rear of the brain and I was thinking why you know why is it developed that way. And it what really started out was that you know somewhere in the back of my brain I think I remember I mean how many times have you said that or heard somebody say that you know. And I thought wait a minute. Well

and then of course there is this wonderful thing that novelists do it's called What If. You know and I began to sort of put the pieces together and it was a long evolved kind of a thing before I came to it. But every time I would compare it with what we know about the Neanderthal culture it did not do a great disservice. I mean it did not I mean I I expected to get a tremendous amount of flak from the scientific community. And basically they say well it's pretty much off the wall. But most of it does make an interesting story. I have another question about the planning of the series did you start out and what. Sort of a rough outline that one would do this and book two would do that all up. I thought I was writing a short story and then it turned into a novel and I thought it was going to be one big fat novel in six parts because once I got into the research and got my whole my whole excitement and my imagination was so fired up and I almost you know I kept thinking why don't we know this stuff.

Why do we have this misimpression Why do we think that somehow these people were or less complex did not have the same kinds of feelings and emotions and and yes that was was coming through to me and all the scientific material I mean is just just standing up and grabbing me and and I thought OK it's because it's not accessible because the scientific material is fairly dense and fairly dry and and turgid and that it needs to be told story. And how did you come to the subject altogether. Your guess is as good as mine. I mean it sincerely and actually what happened is that it just came it was one of those ideas that came to me one day and I had never written. I mean I'd written fic I'd written poetry had never written fiction and I was in between jobs I'd quit my job I had just gotten my MBA I was 40 years old. I was off to do great wonderful things in business and I had quit the job just kind of trying to decide what it is I wanted to do with my life and got this idea for a story and

that's what headed me off into the research and basically what happened is I sat down and then wrote what I thought was one moment that when I went back to look at it I realized that I didn't have one I had six so I do have that first rough draft of the novel is my outline for the whole six books. Well thank you very much you I'm glad we got distracted from the MBA. Thank you. Me too. Let's talk with somebody else here we go to line number to me. Yes my questions are not profound and the lady prior to me could you could have turned out to have turned on the radio for us thank the lady just prior to me. Got a lot of the answers I want. I just want to know how far along are we on number five. I've been still doing research and I would tell you that one of the things I'm doing right now for research is learning French. And the reason I'm learning French is because there's so much material that's only in French and it's not translated good. I just want to be funny. But before I'm gone I'll

try try. I want to get them done before I'm. Thank you so much. All right thank you know they call you're going to be here pretty soon you're going to have to start getting some honorary Ph.D.s or I have every show you do have I do have three yes. I'm I'm sorry. It's ok we'll probably get you some more about how that's an isolated branch. Let's go on here we'll go to the toll free line once again. Hello hello. Yes street recently person was describing Africa and he said the curse of Africa was the Garden of Eden compared to a very temperate zone Germany and Europe where they had to have their harvest before the frost warm clothing and shelter and just gave them leisure in the winter to develop technology. And that that was a reason a part of the world developed so much faster than the warmer climates of Africa.

That's a possibility especially if you're talking about technologically but I think then again you have to talk about socially too and the cultures in Africa and the cultures in Australia and the cultures the native cultures anyplace actually developed very very complex and interesting and fascinating. Internal and social cultures and we cannot say that just because we're technologically doing rocket ships that we're necessarily more intelligent. It's just a different way of a different place to put your emphasis that's so. Well it's interesting that the first immigrants were people in a temperate climate. Yeah it's right in that area here. But of course you know if you're talking about advances and you're looking at the hunting gathering societies even in America at the time if you start looking at some of the Aztecs and some of the you know the early south american know where it was warm and yet they had developed a very very

advanced culture which was then of course wiped out. We're talking about something in terms of history of no more than a couple thousand years difference. And I think that if there hadn't been that invasion the same kinds of things would have probably developed on this continent. Thank you. And I think for the CO what's going on here. Line 3 would be next. Hello hello. Hello. I am. A question actually a couple. First I want to say it again as everyone else that I really enjoyed all of your partner and I was wondering if you're saying it looks like through the books you're getting touching on the subject of the replacement of Neanderthal by chrome and John. I've read several books in the same genre. Yeah and one of the book Dance Of The Tiger explored that the replacement of the hybridization eventually you know sterility of the in a lot of what in your case what the clay out and the other

will something like that be be exploratory at that not well let me say that that's not something I've read contends Dance Of The Tiger and I found it a very interesting book especially since we were both sort of talking about the same point in his a book about a Neanderthal about a Cro-Magnon boy raised by a Neanderthal in minds of cro magnon girl raised by Neanderthals. I did. I do have to say that I found his particular theory when I really say I'm I'm not a scientist. I am an intelligent human being and when I write stories I have to make my characters move in a logical way and with motivation. And when I looked at his story which is really based was his scientific model that he was then developing into a novel. It just didn't work for me. And the reason that it didn't work for me was to first of all you know his his theory basically was that that yes the Neanderthal and the Cro-Magnon Croman Jaane were

able to to breed but that the offspring was sterile like a mule and his other the other part of his theory was based on the idea that a concept called neoteny which really means that as we become more evolved we look younger. In other words we probably resemble puppies more than adult dogs because puppies have round heads and flat noses and faces. And of course as they become adults. Hello hello hello I have a question. Actually a couple first I want to say it again as everyone else that I really enjoyed all of your partner and I was wondering if you're saying it looks like through the book you're getting it touching on the subject of the replacement of Neanderthal by chrome and John. I've read several books in the same genre. Yeah and one of the book Dance Of The Tiger explored that the replacement of the hybridization and eventually you know sterility of the

in a lot of what in your case what the the Klan and the other will something like that be the exploratory that well let me say that that's not something I've read contends Dance Of The Tiger and I found it a very interesting book especially since we were both sort of talking about the same point in his a book about a Neanderthal about a Cro-Magnon boy raised by a Neanderthal and minds a Cro-Magnon girl raised by Neanderthals. I did. I do have to say that I found his particular theory when I really you see I'm I'm not a scientist. I am an intelligent human being. And when I write stories I have to make my characters move in a logical way and with motivation. And when I looked at his story which is really based with his scientific model that he was then developing into a novel. It just didn't work for me. And the reason that it didn't work for me was to first of all you know his his theory basically was that that yes the

Neanderthal and the Cro-Magnon Croman Jaane were able to to breed but that the offspring was sterile like a mule and his other the other part of his theory was based on the idea that the. Concept called neoteny which really means that as we become more evolved we look younger. In other words we probably resemble puppies more than adult dogs because puppies have round heads and flat noses and faces. And of course as they become adult they become elongated that's kind of the conceptus is simplistic way of explaining and so his theory was really that the Neanderthal women saw all of these Cromagnon men who came in from another part of the world from the east of the South. His Neanderthal were blond chrome and yon were dark haired and dark skinned and he proposed that these Neanderthal women were so attracted to these neander these Cromagnon men

because they resemble babies because they were younger that therefore they basically ignored their own males and only wanted to mate with these Cromagnon males and the offspring were sterile and therefore that accounted for the demise of Neanderthal. I wanna start looking at this in just plain ordinary human common sense terms I'm saying. What are all these Neanderthal men doing while their women are only going off with these with these Cromagnon men and how are these Neanderthal women attracting all these Cromagnon men and what are all across Magnan women doing at that time and. And that women are not usually attracted to babyish looking men they're attracted to maturity not youth because they need something that's going to be helpful to them in the raising of their family and how long does it take before they figure out there aren't any grandchildren. I want to start putting human motivation into that Syria just doesn't work for me. Right so that doesn't you know but I but he did a lot of other interesting things in

his book and. I think the thing I liked best was that he made his black tiger. I also had trouble with a black tiger in a country that was basically either snowy or grassland and I thought that the black would not have been a very good color for camouflage but the Lions in the in the in the grassland tend to be very tawny colored so. So I had trouble with that too but. But I love the six toes and have six toes and he made his cat with six toes and I loved it. Here where sometimes kids have sex so it's with your characters. I was wondering well come to grips with her actual ability or probably I'm not telling you have to wait and see if her father knew her parent.

OK obviously you can see a direction we're heading yes OK thank you thank you very much. Thanks Michel. What do you think about the theory that in fact maybe the crow Mannion murdered all NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO I think it's far too simplistic. My thought is that probably it was very complex there were a lot of things that came into play. Some of that may have been very similar to what happened to the Native Americans in this continent when we were invaded when the new Europeans invaded that there was probably perhaps some disease perhaps some violence perhaps. Other kinds of things but there is a lot of interbreeding and that there was and I think that there's too much evidence particularly in Central Europe showing even as late as Neolithic cemeteries or skeletons that have what they call archaic characteristics and I've seen some of those in Czechoslovakia and and I think that there was and there was certainly a melding in that that the offspring were very much viable. All right let's talk with someone else. Lie number one. Hello.

Oh just a comment on your caller a moment ago who was speculating on reasons for civilization having developed in Germany in the north. He seems to have his facts wrong medicine or civilization first of Euphrates proper. America. Yes in tropical America. And there are traces of it of course in North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa. Yeah I'm afraid. He has a major problem with this problem. Well that is a that is a premise that people have tried to come up with before and very gratifying to us. European Yes of course I'm a grandma. Yeah thank you. Thank you for advice because somebody else here would do our toll free line again. Hello hello. Yes yes you're good. She's familiar with a book called The first in which I read in junior high school maybe 60 years ago.

I know I'm not but I have to tell you that I have been making a collection and I have a I have a nice little collection started of stories that have been written some time ago. About the evolution and about early humans. For example Jack London wrote one called before Adam which most people don't realize and there was actually a book written by. What is the name Johannes Jensen that won a Nobel prize in a series of three books called The Long Journey in the first one was called Fire and ice and that was about. But that was written like in one thousand twenty before orders not to been written in the 20s. Because you know I've read it maybe you're right. Very very true and of course it's been so much research done on a half century yet everything but I just wondered if you work for me right and I was wondering what you might read about it. Well I wish I were that's not one that I'm going to try to find it. It would be capital a capital B the first and then I mean it was very.

Thank you I appreciate that. Sorry Craig we have about 10 minutes left with you know and if you want to get to calling us like to talk with her please do take the opportunity. Three three three wy Hello. Eight hundred two two two W. while up. Do you think if somehow if if things might have been a little bit different in your life that you would in fact have been an anthropologist and scientifically. I love science and I have probably from the very beginning of course I was you know I was born in Chicago and actually I was from Illinois in the beginning. Moved to Oregon after I got married. And but basically I've always had an interest in science and there was a time when I said when you know I got married at 18 and grade and graduate when I graduate from high school and then had five kids and then I went back to college and I was 28 when I started and I thought I was going to be a physicist I was taking physics and math at math through differential equations

and and in physics and some electronics and so on and so forth and then I got off into this business thing and. But I've always been interested in science of one form or another and yes I think anthropology Americans are fascinating I'm doing it my way that's all. So something else I want to ask you I know again is when we've talked to you if you have done a lot of research and read very widely to get the knowledge you have you put in your books and I'm wondering if you're familiar with the work of Rhianna Eisler. Yes I have. I've met her a couple times. We have She's been on the program a couple of times by phone I have not met her personally but have been interested in the chalice and the blade jealous of the blade but she's interesting. I have a little trouble with some of her very you know because the area is that I am very familiar with is the area that I'm writing about and of course I know the general evolutionary theory because I have to know where my area fits you know and what is the scientific feeling about it all. I do find that I have a little trouble with some of her early when she makes in

her book and I read it. She has a little. She's not exactly entirely accurate with some of the facts but she's gotten it from places and I'm she's done her research and sometimes all of the sources especially the older sources are not so accurate. Be very careful with coppery dates anymore where you're doing research in this period. I think she's got an interesting theory. It's a has to do with the fact that the that basically it's only been in the last 5000 years that we became so warlike and that we can if we think about it come back to a more partnership sort of world. And I like it. I think it sounds good. I can't guarantee that there's that there I can't be certain that that's really the way it was but on the other hand there's a lot of evidence I think to indicate that things were were more equally structured in earlier times. That's something that that interest me just for to find out how

how you have thought about the whole business of relations between men and women and gender roles and how you think that these people work those things. Well you know I came up with them with a whole set of I was trying to in the beginning trying to come up with a kind of culture that's different from today's And. Of course we have a we have a patriarchal culture you know. And I started to really just look and I thought to myself What if this was you know I mean eat this time so long ago before people really feel even fully understood the male role in procreation. You know what kind of a culture would that evolve and we have to remember that even the so-called primitive which I don't even like that word but but the less technologically advanced peoples of today's world have just as long a history as we do. They've gone through as many changes as we have you know and we don't know as good as the one caller was saying we're talking about subsaharan Africa

and some of those ruins that are in that region. I just think that probably things were more equal in earlier days yes. OK let's talk to somebody else. Our toll free line again. Hello. Hello. Yeah I couldn't wait. Thank you. I didn't get the time. I teach it to you which is about 50 miles south. Can you give me again when she's signing books and what's going on. Sure I can I was then aware that this was going on I just was driving home to the farm and heard great. Well were you in the end everybody else I'll just mention again she's going to be giving up a miller talk. It's a very fine lecture series on this campus and that will be at 8:00 o'clock tonight in the foaling or auditorium which is on the south end of the quad for anybody who is familiar with the campus and it's free. Anybody who would like to go can and attend. And then they She's also doing a book signing this afternoon from 2 to

4 at the university YMCA which is set on right street south of one 1001 south right engine and into four. Yeah OK. Now the other thing if I don't make it up there. I'm an artist and I thought you know over the years of defending something that can be you going to drive there that I can. You can always send something however you do that. Yeah you could always send something if you have to look. You can send it by way of the publisher. And they always forward to me whole day through. Yeah but you have to make sure that you look at the address in the most recent book you know go into a bookstore whatever because they've moved and the people who are sending things to the address that's in the clan of the Cave Bear first books are getting them returned so you don't have to know that you look in the plains of passage if you want to look for the address. OK well thank you very much and this is great that you're doing. Thank you. I think that if I might Let's go and hear someone in one of our local lines

one number one. Hello how are you. I just like to say I really enjoyed your use of dreamers in the book the way that they got you to give an insight and advanced applied and sort of give clues as to what's coming ahead. Thank you. That's one of my particular. Thanks I really enjoyed your book. All right as we got back from around the family you know our good that's great. Well dreams I think that people I do. It's an interesting thing. I when I write the books I try to write them from the point of view that anything that's all cult anything that has to do with spiritualism of the shaman ism is very much understood that this is what those people of the characters in the story believe. And I oftentimes try to give a hint of why they might take something that that we perhaps know differently today and

then they might interpret it in another way. On the other hand I'm not sure that I have a total handle on that spiritual world and I think that the some of the the shamanistic practices may have insights that we don't even know about so while I have always tried to be very careful to keep the scientific element of it foremost. I'm sure the people who lived in those times certainly did have a spiritual sense and so that's one of the things that I've tried to do with. It. It adds so much depth to the story and the character that you get. Can we invoke Thank you. And not that that's really a wonderful thing. I'm really glad that you're here. Good. Thanks for the call. We had rather cry one more person here will go to our toll free line again. Hello. I wonder if your guest. I got in a little late. Golding The Inheritors. Oh yes oh yeah. What are you going to do.

Well I think that Golding Obviously William Golding is a fine and very wonderful writer. His book is No about what Forty five years ago that it was written. And he was writing about a period in time when when the ideas of who our early ancestors are have been changed since that time. And that in fact his character this sort of based on Neanderthal are still sort of walking around on all fours which was a theory that they had at one time. Nonetheless it's still a marvelous poignant moving story and it will never lose that no matter what. I'm very interested in the fact that look at me and I baby is gray going to be brought up by the mag and people at the end. I wonder if you know I know another book called The Gift of stone no doubt about it. Donate the end of the donate and then also I wonder if you've ever read Ridley Walker by hopen

No I haven't. It's very interesting because it goes to the other end of things when when everything is pretty much right and people are falling back and I'd be considered a kind of tone agent Tony. The question is What do you what is the very thing I'm going to you know Africa. What. Would his race be and what would he be like Lucy would she be necessarily black. But of course nobody knows you know what the skin color was but the chances are that if it's out of Africa that people may have been black. There is of course a Syria that as you moved into Northern Europe and you black skin does not absorb vitamin D as readily as fair skin and I think it's something like 10 minutes of sunlight on the face of the fair skinned person we only have enough vitamin D and you don't

store it so that there would have been a selective advantage in fairer skin. So that perhaps as people move north that may have accounted for it that's least one theory. There does seem to be generally a theory that people did move out of Africa and I don't know when there's a lot of controversy about whether it was only modern humans or whether it was way back in Homo erectus and and that's sort of up for grabs. We're at the point here we're going to have to stop I'm sorry to say we've we've used up all of our time is it really true by the way that as you travel around the country you meet little girls who are named you know less. Yes that people actually naming their children as your entered matter as wonderful. There was one signing in Santa Clara California where it was a two hour signing and there were five little girls between the ages of four months and seven years that their parents brought up it was and it says something about the popularity of here. Well I hope it's because they feel that the characters of the characteristics and the qualities of the character are something that they feel important.

Well again we will tell people that if you would like to hear more from Jean I'll be giving a talk on the UVA campus tonight at 8:00 in the foaling or auditorium. That's on the south end of the quad let me also mention a companion lecture which I have neglected here and I should not have. That will be given by a anthropologist who's part of the faculty here at the U of I have woman named Olga So for the best then that field I have to tell you all this so for it is acknowledged by the community anthropological archaeological community is the best when it comes to eastern and central Europe and we better say that because she is probably listening she'll be giving a companion talk talking about some of the scientific evidence about life in this period and this will be on Thursday of this week at noon at the Center for Advanced Study in the U of I campus which is at the 9th 12 west of Illinois. And again anybody who would like to attend that is certainly welcome to do that. Thank you very much for being here. It's been thank you so much this has been great.