American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Gov. John Patterson, 4 of 4

[INTERVIEWER]: But I want to- I want to just be back in that moment. I don't want to talk about "THE" Martin Luther King that has all these roads named after him in every city. But back then, you know, you're having all this trouble, you're governor -- what do you think when you hear, oh, now Martin Luther King is going to fly in? [JOHN PATTERSON]: Well, it was quite obvious to me at the time that he was coming in there to exacerbate the problem. He was a firebrand, ain't no question about that. And he could stir the emotions of people, and that's exact- [INTERVIEWER]: Yes, sir. We're talking about King. So, we'll just start over. So at this point, things aren't going good, and then you hear King's flying in. What'd you think about that? [JOHN PATTERSON]: Right. The situation down at the church was really deteriorating. [INTERVIEWER]: No, I want to talk about before the church. I'm sorry, just before- so before the church, we're not in the church yet. We're still kind of before, and things are bad. But then you hear Martin Luther King is coming to town. How did that make you feel?

[JOHN PATTERSON]: When I heard that King was coming to town and was going to be met by federal marshals at Dannelly Field, the municipal airport, and escorted into the church- And they did, they met him out there. About 20 of them, 4 or 5 carloads of marshals, came in with their lights and their sirens on, and brought him right in -- just like he was president of the United States. And pulls up to the church, and he goes in the church and sort of takes charge. And, of course, that really concerned me, because he was a spellbinder in those days, and he could get a crowd riled up quick. And that's exactly what was taking place down there. And it was a lot of possible trouble for us, him coming to town. That was going to make the matter worse, no question about that. And I didn't like it, but there wasn't anything I could do about it. [LAUGHTER] Course that's another reason why that Floyd- Floyd Mann and

Henry Graham, my Adjutant General, we began to lay plans. Lay plans that after dark, if it got dark and that thing got out of hand, if those marshals couldn't handle it -- and it didn't appear to us that they could handle it -- if the crowd got really unruly, then we should be ready. And we were ready, no question about it. We were ready. [INTERVIEWER]: I think at that point when King first comes in, I do believe that you said that you couldn't guarantee his safety. Why did you say that? [JOHN PATTERSON]: Well, I mean, he wouldn't go where we wanted him to go -- or do what we wanted him to do. I mean, how could you guarantee the safety of somebody like him that we didn't know- unless you had somebody traveling with him all the time and he wasn't about to allow that. Guarantee the safety of Martin Luther King in such a hotbed there that night when he came into town? Why you'd have been crazy to try to guarantee the safety. I mean we've done everything we could to have protected King and I think Floyd Mann did,didn't he. did use his people to guard King's house there, in Montgomery, he had a house there in Montgomery he had a house there. Right near this place in Florida, I think. and Floyd, I think

think Floyd did everything he could to look after King but to guarantee that nobody nobody would bother him? Why you couldn't do that. (ambient noise) [Interviewer] this is a little back from here: So when Siegenthaler comes in, [Interviewer] I want to go back, this this is a little back from from here: um When, when you- when, when Seigenthaler comes in, right, you and Mann and Seigenthaler devise a plan, right, to have the State Highway Patrol protect the Freedom Riders before they go to Montgomery, right? [JOHN PATTERSON]: Right. [Interviewer] You pledge that you would protect him, right? [Patterson] right. [Interviewer] What happened in Montgomery? [Patterson] Well in Montgomery we has assurance from L. B. Sullivan, the Commissioner of Public Safety who was in charge of the Montgomery Police Department, we had assurances from them that they would hold the thing themselves,

handle the thing themselves, that they didn't need no state help to maintain order in Montgomery, and,uh and they guaranteed that they'd do it but we didn't trust them because of the Birmingham situation. And we were ready just in case they didn't do it but we wanted to give them a chance to do their duty, and, but they didn't and we were ready and in the interim, the few minutes that it took to get control of the thing, several people got beat up including John Lewis. [Interviewer] The way it kind of worked was that, that, that, you would pledge your protection, so if you can explain this, if I can get this right, So Mann is protecting them on the highway then as they get to Montgomery Mann's people kind of fall back [Interviewee]: turn them over to the city of Montgomery who's, who promised us that they would protect 'em. him. [Interviewer] If you can just tell me that, that Mann had them protected on the highway

and then they fell back.. So tell me about that deal. [Interviewee]: We agreed to protect them from Birmingham to Montgomery on the highway and Floyd Mann had State Troopers leading them and following them and we had a State Trooper helicopter overhead protecting them from overhead and escorted him to the city limits of Montgomery where we turned them over to the city authorities of Montgomery who guaranteed to us that they would protect 'em and maintain order themselves at the bus station and, but we didn't trust them by then and so we, Floyd went on down to the bus station with a couple of his people and had a couple hundred of 'em more come in close by and we were ready just in case they didn't do it and they didn't do it. And they didn't do it. They did not do what they said they was going to do and by the time we were able to get in there and Floyd got in there with his and Floyd got in there with his pistol and straddled the people on the ground, I think Lewis might have straddled, and two or three of them got hurt. [Interviewer] Okay, so after, after, after um the church in Montgomery, just real quickly, so

at that point then you make a deal to protect the Freedom Riders to get them out of here and get them to Mississippi, at that point Is that because there was martial law? Talking about the deal to get them out finally from Alabama into into Mississippi [Patterson]. The Freedom Riders, their for the freedom writers or their desire was to catch a bus i'm going to mississippi and going to Jackson, I guess and so we undertook, with our ?inaudible? we had martial law in Montgomery, the streets were patrolled by jeeps and military people; we took over the city of Montgomery. And so they wanted to go on-, they wanted to go on to Mississippi and so they had a bus ready for them and so Floyd took charge of that whole thing, And we escorted them all the way with State troopers and the National Guardsmen, National Guard all the way to the Mississippi line and turned them over to the Mississippi

authorities. And then the thing was over. And then we began to lick our wounds. [Laughs] and ?Now that? we can laugh about that thing but it was not a funny matter. [Interviewer]: Did you have any idea what Mississippi was gonna do...[laughs] [Interviewee]: No, had no i- well I cared, yes of course. [Interviewer]: Did you have any idea ?inaudible? Did you have any idea of what Mississippi was gonna do?? [Interviewee]: No, you couldn't depend on what Ross Barnett was gonna do. Ross Barnett was something else. And he immediately put 'em all in jail. I mean we had no right to arrest 'em. Did we? [laughs] We had no right to arrest these people; they were not violating the law. They were trying to travel on a interstate bus. [Interviewer]: If you can, in in just in very brief terms um what would you say if that point in time - which ?inaudible? 1961, right? What was the difference between Alabama and Mississippi?

[Interviewee]: Well, uh, of course I like Mississippi and I like Mississippi people and always have. And I was friendly with Ross Barnett, but Ross Barnett ?inaudible? something else. Uh, He'd get up and make speeches ya know about uh if the Lord intended for a black man to be as good as a white man, he'd a made him white - this kinda stuff. ?You'd get up? and hear this kinda stuff, yeah. It was embarrassing. Ya know. uh Barnett uh [of] course with his Mississippi State- University of Mississippi thing, with a James Meredith, a a a a a bad situation. Mississippi was not as far along uh with its uh racial views as Alabama was, as was Georgia was much further along than we were; they had very little trouble here in Georgia. But Mississippi was sort of a different place in those days.

It was the home of the White Citizens Council, it was [a] pretty pretty big organization, and uh, Barnett was something else now. And I'm not surprised at what Barnett did. Now you you violate a fellow's rights when you arrest him without a warrant, ya know, and without any- why would you arrest him? How, how could legally arrest a fellow there on a bus and put him in jail? [Interviewer]: Breach of the peace; that was a law that they passed. [Interviewee]: Well, breach of the peace, you've got to do a- you have to have a affirmative act demonstrating a breach. Well, I mean sure, they didn't didn't have grounds to arrest them, there [was no] question about that. I'm surprised they didn't sue 'em. [Interviewer] I'm not try to to defend. [Interviewee] I'm surprised they didn't sue 'em, I really am. [Interviewer] I'm not try to to defend. [Interviewee] If I'd been on the bus and got arrested and thrown in a Mississippi jail, I'd be madder than hell, wouldn't you? [Interviewer]: One of the things that that somebody said was you know that that the difference was that that in Alabama you had this kind of unruly mobs that you had. But Mississippi was a police state. I mean, basically, Mississip[pi was

you know, um "we'll just arrest everybody." [Interviewee]: Apparently so. I mean in Alabama we had a deal with the klan, and the klan as ap- probably at that time it probably wasn't as many as five-thousand klansmen in the whole state of Alabama, and it was organized around an organization called I.G.O. - Independent Garage Owners Assoc- Organization. And this was Shelton's crowd, and over in a Robert Shelton, over in, the Grand Dragon, over in Tuscaloosa, and it was his crowd. These were the folks that was causin' us this trouble. And they probably all together in the whole state there probably wouldn't be more than five-thousand of 'em at that time. There all gone. We don't have anything thing like that nomore in Alabama. [Interviewer] But in Mississippi? [Interviewee] I don't know. whole mission is the

church you know he King put the blame squarely on your shoulders [Patterson] Right. [Interviewer]Did you create an atmosphere where violence could thrive? What is your response to that? [Patterson] Well, I, I don't think so. I, I think that he was more responsible for creating that atmosphere than me but there's enough blame to go around there's no question about that. The Freedom Riders coming to Alabama created atmosphere and the publicity that preceded them uh they're coming to test our laws and we got crazy [inaud] is test our laws and you got this kind of situation now um [laugh] there is enough blame to go around for everybody. We looked very bad nationally in regard to that thing. No question when when King had a right to come in when he did and had a right to go ?inaudible? that charge and he had a right to make a speech, and he had a right to accuse me, ?of?, but he was doing the same thing that- he was doing the same thing he was accusing me of doing. I was trying to put a lid on it, but he was trying to take the lid off of it. I understand it you know.

That's what they came for. The purpose of the whole thing was to put the publicity on it. Yeah and uh I guess to show the country that uh we still had segregated waiting rooms and restrooms and stuff like that. [Interviewer] So in some some ways, um, in some, in some some ways that the Freedom Riders couldn't have gotten better or more of what they wanted. [Patterson]: They got what they wanted. There['s] no question about that. They got what they wanted. Publicity. Publicity; uh, television, national television, photographs and things of of being arrested and mistreated by the Birmingham police department and things of this kind ?inaudible?. Burning of that bus; there's no excuse for the burning of that bus, there's no excuse for it. Of course, we couldn't have anticipated

somebody would burn a bus on a highway in Alabama, until, until it happened. We couldn't have anticipated. And uh, yeah, it uh all of that exacerbated that whole thing; they got what they they got what they came after: made us look bad, got got arrested and thrown in jail for riding a bus and using a restroom in a bus station, uh, going to a lunch counter, which they had a right to do, uh and we had, we had some crazy folks that uh, that, that wanted to beat 'em up for doing it. And trying to keep 'em apart and, and trying to you know not to have martial law and not to put everything under, under lock and key. We just, uh, looked bad in the process. But they got what they wanted, no question bout that. Look we're still talking about it. We're still talking about it. [Interviewer]: [laughs] Were you surprised, I mean you grew up in the South, you know, you're a southerner, um, were you- could you say that back then were you surprised at all by the venom and, and vehemence and the violence of

of the way people reacted to the Freedom Riders? [Interviewee]: Yeah, a little bit. I, I uh, I didn't grow up, didn't grow up in the South. I left when I was 18 years old, I finished high school and I joined the army in Columbus, Georgia before World War II, before the draft. And I was assigned to a New York unit, and I never really came back to Alabama, and I never really came back to Alabama until after six years later, when I got out of the army. I, I never came back. I was- I really grew up in other places in the North; I grew up in the North. I never had any problem, you know living and associated with black people; I served black troops, I've served with black officers. Uh, I never had any problems at all. And, and, and I don't consider myself a racist, I don't consider myself a segregationist, anything like that, I, and I preferred not to have that problem. I inherited the thing. I had, had the temerity to run for governor and get elected, and

inherited that something that I didn't even dream that I would ever inherit. [Interviewer]: ?inaudible? My question was at that point, ya know, when the bus burns, the riots in Birmingham - were you surprised by this ?inaudible? or did you think, well this is what the Freedom Riders ya know, they come down here, it's kinda premature, this is what they get. oh [or?] was it a bit of both? [Patterson]: If we- we didn't, we didn't predict this; we didn't th- believe this ?inaudible? We didn't think anybody would jump on a bus at the bus station in Huntsville and puncture the tires and stuff like that. We weren't prepared for this kinda thing. We didn't anticipate it. And then ?follow? it out town and set it on fire outside of Anniston? Why, nobody could've predicted that. We don't have a- we don't run a police state; we didn't run a police state then, you could come - supposed to be able come into Alabama and travel any where you wanted to. Yeah, but I didn't want to put the whole state under

martial law. And, ya know, that thing'll get old quick. And and uh, we just didn't anticipate that this would happen. We were naive I guess; I guess we were naive. We should have anticipated, uh, I knew some of the Klan's people and I, I, I, wouldn't when when you think you want and when you know barbara burn a bus on a, on a, on a public highway. [laughs] I, I, I know better now of course. [Interviewer] When, when, when you see it, when you see that, and you see the the riots, and you see the burning bus, you know you can't help but feel that, that it was lucky that people, people weren't killed. [Patterson] Some of them were hurt. [Interviewer] ..worse, I mean.. [Patterson] Some of them were hurt pretty badly. [Interviewer] Pretty bad but you feel like, you feel like wow, you know what I mean, what is amazing to me is that they they threw Molotov cocktails on the bus, burnt this bus, they were trying, they wanted to try and stop the people people from getting off. People coulda been killed. [Patterson] Right.

[Interviewer] It was about, where you sit on a bus. [Patterson] Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. [Interviewer] Yeah you know. [Patterson] Yeah. But you see if, if, if you were elected governor and and most of the people in the state and all the people in the legislature want it that way, uh then if you want to be governor you have you have, to deal with it like it is you know doing something about it was one thing, but the timing has to be right politically to get anything done. The timing might have been right to have gotten more people registered to vote. The timing was not right to end the segregation laws at that time. Particularly those in the schools. The timing was not right, there wan't anything I could do about that. Except live with it. And I would prefer that it had been settled long before I ever came on the scene then I wouldn't have had to fool with it. And I knew at the time, knew at the time we met, I knew at the time that legally we couldn't win. And I, I

think probably one of the reasons that prolonged this problem was the vagueness of Brown vs the Board of Education. [Interviewer] Yeah, I wanted to talk to you [Patterson] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [Interviewer] What do you, what was accomplished by the Freedom Riders? Was anything accomplished? What was accomplished? [Patterson] Well I think that this was this was part of the overall, uh, plan of the people who were trying to end these Jim Crow laws uh and the Freedom Riders played a part in it. Uh, I think that probably helped hasten uh, the ending of the of these, of these violations of a, of a, segre-, racial segregation in matters of interstate commerce.

This thing dealt with the um, the regulations in the bus stations and restrooms in bus stations and restaurants and lunch counters and bus stations. And and uh, I think this hastened the time when the federal government, the Justice Department began a crackdown on violations of those um, um, of the rights of people to use those facilities indiscriminately in interstate commerce. Now the the voting thing came along later on the Selma Bridge. I think that's what led directly to the passage of the Voting Rights Act of nineteen, nineteen sixty four that, that guaranteed to the people, to the black people of the South what Lincoln had guaranteed them in the Emancipation Proclamation. [Interviewer] Yup [inaud] [Patterson] And that changed and that

changed the South um, just almost, well overnight is not a good, in, in, in a matter of a few years uh, it's a different place this, this battle is over. People have the right to vote anywhere they want to vote. They have a right to vote in Alabama. That has brought along with it public improvements, better schools. We did away, did away with those segregated schools which, the black schools were inferior, no question about that. [Interviewer] I want to say cause we are really dealing with the Freedom Rider so so I think that that that you know [Patterson] I think the Freedom Rider is part of the whole, of the whole thing. It primarily deals with interstate travel and that regulation, interstate commerce regulations regarding a a non discriminatory travel matters, like the bus stations. We don't have, we don't have, this ended, this ended very quickly I think segregated bus stations, segregation on buses, uh

segregated lunch counters, all that, that ended all that. [Interviewer] Ok, cut, cut. [Interviewer] I'm good. [Patterson] It played a part. After all it it's important because we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it. Would we? Would we? It's been a long time ago. You realize how long [laughs] And I think probably if I had all over again I would play it differently. Maybe a little differently. I, I word of caution in the dark mind concerned about re-election you know. Imagine never worry about that. Go ahead and do your job, do it according to the law and worry about, don't worry about re-election. If you do a good job, people will re-elect you, you know. Of course, I didn't get re-elected anyway. [laughs] Got beat by George Wallace. [laughs] which brought it to an end. Brought most of it to an end. very quickly because of his involvement. [Interviewer] So when you said you were worried about re-election, what do you mean? What were you worried about? [Patterson] Well, I had in the back of my mind, that I wasn’t gonna be able to do everything I wanted to do in four years and I might run for reelection I was a pretty popular fellow there for a while.

And I had in the back of my mind that running for re-election and I would tailor what I was doing but with that idea in mind you know and that's not a good thing to do. Just do what you think is right, uh and then that'll take re-election will take care of itself. If you think about it all the time and try to tailor what you do in the light of getting re-elected then you are not going to do a good job, you're not gonna do a good job and you're gonna color what you're doing, the wrong way, you know. [Interviewer] How did that change what you did? [inaud] reelection. [Interviewer] I just want to be concrete, what did that change? [Patterson] Well, by the time that, uh, the time George ran George ran the next time, George Wallace, uh uh he he claimed, he ran, he was an arch segregationist he he got up and said things in public speeches uh supporting segregation

that I would've never said and I never did say anything like that, I mean, Jesus It was rough. And, uh, and what he did by doing that, I don't think he planned it that way, He invited invited, he invited action that ended segregation. When he, when he interfered with the integration by Judge Johnson's order of the Tuskegee High School, when he sent the state troopers over there that morning to block the Blacks from coming into the high school, Frank Johnson seized upon that as an opportunity to end uh segregation in all the public schools in Alabama with one stroke of the pen. [Interviewer] Now I understand I understand that [inaud] before but you were saying how fascinating to me about that you [Interviewer] You were too concerned about being re-elected [Patterson] Yeah. [Interviewer] Know what I mean. [Patterson] Yeah. [Interviewer] In concrete terms What do you mean? What? So you did what? You mean that you became..

[Patterson] I should I should have done what was really required to be done irrespective or irregardless of the attitudes of the people in the legislature as far as the racial matters were concerned. Yup. I didn't get get re-elected anyway so it wouldn't have hurt me none to have done what should've been done, yeah, I could have, it's always in In in in politics itself it's it's the you can only do those things if the time is politically right to do it. The time really wasn't right to do anything in the legislation of Alabama to change any of those laws. The time was right though to possibly change the registration of voters and I regret that I didn't put more emphasis and time on that. I'd have been unpopular but it wouldn't have made no difference. I was unpoplar anyway when the time came. Wallace

Walace uh he he ran a much stronger uh racial campaign than anybody has ever run in Alabama. Yeah [Interviewer] Ok. I wasn’t going to ask you this but [laughs] I got to. [Patterson] Yeah go ahead. [Interviewer] this is driving me crazy Wallace talks about the the election where where he won won and one of his famous quotes is “I’m never going to be out niggered again.” [Patterson] Yeah, that's exactly what he said. He denied it not later on and said he'd said he'd never be out ?seg'd? again. But he said he said, he used the n word. He was having a, he had set up a victory party, uh when we ran against each other. He'd set up a victory party at the uh Montgomery Advertiser. chair grover oh it was a big supporters in tuesday's paper to promote lot of tents And he was there that night to celebrate his victory.